I really like Milotic as a restalker--especially because she's the only one that gets a boost for using it!
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Defending in Gen IV - Defense vs Resistances
- Thread starter Scholst
- Start date
CAL brings up quite an interesting idea here; Abilities.
Would Blissey be the beastly wall she is without Natural Cure? She doesn't fear Toxic like other non-resters do, and doesn't get frozen for the entire match, rendering her a bit useless.
What do you think; are there other Pokes that just wouldn't be the same without their abilities?
Eh....i dont like making blissey a response to mence. Switch in blissey to what you think is mixmence, see it dd, yell at yourself, and then it hits hippo pretty damn hard.
The problem with Skarm-Bliss is that it doesnt resist eough, but that it is weak to too many common types.
-Firstly, strong fighters; lucario, machamp, breloom, Infernape, Gallade ect. can easily beat skarm bliss.
-Mixed atackers also rip through skarm bliss
In the third generation it was easy to use skarm bliss because all you needed was a bulky water to fill the problems the two had, but now there is no single pokemon that can cover up all of Skarm Bliss' problems. Hence a person considering the two has this think of 2 out of 6 spots on there team to cover skarm bliss. This is too much outside of stall and using resistances is not only easier to use, but also easier to construct and is ussually more effective.
-Firstly, strong fighters; lucario, machamp, breloom, Infernape, Gallade ect. can easily beat skarm bliss.
-Mixed atackers also rip through skarm bliss
In the third generation it was easy to use skarm bliss because all you needed was a bulky water to fill the problems the two had, but now there is no single pokemon that can cover up all of Skarm Bliss' problems. Hence a person considering the two has this think of 2 out of 6 spots on there team to cover skarm bliss. This is too much outside of stall and using resistances is not only easier to use, but also easier to construct and is ussually more effective.
Thankfully, GF won't read this post, as something reducing HP/def/SpD by 1.5 would be broken as hell.
@ Polywrath: A bulky water didn't help take CB Focus Punches/Cross Chops from Heracross/Machamp any easier, you needed a Claydol/Dusclops to fill in that third wall role.
Statistically speaking, the Mixmence is more common than the Dragon Dancer. I'd rather have Blissey see a Dragon Dance than Hippowdon see a Draco Meteor, which puts it out of commission for the rest of the match. Plus, I'll probably be able to lure an Outrage and go to Skarmory, who can take two Outrages, by which point Sand, SR, and LO recoil and maybe even confusehax will have made Salamence useless.
Of course, the point is moot if Garchomp enters OU, making the Dragon Dancer less common due to the increased difficulty it has setting up and the omnipresence of Scarfchomp. In that case, I'll probably be happy to make Skarmory or Blissey the initial switch in rather than Hippowdon.
Well, I wouldn't call Pain Splite reliable recovery...
Anywho, I'd like to add Gliscor, good defence, OK HP, reliable recovery, great typing, still packs a punch with Earthquake, sets up rocks, has other supporting options like Knock Off, and has the added bonus of the opponent fearing a Baton Passer.
I both agree and disagree with this point. On the one hand, fewer weaknesses does make a wall harder to take down (Gliscor, Vaporeon, Bronzong, etc.) On the other hand, more resistances (and espeically immunities) means it has more and better opportunities to switch in because of the reduced damage.
Well, you mean crucial weaknesses, doesn't Aggron only have three (but they're biggies).
Whilst it's a bit off topic, I should note that lots off resistances even with some crucial weaknesses (case in point: Steel / Fighting).
EDIT: Objection, my point about offensive Pokemon refers to that, offensive Pokemon value that ability to switch in much more, where the defensive Pokemon usually still need to take the next hit (i.e. sure Aggron switches in on Extremespeed [keeping Lucario because its already in my mind], but it still has to take the next Close Combat), where often sweepers will threaten the opponent with *their* offensive option.
But Blissey doesn't resist anything except Ghost, and can come in on virtually any Special attack in the game with impunity. Why? Because it is only weak to one type (and a considerably rare one as far as Special attacks goes). Of course the massive Special Defense helps, but if Blissey was weak to more common Special attacks like Ice Beam, Thunderbolt and/or Fire Blast, she would be a much worse wall.
Moral of the story: few weaknesses help to wall much better than lots of resists.
Moral of the story: few weaknesses help to wall much better than lots of resists.
Another great example for that would be Empoleon (as a defensive Pokemon [which let's face it, we all thought it would be at first]), who has some great resistances, but has those key weaknesses that stop it from being greatly effective in that job (although I still use it, good for Choice users).
heatran has the exact same weaknesses as aggron, but is used defensively because of his resistances. So id say that a high number of resistances is just as, if not more important than the number of weaknesses.
Another example supporting this is celebi and drapion. Celebi has many more weaknesses than drapion (7 compared to 1) but is used defensively to his resistances to grass, water, electric, fighting, and ground
Another example supporting this is celebi and drapion. Celebi has many more weaknesses than drapion (7 compared to 1) but is used defensively to his resistances to grass, water, electric, fighting, and ground
haunter
Banned deucer.
That depends on which threat you're attempting to counter. Celebi has several weaknesses to common attacking types, nontheless it's still used too check a lot of Pokemon in OU, such as Machamp, Gyarados and various bulky water and ground types, and it does that job perfectly.
Drapion lacks important resistances, though. And it also lacks Celebi's 100\100\100 defences, its ability (natural cure) and recover, so that's a quite inadequate comparison.
Obviously what types a Pokemon is weak to/resists are important, you don't really want to be weak to Ice if you can avoid it. Yet as long as you can avoid getting hit by Ice Beam it won't be a big deal. As such having "complimentary weaknesses/resistances" is good.
For example Gyara's 4x electric weakness isn't so bad because he is at least neutral to Ice/Water/Grass which are common partner types to electric. Likewise while weak to Rock he is immune to Ground and resists Fighting, common partner attacks to Stone Edge. This eases prediction when attempting to switch in an gives more opportunities to do so.
On the other hand while Steels have a useful Rock resist, this is somewhat less useful thanks to their Ground and Fighting weakness as many Stone Edge users also run EQ or a Fighting-type move.
For example Gyara's 4x electric weakness isn't so bad because he is at least neutral to Ice/Water/Grass which are common partner types to electric. Likewise while weak to Rock he is immune to Ground and resists Fighting, common partner attacks to Stone Edge. This eases prediction when attempting to switch in an gives more opportunities to do so.
On the other hand while Steels have a useful Rock resist, this is somewhat less useful thanks to their Ground and Fighting weakness as many Stone Edge users also run EQ or a Fighting-type move.
I think Gliscor needs to be up there; he walls all physical only threats and can take on the likes of MixMenace which relies on Fire Blast for its special move
haunter
Banned deucer.
What? mix-Mence has draco meteor to deal with Gliscor.
I said MixMenence which relies on Fire Blast..
ehhh the whole point of MixMence is draco meteor though, which does min 94% to 252/0 gliscor (coming from 319 sp atk, no mixmence run much less than that)
haunter
Banned deucer.
Why should mix-Mence rely on fire blast when a full power draco meteor is an almost guaranteed OHKO on the standard Gliscor? The whole point of using mix-Mence is to fire off powerful draco meteors whitout being walled by common special walls like Blissey and Snorlax. Every mix-Mence carries draco meteor, so I see no reasons why the said Salamence should fire blast Gliscor. And anyway a life orb'd fire blast coming off 319 SpA does:
319 Atk vs 186 Def & 354 HP (120 Base Power): 192 - 226 (54.24% - 63.84%)
to a standard 252 HP \ 0 SpD Gliscor, so Gliscor doesn't even counter a mix-Mence "which relies on fire blast", as it's a sure 2hko with SR down.
No, I agree. Mostly because I see Rhyperior being more of an offensive Pokemon that can take more than a hit.
Pretty much, Gen IV is all about the resistances. Pokemon like Rotom-A are so appealing just because of them. We've already discussed Pokemon like Swampert. Hell, even Scizor is a decent Pokemon due to some of the nifty resistances it has (hello Dark, Dragon, Steel, Ghost, etc). Resistances can make up for the lack of actual solid defenses IMO.
If we want to discuss offensive Rhyperior vs. Swampert on the other hand mtr, you'd definitely lose if you took Swampert. :Naughty:
If resistances wouldn't be more important in this metagame, Steel wouldn't be nearly as common in OU as it is now. Sweepers raise offensive stats to numbers far exceeding sheer defensive numbers, making resistances key.
Regarding an effective defensive pair, just pair either of the Latis with a Steel-type-Lati@s both resists Fire, Fighting, Electric and Water while immune to Ground, and the Steel-type resists all other types, including all of Lati@s's weaknesses.
Now to another question-what stats matter more, HP or defenses? Take a look at Wailord-it has below average defeneses, but with a generic Bold EV spread takes physical hits better than Vaporeon, and with a Calm one special hits hit weaker than on BulkyGyara! An opposite example would be Dusknoir-it couldv'e been so much bulkier even with an average HP stat!
Regarding an effective defensive pair, just pair either of the Latis with a Steel-type-Lati@s both resists Fire, Fighting, Electric and Water while immune to Ground, and the Steel-type resists all other types, including all of Lati@s's weaknesses.
Now to another question-what stats matter more, HP or defenses? Take a look at Wailord-it has below average defeneses, but with a generic Bold EV spread takes physical hits better than Vaporeon, and with a Calm one special hits hit weaker than on BulkyGyara! An opposite example would be Dusknoir-it couldv'e been so much bulkier even with an average HP stat!