Newest UK nannyism: EnviroCops

Deck Knight

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The brown-shirts may not be dead after all, they have merely changed clothes. Witness the newest police force in the United Kingdom, the "green-jackets."

TimesOnline said:
The boys in green are coming as the Environment Agency sets up a squad to police companies generating excessive CO2 emissions.

The agency is creating a unit of about 50 auditors and inspectors, complete with warrant cards and the power to search company premises to enforce the Carbon Reduction Commitment (CRC), which comes into effect next year.

Decked out in green jackets, the enforcers will be able to demand access to company property, view power meters, call up electricity and gas bills and examine carbon-trading records for an estimated 6,000 British businesses. Ed Mitchell, head of business performance and regulation at the Environment Agency, said the squad would help to bring emissions under control. “Climate change and CO2 are the world’s biggest issues right now. The Carbon Reduction Commitment is one of the ways in which Britain is responding.”

The formation of the green police overcomes a psychological hurdle in the battle against climate change. Ministers have long recognised the need to have new categories of taxes and criminal offences for CO2 emissions, but fear a repetition of the fuel tax protests in 2000 when lorry drivers blockaded refineries.
First it was the Fat Police, then the Smoking Nannies, now the EnviroCops.

"Saving the planet" is apparently the biggest issue in Britain right now. Not people losing jobs left and right in an economic downturn, not slashing wasteful government programs (this would in fact be creating one. A big one. With police powers.), and not creating an economic climate in which businesses can prosper.

No, serving the Altar of Gaia is the top priority for the Brits. They're just granting police powers to Enviro-cultists for your own good, you see. Anglicanism isn't the UK's main belief system anymore, Global Warming is.

I'm alarmist?

They are inventing a police force of whole cloth.
During an economic downturn.
Prefaced entirely on "saving the planet."
By levying fines on the CO2 emissions of businesses located on an island nation smaller than Texas.

This would be an absurd plot basis for a Monty Python sketch, nevermind an actual government program. The Ministry of Silly Walks (an actual Monty Python sketch, not a British agency) would be a less wasteful proposal.

It's not much different here in America, we have a cap-and-trade bill that just passed the House, and God help us if it passes the Senate. It's essentially an everything tax. When you raise the price of energy, the price of everything raises. Barack Obama himself said on the campaign trail that supporting his cap-and-trade system would make electricity rates "necessarily skyrocket." Here's a catchy visual aid for cap-and-trade.

Finally, just ask yourself this using the new Global Warming verbiage, "Climate Change": How is fighting Climate Change any different than fighting ocean tides? No matter how often or how hard you kick the water at the beach, the tide will still flow in and ebb out. So why is it considered remotely sensible to make it a government action (a proto-fascist one at that) to prevent the planet's entire climate from changing?

Would you believe it if someone told you they could make the ocean tides recede twelve inches if only you drastically cut back your lifestyle so the government could spend trillions of dollars to fight "Anthropogenic Excessive Tide Height?" They can't prove the tides are actually excessive, or that humans are causing it. Not a single one of their doomsaying models has come to pass or even been remotely accurate. They have been caught red-handed publishing fraudulent tide heights, and they've banned picnic lunches on the beach because the food crumbs might fall into the ocean and displace enough water to effect tide height negatively. Nor can they prove that higher tides are a categorically bad thing in and of themselves in exchange for all this wasted time, money, and liberty lost.

Global Warming is a cult. This is the only logical conclusion after seeing the effects of attacking its tenets. I have been threatened to be kicked for calling it alarmism, for Gaia Fanatics seem to believe that We Are All Doomed and Something Must Be Done. With SMBD usually being fascistic measures like the EnviroCops or some other onerous act of congress. It goes beyond a policy position to actively silencing critics and threatening dissenters.

Their fallback excuse for each incremental loss of freedom is that it's only one small step. One small step for incremental statism is one giant leap for statism proper. Their response to your suggestion they are full of nonsense is to talk about a (ever-dwindling) consensus among public grant recipients who agree with the government's foregone ACC conclusion or else they don't receive funding. Or just a simple "Shut Up." Or they try and obfuscate by asserting you oppose the premise "the Climate is Changing" when your actual argument is "Proto-Fascism is not justified just because you blame humanity for the climactic changes of the planet." They will always assert that the science is settled and the conclusions are foolproof. Then you go and ask an actual climatologist, not an Energy Agency hack, and they'll say the topic is still under rigorous (the comments, the OP is obviously in the tank) discussion.

I can tolerate that people believe in something as stupid, unfounded, and fraudulent as Anthropogenic Climate Change (of the kind that requires massive intrusion into daily life because otherwise WAAD and SMBD.). When that idiocy translates into expensive freedom-destroying measures like the EnviroCops, that's where I draw the line from polite tolerance to vehement opposition. I should not be forced to pay massive taxes and be told what I can and cannot buy, sell, or do by a bureaucratic nanny just because someone, somewhere has an irrational hangup about humanity's role in the environment. Have these genius ministers ever considered the carbon footprint of their new bureaucracy making house calls in armor-plated lowest-bidder SUVs? Of course not. That would require the foresight that ACC adherents lack in their haste to save the planet at all costs (to the consumer).

The only kind of people who claim they can save the planet are deities, con-men, and lunatics. Either the warmists believe they are gods, or they are easily duped suckers (taken in by a platitude of saving the planet on their behalf, no less), or they are just batshit insane. In either case, their unrelenting support of any program that would curb liberty, destroy economic prosperity, and install an Orwellian agency designed around saving you from yourself is an indication that they are a cult. Legitimate religions do not demand that you slit your wrists to save the earth. The EnviroCops are no different from The Spanish Inquisition, and unlike most totalitarians who will occasionally take a day off from absolute control over your every move, warmists truly believe they are altruists limiting you for your own protection. Thus they are the most menacing of all totalitarians. If you do not trust yourself to lead a responsible heart-healthy, planet-friendly, killing-spree devoid life, I do not trust you or anyone you elect to run mine.

The EnviroCops will be staying across the pond if I have anything to say about it.
 

monkfish

what are birds? we just don't know.
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good on them i say, environmental change needs enforcing - someone needs to counter the bush administration's oil-guzzling smoke-belching tree-chopping animal-killing rampage!

also loling at "warmists"
 
Although the title of the op's post seems to be intentionally trying to troll anyone who replies the actual content is spot on. I don't think that this is the way that the environment will be saved, the economy doesn't work that way and although I agree with deck knight on this issue I'm going to make a thread about why Americans fear socialism.

Thanks for the inspiration DK.
 
So, pointing out the fact that there is a scientific consensus that anthropogenic climate change is an exigent threat is being 'in the tank', but being on the payroll of special interest groups, like Robert Carter, the author of the Telegraph article, isn't? The razor doesn't slice both ways, it would seem.
 

monkfish

what are birds? we just don't know.
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before someone posts about luduan's source being wikipedia im gonna save yall the effort and post the references

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Deck Knight

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So, pointing out the fact that there is a scientific consensus that anthropogenic climate change is an exigent threat is being 'in the tank', but being on the payroll of special interest groups, like Robert Carter, the author of the Telegraph article, isn't? The razor doesn't slice both ways, it would seem.
This proves humans cause a substantial portion of ACC how?

This justifies the EnviroCops how?

Any idiot can look at plotted data and make a statement on the warming or cooling of the planet. If you can read a graph, making such a statement is easy. Linking humans to it (the A in ACC) is an entirely different matter.

And how does putting the government, the massive bureacracy that leaves a gigantic carbon footprint in its wake solve these concerns? The entire point of cap-and-trade and the Envirocops is to create a political favoritism system for government approved winners and losers. It will have zero impact on the climate, just like 800 billion dollars of Obama Crony Christmas Tree had no effect on the econmy.
 

jrrrrrrr

wubwubwub
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I'm just going to pick a few things that stood out to me, because your post does raise some legitimate points but they are ultimately lost in the ignorant diatribe that you filled the rest of your post with.

"Saving the planet" is apparently the biggest issue in Britain right now. Not people losing jobs left and right in an economic downturn, not slashing wasteful government programs (this would in fact be creating one. A big one. With police powers.), and not creating an economic climate in which businesses can prosper.
Did you ever stop to think that "saving the planet" is going to create more plentiful and efficient jobs in the long run? I'm not going to sit here and say that everything involving this is 100% great, but you denounced this without doing any research on the effects of business. Not every regulation harms businesses, as I'm sure you know.

No, serving the Altar of Gaia is the top priority for the Brits. They're just granting police powers to Enviro-cultists for your own good, you see. Anglicanism isn't the UK's main belief system anymore, Global Warming is.
Maybe if you stopped comparing science to religion, people would take your posts more seriously. Nobody is looking at climate change and saying "this is for my personal salvation". Not everything is either pro-God or anti-God. The reason why people are so hostile towards your posts is because you split everything into two groups, one of which is red that you applaud no matter what it tells you and everything else is blue which only seeks to destroy the principles of freedom so naturally it must be misguided. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe some things ARENT politically motivated? Maybe people are legitimately trying to do good for others at no benefit to themselves? I know that doesnt make sense from the true patriotic capitalist's point of view that you hold, but some people don't need to be threatened by permanent damnation before they start doing good.

Finally, just ask yourself this using the new Global Warming verbiage, "Climate Change":
Just wanted to get this out of the way: if you don't understand that carbon and other emissions that come directly from humans are threatening the climate and landscape of this planet then you are ignorant (or retarded, but I'm an optimist). Climate change is obviously happening, it is obviously going to be more of an issue if we continue at this pace.

The question with climate change isn't "is it happening?" (we have known this for several years now), it's "what can we do to stop it?".

How is fighting Climate Change any different than fighting ocean tides? No matter how often or how hard you kick the water at the beach, the tide will still flow in and ebb out.
Do you even read what you write? Let me give you a big list of reasons how they are different, off the top of my head:

- the tides are not a direct result of human pollution

- One person isn't enough to tackle the entire ocean. You basically just said "this problem is way too big for one person to fix, so we shouldn't even try to fix it". If you built a big ass wall with a bunch of people, the tide would be a lot easier to change now, wouldnt it?

- the climate does fluctuate, but there is no mechanism in place to reverse the pressure that we are constantly putting on the environment (analogy: there is a barrel of water with a small hole in the bottom. If you stop filling the barrel at some point, the water will drain out and return to equilibrium, but if you keep filling the barrel it will never empty. The climate does fluctuate naturally, but by continuing to emit what we are, we are essentially never letting the barrel empty out and return to a stable state. How can you expect the climate to just change back when we are doing everything in our power to prevent that?)

- There are perfectly legitimate ways of drastically reducing carbon emissions without even having to make an effort

- it is actually possible for one person to have an impact on climate change

So why is it considered remotely sensible to make it a government action (a proto-fascist one at that) to prevent the planet's entire climate from changing?
Because preventing the climate from changing much more is something that a government action can do, unlike having people line up to kick the tide. Stop setting up straw men and look at the problem at hand.
 
more ranting
That isn't the point; the point is that you pretend there is no scientific consensus and rave about environmentalist special interests while ignoring the blatantly conflicting interests of your own sources. My quibbles are with your methods of argumentation (on the rare occasions that any argumentation appears), not with the science. The scientific evidence speaks for itself, to those with an open mind and not a party line to tout, at least. Hell, even a good number of libertarians accept the scientific evidence for anthropogenic climate change, and for good reason: such models are the best scientists have at the moment for understanding the data. I have pointed out the flaws in climate change denial elsewhere and have no intentions of further engaging your asinine, vacuous harangue.
 

Deck Knight

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I'm just going to pick a few things that stood out to me, because your post does raise some legitimate points but they are ultimately lost in the ignorant diatribe that you filled the rest of your post with.
Ignorant?

Did you ever stop to think that "saving the planet" is going to create more plentiful and efficient jobs in the long run? I'm not going to sit here and say that everything involving this is 100% great, but you denounced this without doing any research on the effects of business. Not every regulation harms businesses, as I'm sure you know.
People have been trotting "save the planet" out for 10 years GD. Where are these mythical green jobs? Where are the results? Or like ACC, are these "maybe probably there's a good chance" jobs? The only jobs that have been created are government bureaucrats like the EnviroCops. If Government is your definition of "efficient jobs" then you are projecting your own ignorance onto me. The only new jobs I see are the EnviroCops, who will make their living increasing the cost of doing business, thus killing someone else's job.

Maybe if you stopped comparing science to religion, people would take your posts more seriously. Nobody is looking at climate change and saying "this is for my personal salvation".
We must save the planet GD. If we don't stop ACC our children will live in a barren, hopeless world. Won't you think of the children? The children that will be doomed if we do not act right here, right now? The very idea of saving the planet implies salvation. I believe Jesus Christ will save mankind from their sins. These people believe government action will save the planet from a overheated/stormy impending doom. My religion doesn't require me to limit the behavior of every other person on the planet, only its own religious adherents.

Not everything is either pro-God or anti-God. The reason why people are so hostile towards your posts is because you split everything into two groups, one of which is red that you applaud no matter what it tells you and everything else is blue which only seeks to destroy the principles of freedom so naturally it must be misguided. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe some things ARENT politically motivated?
American Football. Except the Dallas Cowboys, obviously.

The fact there is a government agency and intergovernmental panel that directly benefits from the existence of and continued grant funding for climate change research makes this issue inherently political. Careers are made or broken based on your belief in the EPA and IPCC's policies on ACC.

Maybe people are legitimately trying to do good for others at no benefit to themselves? I know that doesnt make sense from the true patriotic capitalist's point of view that you hold, but some people don't need to be threatened by permanent damnation before they start doing good.
Again, government agencies dictate the results. If taxpayer dollars were not going to fund a specific agenda, and all climate research was performed in private labs with private grants, I would give the topic some credence. The fact global warming has been an arm of the government ever since its inception and furthermore, that more intrusive policies have been crafted directly around global warming (like the banning of incandescent light bulbs, the creation of government carbon credit schemes, etc.) leads me to believe something stinks.

Just wanted to get this out of the way: if you don't understand that carbon and other emissions that come directly from humans are threatening the climate and landscape of this planet then you are ignorant (or retarded, but I'm an optimist). Climate change is obviously happening, it is obviously going to be more of an issue if we continue at this pace.
Volcanos. A single volcanic blast shoots more carbon and other pollutants into the air than humans can possibly belch out over a decade in a single, much more destabilizing blow. The idea that we puny humans who inhabit what, 30% of the planet's ground surface at best (not even including oceans), and the industrialized centers even less can compare to mother nature is arrogance in the extreme. In fact, the most recent ACC backed explanation of the cooling temperatures in 2009 is a natural phenomenon of a La Nina. Human beings are only minuscule players when the planet is experiencing cooling. When it's warming, all of a sudden we're the big bad again.

Then of course there's sunspots. A single solar flare could wipe out planet earth instantaneously. This is the source of all light and heat for our entire solar system. If the sun is cold, we are cold. It is so massive that our moon barely eclipses it. It is so bright it can still cause blindness when stared into. From 93 million miles away.

The question with climate change isn't "is it happening?" (we have known this for several years now), it's "what can we do to stop it?".
Which goes back to the EnviroCops. How do the EnviroCops stop global warming? By creating a political favoritism system based primarily on keeping carbon emissions even through trading schemes? You and I both know that this does absolutely nothing. Nothing can be done by such schemes.

You want to lower carbon emissions? Really lower them? Get someone to grow some balls and tell China, India, and Russia to curb their economies and retrofit their factories. American and British technology has been clean for decades. A 10% reduction in our footprint would cost tens of thousands of times more than a 10% reduction in China or India's footprint. US companies have basically reached the upper limit on emissions filtration systems. The marginal cost to reduce another percentage point is astronomical.


Do you even read what you write? Let me give you a big list of reasons how they are different, off the top of my head:

- the tides are not a direct result of human pollution
We have pollutted the ocean with waste and cannisters, displacing the water there. Remember this is not about the tides themselves, (just like ACC isn't about emissions themselves) but the height they reach.

- One person isn't enough to tackle the entire ocean. You basically just said "this problem is way too big for one person to fix, so we shouldn't even try to fix it". If you built a big ass wall with a bunch of people, the tide would be a lot easier to change now, wouldnt it?
The tide would not change, only be redirected. It would be possible if you built a wall on every seashore of every nation. But it would also be extremely expensive (like ACC, not a problem for its adherents, because we must save the planet), and ultimately the water would just go up the walls and the tide would be unaffected, it'd just be hitting the wall. Untill there's a crack. Then those poor souls get the Noah's Ark Treatment.

- the climate does fluctuate, but there is no mechanism in place to reverse the pressure that we are constantly putting on the environment (analogy: there is a barrel of water with a small hole in the bottom. If you stop filling the barrel at some point, the water will drain out and return to equilibrium, but if you keep filling the barrel it will never empty. The climate does fluctuate naturally, but by continuing to emit what we are, we are essentially never letting the barrel empty out and return to a stable state. How can you expect the climate to just change back when we are doing everything in our power to prevent that?)
Again Volcanos. Volcanos have been emitting gases into the atmosphere since the earth's creation. "Emissions" were not invented by human beings. Every tree everywhere on earth is emitting oxygen at this very moment. Every decaying log in every forest is emitting gases and fumes from decay. To patently ignore nature's contribution to emissions is ridiculous. Everything that has life emits something or other constantly, and many things without life as well. The planet has been cycling back emissions every since it had an atmosphere to speak of. A smart person would figure out how to use this cycling to their advantage. It isn't going to be the EnviroCops though.

- There are perfectly legitimate ways of drastically reducing carbon emissions without even having to make an effort

- it is actually possible for one person to have an impact on climate change
Well yes, but I hardly think jetsetting around the globe castigating me for living in a townhouse condo and driving a Full-Size vehicle (before I traded it in for a Toyota Corolla because it was 10 years old and I knew gas prices were going up) can possibly be made up for by whatever small decisions I make. I will never be able to keep up with the carbon cost to the planet brought on by the jetsetters of The Sierra Club. Maybe if Ed Begley Jr. was the going standard for environmentalists, but he isn't. Find me a famous environmentalist who teleconferences instead of using a private jet and maybe I'll start believing I can have any measurable impact on climate change that hasn't already been eradicated by my moral betters informing me the EnviroCops are necessary.


Because preventing the climate from changing much more is something that a government action can do, unlike having people line up to kick the tide. Stop setting up straw men and look at the problem at hand.
The problem at hand is not being solved by these half-measures and proto-fascist power-grabs. In the urge to do something most ACC proponents end up creating a larger mess than they set out to solve.

Which again brings us back to EnviroCops. In what measurable way does setting up this police-powered bureaucracy do anything to address the actual causes of supposed ACC? It sets out to lower emissions of one gas whose effect on ACC is still being debated, and forestalls the process by creating a carbon trading scheme. It's basically shuffling around Britains minuscule contribution to global warming for the purposes of making political winners and losers. It isn't a serious policy.

EDIT: LOL. Al Gore called the fight for climate change a fight against the Nazis. Then TimesOnline scrubbed the references because you know, Godwin's Law. Too bad someone got a screenshot of the Firefox header.
 
I don't really understand how people think global warming is fake, it's like you've never taken a basic science class, or looked at a scientific journal, the evidence is all there, and it all points to us. I'm not the biggest Al Gore fan, but until people realize that this is indeed a threat to our life as we know it, nothing will change, and the shit will hit the fan.
 

Firestorm

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Good for Britain. Companies should be kept in check. I'm sure those 50 people are happy with their new jobs as well.
Global warming is the biggest scam ever conceived.
Are you kidding or would you like to elaborate?
 
Good for Britain. Companies should be kept in check. I'm sure those 50 people are happy with their new jobs as well.Are you kidding or would you like to elaborate?
Because C02 is needed for plants to convert into oxygen, which we need for breathing.
 
Also remember global cooling in the 70's? It's all a scam to force carbon taxes.

Google "Oregon Petition"
 
Also remember global cooling in the 70's? It's all a scam to force carbon taxes.

Google "Oregon Petition"
Ah, bullshit. Global cooling was the result of a few alarmist scientists and was never taken seriously in the scientific community.

Global warming exists, and people who claim it doesn't simply have their heads up their asses because it isn't a great thing and it can't be solved by lowering taxes. I think m0nkfish posted a bunch of links, and besides, the vast majority of the scientific community has affirmed this notion.
 

Firestorm

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Because C02 is needed for plants to convert into oxygen, which we need for breathing.
Firstly, it's CO2. As in Carbon Dioxide. Secondly, an abundance of CO2 isn't going to do much. Plants have enough CO2 to turn into oxygen for us normally. We don't need to pump more of it in the air considering it's harmful to humans.

I'm still finding it hard to believe you're serious based on your arguments though. "CO2 is good for plants" and "Global Cooling in the 70s"? Really? Do you have anything substantial at all?

I hope you don't also believe that the scientific community is still fiercely debating the validity of climate change. It's as well accepted as gravity.
 
...mentioning evolution is going to make this thread into an absolute shitstorm, Firestorm.

Plus, DK can think whatever he wants - whether it's "The government is going to kill us all! Run away from the Communists!" or "**insert less ridiculous statement here**".

Have a nice day.
 

Firestorm

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Ah crap. I forgot. Editted that out. Although it is similar in that scientists all think it's proven enough to be a theory (like gravity), but less educated journalists and well educated propaganda masters in think tanks like to frame the issue differently to give the idea that there is a debate on the very existence of the idea rather than disagreements on certain aspects.

Pokey's thoughts on Climate Change seem to come from someone who has been grossly misinformed, trolling, or has a lot to lose from the United States becoming more environmentally concious.
 
Ah, bullshit. Global cooling was the result of a few alarmist scientists and was never taken seriously in the scientific community.

Global warming exists, and people who claim it doesn't simply have their heads up their asses because it isn't a great thing and it can't be solved by lowering taxes. I think m0nkfish posted a bunch of links, and besides, the vast majority of the scientific community has affirmed this notion.
Which is why we had a "GIANT FUCKING HOLE IN THE OZONE LAYER".

In any case, consensus on global warming/climate change only exists within government funded research because that's what they're paid for.
Reference to obscure post above: I don't know a single "libertarian" who supports any sort of regulation/tax to help combat global warming, as it goes contrary to the basic tenet's of "libertarianism".
 
Which is why we had a "GIANT FUCKING HOLE IN THE OZONE LAYER".
How this post is even remotely relevant to this debate is beyond me. The hole in the ozone layer, which is scientifically very well established, has absolutely nothing to do with global warming or "global cooling." Ozone blocks high-frequency radiation from reaching us and giving us skin cancer; chlorofluorocarbons are catalysts (alter the activation energy but are not consumed in the reaction) that shift the equilibrium from O3 towards O2, with the result that UV-blocking O3 is considerably less abundant; and none of this is connected to global warming or cooling.
 

Hipmonlee

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I'm going to use my 5k post to reply to this topic because I have some stuff I'd like to say.

"Saving the planet" is apparently the biggest issue in Britain right now. Not people losing jobs left and right in an economic downturn, not slashing wasteful government programs (this would in fact be creating one. A big one. With police powers.), and not creating an economic climate in which businesses can prosper.
What were you thinking? I mean... what? This has been pointed out in this thread before, but I have to do it again, It's just so surreal.. It's the sort of thing I'd expect from Ayn Rand villians if she had been a liberal.

I'd like to say that this police force is a stupid idea. Auditing companies is complicated and unnecessary, when basically all carbon emmissions all come from one source. Tax fossil fuels. It's so easy and efficient. And it creates revenue rather than costing the government. It is probably a significantly more efficient revenue source than income tax.

But thats really not what this thread is about, it's more about not believing in climate change.. Which, tbh I can understand. Scientific consensus only exists when newspapers say it does. If you dont really understand the science behind something, you basically have to listen to the people you trust.

So, I am going to try and explain why I believe in a carbon tax and especially in governmental support for afforestation.

Firstly it is clear to me that the greenhouse effect exists in principle. I dont really understand it, but nobody seems to be questioning this part of the discussion. It's something I have been taught in school since childhood, there is no reason for me to question this.

So then the next question is do I think humans are capable of having a large enough impact on the levels of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere to have a significant effect on the climate. And yeah, I do.

I know that I personally have burned a hell of lot of fuel in my lifetime. I put a lot of litres of petrol into various cars over the years, but I've never taken any litres of petrol out. And I know a lot of people who own cars. And I know a lot of factories that put car ownership to shame in terms of fuel burning.

I also know that once upon a time, New Zealand was Forest from top to bottom, and now it is farmland from top to bottom. It seems pretty clear that grass is not as effective at removing carbon from the atmosphere as forest is. Which tbh makes a lot of sense, I mean, forests are much larger masses of carbon than fields of grass. Perhaps this is entirely caused by the animals grazing. But this does raise a secondary point that confuses me. Certainly a lot of carbon is removed from farms in the form of beef and lamb, how is this being replaced? Perhaps fields of grass do remove enough carbon from the atmosphere to offset these losses, just quite possibly no longer enough to offest the amount put into the atmosphere by volcanos.

I also know that in cities, the air gets quite disgusting. And it's carbon that is doing that..

I also know that humankind has made serious environmental impact in the past. Eg. leaded fuel, CFCs or DDT. It's because small changes can have a massive impact on an ecosystem. It's the butterfly effect.

And given that at some point if you pump enough carbon into the atmosphere, the climate will change; that people are pumping a lot of carbon into the atmosphere; that there are a lot less trees than their once were; that small changes can have drastic outcomes; that a lot of scientists are suggesting that climate is already changing; and that if you roll any number of dice enough times eventually you will hit all 1s, I think it would be ridiculous folly for us to ignore this threat.

Even if the climate isnt changing yet, then the sooner we act to prevent our emissions from reaching the point where the climate will change the better.

There are some other things I'd like to mention.

Then you go and ask an actual climatologist, not an Energy Agency hack, and they'll say the topic is still under rigorous (the comments, the OP is obviously in the tank) discussion.

I can tolerate that people believe in something as stupid, unfounded, and fraudulent as Anthropogenic Climate Change
Wait, isnt the topic still under rigorous discussion? Or did the climatologists resolve this in the time it took you to start that new paragraph.. Please cut this shit out. I'm sick of it.

The only kind of people who claim they can save the planet are deities, con-men, and lunatics.
I would hate to believe this. Of course anyone can make a difference, you just have to try.. Of course there are no guarantees of success, but there are no guarantees of failure either.

Volcanos. A single volcanic blast shoots more carbon and other pollutants into the air than humans can possibly belch out over a decade in a single, much more destabilizing blow.
I'd like to hear more on this. I mean what are you talking about here, if you mean like the Taupo eruption then sure, but that was over 1000 years ago.. There are millions of different volcanic eruptions you could be talking about, so I dont really know like, if this comment is even worth thinking about.

Then of course there's sunspots. A single solar flare could wipe out planet earth instantaneously. This is the source of all light and heat for our entire solar system. If the sun is cold, we are cold. It is so massive that our moon barely eclipses it. It is so bright it can still cause blindness when stared into. From 93 million miles away.
A humbling thought, but not one that is any way relevant. We can never know for certain what will happen in the future, what the outcomes of any action will be, all we can do is the best with the information available to us. If our efforts to protect the environment are in vain because of something none of us anticipated then we are unlucky, if we can see a threat coming, and do nothing, then we are idiots.

You want to lower carbon emissions? Really lower them? Get someone to grow some balls and tell China, India, and Russia to curb their economies and retrofit their factories. American and British technology has been clean for decades. A 10% reduction in our footprint would cost tens of thousands of times more than a 10% reduction in China or India's footprint. US companies have basically reached the upper limit on emissions filtration systems. The marginal cost to reduce another percentage point is astronomical.
Firstly, I dont believe you. I know American companies could be doing far, far more to decrease their environmental impact. Americans are also the worlds largest producer of carbon emissions. They are also on average, significantly richer than Indians, Chinese or Russians, and therefore are actually capable of doing more about it.

But you are right, China, Russia and India need to be doing more. Unfortunately I dont get to vote in their elections. Nor do I get to vote in American or English elections. But you do, and so do the Indian or Russian and I have no idea how China works in terms of elections, members of this board. And if I could, I'd vote for a carbon tax.

I expect there have been a lot of posts in the meantime while I was posting this.. I'll probably have to make some edits..

Have a nice day.
 

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