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Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
This is what I have a bit of a problem with.
I don't think anyone should be voting a Pokemon Uber because they don't like it.
Garchomp will have an impact, but it cannot 6-0 any OU team that expects it to be present.
On the contrary, if I'm allowed a Palkia and you're not it's combination of speed, bulk, power, and versatility makes resistance essentially impossible.
This is an example of firm basis for banning a Pokemon from standard play and Smogon's own Uber characteristics support me on this.
Garchomp, on the other hand, can do some interesting things to the game.
If the #1 threat laughs at Stealth Rock it might encourage Spikes/Toxic Spikes more so and give some SR weak but Spikes immune Pokemon a bit of a break.
He might encourage more varied weather teams in standard play since they deactivate Sand Veil and often give offensive impetus.
It's my view that we have a responsibility to accept how the game evolves and not try to lock it into the past.
In a sense, proliferation of Garchomp would be a welcome change from Gyarados, Salamence, Metagross, Tyranitar etc. that have been around forever.
Anyway, this was my original point: preferring the game without Garchomp is different from concluding that he is Uber because of raw power.
That has never been evident to me and even while I knew of the need to play very carefully against him, I never once considered that he didn't belong in the game.
So I think it's important to remain focused on the question that needs to be answered.
It's not whether the game is more/less fun with/without Garchomp,
or whether you like/dislike it, whether it can KO one or two Pokemon,
whether players' Garchomp frequently survive until the end of the game,
whether a well played Garchomp can be MVP, or whether it is very often used BUT
whether it sweep almost any team in the tier with "little effort.
I think the objective answer to such a question has to be 'No'.
However, if someone truly believes otherwise and can prove it there's not much I can say.
What should be attacked are arguments that have nothing to do with the criteria that have been established for Uber status.
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
here is my take on this:
this definition is pretty ambiguous in these parts: *common* battle conditions, *sweeping*, *significant* portion of teams, and *little* effort
for the purposes of my argument i will define them as such:
Common: The environment created in the suspect ladder
Sweeping: Fainting 2 or more pokemon in succession, or Fainting at least 3 if not in succession. I pick the number 2 since once pokemon represents about 1/6 of the team, and if it kills 2 things it has defeated "twice its worth". But this is too liberal for things not in succession, so that has been increased to 3. Similar to the old idea of 2 pokemon for 1.
Significant: "Sweeping" happens in at least half of all teams
Little Effort: 0-1 turns setup
The argument:
Common: Garchomp is paired up a lot with magnezone for steel elimination and either tyranitar for pursuit/sandstorm or scizor for pursuit. scizor and latias are the primary checks for garchomp.
Sweeping: Garchomp is more than capable of sweeping more than 2 pokemon on the opponents team, regardless of what version it is. the SD variants are more than capable, as its famed +2 outrages can put a dent in things that resist it, not to mention it has STAB on earthquake, which will hit for SE many steels that resist outrage, unless its scizor forretress bronzong or skarmory. STAB coverage imo is the #1 thing that makes chomp a beast. a +2 EQ averages over 100% to 252/0 scizor, which is one of the primary checks on teams for garchomp though it can only manage ~50% with bullet punch which is in many cases incapable of handling it, and 75% to forretress. of course latias is the other main check but latias is not invincible, and afterwards garchomp is more than capable of killing 2 or more things in succession. (and if latias comes in to revenge then that means chomp already killed something?)
the scarf variants can easily net more than 3 kills a game. just look at my log where chomp got 4/5 kills and i dont need to argue more.
Significant: the statistics are not out so i will have to make some assumptions here, if you feel that I have assumed to much please tell me.
There are 5 primary types of play: hyper offensive, bulky offense, balanced, semistall, stall. My observed breakdown is somewhat like:
HO: 25%
BO: 40%
B: 35%
SS: 5%
S: 5%
sorry for some of the abbreviations =/
Now stall/semistall compose maybe... 10% of teams i see? so they do not play a part in this argument.
hyper offense: lets look at some things that characterize hyper offensive. infernape metagross ttar azelf gyarados lucario? scarf set completely rapes hyper offense (as my log can show you). The scarf set can still put major holes in bulky offense. What is on a lot of bulky offense? nonscarf latias is destroyed (and under the "common" battle conditions many are life orbed to prevent being pursuited) most steels including jirachi and magnezone are destroyed. the offensive parts of a balanced team can be picked off easily by scarfchomp. I feel it is safe to say on at least half of teams a choice scarf garchomp can either net 2 kills in succession or get at least 3 kills.
While the SD variant is often prepared for, it has the potential to sweep which stuck it in uber in the first place?
Little Effort: either 0 turns with CB or CS, or 1 turn with SD. the sub-SD set takes more than 1, but we only need 1 set to be uber worthy for a poke to be considered uber.
yea so you can probably guess what my opinion is...
here is my take on this:
this definition is pretty ambiguous in these parts: *common* battle conditions, *sweeping*, *significant* portion of teams, and *little* effort
for the purposes of my argument i will define them as such:
Common: The environment created in the suspect ladder
Sweeping: Fainting 2 or more pokemon in succession, or Fainting at least 3 if not in succession. I pick the number 2 since once pokemon represents about 1/6 of the team, and if it kills 2 things it has defeated "twice its worth". But this is too liberal for things not in succession, so that has been increased to 3. Similar to the old idea of 2 pokemon for 1.
Significant: "Sweeping" happens in at least half of all teams
Little Effort: 0-1 turns setup
The argument:
Common: Garchomp is paired up a lot with magnezone for steel elimination and either tyranitar for pursuit/sandstorm or scizor for pursuit. scizor and latias are the primary checks for garchomp.
Sweeping: Garchomp is more than capable of sweeping more than 2 pokemon on the opponents team, regardless of what version it is. the SD variants are more than capable, as its famed +2 outrages can put a dent in things that resist it, not to mention it has STAB on earthquake, which will hit for SE many steels that resist outrage, unless its scizor forretress bronzong or skarmory. STAB coverage imo is the #1 thing that makes chomp a beast. a +2 EQ averages over 100% to 252/0 scizor, which is one of the primary checks on teams for garchomp though it can only manage ~50% with bullet punch which is in many cases incapable of handling it, and 75% to forretress. of course latias is the other main check but latias is not invincible, and afterwards garchomp is more than capable of killing 2 or more things in succession. (and if latias comes in to revenge then that means chomp already killed something?)
the scarf variants can easily net more than 3 kills a game. just look at my log where chomp got 4/5 kills and i dont need to argue more.
Significant: the statistics are not out so i will have to make some assumptions here, if you feel that I have assumed to much please tell me.
There are 5 primary types of play: hyper offensive, bulky offense, balanced, semistall, stall. My observed breakdown is somewhat like:
HO: 25%
BO: 40%
B: 35%
SS: 5%
S: 5%
sorry for some of the abbreviations =/
Now stall/semistall compose maybe... 10% of teams i see? so they do not play a part in this argument.
hyper offense: lets look at some things that characterize hyper offensive. infernape metagross ttar azelf gyarados lucario? scarf set completely rapes hyper offense (as my log can show you). The scarf set can still put major holes in bulky offense. What is on a lot of bulky offense? nonscarf latias is destroyed (and under the "common" battle conditions many are life orbed to prevent being pursuited) most steels including jirachi and magnezone are destroyed. the offensive parts of a balanced team can be picked off easily by scarfchomp. I feel it is safe to say on at least half of teams a choice scarf garchomp can either net 2 kills in succession or get at least 3 kills.
While the SD variant is often prepared for, it has the potential to sweep which stuck it in uber in the first place?
Little Effort: either 0 turns with CB or CS, or 1 turn with SD. the sub-SD set takes more than 1, but we only need 1 set to be uber worthy for a poke to be considered uber.
yea so you can probably guess what my opinion is...
Just like in the old days, Garchomp continues to dominate, both as a revenge killer or as a standalone sweeper. It has been literally on every single team I've faced and for good reason. Its incredible typing and pretty much perfect stat distribution (Sand Veil is really just an annoying bonus), makes it easy for players to just plug into their teams.
The current metagame is imo fast-paced and ridiculously centralized around Garchomp. In fact, from my own experience, a lot of my games have been decided on whoever sets Garchomp up the best, or rather, whoever does it faster. I've lost more times than I care to remember due to crucial misses on Garchomp, Sand Veil is very annoying but that's all it is. Provided I make it to the cut off and decide to vote Garchomp uber, it will definitely not be because of Sand Veil.
Tbh all the pro-Garchomp arguments I've been reading are either really biased or incredibly narrow i.e. they mostly focus on Sand Veil, as if that alone makes Garchomp uber. Accept it or not, Garchomp can and has swept through "prepared" teams, if you can even call it that because pretty much everything is 2HKO'd and those that aren't don't usually outspeed Garchomp and/or lack the power to OHKO him back. That is not to say he's uber, but rather he is a very real, a very dangerous threat. Something that can still break through no matter how much you prepare for it, realistically speaking since there are other threats to watch out for, you can't possibly dedicate more than half your team to check Garchomp and still expect to win consistently over a long period of time (okay maybe it's possible but definitely improbable I think).
As of the moment, I have no solid verdict on Garchomp yet. Afterall this is really just the beginning of the suspect test anyway, let's give it some more time before we dish out judgment.
As for Latias, we've all had months of experience with her and she has never (as far as I know and experienced) proven to be broken. She is definitely a top tier threat, nothing more. Also to whoever brought up the fact that she doesn't have any real counters, well all I can say is that the same holds true for other threats like Salamence, Lucario, Gengar, etc. There's no surefire way of dealing with each but they can all be stopped once you know the set their running (also I'm saying it now, this does NOT apply to Garchomp).
I haven't played with Manaphy enough so I'll refrain from commenting on it.
Thanks take care ^^.
The current metagame is imo fast-paced and ridiculously centralized around Garchomp. In fact, from my own experience, a lot of my games have been decided on whoever sets Garchomp up the best, or rather, whoever does it faster. I've lost more times than I care to remember due to crucial misses on Garchomp, Sand Veil is very annoying but that's all it is. Provided I make it to the cut off and decide to vote Garchomp uber, it will definitely not be because of Sand Veil.
Tbh all the pro-Garchomp arguments I've been reading are either really biased or incredibly narrow i.e. they mostly focus on Sand Veil, as if that alone makes Garchomp uber. Accept it or not, Garchomp can and has swept through "prepared" teams, if you can even call it that because pretty much everything is 2HKO'd and those that aren't don't usually outspeed Garchomp and/or lack the power to OHKO him back. That is not to say he's uber, but rather he is a very real, a very dangerous threat. Something that can still break through no matter how much you prepare for it, realistically speaking since there are other threats to watch out for, you can't possibly dedicate more than half your team to check Garchomp and still expect to win consistently over a long period of time (okay maybe it's possible but definitely improbable I think).
As of the moment, I have no solid verdict on Garchomp yet. Afterall this is really just the beginning of the suspect test anyway, let's give it some more time before we dish out judgment.
As for Latias, we've all had months of experience with her and she has never (as far as I know and experienced) proven to be broken. She is definitely a top tier threat, nothing more. Also to whoever brought up the fact that she doesn't have any real counters, well all I can say is that the same holds true for other threats like Salamence, Lucario, Gengar, etc. There's no surefire way of dealing with each but they can all be stopped once you know the set their running (also I'm saying it now, this does NOT apply to Garchomp).
I haven't played with Manaphy enough so I'll refrain from commenting on it.
Thanks take care ^^.
My thoughts after a couple of days of testing:
Garchomp- It's without a doubt the star of suspect. It's a great revenge killer, that's pretty much all I've seen that was really amazing. SD chomp is getting rocked by latias, scarf chomps, and is as good as dead once it outrages. Sand veil can be irritating at times, but not often enough to influence my overall opinion. Chomp is like mence without the SR weak, but lacks versatility (speaking of, mence has almost completely vanished). I'm not even packing any steels so far and chomp isn't that big a problem. Maybe chain chomp will start to show up over the next few days and change this. The general strategy is to bait the outrage and kill it.
Latias- This thing has been the biggest problem so far for me. Specs draco meteors are a pain in general. It also happens to be revenging everything in the suspect metagame, stopping sweeps almost as well as, if not better than, chomp.
Manaphy- A huge bust. Too slow to really sweep and cune CMs better. I don't think manaphy has killed any of my pokemon so far. It's extremely mediocre in the suspect meta.
Garchomp- It's without a doubt the star of suspect. It's a great revenge killer, that's pretty much all I've seen that was really amazing. SD chomp is getting rocked by latias, scarf chomps, and is as good as dead once it outrages. Sand veil can be irritating at times, but not often enough to influence my overall opinion. Chomp is like mence without the SR weak, but lacks versatility (speaking of, mence has almost completely vanished). I'm not even packing any steels so far and chomp isn't that big a problem. Maybe chain chomp will start to show up over the next few days and change this. The general strategy is to bait the outrage and kill it.
Latias- This thing has been the biggest problem so far for me. Specs draco meteors are a pain in general. It also happens to be revenging everything in the suspect metagame, stopping sweeps almost as well as, if not better than, chomp.
Manaphy- A huge bust. Too slow to really sweep and cune CMs better. I don't think manaphy has killed any of my pokemon so far. It's extremely mediocre in the suspect meta.
'
I agree. SubSalac Chomp is definitely the best Chomp in my experience. It can come in on a ton of threats, like rotom-a, sub as they wow, swords dance as they break the sub, sub down to salac, then sweep.
Garchomp is a beast with SS support., so that is why is use this T-tar lure with him.
Tyranitar @ ExpertBelt
Hasty
252 Atk/ Usure of other EVs, but the other are in SpAtk and Spd
-Crunch
-Fire Blast
-Aqua Tail
-Stone Edge
Sets up ss, lures in those steel types(including scizor), by bulffing an choice item and beats them all. It pairs up so nicely with Sub Salac Chomp and is what makes him so successful for me.
Anyone who missed my log before deletion, it showed Garchomp getting flinched by Jirachi's Iron Head three times in a row and accomplishing absolutely nothing. Not sure why it was deleted, not like people posting logs of Garchomp getting super-Sand Veil hax is any more conducive to discussion, but whatever.
Anyway, quote from IRC: <RB-Golbat> show me a log where it is easily stopped without hax
Show me a log where Garchomp easily sweeps without "hax." Heck, Jirachi is significantly more likely to hax its way through pokemon than Garchomp is -- even three straight flinches is more likely than a single miss induced by Sand Veil against a 100% accurate attack -- and it doesn't even require T-Tar/Hippo to be in play. Let's ban Jirachi. Maybe Gyarados too, it flinches 20% of the time with its primary attack. Both of them even happen to be more bulky than Garchomp and at least Jirachi resists SR. :P
You know what happens when Garchomp isn't "haxy?" It usually goes something like this, at least in my experience:
1) Switch-in! Roar, scary Garchomp!
2a) Opponent flees in terror at the bad matchup! They send in something that doesn't die in one boosted hit and has an effective attack against Garchomp. Garchomp uses Swords Dance.
3a) Garchomp cripples opposing pokemon, gets crippled back. Garchomp cleans up next turn.
-or-
2b) Opponent isn't phazed by Garchomp. Perhaps they can take a hit pretty well or they're packing Ice Beam and Garchomp can't really find a more opportune time to get in. Garchomp gets crippled but survives the attack (assuming Yache) and uses Swords Dance.
3b) Garchomp is faster and OHKOs with a boosted attack. Unfortunately, this often requires using Outrage against the bulkier pokemon and sets it up for the guaranteed revenge kill.
4) Opponent switches in their new pokémon. Garchomp gets revenge killed.
End result: Garchomp trades.
That's just regarding Garchomp's usual SD sets. Garchomp can play other roles as well (mostly CB and Scarf) but those are less sweeper-oriented movesets and overall tend to be easier to stop. Factoring in Sand Veil that's a simple trade about 2/3 of the time, hardly an easy sweep. (Even so, Sand Stream is only running about 50% of the time according to past data.) There are also other ways to efficiently curb Garchomp's sweeping potential, the two most accessible ways being liberal use of Reflect or using Toxic Spikes. Those aren't even affected by Sand Veil!
Typically in that scenario, Garchomp is gonna get Ice Beamed for like 70% while boosting (to +2), do like 90% to Swampert and die, leaving Swampert crippled (essentially a trade) but ultimately the victor. If you're using Sub, the same thing happens, except you do 50-75% damage to yourself spamming Sub before you get the miss you're looking for instead of eating the attack directly. Then they break the Sub while you boost, Swampert gets crippled but ultimately still wins. Garchomp can "win" with Outrage instead but then you're locked in for an easy revenge kill anyway.
It can come in on Rotom-A, Sub as they Reflect, Swords Dance as they switch to Skarmory, and get phazed away while dealing minimal damage. SubSalac (SD) Garchomp doesn't even carry a Fire move.
Really, I think this is a good example of somebody who just doesn't know how to properly respond to the situation. Garchomp doesn't dominate this scenario by any means. Rotom-A using WoW is okay I guess, though Reflect is sorely underrated, but it shouldn't be using it against an active Garchomp if it does have it. WoW is only 60% accurate if Sand Veil is up and Substitute Garchomp is not uncommon. Garchomp can't OHKO Rotom-A unbuffed, so it should use Shadow Ball to force Garchomp's health down via Sub spamming. If it's uneasy trying its luck against Sand Veil or lacks the SpA to deal significant damage, it should simply switch out.
Insulating your team against Garchomp? It's as simple as Rotom-A using Reflect over WoW more often. Don't Tbolt willy-nilly if you're running Trickscarf Rotom (and haven't dumped it on the opponent yet) and be very careful with Specs Jolteon. Don't dilly-dally if Garchomp forces your hand, just hit it in the mouth to increase your odds of getting a 1:1 trade instead of losing multiple pokemon. If you're more experienced, keep in mind that Garchomp doesn't tend to Earthquake off the bat in fear of giving a free switch-in to Ground immunes (especially Latias) -- don't let Garchomp immediately scare out your Metagross, get in some free damage while they try to goad you into switching and getting their desired setup. Then you can try to predict when they'll finally give up to Earthquake you and switch in your Latias anyway. :P If they're packing Sub, they probably lack a Fire move, making Skarmory and Bronzong complete counters and Scizor/Forretress a strong switch-in.
tl;dr - Garchomp is plenty manageable with good pkmn experience.
Anyway, quote from IRC: <RB-Golbat> show me a log where it is easily stopped without hax
Show me a log where Garchomp easily sweeps without "hax." Heck, Jirachi is significantly more likely to hax its way through pokemon than Garchomp is -- even three straight flinches is more likely than a single miss induced by Sand Veil against a 100% accurate attack -- and it doesn't even require T-Tar/Hippo to be in play. Let's ban Jirachi. Maybe Gyarados too, it flinches 20% of the time with its primary attack. Both of them even happen to be more bulky than Garchomp and at least Jirachi resists SR. :P
You know what happens when Garchomp isn't "haxy?" It usually goes something like this, at least in my experience:
1) Switch-in! Roar, scary Garchomp!
2a) Opponent flees in terror at the bad matchup! They send in something that doesn't die in one boosted hit and has an effective attack against Garchomp. Garchomp uses Swords Dance.
3a) Garchomp cripples opposing pokemon, gets crippled back. Garchomp cleans up next turn.
-or-
2b) Opponent isn't phazed by Garchomp. Perhaps they can take a hit pretty well or they're packing Ice Beam and Garchomp can't really find a more opportune time to get in. Garchomp gets crippled but survives the attack (assuming Yache) and uses Swords Dance.
3b) Garchomp is faster and OHKOs with a boosted attack. Unfortunately, this often requires using Outrage against the bulkier pokemon and sets it up for the guaranteed revenge kill.
4) Opponent switches in their new pokémon. Garchomp gets revenge killed.
End result: Garchomp trades.
That's just regarding Garchomp's usual SD sets. Garchomp can play other roles as well (mostly CB and Scarf) but those are less sweeper-oriented movesets and overall tend to be easier to stop. Factoring in Sand Veil that's a simple trade about 2/3 of the time, hardly an easy sweep. (Even so, Sand Stream is only running about 50% of the time according to past data.) There are also other ways to efficiently curb Garchomp's sweeping potential, the two most accessible ways being liberal use of Reflect or using Toxic Spikes. Those aren't even affected by Sand Veil!
Typical? It dodged two Ice Beams the moment it switched in to set up (4% chance), against Swampert of all things. It's a fairly typical case of my B scenario as above. It then dodged Scizor's Bullet Punch at the end as well. On average, Garchomp dodges less than one attack per battle assuming a generous 3HKO against it, maybe ~1.5 attacks if you spam Substitute trolling for a miss. (Not two in a row and three total!) Keep in mind, that's also only with Sand Stream active; it's not automatic.
Typically in that scenario, Garchomp is gonna get Ice Beamed for like 70% while boosting (to +2), do like 90% to Swampert and die, leaving Swampert crippled (essentially a trade) but ultimately the victor. If you're using Sub, the same thing happens, except you do 50-75% damage to yourself spamming Sub before you get the miss you're looking for instead of eating the attack directly. Then they break the Sub while you boost, Swampert gets crippled but ultimately still wins. Garchomp can "win" with Outrage instead but then you're locked in for an easy revenge kill anyway.
Sorry, didn't read this post before. Late edit.
It can come in on Rotom-A, Sub as they Reflect, Swords Dance as they switch to Skarmory, and get phazed away while dealing minimal damage. SubSalac (SD) Garchomp doesn't even carry a Fire move.
Really, I think this is a good example of somebody who just doesn't know how to properly respond to the situation. Garchomp doesn't dominate this scenario by any means. Rotom-A using WoW is okay I guess, though Reflect is sorely underrated, but it shouldn't be using it against an active Garchomp if it does have it. WoW is only 60% accurate if Sand Veil is up and Substitute Garchomp is not uncommon. Garchomp can't OHKO Rotom-A unbuffed, so it should use Shadow Ball to force Garchomp's health down via Sub spamming. If it's uneasy trying its luck against Sand Veil or lacks the SpA to deal significant damage, it should simply switch out.
Insulating your team against Garchomp? It's as simple as Rotom-A using Reflect over WoW more often. Don't Tbolt willy-nilly if you're running Trickscarf Rotom (and haven't dumped it on the opponent yet) and be very careful with Specs Jolteon. Don't dilly-dally if Garchomp forces your hand, just hit it in the mouth to increase your odds of getting a 1:1 trade instead of losing multiple pokemon. If you're more experienced, keep in mind that Garchomp doesn't tend to Earthquake off the bat in fear of giving a free switch-in to Ground immunes (especially Latias) -- don't let Garchomp immediately scare out your Metagross, get in some free damage while they try to goad you into switching and getting their desired setup. Then you can try to predict when they'll finally give up to Earthquake you and switch in your Latias anyway. :P If they're packing Sub, they probably lack a Fire move, making Skarmory and Bronzong complete counters and Scizor/Forretress a strong switch-in.
tl;dr - Garchomp is plenty manageable with good pkmn experience.
Unfortuetly, this is 1: Rare, 2: Rarer with Sand Veil up, 3: Impossible against Scarfchomp. Jirachi needs to flinch tons of times to sweep a team. Garchomp only needs Sand Veil once, against the right attack, to go 'LOL' at the counter, and sweep. Especially Explosion. That results in a free kill.
This is a great set. If you haven't done so yourself, I'd recommend using such a Manaphy. Of course, check potential counters, such as Blissey and Vaporeon, first.
All in all, suspect play has been pretty exciting for me. Like everyone said, Garchomp is just everywhere. We'll see what happens soon...
Climbing the leaderboard today with a new version of the stall team I posted a few months back. It's been working tremendously well with the changes I made to suit the metagame. Spamming Protect on Toxic and Wish users has been working fantastically well, as I can read the game so much better.
haunter
Banned deucer.
I used that set during the Manaphy suspect test, back in April. It's very powerful if used correctly but I've always found it pretty difficult to set-up. With surf as your only attacking move you give Latias and Garchomp the chance to set up on you and Gyarados can use it as set up fodder as well. I've faced a pair of cro-Phy today and all you have to do to beat that set is to predict the turn they use rest and switch in Tyranitar to cancel the rain (it's not that hard when they're low on health). It's definitely a good set, especially against stall teams as you can easily out stall them (even Vaporeon can lose a PP war against cro-Phy), but in a such offensive metagame I believe that the sub+tail glow set is more effective.
Incidentally, today I've faced the first stall team out of 25+ battles. I my experience seems that hyper offense is the current trend on the suspect ladder, almost every team I face has 2 or more set up sweepers (SD Garchomp is literally everywhere, SD Lucario is very common as well and so is DD Gyarados) a suicide lead and a 2 or more revenge killers (scarf-Latias\Garchomp and CB Scizor are the most common from what I've seen).
Speaking of Latias, scarf-Latias is really valuable in this metagame. It can check Gyarados, salac-Garchomp and scarf-Chomp (assuming that sand veil doesn't ruin your plans), Manaphy and other random threats like LO Starmie and Infernape. Being pursuit weak is disappointing, but with a SD Lucario\Scizor ready to set up, losing her to a pursuit from the likes of TTar or Scizor can, sometimes, be an advantage.
Although this is a good set, this set will by no means make Manaphy Uber. Manaphy needs tons of team support to pull this off well- Toxic Spikes, TTar trappers, something to kill Latias, something to handle strong physical attacks, etc etc etc. The fact that this guy cannot singlehandedly pull off a sweep with this set, and in fact could let other stuff set up, makes this set fail the Uber offensive characteristics.
I tried out the Mono-attacking CMer as well. He is honestly, like everyone else is saying, really difficult to set up. However, it's also ridiculously hard to kill since it essentially has only 1 weakness - Electric. Since Grass Knot is the main Grass move in OU, Grass basically turns from a weakness into a resistance, because Grass Knot is only 20 BP on Manaphy.
The mono-attacking set is a really good set once it gets going. But if the opponent keeps a Water-type hidden, like EB or LO Starmie, Manaphy is going to be in quite a bit of trouble. However, this is partly why I don't like mono-attacking sets very much besides SubCM Latias.
However, this Manaphy set is sure as hell better than Crocune, which gives it something more over Suicune. Not only does Manaphy not have to rely on RestTalk, but Rain Dance also effectively acts as another Calm Mind, which allows Manaphy to hit a lot harder. Suicune still does a lot of the defensive stuff better though due to having Roar and better defenses.
After having used and played against Manaphy, I'm definitely leaning towards OU. Same with Latias.
I'm honestly not sure about Garchomp though. I really want Garchomp to be in OU as well, but it seems like whenever I use a team without Scizor, it's much more difficult to beat the Salac version (especially since it usually gets Sand Veil hax). I'm still leaning towards OU though, because often the biggest reason for me losing to it is Sand Veil, since the SubSalac versions are always under Sand. I don't see anything about hax in the uber characteristics, so I don't believe I can confidently vote Garchomp as uber in that way.
I'll edit in more of my thoughts when I get back.
EDIT: Another reason why Mono-attacking Manaphy is better than Crocune is that it can beat Blissey 1-on-1 with relative ease. +6 Suicune without any Sp Atk EVs can't even come close to 2HKOing Blissey, but a +6 Manaphy with the same EVs and rain can easily 2HKO, and doesn't even have to Rest to get rid of status as long rain is up.
The mono-attacking set is a really good set once it gets going. But if the opponent keeps a Water-type hidden, like EB or LO Starmie, Manaphy is going to be in quite a bit of trouble. However, this is partly why I don't like mono-attacking sets very much besides SubCM Latias.
However, this Manaphy set is sure as hell better than Crocune, which gives it something more over Suicune. Not only does Manaphy not have to rely on RestTalk, but Rain Dance also effectively acts as another Calm Mind, which allows Manaphy to hit a lot harder. Suicune still does a lot of the defensive stuff better though due to having Roar and better defenses.
After having used and played against Manaphy, I'm definitely leaning towards OU. Same with Latias.
I'm honestly not sure about Garchomp though. I really want Garchomp to be in OU as well, but it seems like whenever I use a team without Scizor, it's much more difficult to beat the Salac version (especially since it usually gets Sand Veil hax). I'm still leaning towards OU though, because often the biggest reason for me losing to it is Sand Veil, since the SubSalac versions are always under Sand. I don't see anything about hax in the uber characteristics, so I don't believe I can confidently vote Garchomp as uber in that way.
I'll edit in more of my thoughts when I get back.
EDIT: Another reason why Mono-attacking Manaphy is better than Crocune is that it can beat Blissey 1-on-1 with relative ease. +6 Suicune without any Sp Atk EVs can't even come close to 2HKOing Blissey, but a +6 Manaphy with the same EVs and rain can easily 2HKO, and doesn't even have to Rest to get rid of status as long rain is up.
So this is my seconde "testpost" here.
Playing Suspect is realy amazing imo. I've tested most of the Garchomp sets and I can say that Garchomp with Haban Berry is imo the best one.
Garchomp @ Haban Berry
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
~ Dragon Claw
~ Outrage
~ Earthquake
~ Fire Fang
Maybe Yache Beery could be an alternatif to Haban Berry. Dragon Claw is good STAB move on Garchomp. Latias get OHKOt - 2HKOt. Slaamence get OHKOt. Earthquake is for Heatran and Other Fire Pokemon like Infernape. Fire Fang is realy good on this set because in Suspect most people switche in Scizor in Garchomp. A lot of people don't know that Garchomp can also be played with Fire Fang. Full HP Garchomp is a good Counter against Scizor.
Also Metagross and other Steels can be countered by Fire Fang.
In my last testpost I say that Jolteon is a very good "Suspect-Counter", know I want to say that Magnezone is also a very good Pokemon in Suspect. Scizor is used often in teams in suspect. Magnezone trap Scizor with his Ability Magnet Pull and could kill it with Thunderbolt. Garchomp can also be countered by Hidden Power Ice. But it isn't good to switch Magnezone into Garchomp, because an Earthquake of Garchomp make an OHKO on Magnezone. It is good if you are in substitute and also have Magne Rise use, than Magnezone is good against Garchomp.
Playing Suspect is realy amazing imo. I've tested most of the Garchomp sets and I can say that Garchomp with Haban Berry is imo the best one.
Garchomp @ Haban Berry
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
~ Dragon Claw
~ Outrage
~ Earthquake
~ Fire Fang
Maybe Yache Beery could be an alternatif to Haban Berry. Dragon Claw is good STAB move on Garchomp. Latias get OHKOt - 2HKOt. Slaamence get OHKOt. Earthquake is for Heatran and Other Fire Pokemon like Infernape. Fire Fang is realy good on this set because in Suspect most people switche in Scizor in Garchomp. A lot of people don't know that Garchomp can also be played with Fire Fang. Full HP Garchomp is a good Counter against Scizor.
Also Metagross and other Steels can be countered by Fire Fang.
In my last testpost I say that Jolteon is a very good "Suspect-Counter", know I want to say that Magnezone is also a very good Pokemon in Suspect. Scizor is used often in teams in suspect. Magnezone trap Scizor with his Ability Magnet Pull and could kill it with Thunderbolt. Garchomp can also be countered by Hidden Power Ice. But it isn't good to switch Magnezone into Garchomp, because an Earthquake of Garchomp make an OHKO on Magnezone. It is good if you are in substitute and also have Magne Rise use, than Magnezone is good against Garchomp.
It didnt have to though. And the bullet punch dodge was completely irellevant. It was faster than everything and had a sub up.
If it didnt dodge the first two ice beams it could have dodged any two or any one of the icebeams and the bullet punch. That is a 40% chance. Which isnt particularly haxy at all. I dont know why you would assume a generous 3hko per battle when we are talking about sub chomp, which will always be 4 or 5hkoed.
Also your examples are assuming that Swampert is already out against Garchomp. In Haunter's example Pert switched into Chomp. It isnt hard to force a switch with Garchomp.. Especially one that is indistinguishable from scarfchomp until it uses sub or SD.
Yes that Garchomp is countered by Skarmory (unless it's the last pokemon). But not very much else..
Have a nice day.
just for some math lessons for people quoting percentages in this thread, here you go.
assuming your opponent is using 5 100% accuracy attacks to kill your chomp (4 for subs 1 later)
0 misses- 32.8%
1 miss- 41.0% next attack missing is 20%
2 misses-20.5%
3 misses-5.1%
4 misses-0.6%
Lucky Lucky Bastard- 0.032%
So the chance of you subbing down and getting 2 free turns is simply the chance of 2+ misses happening PLUS the chance of 1 miss and then the 6th attack misses (41.0 * 0.2)
All in all, garchomp has a 34.4% chance of getting two or more free turns and a 32.8 % chance of only getting one free turn. (This assumes leftovers as items and that Garchomp switches in after a kill while stealth rocks are set up)
assuming your opponent is using 5 100% accuracy attacks to kill your chomp (4 for subs 1 later)
0 misses- 32.8%
1 miss- 41.0% next attack missing is 20%
2 misses-20.5%
3 misses-5.1%
4 misses-0.6%
Lucky Lucky Bastard- 0.032%
So the chance of you subbing down and getting 2 free turns is simply the chance of 2+ misses happening PLUS the chance of 1 miss and then the 6th attack misses (41.0 * 0.2)
All in all, garchomp has a 34.4% chance of getting two or more free turns and a 32.8 % chance of only getting one free turn. (This assumes leftovers as items and that Garchomp switches in after a kill while stealth rocks are set up)
If adamant, I would switch SD for outrage.
If jolly, I would switch SD for sword dance.
Either way I would put in SD for a haban berry abusing chomp
I've been playing Shoddy for a couple of hours and here is my experience with the three suspects:
Manaphy: It's usually going to be setting up something. (ex: rain dance, calm mind) that free turn of set up should allow you to switch to a counter such as empoleon,salamence, blissey, etc. Let's also not forget that to activate hydration you'll need rain however, there are many pokemon who can take advantage of this (most notably Kingdra who I believe wipes it out quit easily) Manaphy may have a cool ability but with all the tyranitars and swift swimmers stomping around OU I just don't see much use for it. Not to mention it suffers from a 4-move syndrome. It does, however, get some cool moves like: grass knot, signal beam, u-turn, knock off,dual screens,heal bell, and heart swap.
Garchomp: Unless you have 2-3 pokemon on your team who can take it out, it's going to crush you. If we were to allow it back in OU it would just cause an overcentralization. I love garchomp, and I would really like to use it but I just feel that it's too powerful.
Latias: OU. It's really not that hard to take down if you've got a good wall or a scarf user. Scarf latias' are even less impressive since it really doesn't take much prediction to hamper its ability. Tyranitar practically laughs at the sight of this thing. Pursuit+Latias=dead
That's just how I feel. Feel free to comment/rant/smash head on keyboard.
Manaphy: It's usually going to be setting up something. (ex: rain dance, calm mind) that free turn of set up should allow you to switch to a counter such as empoleon,salamence, blissey, etc. Let's also not forget that to activate hydration you'll need rain however, there are many pokemon who can take advantage of this (most notably Kingdra who I believe wipes it out quit easily) Manaphy may have a cool ability but with all the tyranitars and swift swimmers stomping around OU I just don't see much use for it. Not to mention it suffers from a 4-move syndrome. It does, however, get some cool moves like: grass knot, signal beam, u-turn, knock off,dual screens,heal bell, and heart swap.
Garchomp: Unless you have 2-3 pokemon on your team who can take it out, it's going to crush you. If we were to allow it back in OU it would just cause an overcentralization. I love garchomp, and I would really like to use it but I just feel that it's too powerful.
Latias: OU. It's really not that hard to take down if you've got a good wall or a scarf user. Scarf latias' are even less impressive since it really doesn't take much prediction to hamper its ability. Tyranitar practically laughs at the sight of this thing. Pursuit+Latias=dead
That's just how I feel. Feel free to comment/rant/smash head on keyboard.
The SPrinkLer
Banned deucer.
Oh wow I tried this with the same team I used for version 1, and I did horrible. I need to get a new team and learn the metagame quick.
Yeah, sorry I said I wasnt entirely confident in my maths. It was very late at night when I did it.. But the probabilities for the various outcomes in the Haunter log were actually (red indicates an outright victory):
[edit] - sorry I fucked these up again..
38% Pert takes a single-SDed eq and KOs Garchomp.
35% Swampert is KOed by Garchomp and is revenge killed by Scizor. This allows Haunter to set up his Magnezone (which I am assuming he has) with a substitute or any other steel resistant pokemon.
7% Swampert is KOed by Garchomp who is within KO range of Scizors attack, but avoids the bullet punch. It then sweeps the team.
2% Swampert is KOed by Garchomp who is within KO range of Scizors attack, but then avoids the bullet punch and KOs Scizor. It fails to sweep the team because -FREE GARCHOMP-'s Garchomp hits haunter's garchomp with an attack before Haunter hits -FREE GARCHOMP-'s (I am assuming FG didnt have a scarfchomp).
15% Pert is KOed and Garchomp is alive with a swords dance and a substitute up. Garchomp sweeps the remaining pokemon (note this would be higher had Haunter attacked to 2hko Pert rather than swords dancing a second time).
3% Pert is KOed and Garchomp is alive with a swords dance and a substitute up. Garchomp kills Scizor and possibly Magnezone, before dying to FG's Garchomp.
That's a 22% chance of outright victory (with very little effort whatsoever), and many of the outcomes leave Haunter in an extremely strong position, while none of them are particularly bad. This would be 27% were it not for the fact that FG also has a garchomp.
These are approximations just to make calculating them easier, but I am confident they are accurate to the nearest 1%. They include CHes and any other variable I can think of.
Have a nice day.
[edit] - sorry I fucked these up again..
38% Pert takes a single-SDed eq and KOs Garchomp.
35% Swampert is KOed by Garchomp and is revenge killed by Scizor. This allows Haunter to set up his Magnezone (which I am assuming he has) with a substitute or any other steel resistant pokemon.
7% Swampert is KOed by Garchomp who is within KO range of Scizors attack, but avoids the bullet punch. It then sweeps the team.
2% Swampert is KOed by Garchomp who is within KO range of Scizors attack, but then avoids the bullet punch and KOs Scizor. It fails to sweep the team because -FREE GARCHOMP-'s Garchomp hits haunter's garchomp with an attack before Haunter hits -FREE GARCHOMP-'s (I am assuming FG didnt have a scarfchomp).
15% Pert is KOed and Garchomp is alive with a swords dance and a substitute up. Garchomp sweeps the remaining pokemon (note this would be higher had Haunter attacked to 2hko Pert rather than swords dancing a second time).
3% Pert is KOed and Garchomp is alive with a swords dance and a substitute up. Garchomp kills Scizor and possibly Magnezone, before dying to FG's Garchomp.
That's a 22% chance of outright victory (with very little effort whatsoever), and many of the outcomes leave Haunter in an extremely strong position, while none of them are particularly bad. This would be 27% were it not for the fact that FG also has a garchomp.
These are approximations just to make calculating them easier, but I am confident they are accurate to the nearest 1%. They include CHes and any other variable I can think of.
Have a nice day.
I agree with this, and the only way you can really have quasi-objectivity is if you do it on a statistical basis; e.g. if a certain pokemon becomes used on more than x% of teams in a particular format, it hits the banlist. Like how you exclude things from UU (only in that case, you're a little bit weird because you ban a pokemon in one format because of how popular it is in a different format).
Another possible statistical criterium are:
- If a pokemon is only consistently countered by X (probably 1) non-dedicated counters (i.e. with sets that are not designed to kill that pokemon and only that pokemon), it is banned. This one is a little hazier, but the definition of a 'counter' is pretty well developed.
Basically, what you really want to try and avoid is a situation where everyone is forced to use a particular pokemon, or waste a slot exclusively to beating that pokemon. That way you increase variety in teams and maintain balance.
Of course, with a system like this, you have unwanted casualties; on the basis of popularity-exclusion, Scizor would probably fall to Ubers simply because everyone is using some build or another of it.
EDIT: Also, deluge, 'fun' is pretty much the only reason you have a tier system at all. The only reason you would try and enforce a banlist is to force the metagame into a more balanced state, and the only reason to do this is to maintain variety and a 'fun' level. You ban because it's not fun when everyone has to use the same pokemon.
haunter
Banned deucer.
This is not the way we make bans. As stated before, we don't ban Pokemon because we don't like them in a given metagame or because those Pokemon are over-centralizing the metagame. Over-centralization is not a clue of a Pokemon uber\BL status. If it was, then Scizor would have been tiered as uber a while ago.
The only parameters we use to tier a Pokemon are the uber\BL characteristics defined in this thread. If a Pokemon fullfills one or more of those characteristics, then it's removed from the metagame. In fact, before stage 3, we had to submit a paragraph to explain which criterias we were going to use when judging a Pokemon status and we had to provide reasonings behind our choices. I know that during stage 3 we're not going to write any paragraph, but I really invite anyone involved in the suspect process to take a look at the thread "Portrait of an Uber" (linked above) and to vote accordingly to the uber characteristics listed there (I'm talking to the various new users who use to post here).
@Hipmonlee: just for completeness, I just watched that battle as a spectator, I was not playing it. And anyway, back to that log, my point was exactly this:
ultimifier said:
Whew - finally made it to 1500 ranking+! Anyway, time for me to rant on my thoughts about the suspects at the moment.
Garchomp - I'm completely undecided on this guy. My initial thought was that I saw Garchomp (particularly Sub+SD+Salac variants) sweeping teams if a reasonably bulky Steel-type (or anything that can take a +2 attack from Garchomp and do around 75%+ damage to it) wasn't around. On the other hand, just to test this, I dumped only one Steel-type, Metagross, into my team and made it a lead. So far, I've been doing particularly well against Garchomp, and this sends me in doubt: is this thing really Uber? Not having Skarmory/Bronzong isn't the end of the world, you know. On the other hand, there's always that obnoxious "Veil Hax" that occurs when sandstorm is brewing. The fact that Garchomp is bulky enough to take some Ice-type attacks and survive with 1% (yes this has happened) - 8% to possibly activate Salac doesn't make it any less threatening, either. Therefore, I'm currently in deep thought about its eventual fate.
Latias - OU: it's easy to take down. I have, however, been using a set that certainly makes it unpredictable; I might share this later. One thing I've noticed is that the Tyranitar in Suspect are almost always never Choiced, ranging from Substitute users, Expert Belt users, or users of other unorthodox items. Anyway, until I find that Latias OHKOes more opponents than typically expected, I'm leaning towards Latias in OU.
Manaphy - Uber-ish: TAY's Calm Mind Manaphy, which I've been putting to good use, is nothing short of awesome. Call it hard to set up, call it Garchomp fodder, but I call it amazing. The reasons for this are simple: 1) Electric-type physical moves are uncommon. With heavy physical defensive investment, Manaphy can take quite a beating (plus, Garchomp's Outrage does around 34%...). 2) Grass Knot seems to be the main choice of offense employed by Grass-types. After a few Calm Minds, Manaphy is well on its way to taking little-to-nothing from a wide range of attacks. 3) Hydration + Rest + Rain Dance means I won't have to switch out at all. Tyranitar is annoying, but I get by. Of course, Manaphy is a little lacking on type coverage, but at +6 SpA and with rain, Surf 2HKOes Blissey and pretty much everything else anyway. Tail Glow Manaphy is also quite devastating, tearing holes through many Pokemon. As of now I'm considering banishing Manaphy to Uber altogether, but who knows; things change, right?
That's it for now. Please refrain from flaming me as these are only my opinions, haha.
Garchomp - I'm completely undecided on this guy. My initial thought was that I saw Garchomp (particularly Sub+SD+Salac variants) sweeping teams if a reasonably bulky Steel-type (or anything that can take a +2 attack from Garchomp and do around 75%+ damage to it) wasn't around. On the other hand, just to test this, I dumped only one Steel-type, Metagross, into my team and made it a lead. So far, I've been doing particularly well against Garchomp, and this sends me in doubt: is this thing really Uber? Not having Skarmory/Bronzong isn't the end of the world, you know. On the other hand, there's always that obnoxious "Veil Hax" that occurs when sandstorm is brewing. The fact that Garchomp is bulky enough to take some Ice-type attacks and survive with 1% (yes this has happened) - 8% to possibly activate Salac doesn't make it any less threatening, either. Therefore, I'm currently in deep thought about its eventual fate.
Latias - OU: it's easy to take down. I have, however, been using a set that certainly makes it unpredictable; I might share this later. One thing I've noticed is that the Tyranitar in Suspect are almost always never Choiced, ranging from Substitute users, Expert Belt users, or users of other unorthodox items. Anyway, until I find that Latias OHKOes more opponents than typically expected, I'm leaning towards Latias in OU.
Manaphy - Uber-ish: TAY's Calm Mind Manaphy, which I've been putting to good use, is nothing short of awesome. Call it hard to set up, call it Garchomp fodder, but I call it amazing. The reasons for this are simple: 1) Electric-type physical moves are uncommon. With heavy physical defensive investment, Manaphy can take quite a beating (plus, Garchomp's Outrage does around 34%...). 2) Grass Knot seems to be the main choice of offense employed by Grass-types. After a few Calm Minds, Manaphy is well on its way to taking little-to-nothing from a wide range of attacks. 3) Hydration + Rest + Rain Dance means I won't have to switch out at all. Tyranitar is annoying, but I get by. Of course, Manaphy is a little lacking on type coverage, but at +6 SpA and with rain, Surf 2HKOes Blissey and pretty much everything else anyway. Tail Glow Manaphy is also quite devastating, tearing holes through many Pokemon. As of now I'm considering banishing Manaphy to Uber altogether, but who knows; things change, right?
That's it for now. Please refrain from flaming me as these are only my opinions, haha.