If it runs Ice Punch, Heatran beats it. If it runs Superpower/Low Kick/Earth Power, Mence beats it.
Agreed. I'll move Thunderpunch, however I'm going to wait for more opinions on Ice Punch.
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CAP Tutor Move Additions
- Thread starter tennisace
- Start date
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I really don't see how Block is broken on Arghonaut. People easily bring in Rotom-a, Celebi, Zapdos, Cyclohm, Latias, Skarmory, random Psychic-type users such as Celebi (already mentioned lol), Jirachi, Metagross, and even Azelf to an extent. If anything it looks like theorymon. I could picture Rev just as dangerous by your eyes. Is it broken? Is it used a lot? No. What people switch in commonly to Arghonaut really just pummel "Trapnaut".
Taunt/Bounce Gyarados would probably be the only Gyarados to walk into Arghonaut. That Gyarados in particular beats out that Arghonaut easily. Your opponent switches Salamence in, and prepare to take a Draco Meteor. I hope you're at full health. CB Mence can also beat out Bulk Up Arghonaut.
Taunt/Bounce Gyarados would probably be the only Gyarados to walk into Arghonaut. That Gyarados in particular beats out that Arghonaut easily. Your opponent switches Salamence in, and prepare to take a Draco Meteor. I hope you're at full health. CB Mence can also beat out Bulk Up Arghonaut.
I'm fully aware of this, but I'm not sure how this relates. Are you saying pyroak should only ever have 1 pokemon that can counter it?
No, I'm saying that Salamence as a hard counter shouldn't be a deal breaker, since if it tries to beat Salamence, it's opening up a whole new can of worms. A big part of DPPt is surprising your opponent. Hidden Power Fire Latias is an example of this. Besides, Ice Punch would be extremely situational, and would basically only work if you had a sub up, and if Mence has Roost you lose anyway.
Cyclohm:
Competitive:
-Vacuum Wave - Has this already
-Aqua Tail - Has this already
-Outrage - Has this already
-Magnet Rise - Has this already
-Gravity - Has this already
-Block - Has this already
-Knock Off - Has this already
Flavor:
-Headbutt - With three heads this makes sense.
-Zen Headbutt - See above.
Rollout - I can kind of see Cyclohm tucking itself into a cloud ball and start rolling over unstoppably.
Ancientpower - Already has it
-Ominous Wind - Already has it, not to mention wind fits in.
-Twister - Already has it
-Whirlpool - I'm not clear on how whirlpool fits with weather, but it kind of fits in with the "stormy" thing Cyclohm has.
-Sky Attack - Clouds from the sky.
-Air Cutter - Already has this
-Snore - Cyclohm, the great snoring Skybehemoth.
Swift - Already has this
Uproar - I can imagine Cyclohm going on a big angry thunderstorm tantrum... thing.
Competitive:
-Vacuum Wave - Has this already
-Aqua Tail - Has this already
-Outrage - Has this already
-Magnet Rise - Has this already
-Gravity - Has this already
-Block - Has this already
-Knock Off - Has this already
Flavor:
-Headbutt - With three heads this makes sense.
-Zen Headbutt - See above.
Rollout - I can kind of see Cyclohm tucking itself into a cloud ball and start rolling over unstoppably.
Ancientpower - Already has it
-Ominous Wind - Already has it, not to mention wind fits in.
-Twister - Already has it
-Whirlpool - I'm not clear on how whirlpool fits with weather, but it kind of fits in with the "stormy" thing Cyclohm has.
-Sky Attack - Clouds from the sky.
-Air Cutter - Already has this
-Snore - Cyclohm, the great snoring Skybehemoth.
Swift - Already has this
Uproar - I can imagine Cyclohm going on a big angry thunderstorm tantrum... thing.
Revenankh
Competitive Moves
Knock Off*
Ice Punch*
Earth Power - possibly useful on the rare special sets
Superpower - STAB, alternative to Hammer Arm on certain sets
Vacuum Wave - STAB, possibly useful on rare special sets
Zen Headbutt - Only way for Revenankh to do decent damage to Weezing
Flavor Moves
Ancientpower*
Ominous Wind*
Spite*
Headbutt - Rev is combative by nature, so it would consider headbutting its opponents as an option!
String Shot - Rev is made of bandages, I dont think I need to explain this one.
Helping Hand - ditto the above.
Last Resort - see Headbutt
Uproar - Rev is a mummy, so it would cause an uproar when awakened?
Bare with me on my reasoning for the flavor moves, they aren't my strong point.
* means already in Revenankth's current movepool.
Competitive Moves
Knock Off*
Ice Punch*
Earth Power - possibly useful on the rare special sets
Superpower - STAB, alternative to Hammer Arm on certain sets
Vacuum Wave - STAB, possibly useful on rare special sets
Zen Headbutt - Only way for Revenankh to do decent damage to Weezing
Flavor Moves
Ancientpower*
Ominous Wind*
Spite*
Headbutt - Rev is combative by nature, so it would consider headbutting its opponents as an option!
String Shot - Rev is made of bandages, I dont think I need to explain this one.
Helping Hand - ditto the above.
Last Resort - see Headbutt
Uproar - Rev is a mummy, so it would cause an uproar when awakened?
Bare with me on my reasoning for the flavor moves, they aren't my strong point.
* means already in Revenankth's current movepool.
Add: Gravity I think Rev focuses a bit too much on its one good set (BU/HA/SS/Rest) and it would be cool for it to have some new support options to play with. Gravity also gives Hammer Arm and Power Whip 100% accuracy and disables Roost. It's buddy Dusknoir already got Gravity, I think Rev would be ever better at utilizing it, since it makes a pretty good pivot to pokemon that like enhanced accuracy on, say, Stone Edge.
Add: Pain Split All the Ghosts picked this up. It's vastly inferior to Rest, but it works very well from a flavor standpoint.
Add: Magic Coat As silly as it is to be statusing Rev, this could be a cool surprise.
2 things:
1: Roost is evidently not disabled by Gravity. =/
2: It seems like a strange double standard to give Pokemon moves for flavor reasons (all Ghosts get Pain Split) and yet not deny moves to Pokemon for the same reason (no Fire-types get Ice Punch, and for that matter, the only Grass-types that learn Ice Punch are the ones that have a secondary type that necessitates receiving it (ice for Abomasnow, water for Ludicolo)). I can understand that flavor shouldn't really matter (Wooper doesn't have arms, yet it gets Ice Punch), but Game Freak typing precedent at least should.
I was looking through the types for punch-getting precedent. Basically, if it has forearms and is x type, it gets y e-punches.
Water - Water-types get only Ice Punch (not ThunderPunch or Fire Punch)
Grass - Grass-types may only have ThunderPunch (not Ice Punch or Fire Punch)
Fire - May get Fire Punch and ThunderPunch (not Ice Punch)
Ice - May get Ice Punch and ThunderPunch (not Fire Punch)
Steel - May get Ice Punch and ThunderPunch (not Fire Punch)
Bug - May get Ice Punch and Thunderpunch (not Fire Punch)
The following types are unrestricted: Normal, Dragon, Rock, Ground, Electric, Ghost, Poison, Psychic, Dark, Fighting, Flying.
1: Roost is evidently not disabled by Gravity. =/
2: It seems like a strange double standard to give Pokemon moves for flavor reasons (all Ghosts get Pain Split) and yet not deny moves to Pokemon for the same reason (no Fire-types get Ice Punch, and for that matter, the only Grass-types that learn Ice Punch are the ones that have a secondary type that necessitates receiving it (ice for Abomasnow, water for Ludicolo)). I can understand that flavor shouldn't really matter (Wooper doesn't have arms, yet it gets Ice Punch), but Game Freak typing precedent at least should.
I was looking through the types for punch-getting precedent. Basically, if it has forearms and is x type, it gets y e-punches.
Water - Water-types get only Ice Punch (not ThunderPunch or Fire Punch)
Grass - Grass-types may only have ThunderPunch (not Ice Punch or Fire Punch)
Fire - May get Fire Punch and ThunderPunch (not Ice Punch)
Ice - May get Ice Punch and ThunderPunch (not Fire Punch)
Steel - May get Ice Punch and ThunderPunch (not Fire Punch)
Bug - May get Ice Punch and Thunderpunch (not Fire Punch)
The following types are unrestricted: Normal, Dragon, Rock, Ground, Electric, Ghost, Poison, Psychic, Dark, Fighting, Flying.
For moves that have some competitive merit, flavor and precedent are ignored. For moves that don't have competitive merit, flavor and precedent are considered. I'm not sure how that's a double standard, considering the main focus of CAP is a "competitive" project. The only reason we include flavor moves is because if not, the Pokemon in question would be quite dull. We can make a "Pokemon" with solely a competitive movepool, competitive ability, and perfectly tailored stats, ignoring the Art and the flavor part of the movepool. However, that wouldn't be very fun to participate in, would it?
That makes absolutely ZERO sense. If you're trying to be even anything close to how an actual Pokemon would actually operate and be formed. It makes no sense to, knowing that Grass-types and Fire-types are disallowed from learning Ice Punch across the board for three generations, all of a sudden say "Let's give this one Ice Punch because it would "work" for it. I get the idea that you want to give something as many competitive options as possible, but it makes no sense to just throw four generations of Game Freak precedent out the window because something should get something for dubious "competitive" reasons. This is doubly notable when there are things with such clear-cut rules as the Elemental Punches.
I get that art and flavor shouldn't just take over a project, but when you're dealing with something as simple as typing and type-based precedent, it just seems like an odd choice.
I get that art and flavor shouldn't just take over a project, but when you're dealing with something as simple as typing and type-based precedent, it just seems like an odd choice.
Raj
CAP Playtesting Expert
I'm not necessarily saying that I disagree with allowing Zen Headbutt, but I think you should emphasize how this would be appropriate for a couple reasons. For one, you make it seem like Weezing is a huge threat (despite the fact that Rev will probably beat any Weeezing 1v1 anyway). My second point is that by the above reasoning, you now have no listed argument for said move.
What's up, CaPpers? Long time no chat/post/whatever...
Anyways, I'd like to Add: Magnet Rise, Add: Helping Hand (for doubles), Add: Bug Bite, Add: Aqua Tail, and Add: Sucker Punch. He needs other ways to use his scouting abilities to his advantage; using things like Magnet Rise on a predicted EQ or Sucker Punch on a predicted priority attack sound like good ideas (though maybe not better than Role Play); Aqua Tail can be a decent form of coverage so it can free up a slot for Trick or Role Play or something (as Ghost/Bug/Water is only resisted by Empoleon and Dialga, the latter of which you don't see on CaP ladder). Bug Bite is really for the lulz, but you could combine it with Frisk to steal a useful boost.
I wish I could Add: Me First, but sadly that isn't an option; I really feel that this would have been a very nice thing for Kitsunoh. Firing back a Pokemon's own attack at 50% more power feels so good when I use it on my "Echo Echo" Lucario set (Hasty/Naive, Choice Scarf, 252 Speed/149 Attack/109 Sp. Attack, Me First/Copycat/ExtremeSpeed/Water Pulse). Admittedly, Kit would need a BIT more in the way of base Special Attack to do consistent damage with this sort of set, but at the very least, it would have been a fun little gimmick with a nice payoff every now and again.
EDIT: Also, where the heck is BEEJ? I want to talk about Stratagem, too. :C
Yes, YES, YES. Role Play will help Kitsunoh out a buttload. When Trans switch in to try and spoil your fun? BAM, Role Play Flash Fire to get rid of a weakness. Levitaters like Bronzong ruining your day? BAM, Role Play and enjoy the immunity. Aww, somebody Intimidate your Kitsunoh? BAM, Role Play and Intimidate them right back. Jolteon, Electivire and Vaporeon are no longer able to use STAB moves without helping him out; Medicham and Azumarill can't even stay in any more, Argho gets his own stat-ignoring ability shoved in his face... Oh, it's going to be awesomesauce; especially when Shoddy 2 comes out and we can do doubles with him. (Magic Coat helps on a big level too, as Frisk is severely underutilized right now and bouncing back a paralysis can be more favorable than simply being immune to it in some cases.)
Anyways, I'd like to Add: Magnet Rise, Add: Helping Hand (for doubles), Add: Bug Bite, Add: Aqua Tail, and Add: Sucker Punch. He needs other ways to use his scouting abilities to his advantage; using things like Magnet Rise on a predicted EQ or Sucker Punch on a predicted priority attack sound like good ideas (though maybe not better than Role Play); Aqua Tail can be a decent form of coverage so it can free up a slot for Trick or Role Play or something (as Ghost/Bug/Water is only resisted by Empoleon and Dialga, the latter of which you don't see on CaP ladder). Bug Bite is really for the lulz, but you could combine it with Frisk to steal a useful boost.
I wish I could Add: Me First, but sadly that isn't an option; I really feel that this would have been a very nice thing for Kitsunoh. Firing back a Pokemon's own attack at 50% more power feels so good when I use it on my "Echo Echo" Lucario set (Hasty/Naive, Choice Scarf, 252 Speed/149 Attack/109 Sp. Attack, Me First/Copycat/ExtremeSpeed/Water Pulse). Admittedly, Kit would need a BIT more in the way of base Special Attack to do consistent damage with this sort of set, but at the very least, it would have been a fun little gimmick with a nice payoff every now and again.
EDIT: Also, where the heck is BEEJ? I want to talk about Stratagem, too. :C
Competitive Moves
Earth Power – Already has it.
Signal Beam – A neat new special move to wreck Celebi and potentially confuse things.
Heat Wave – It already has Fire Blast and Flamethrower, there’s no harm in giving it this.
Icy Wind – It gets Ice Beam, and it slows things down which can be useful.
Trick – This is probably the most exciting move here. I’m really interested in seeing how Trick Stratagem would affect the metagame, and how many more Specs sets will be seen.
Vacuum Wave – Already has it.
Gravity – I think Stratagem has the potential to be a somewhat interesting user of Gravity. Pokemon like Rotom and Bronzong become vulnerable to Earth Power.
Flavor Moves
Bounce – I can absolutely see this thing rising into the air and bouncing on something.
Iron Head – The head is pretty dominant in its design.
Zen Headbutt – Head.
Headbutt – Head.
Knock Off – Speeds by and knocks off your item.
Mud-slap – It already has Earth Power, so why not?
Rollout – Rock-type.
Ancientpower – Already has it.
Ominous Wind – If it can get Ancientpower and Shadow Ball, there’s no reason why it can’t get this.
Fury Cutter – Claws/scythes.
Air Cutter – Claws/scythes.
Snore – Everything learns it.
Swift – Generic special move.
Uproar – Blahhh.
Magnet Rise – Its other ability is Levitate, and supposedly its powers come from magnetism.
lol, the vast majority of even the competitive moves are flavor on Stratagem…
Earth Power – Already has it.
Signal Beam – A neat new special move to wreck Celebi and potentially confuse things.
Heat Wave – It already has Fire Blast and Flamethrower, there’s no harm in giving it this.
Icy Wind – It gets Ice Beam, and it slows things down which can be useful.
Trick – This is probably the most exciting move here. I’m really interested in seeing how Trick Stratagem would affect the metagame, and how many more Specs sets will be seen.
Vacuum Wave – Already has it.
Gravity – I think Stratagem has the potential to be a somewhat interesting user of Gravity. Pokemon like Rotom and Bronzong become vulnerable to Earth Power.
Flavor Moves
Bounce – I can absolutely see this thing rising into the air and bouncing on something.
Iron Head – The head is pretty dominant in its design.
Zen Headbutt – Head.
Headbutt – Head.
Knock Off – Speeds by and knocks off your item.
Mud-slap – It already has Earth Power, so why not?
Rollout – Rock-type.
Ancientpower – Already has it.
Ominous Wind – If it can get Ancientpower and Shadow Ball, there’s no reason why it can’t get this.
Fury Cutter – Claws/scythes.
Air Cutter – Claws/scythes.
Snore – Everything learns it.
Swift – Generic special move.
Uproar – Blahhh.
Magnet Rise – Its other ability is Levitate, and supposedly its powers come from magnetism.
lol, the vast majority of even the competitive moves are flavor on Stratagem…
@Beej: I would hardly define Heat Wave a competitive move on something which already has Flamethrower and Fire Blast, but I'm fine with it.
About the flavor moves I'd also suggest Iron Defense. A good deal of Rock pokémon learn it (Omanyte/Omastar, Kabuto/Kabutops, Magcargo, Anorith/Armaldo, Larvitar line etc), and I can see it suiting Stratagem nicely.
EDIT: after thinking for a bit, despite me loving Stratagem a lot, I'm growing more and more skeptical about Trick. It's most reliable counters (Blissey and Arghonaut above others) get completely crippled by this. I wonder if it could be too much fo him
About the flavor moves I'd also suggest Iron Defense. A good deal of Rock pokémon learn it (Omanyte/Omastar, Kabuto/Kabutops, Magcargo, Anorith/Armaldo, Larvitar line etc), and I can see it suiting Stratagem nicely.
EDIT: after thinking for a bit, despite me loving Stratagem a lot, I'm growing more and more skeptical about Trick. It's most reliable counters (Blissey and Arghonaut above others) get completely crippled by this. I wonder if it could be too much fo him
Bull of Heaven
Guest
Bold moves are the ones that I think should be removed should be removed. Underlined moves are ones that I'm not sure about.
frankly, Stratagem is a pretty huge threat as it is; I don't think it needs a new way to fuck up its best counter... it might be just me, but I really don't want to see trickgem.
as for the above post, I don't see how it makes sense to have flamethrower but not heatwave. I agree that aircutter and bounce don't make any sense at all from a flavour standpoint. I'd also rather not see rollout (how's it going to roll exactly?) and uproar (seriously it doesn't even have a mouth lol)
ps: can we get some more opinions on fidgit, I really don't want it to get thunderpunch :(
as for the above post, I don't see how it makes sense to have flamethrower but not heatwave. I agree that aircutter and bounce don't make any sense at all from a flavour standpoint. I'd also rather not see rollout (how's it going to roll exactly?) and uproar (seriously it doesn't even have a mouth lol)
ps: can we get some more opinions on fidgit, I really don't want it to get thunderpunch :(
Icy Wind Could be useful on Stratagem's Technician set.
Baltoy, Claydol, Weezing, Trapinch line, Banette, Latios, Latias, Frosslas, Rotom, Uxie, Mespirit, Azelf, Giratina, Cresselia learn Mud Slap and they too "don't touch the ground".
I don't see why, this will also be useful to Stratagem's Technician set.
From what I can see the biggest remaining objection (read: brought up by more than one person) is Trick on Stratagem. If we could have a discussion on that so we can finalize this, that would be great. Also if anyone else has serious objections due to power, now would be a great time to say it. I don't care about flavor or outclassed moves at this point, only if you think a move is broken.
As for trick on Stratagem, I think it could make him over-powered. He already has an offensive movepool that makes Azelf jealous, equal power (better STAB type though) and speed to beat any sweeper. This makes finding a safe switch-in to the specs set extremely difficult already. Giving him the power to screw up the few walls that can reliably take hits from him seems like an unnecessary action, as he already has no problem causing massive damage to any team.
Yeah, i'm gonna have to say no to Trick on Strata. Specs sets are already difficult enough to wall. Trick just makes them more difficult. Blissey goes from being a top counter to utterly useless with Trick. Considering his already high power and blazing speed, Trick would not be fun.
Special Attackers aren't really hard to wall. Blissey simply stands in their way. Trick a Blissey, sure. Then what? It's still capable of walling Stratagem. A Tricked Blissey is still a Blissey, although it is much easier to kill off and score turns. The fact that Stratagem is still walled by Blissey still stands. It is not "utterly useless".
I really dont see what's bad about Trick on Stratagem. You have Specs Latias, Scarf Latias, Scarf Rotom, and a bunch of other Scarfers such as Jirachi. Yet the fact that Blissey is still a common pokemon in OU and CAP is well known. While Specs Stratagem with Trick may not warrant any "counters", a team does not need a "counter" for everything or every set in existence. Is Specs Stratagem checkable? Of course it is. Paleo Wave/EP/FT/Trick is pretty simple to take care of, considering you have things that are able to kill it off quick such as Scizor, who can come in after a sac with Bullet Punch or Pursuit. As for switch ins there are Arghonaut, Latias, Blissey, Revenankh, Machamp, lol, even Hariyama, all of which are capable of doing so in certain circumstances for each. While Stratagem may be a competent sweeper, it cannot break shit up as well as your regular CBTar, Mixmence, or CB Scizor + chipping health down, all of which are good to play midgame. Stratagem is usually difficult to switch in safely.
Trick may be assholish, but honestly it's not going to make it broken. Counter/No counter isn't everything in pokemon, it's actually beating the pokemon that counts -- Trick does not make Stratagem unbeatable, or hard to beat to a level that it would be uber.
I really dont see what's bad about Trick on Stratagem. You have Specs Latias, Scarf Latias, Scarf Rotom, and a bunch of other Scarfers such as Jirachi. Yet the fact that Blissey is still a common pokemon in OU and CAP is well known. While Specs Stratagem with Trick may not warrant any "counters", a team does not need a "counter" for everything or every set in existence. Is Specs Stratagem checkable? Of course it is. Paleo Wave/EP/FT/Trick is pretty simple to take care of, considering you have things that are able to kill it off quick such as Scizor, who can come in after a sac with Bullet Punch or Pursuit. As for switch ins there are Arghonaut, Latias, Blissey, Revenankh, Machamp, lol, even Hariyama, all of which are capable of doing so in certain circumstances for each. While Stratagem may be a competent sweeper, it cannot break shit up as well as your regular CBTar, Mixmence, or CB Scizor + chipping health down, all of which are good to play midgame. Stratagem is usually difficult to switch in safely.
Trick may be assholish, but honestly it's not going to make it broken. Counter/No counter isn't everything in pokemon, it's actually beating the pokemon that counts -- Trick does not make Stratagem unbeatable, or hard to beat to a level that it would be uber.
I don't think Trick Strata would be uber either (And I do not believe there is any of us which really believe into this). But I think it is a bit too much of an addition to be introduced without some kind of testing, voting or whatever.
Besides, I firmly believe - and I'm saying this for ages^^ - that a Pokémon should not have anything competitive under the sun, even if that competitive stuff does not break him. Our movepools should be more precise and less "out-of-the-wazoo", if you pass me this weird expression^^ I mean, there are a lot of OU Pokémon out there with shallow movepools which still do fine. I do not think Scizor would be promptly hailed Uber if it had Rock Slide, or Swampert if it had Recover. Yes, those move would help them greatly, but they thrive even without them. The only important thing is having the tools to do the job, and I think Stratagem has them, much like Scizor and Swampert. So, although Trick would not break him, I think it's a bit unfair to allow it so lightly (especially since it had been a really controversial move back in the CAP5 poll, with only 51 preferences out of 94). Just my 2 cents.
Besides, I firmly believe - and I'm saying this for ages^^ - that a Pokémon should not have anything competitive under the sun, even if that competitive stuff does not break him. Our movepools should be more precise and less "out-of-the-wazoo", if you pass me this weird expression^^ I mean, there are a lot of OU Pokémon out there with shallow movepools which still do fine. I do not think Scizor would be promptly hailed Uber if it had Rock Slide, or Swampert if it had Recover. Yes, those move would help them greatly, but they thrive even without them. The only important thing is having the tools to do the job, and I think Stratagem has them, much like Scizor and Swampert. So, although Trick would not break him, I think it's a bit unfair to allow it so lightly (especially since it had been a really controversial move back in the CAP5 poll, with only 51 preferences out of 94). Just my 2 cents.
So we give it Trick, if its too much, we take it away. Simple.
A majority is a majority. Also, Trick does help it accomplish it's concept. If you remember, it's concept is "Break the Mold". There are no Rock-types with Trick. I mean I'm all for trimming superfluous moves like Ice Beam and Thunderbolt, but Trick is very important and will make a difference, unlike all the other moves on that list.
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