Aggron: No longer the retarded child of Rhydon and Registeel

[Lee]

Obviously Aggron's main problem isn't his inability to switch in, to the contrary he's actually very good at that if he has SS support. The problem is, a lot of Pokemon are going to be outspeeding him clobbering him for fatal damage on the following turn. With that in mind, here's some musings of how he does at switching into and launching an attack at the top 20 pokemon.

1. Scizor = Life Orb sets are going to outspeed and OHKO provided they're using a Fighting attack (Brick Break can't always assure the KO though). Choice Band sets are often going to be U-turning to a counter but if they're locked into Pursuit or Bullet Punch Aggron is good to go (Choice Band BP still does a respectable 35% on avg to a 80/0 Aggron so don't be too lax about throwing him into BPs).

2. Salamence = A worrying 80% of Salamence pack Earthquake which will tidily OHKO Aggron. Outrage is a fantastic opportunity for Aggron to do his thing though - even a max atk +1 LO Outrage only manages about 45% on avg to 80/0 Aggron. It's always useful to have something that can take such a common and dangerous attack so well.

3. Heatran = If he's Scarfed and using a weak resisted attack, then sure. But even with sand support, Fire Blast is easily 2HKOing 80/0 Aggron.

4. Gyarados = Heck no.

5. Latias = Not bad here, but 319 SpA Life Orb Surf does 88% on avg to 80/0 Aggron even with Sand. LO DM does 47% on average so if you come in on that, you'll take 43% on avg from a -2 Surf. If you play with caution, you have a reasonable matchup here.

6. Tyranitar = Choice Band variants are a godsend for Aggron if they're not using Earthquake or Aqua Tail (and Tyranitar tends not to use those moves as often as his others). Even the dreaded Choice Band Stone Edge does 29% on avg to a 80/0 Aggron. Dragon Dance versions aren't too bad either as a lot of them are now going for the DD/Crunch/Stone Edge/Fire Punch set up. 41% of Tyranitar ran EQ last month.

7. Metagross = Another powerful Earthquaker so probably best to stay clear. Aggron's CB EQ only manages 75% on avg to a 252/16 Metagross so even if you outspeed you're still outta luck.

8. Lucario = :doom:

9. Infernape = :happybrain:

10. Jirachi = Quite good here. Calm Mind versions can't do enough to Aggron in sand unless they use HP Ground. Physical versions have the potential to flinch him to death (328 Iron Head does 25% on avg to 80/Aggron)

11. Gengar = Switches in very well on Scarfed versions and only has to fear the 70% accurate Focus Blast. Not a smart idea but I suppose in a pinch you could try your luck.

12. Swampert = Nope.

13. Blissey = Great stuff. Obviously RP versions don't want Thunder Wave but Blissey is good news for Aggron.

14. Azelf = Aggron can absorb his Explosion for you which is always useful and takes his other attacks quite well if he has Sand. Not a bad matchup here, shame he's nearly always a lead.

15. Starmie = Nah.

16. Rotom-h = If he's scarfed and using Shadow Ball. Otherwise you're risking a WoW. TBolt is tolerable if you have sand but can still 2HKO from max SpA versions.

17. Gliscor = No.

18. Vaporeon = No for the mostpart but if you can get in on an attack that isn't Surf, you can deal 85% on avg to a 188/252+ Vaporeon which can OHKO after a little residual damage and might be enough to force your opponent to switch if he wants to keep his Vappy healthy to stop a Gyarados/Infernape at a later stage.

19. Magnezone = TBolt and Flash Cannon 2HKOs even in sand but you've got a shot if you get in on something else. Shit outta luck if he Magnet Rises though.

20. Zapdos = Yes if you have Sand and don't come in on Tbolt, don't even attempt it otherwise.

For additional reading, Lemmiwinks posted a similar assessment in the other thread (with a focus on Aggron vs Rhyperior) a few days ago so here it is:

I see where you're coming from with the greater number of resistances, although you glaringly forgot Rhyperior's Electric immunity. But IMO resistances by themselves aren't the important thing, but how well you can apply those resistances to the metagame. On tha note, I had a sudden interest in examining their usefulness in this regard head to head. Here is the top 30 according to last month's statistics (tl;dr warning):

Scizor - I’d say Aggron, due to the fact that Scizor is often hit-and-run with CB U-turn, and Aggron’s resistance helps in that regard. Takes less from Bullet Punch too. But also dies 1 on 1 to Superpower and is more vulnerable to trapping after U-turn, but those are more situational so I’ll give it the benefit of the doubt here.

Salamence - I’d say Rhyperior edges this, just because it is capable of switching in on the Dragon Dance variant and beating it. Almost all Salamence carry Earthquake, so that rules out Aggron as a good match-up right there. Aggron does revenge-kill it better when stuck on Outrage, but there are better Pokemon for that (^^^) that are already on just about any OU team anyway.

Heatran - Rhyperior easily.

Gyarados - Neither like facing it, but Aggron wins for the fact that it takes Waterfall better, which will always be used where Earthquake may not (such as on ResTalk or Taunt sets). Always dies to Earthquake variants, but Rhyperior never fares any better.

Rotom-A - Rhyperior wins here. Being immune to Thunderbolt is much more important than resisting the weaker Shadow Ball. Also takes Overheat better, which is much more common than Leaf Storm versions. Neither like WoW, so that’s a moot point.

Latias - I’ll give this to Aggron, as it can take Dragon Pulses and Draco Meteors a little better than Rhyperior, and therefore edges it. Both hate Surf.

Tyranitar - Rhyperior. Although Aggron resists both STABs, it is obliterated by boosted Earthquakes whereas Rhyperior can take the odd hit, and both hate Aqua Tail. Rhyperior also fares better against Dragon Dance variants and the occasional Boah.

Metagross - despite the Steel weakness, I say Rhyperior wins here. Rhyperior has even bulk to take any hit and KO back with Earthquake, whereas Aggron is KO’d by Earthquake (Meta’s most common move) and can’t come close to KOing back.

Lucario - Rhyperior again, because it can take an unboosted Close Combat whilst Aggron obviously can’t. The Rock Polish variant is also far less prne to revenge-kills from Vacuum Wave.

Infernape - Both are easily KO’d by most Infernape, but as with Lucario, Rhyperior edges it for being less prone to revenge-kills as a Rock Polisher.

Jirachi - Aggron wins here, despite lacking a STAB move to hit it effectively. Takes less from Iron Head, so less prone to being flinched to death, and takes Psychics and Grass Knots better from special variants.

Gengar - Rhyperior wins here despite not resisting Ghost. Focus Blast will annihilate Aggron, but Rhyperior can comfortably take a hit or two with suitable investment. Energy Ball is much rarer, and doesn’t OHKO anyway.

Swampert - neither like taking it on, but Rhyperior fares better because of STAB Earthquake that does much more damage, and can 2HKO with Choice Band.

Blissey - depends on the set and which status is most crippling. Aggron is immune to Toxic, whilst Rhyperior is immune to Thunder Wave. So I suppose that Rhyperior is better for Rock Polish, whilst Aggron is better for slow hard-hitting sets. Rhyperior can make 101 HP Subs as well, but that’s a negligible difference. Not calling this one.

Azelf - Aggron wins this comfortably with Psychic resistance and neutrality to Grass Knot.

Starmie - both win and lose equally for just about all sets and situations. Only differences are that Aggron can outrun with a neutral nature after Rock Polish, whilst Rhyperior has the more reliable KOing move. Another stalemate.

Gliscor - Rhyperior easily. Aggron can’t take a STAB Earthquake, whilst Rhyperior can.

Vaporeon - both lose in equal measure for the most part, but Aggron edges it as Head Smash can OHKO with SR and Sandstorm damage.

Magnezone - Rhyperior, no need to explain why. Flash Cannon is not a factor here.

Zapdos - Yawn, Rhyperior.

Machamp - Rhyperior. Not OHKO’d by Dynamicpunch, and has STAB Earthquake.

Kingdra - Aggron can OHKO most variants with LO Head Smash, so wins this.

Breloom - Rhyperior. Both fare badly, but Rhyperior can hit it much harder, and has an easier time against those that lack Seed Bomb. Also less prone to revenge-kills for what it’s worth.

Skarmory - CB Aggron has an easier time outrunning and 2HKOing with superior speed, as some run enough to outpace Adamant Rhyperior but not base 50s. For non-choiced slow builds, Rhyperior can hit harder on Roosting turns with Earthquake, but I still think Aggron fares better here.

Bronzong - Aggron can 3HKO with Head Smash, but Rhyperior can 2HKO with Fire Punch, or even with Megahorn against less physically bulky spreads. Also much less prone to Earthquake, so Rhyperior wins here.

Celebi - easy win for Aggron.

Flygon - Rhyperior. See Salamence.

Suicune - Aggron’s Head Smash hits harder, so it edges this one.

Jolteon - Rhyperior of course.

Empoleon - Rhyperior wins for being able to OHKO any variant with Earthquake, although Aggron is slightly less prone to a revenge-kill from Aqua Jet. Only slightly though, as both can take it quite comfortably for the most part.

Rhyperior wins 18-10, with 2 ties, but this is just my opinion. I would do the next 20 in more detail too if I had the time, but on quick inspection I get the following results (not counting Rotom-c of course) in order:

Rhyperior, Rhyperior, Rhyperior, Rhyperior, Rhyperior, Rhyperior, Rhyperior, Rhyperior, stalemate, Aggron, stalemate, Rhyperior, Rhyperior, Aggron, Rhyperior, Rhyperior, Rhyperior, Rhyperior, Rhyperior, Aggron.

So Rhyperior wins 15-3 here, with two ties, though they obviously carry less weight than the top 30 when comparing their usefulness. I’m sure some of these will be controversial too, especially Weavile and Porygon-Z, but there you go.

So for all the people singing Aggron's OU praises what are you coming on on really? It just seems to me that (admittedley having done zero testing) that Aggron is just going to be one of those quirky UUs who might be fun and maybe even able to hold his own in OU to an extent but is ultimately never going to find his way into the 'better' teams.

 

[Neonian]

I would actually say that aggron wins against magnezone if it's trapped because aggron outspeeds the magnet rise variant and doesn't get OHKO'd by the timid scarf variant, though modest will kill it instantly.
Empoleon would be a draw since both OHKO it with earthquake.

I also think some of rhyperiors wins against electric types just because of his immunity aren't thought out well, since he'd still die to HP grass.

 

[blasphemy1]

I would actually say that aggron wins against magnezone if it's trapped because aggron outspeeds the magnet rise variant and doesn't get OHKO'd by the timid scarf variant, though modest will kill it instantly.
Empoleon would be a draw since both OHKO it with earthquake.

I also think some of rhyperiors wins against electric types just because of his immunity aren't thought out well, since he'd still die to HP grass.

Timid Scarf Magnezone is outsped by Rock Polish variants after a boost, and most other Aggron will Sub up on the switch(Focus Punch will OHKO Magnezone, I don't know why people are running Earthquake tbh, especially since other Aggron can just set up on you).

 

[Neonian]

...How can aggron set up on EQ?

 

[blasphemy1]

...How can aggron set up on EQ?

Magnet Rise.

 

[Neonian]

If you've already got the RP boost, you'll EQ them before they can rise and they'd need an EV investment of 120 to survive an EQ from a jolly aggron.

 

[fmsYEAH]

I guess time will tell if Aggron reaches up to the hype we've given him and establishes himself as pretty good.

Just a question to people using him; has anyone been in situations where the EQ on Aggron was so obvious, they used another move predicting a Flyer/Levitator/resistor? It's happened to me a couple times since it's too obvious that an EQ is coming that the opponent overpredicts.

Also, I love Stone Plate. I can't even remember the amount of times Lucario came in on Head Smash and SD'd, thinking I was banded. Classic reaction when they get hit by EQ.

 

[itsbigfoot]

lemmiwink's list

Zapdos - Yawn, Rhyperior.

Bronzong - Aggron can 3HKO with Head Smash, but Rhyperior can 2HKO with Fire Punch, or even with Megahorn against less physically bulky spreads. Also much less prone to Earthquake, so Rhyperior wins here.

Empoleon - Rhyperior wins for being able to OHKO any variant with Earthquake, although Aggron is slightly less prone to a revenge-kill from Aqua Jet. Only slightly though, as both can take it quite comfortably for the most part.

Tyranitar - Rhyperior. Although Aggron resists both STABs, it is obliterated by boosted Earthquakes whereas Rhyperior can take the odd hit, and both hate Aqua Tail. Rhyperior also fares better against Dragon Dance variants and the occasional Boah.

Jolteon - Rhyperior of course.

Zapdos - Defensive Zapdos does 79.25% - 93.8% to Rhyperior with HP Grass, Thunderbolt on a 56 HP Aggron (my current variant) does 63.61% - 75.51%. Zapdos has a shot at OHKOing rhyperior with SR, and if spikes are down, GG, not so with Aggron. Offensive Zapdos misses the OHKO on Aggron if it runs leftovers, but will OHKO Rhyperior no matter what (Still bad for both). Being immune to Electric does not make this better for Rhyperior

Bronzong - Both 2HKO with Fire Punch on CB variants, I personally run Fire Punch just for this reason, as Aqua Tail only hits Rhyperior. Stalemate

Empoleon - They both OHKO with EQ, Aggron takes Aqua Jet better than Rhyperior, only by a bit, but still, I'd say about even since no one runs Aqua Jet Empoleon

TTar - Aggron takes CB better, same with DD if they're running Fire Punch Rhyperior takes DD running EQ better, and takes boah a bit better, toss up

Jolteon - Specs Jolt beats both, sub pass OHKOs Rhyperior on average with HP Grass (90% minimum) but only does 84% max to Aggron with bolt.

 

[Witnessed]

I have found CB Scizor actually easy set up bait for SubLeichi Aggron. Come in while it Bullet Punches, which will do about 39% damage. then all you need to do is Rock Polish once and you are good to go.

On Aggron's tiering...

This has been a rather controversial debate. I beleive Aggron will get so much usage within a few months that he will get bumped easily in UU, and possibly into the upper UU region (75-50), making peridodical appearences in the OU region (55-40). Then I think it will settle down in UU for a while. However, I do beleive it is one of those UU Pokemon that have a certain cliche for OU.

For people who beleive Aggron needs to much team support

Not true. All you need is something that can take down Bulky Grounds if your using the Choice Band set. Granted, Rock Polish + 3 Attacks and SubLeichi generally need more team support, but generally late game sweepers need more team support then others.

Also, anyone notice how SubLeichi Aggron appeared in Blue_Tornado's recent warstory? I am surprised people know about my set.

 

[franky]

At people who told me it performs better in OU over UU, just look at Lee's post and you'll get my drift. It can't threaten anything with such poor Speed and its typing is quite horrible. In UU, its much similar, you get very little time to set up or get a switch-in, or even get an attack off. Aggron is poor in UU and OU, but I find Aggron to be more comfy in UU.

 

[RegalStar]

I really think that if anyone wants to set up RP Aggron they would want Encore or at least trick support. As it stands, Aggron is still weak to some of the most used attack types, and you can't always count on your opponent having a support poke/choice locked poke for you to set up.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Take note that my list on Rhyperior vs. Aggron is meant primarily as a guide to their overall ability to switch in on said Pokemon in order to pose a threat, in response to Bologo's point about Aggron's resistances. The only times I focused on a comparison of their offensive attributes was against Pokemon that neither can switch in on at all, such as the Water types, or where they fare almost equally well against them defensively.

So when I say that Rhyperior fares better against Jolteon, it is because Jolteon is far more likely to use (and run) Thunderbolt than HP Grass, whilst not all Zapdos run HP Grass, but almost all run Thunderbolt. And as for Bronzong, one fears Earthquake on the switch much more than the other.

Obviously they are all just my own opinion, and people are welcome to disagree with any of them, as long as it is taken in the proper context.

 

[itsbigfoot]

I did some testing on the SubLeichi Aggron, and it works much better than the SubRP (with leftovers). I still think CB is the most effective set, as you can plug it into any team and it works as a wall breaker, but I can definitely see SubLeichi working as a sweeper with the right support.

So right now we got

Choice Gron
Aggron @ Choice Band
Adamant (+ Atk, - SpA)
56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Fire Punch / Aqua Tail / Toxic

EVs to outrun Vaporeon (the fastest slow pokemon that matters). Focus Punch might be an option in that last slot, as it lets you nail Swampert on the switch, but you still won't beat him. Iron Tail might be an option on Gravity teams (if those ever get made), but other than that the three moves up there are the best.

SubLeichi Gron
Aggron @ Leichi Berry
Adamant (+ Atk, - SpA)
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Rock Polish

The EVs might work better if you run Jolly 216 Spe, as it lets you beat Heatran, or 224 to beat Flygon, not sure if it's worth the attack drop though. 28 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe / 4 SpD Jolly might be the way to go though.

The other one that shows promise is SubRise

FlyGron
Aggron @ Leftovers
Adamant (+ Atk, - SpA)
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
- Head Smash
- Focus Punch
- Substitute
- Magnet Rise

Not sure on the EVs here, he needs bulk, power and maybe a bit more speed. but basically, get him in under sandstorm, lift off and hit things with your two 150 BP moves from behind a substitute

 

[Serv]

Anyone tried Aggron with Para support? I imagine it would work well there, with a SubPunch + Rock Head + Earthquake set, considering it would actually outspeed things then.

Aggron will make UU at least, and I could see it slipping into Low OU, if only because Aggron > Rhyperior now (And Ryhperior is teetering on the edge) It'll never dislodge Scizor, but in terms of spaces jumped by a single move, it's Number 1.

I have been playing a lot lately to get used to the HG/SS changes, so I think I can now form a decent opinion of Aggron.

With Paralysis support, I feel that Rhyperior outclasses Aggron (a lot imo but w/e). The reason being Perior has access to Swords Dance, allowing him to muscle his way through the likes of Swampert, etc.

As a stand alone RP sweeper, I think they're pretty even. Aggron has a much better Rock STAB. Whereas Perior compensates with a great secondary STAB.

CB is kind of a toss up for me. But perhaps Aggron would work better over Perior, thanks to his better set of resists. I don't have much experience with CB sets so I won't go into it too much.

I will be honest, I hate it when people keep comparing the two. If you have experience playing both, you would be aware of their differences and hopefully refrain from statements like "Aggron > Rhyperior" and things like that.

I have found CB Scizor actually easy set up bait for SubLeichi Aggron. Come in while it Bullet Punches, which will do about 39% damage. then all you need to do is Rock Polish once and you are good to go.

Scizor stuck on Bullet Punch is not set up bait for RP Aggron. The only time I can even see it working is if you sac something then go to Aggron, RP while they BP you for 40%ish damage then Head Smash (Liechi would be activated after his second BP). If you do pull it off successfully, it should leave you at around 24% health with +1 Attack and +2 Speed to wreck havoc.

In conclusion, I think Aggron will be hard pressed to get into OU. It is a deadly sweeper no doubt but I think the biggest challenge is getting him set up to sweep. Ironically I think, the hype surrounding him will make it even harder for him to get into OU (I don't know, but I too have been seeing an increased number of Vacuum Wave Infernape, maybe to check him perhaps?). I still call UU for Aggron but I guess only time will tell what happens.

Thanks, take care ^^.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

Excuse my noobiness, but what's Para Support?

In any case, I find letting something die to CB Scizor's bullet punch is essentially gg with Aggron. Fun times...

As for Aggron's usage, he might spring up and get close to OU, but will probably be stopped by people preaparing for him due to the hype (I'm sure there didn't use to be this many Vacuum wave infernapes and Mach Punch Brelooms). Although, after he's cemented in UU and the hype wears off he might slowly climb up a bit. I guess we'll see though.

 

[ZandgaiaX]

Excuse my noobiness, but what's Para Support?

In any case, I find letting something die to CB Scizor's bullet punch is essentially gg with Aggron. Fun times...

As for Aggron's usage, he might spring up and get close to OU, but will probably be stopped by people preaparing for him due to the hype (I'm sure there didn't use to be this many Vacuum wave infernapes and Mach Punch Brelooms). Although, after he's cemented in UU and the hype wears off he might slowly climb up a bit. I guess we'll see though.

Like say your team got a Latias and a choice-banded aggron.
Aggron needs paralyze support too outspeed most things, which Latias then provides ;D

I found Latias and Gyarados both great partners of aggron.

Btw: Likely Swampert useage will rise due to aggron's (opcoming) popularity

 

[Scoopapa]

I have found CB Scizor actually easy set up bait for SubLeichi Aggron. Come in while it Bullet Punches, which will do about 39% damage. then all you need to do is Rock Polish once and you are good to go.

I don't think this works.

Turn one, come in on bullet punch, take 39% (61% left)
Turn two, Rock Polish, take 39% more (22% left)
turn three, die to bullet punch

You have to come in after it kills something, then you only get hit twice and get your liechi, but it will only be after you attack Scizor... I don't know if you kill without the boost.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

Oh right Para as in Paralysis. Thanks.

 

[Orcelot005]

I don't think this works.

Turn one, come in on bullet punch, take 39% (61% left)
Turn two, Rock Polish, take 39% more (22% left)
turn three, die to bullet punch

You have to come in after it kills something, then you only get hit twice and get your liechi, but it will only be after you attack Scizor... I don't know if you kill without the boost.

I've killed quite a few Aggron because they think they can set up on Scizor, lol. Scizor can just about survive an unboosted Head Smash, I don't know about a Banded one, though. So yeah, Scizor is most definatly not set up bait for Aggron.

 

[Kefky]

Isn't Relicanth better? With +2 speed Adamant, it outspeeds scarfed Heatran, and as far as I know, Aggron can't ohko or 2hko anything important that Relicanth can't either. Relicanth has stab Waterfall or Aqua Tail, and his quadruple weakness doesn't matter that much when Grass Knot hits for 40 base damage. Aggron's steel type gives it many chances to switch in, but Relicanth has a double fire resistance.

Relicanth has always had Head Smash + Rock Head and it isn't seen in OU, so why should Aggron be?

 

[TheNatureHunter]

I knew Aggron had it in him. Even the CB set concerns me. I've always thought magnet rise wa essential on Aggron to eliminate common earthquake but that would remove his ability to absorb recoil. I don't know if that trade off is worth it.

 

[Lee]

^Magnet Rise does not actually change his ability to Levitate. It just adds a temporary immunity to Ground. He will still have Rock Head.

 

[Lord Blood]

This hype seems to be building up. But is Aggron honestly going to get anywhere? Looking back on Kefka's post, I can say that Aggron has much higher attack and defense letting it switch in on physical attacks much easier (barring STAB EQs >.>) On the other hand, Relicanth is more sturdy due to higher HP. Also, Relicanth has something that Aggron and Rhyperior don't have, a second ability that's worth using in single competitive play. Aggron's Sturdy ability is useless since almost no one uses OHKO moves. Rhyperior's Lightning Rod ability is only useful in doubles at best. Relicanth on the other hand can abuse either Swift Swim with a CB and on a Rain Dance team or Rock Head with Scarf/Band in a Trick Room perhaps, or just in general.

 

[RegalStar]

If Relicanth is using Swift Swim, Head Smash becomes pretty much unusable due to the ridiculous recoil and then it really misses a lot of power.

 

[Kefky]

But Relicanth knows Rock Polish as well.