Regigigas (Gen 4, revamp Staller)

[Scoopapa]

Status: Complete

Ok, so I've named this wrong according to the new nomenclature and can't seem to change it (or delete the post fully so I can repost properly). Help me out here if you know what I can do.

This is meant to replace the Staller set, which relies too heavily on parafusion and in my experience is too easy to cripple with status or hit hard before it gets going (Edit: I've added Confuse Ray as a slash, at Fuzznip's request). I slashed confuse ray with substitute, as I have had a lot of success with the T-wave/Substitute combo. Also, I'm changing the set comments, which where geared towards OU rather than UU or NU.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/regigigas

[SET]
name: Staller
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Substitute / Confuse Ray
move 3: Return
move 4: Earthquake / Confuse Ray
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This set is Regigigas' best chance to stall out Slow Start and do some sweeping. Using the set is pretty simple in theory, but requires good timing. Once your opponent's bulky Ground is out of the way, send Regigigas in on a weak attack or recovery move. You can then use Thunder Wave and Substitute to stall for turns. You're very likely to get at least one turn of full paralysis before you run out of Substitutes, allowing you to "get your act together" with a decent amount of health left. Once you stall out Slow Start, you will have 460 Attack, 237 Speed, and if you pulled it off well, lots of health or a Substitute. Regigigas can 2HKO most frail sweepers before stalling out Slow Start, so you may find Regigigas getting KOs without even setting up. Also, many Fighting-types use STAB attacks that lower Defense, so keep in mind that after one Defense drop you have a 58% chance to OHKO Hitmonlee using Return with Stealth Rock up and a 100% chance to OHKO Blaziken using Earthquake.</p>

<p>The key to using this set is knowing when to switch in and set up. Regigigias actually outspeeds base 40 Speed Pokemon despite Slow Start, meaning that Bastiodon, Camerupt, Gastrodon, Probopass, Quagsire, Rhyperior, Slowbro, Spiritomb, Steelix, Sudowoodo, and many others in NU are outsped. Regigigas has no business setting up on Rhyperior or Steelix, due to attack power and Roar, respectively. However, all of these, bar Rhyperior and Camerupt, will fail to break Regigigas' Substitutes if they lack EVs in Attack or Special Attack. Slowbro has a 20% chance to break the Substitute with Surf, and Sudowoodo a 72% chance with Stone Edge. Supporters that don't often carry status moves make good setup fodder as well, including Claydol and Umbreon. Regigigas can easily stall Slow Start against Registeel as well, although it is likely to get paralyzed in the process.</p>

<p>Confuse Ray can work on the set instead of Substitute or Earthquake, in order to get the parafusion combo. An opponent who is paralyzed and confused will only attack 37.5% of the time, which helps you to stall out Slow Start. Your chance of remaining unscathed after four turns of this is a measly 15%, so it's not recommended that you try to stay in on Fighting-types or Will-o-Wisp users who can ruin you in one turn. However, most pokemon need a boost to even 2HKO Regigigas, so if you only get hit once or twice you'll probably still have a nice amount of health by the time you stall out Slow Start. You can also opt to run Confuse Ray over Earthquake, as you are likely to get a lot of free Substitutes in when your enemy is both paralyzed and confused. In this case, Confuse Ray helps make up for lost coverage by giving you free turns, while Substitute makes sure that if you don't get lucky it doesn't cost you your sweep. In exchange, you lose the ability to hit Spiritomb, and will have trouble getting past many Rock- or Steel-types; especially those with obscene Defense or a 4x resist (you are still likely to beat Registeel, though). Parafusion also goes some way towards easing one of Regigigas' biggest problems: Curse users. A stalling Regigigas is setup fodder for Curse users, so parafusion will make it safer for your team to deal with the Curser after Regigigas switches out. </p>

<p>Surprisingly, Regigigas can make itself useful against a variety of opponents. Against heavy offense, Regigigas can take a lot hits and provide useful paralysis support, helping you regain momentum. Against balanced teams, Regigigas has a good chance of forcing a switch, spreading some paralysis, and firing off some 460 Attack STAB Returns. Against stall, Regigigas can be a great late game sweeper, but only once you have removed any phazers from the enemy's team. If nothing else, Regigigas' great bulk and Thunder Wave will often be your "get out of jail free card" when your opponent manages to set up a sweeper. </p>

<p>The best way of supporting Regigigas is with a dual screener. Regigigas makes a very worthy dual screen receiver due to the fact that its Substitutes can survive almost any unboosted attack with the right screen in place. Regigigas' bulk makes the use of Memento unnecessary, making a Regigigas sweep less risky than, say, a Belly Drum Linoone sweep. A Memento-using dual screener could even set up for Regigigas first, and then use Memento for a more all-or-nothing sweeper later. Regigigas also greatly appreciates paralysis support from its teammates. Slowbro is a great choice to spread around paralysis and can take Fighting attacks aimed at Regigigas all day. Rotom is immune to Fighting and can provide more offensive paralysis support with Discharge. Will-o-Wisp and Toxic can support Regigigas too, with the former turning physical Pokemon into setup fodder and the latter forcing switches along with Substitute. Supporting Regigigas also involves having answers to some of his counters. At the very least, you need something on your team that is capable of dealing with Fighting-type sweepers. Slowbro, Spiritomb, and Weezing come to mind. Sturdy Ground-type phazers like Donphan and Steelix can't be touched by Regigigas, so a pokemon that can lure them in and damage or KO them is very helpful. Many physical sweepers can perform this function. Donphan can also be lured by Pokemon that lay entry hazards. Speaking of entry hazards, Toxic Spikes will render Regigigas unable to set up, period. Cloyster can do double duty here by using Rapid Spin and luring in Donphan with Spikes. If Rapid Spin isn't for you, any Poison-type that is not immune to Ground can absorb the Toxic Spikes. Finally, Mismagius and Drifblim are immune to Regigigas' moves and often carry Substitute or Taunt to thwart Thunder Wave. Drapion, Registeel, and Clefable can counter both of these pokemon, as can a specially defensive phazer, such as Venasaur. </p>

 

[ungulateman]

Ok, so I've named this wrong according to the new nomenclature and can't seem to change it (or delete the post fully so I can repost properly). Help me out here if you know what I can do.

This is meant to replace the Staller set, which relies too heavily on parafusion and in my experience is too easy to cripple with status or hit hard before it gets going. I replaced confuse ray with substitute, as I have had a lot of success with the T-wave/Substitute combo. Also, I'm changing the set comments, which where geared towards OU rather than UU or NU.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/regigigas

[SET]
name: Staller
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Return
move 4: Earthquake
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
EVs 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This set is Regigigas' best chance to stall out Slow Start and do some sweeping. Using the set is pretty simple in theory, but requires good timing. Once your opponent's bulky ground is out of the way, send (It sounds better, and makes more sense) Regigigas in on a weak attack or recovery move. You can then use Thunder Wave and Substitute to stall for turns. You're very likely to get at least one turn of full paralysis before you run out of subs, allowing you to "get your act together" with a decent amount of health left. Once you stall out Slow Start, you will have 460 Attack, 237 Speed, and if you pulled it off well, lots of health or a substitute. Regigigas can 2HKO most frail sweepers before stalling out Slow Start, so you may find Regigigas getting KO's without even setting up. Also, many fighting types use STAB attacks that lower Defence, so keep in mind that after one drop you have a 58% chance to OHKO Hitmonlee using Return with Stealth Rocks up, and a 100% chance to OHKO Blaziken with Earthquake after Superpower (?).

<p>The key to using this set is knowing when to switch in and set up. Regigigias actually outspeeds base 40 speed pokemon despite Slow Start, meaning that Bastiodon, Camerupt, Gastrodon, Probopass, Quagsire, Rhyperior, Slowbro, Spiritomb, Steelix, Sudowoodo, and many others in NU are outsped. Regigigas has no business setting up on Rhyperior or Steelix, due to attack power and Roar, respectively. However, all of these bar Rhyperior and Camerupt will fail to break Regigigas' subs if they lack EVs (removed apostrophe) in Attack or Special Attack. Slowbro has an 20% chance to break the subs with Surf, and Sudowoodo a 72% chance with Stone Edge. Supporters that don't often carry status moves make good setup fodder as well, including Claydol and Umbreon. Regigigas can easily stall Slow Start against Registeel as well, although he is likely to get paralyzed in the process.

<p>Surprisingly, Regigigas can make itself useful against a variety of opponents. Against heavy offense, Regigigas can take a lot hits and provide useful paralysis support, helping you regain momentum. Against balanced teams, Regigigas has a good chance of forcing a switch, spreading some paralysis, and firing off some 460 Attack STAB Returns. Against stall, Regigigas can be a great late game sweeper, but only once you have removed any pHazers from the enemy's team. Regigigas' great bulk and Thunder Wave will often be your "get out of jail free" card when your opponent manages to set up a sweeper.

<p>The best way of supporting Regigigas is with a dual screener. Regigigas makes a very worthy dual screen receiver due to the fact that its subs can survive almost any unboosted attack with the right screen in place. Regigigas' bulk makes the use of Memento unnecessary, making a Regigigas sweep less risky than say, a Belly Drum Linoone sweep. A Memento-using dual screener could even set up for Regigigas first, and then use Memento for a more all-or-nothing sweeper later. Regigigas also greatly appreciates paralysis support from its team mates. Slowbro is a great choice to spread around paralysis and can take fighting moves aimed at Regigigas all day. Rotom is immune to fighting and can provide more offensive paralysis support with Discharge. Will-o-wisp and Toxic can support Regigigas too, with the former turning physical Pokemon into setup fodder and the latter forcing switches along with Substitute. Supporting Regigigas also involves having answers to some of his counters. At the very least, you need something on your team that is capable of dealing with Fighting-type sweepers. Slowbro, Spiritomb, and Weezing come to mind. Sturdy Ground-type phazers like Donphan and Steelix can't be touched by Regigigas, so a pokemon that can lure them in and damage or KO them is very helpful. Many physical sweepers can perform this function. Donphan can also be lured by Pokemon that lay entry hazards. Finally, Mismagius and Drifblim are immune to Regigigas' moves and often carry Substitute or Taunt to thwart Thunder Wave. Drapion, Registeel, and Clefable can counter both of these pokemon, as can a specially defensive pHazer, such as Venasaur.

Looks good. The grammar on the calculations in the first paragraph is arguable, but that's how I would write it. Remember to not put apostrophes out of context. And, capitals. Attacks, stats (like Special Attack or Speed) and abilities (like Slow Start) need to be capitalised in almost every situation.

 

[Fuzznip]

To be honest, I really liked the Staller set how it was before. Confuse Ray and Thunder Wave is an excellent combination to use. It's very hard for the opponent to actually hit Regigigas, which means it's much easier for it to regain its Attack and Speed that it's lost by Slow Start. As far as I know, the Staller set is supposed to rely on those two moves, because it's Regigigas' best way to get its stats back up with taking little damage in the process. On the note of being vulnerable to status, that can be solved easily by inputting Substitute somewhere in that set to, which makes Regigigas even more threatening. Even if it will only have Return as its final move, the Pokemon that are resistant or immune to it will still have a hard time getting past confusion and paralysis. This just gives you a good opportunity to switch in a Pokemon that can threaten the resistant/immune Pokemon.

Thunder Wave + Confuse Ray is one of Regigigas' best combos, and it should abuse it to the fullest potential, as it helps it regain its stats that Slow Start has crippled.

 

[Scoopapa]

To be honest, I really liked the Staller set how it was before. Confuse Ray and Thunder Wave is an excellent combination to use. It's very hard for the opponent to actually hit Regigigas, which means it's much easier for it to regain its Attack and Speed that it's lost by Slow Start. As far as I know, the Staller set is supposed to rely on those two moves, because it's Regigigas' best way to get its stats back up with taking little damage in the process. On the note of being vulnerable to status, that can be solved easily by inputting Substitute somewhere in that set to, which makes Regigigas even more threatening. Even if it will only have Return as its final move, the Pokemon that are resistant or immune to it will still have a hard time getting past confusion and paralysis. This just gives you a good opportunity to switch in a Pokemon that can threaten the resistant/immune Pokemon.

Thunder Wave + Confuse Ray is one of Regigigas' best combos, and it should abuse it to the fullest potential, as it helps it regain its stats that Slow Start has crippled.

Substitute is just far more reliable. Paralysis + Confusion still gives the opponent a 37.5% chance to move, and they can just switch something threatening into a weak return after you've already parafused something. With substitute there is a 25% chance of a free turn but a 0% chance of being crippled. Even if the set gets no hax, it can stall out Slow Start.

Consider a situation in which Blaziken switches in on Regigigas, only to be met with a Thunder Wave. The Substitute set will use Substitute, most likely taking a Superpower. The next turn, Blaziken can be KO'ed with Earthquake. The Confuse Ray set will use Confuse Ray, having a 37.5% chance of dying horribly. If we are at the third turn, it means Blaziken hasn't attacked yet, so Earthquake is still a 2HKO. Here's another 37.5% chance of dying. you have a compounded 39.1% chance of surviving this encounter. Hitmonlee can't be paralyzed but can be Substituted against, for a OHKO back if they use Close Combat to break your sub. Azumarill can knock you around with Superpower and avoids being 2HKO'ed. With sub, you can at least get one turn of full power, no matter what. There is a 31% chance of you not getting a free turn from full paralysis (and there's the chance that they switch), so more than likely you'll have extra leftovers recovery and a free hit to go with it.

If the opponent switches in on Thunder Wave, you are 30% more likely to get an extra turn with substitute than you are to survive two turns against an enemy who can OHKO you. If any enemy has Will-o-Wisp, it has a good chance of burning you before you stall out Slow Start, but may not be strong enough (Spiritomb comes to mind) to break your subs. The Substitute set reliably sets up in this situation, while the Confuse Ray set has a good chance of getting burned. I think the Substitute set is a lot more reliable.

 

[Fuzznip]

I understand that Substitute can be very beneficial, but I still don't see why Confuse Ray should be left out. Everyone knows how deadly parafusion is, and Regigigas is very bulky and has great Attack and Speed, only it is crippled by its ability. So, imagine how difficult it is to take down Regigigas when you only have a 37.5% chance of attacking it, and it has great overall bulk?

I'm not saying that Substitute is not a worthy option, I'm saying that Confuse Ray should not be left out on this set. The set's name is called "Staller", and parafusion is a perfect combination to do so.

If Confuse Ray is left out, then like you said, your opponent has a 75% chance to attack you. This set isn't using any form of recovery, and Substitute will just keep knocking off 25% of Regi's health. You're not guaranteed to set up more than one Substitute for free, which means that Regigigas will be chipping a lot of its health to set one up for free. Even if you set up one for free and end up killing the Pokemon, you are unlikely to do the exact same with the next switch-in.

However, who said you can't incorporate Substitute in the previous set? It's not a bad idea to have a set with Thunder Wave/Confuse Ray/Substitute/Return, I've actually used this set to great success. It's so incredibly difficult to take down Regigigas, that I end up taking down Pokemon resistant to Return. As for Ghost-types immune to Return, you can always mention carrying a Pursuiter on your team, not to mention that these Ghost-types can be crippled by the parafusion combo. Continuing on from the paragraph above this one, Confuse Ray added to the set will make Regigigas very hard to hit, which gives you a much greater chance at setting up Substitute. Also, it will be healing its HP by 6% each turn, and with your opponent only having a 37.5% chance to move, it's likely that Regigigas will be regaining a good amount of its HP, allowing it to set up more Substitutes than usual.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

I'm supporting Fuzznip's claim to put Confuse Ray. Even as a first option. The usefullness of parafusion is incredible, and is much more worthwhile than Substitute. Fuzznip has most of the reasons said though, but seriously - it's much more worthwhile that Subbing away.

 

[User 12783]

I understand that Substitute can be very beneficial, but I still don't see why Confuse Ray should be left out. Everyone knows how deadly parafusion is, and Regigigas is very bulky and has great Attack and Speed, only it is crippled by its ability. So, imagine how difficult it is to take down Regigigas when you only have a 37.5% chance of attacking it, and it has great overall bulk?

I'm not saying that Substitute is not a worthy option, I'm saying that Confuse Ray should not be left out on this set. The set's name is called "Staller", and parafusion is a perfect combination to do so.

If Confuse Ray is left out, then like you said, your opponent has a 75% chance to attack you. This set isn't using any form of recovery, and Substitute will just keep knocking off 25% of Regi's health. You're not guaranteed to set up more than one Substitute for free, which means that Regigigas will be chipping a lot of its health to set one up for free. Even if you set up one for free and end up killing the Pokemon, you are unlikely to do the exact same with the next switch-in.

However, who said you can't incorporate Substitute in the previous set? It's not a bad idea to have a set with Thunder Wave/Confuse Ray/Substitute/Return, I've actually used this set to great success. It's so incredibly difficult to take down Regigigas, that I end up taking down Pokemon resistant to Return. As for Ghost-types immune to Return, you can always mention carrying a Pursuiter on your team, not to mention that these Ghost-types can be crippled by the parafusion combo. Continuing on from the paragraph above this one, Confuse Ray added to the set will make Regigigas very hard to hit, which gives you a much greater chance at setting up Substitute. Also, it will be healing its HP by 6% each turn, and with your opponent only having a 37.5% chance to move, it's likely that Regigigas will be regaining a good amount of its HP, allowing it to set up more Substitutes than usual.

Then it does not really matter if it gets out of Slow Start, you can't do anything, and Ghost-types wall you. There is no reason to get out of Slow Start so it is an invalid point in general.

 

[Fuzznip]

Then it does not really matter if it gets out of Slow Start, you can't do anything, and Ghost-types wall you. There is no reason to get out of Slow Start so it is an invalid point in general.

How can it not do anything if it gets out of Slow Start?

Return's power will be even greater, dealing massive damage to frailer Pokemon. Also, may be fast enough to use Substitute before the opponent attempts to status it, can use Thunder Wave before the opponent tries to use Substitute, etc.

I don't see how it "can't do anything". Even if it's walled by Ghost-types, it can use Thunder Wave/Confuse Ray or switch out. If it switches out, it can just start getting its stats back by doing the parafusion/Substitute procedure all over again once it switches back in.

 

[ryubahamut]

some HTML and SCMS related issues.

1. EVs 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Spe
change to EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Spe. the colon is absolutely needed whenever you're putting a line in the [SET] section

2. close all paragraphs with a </p>

 

[Scoopapa]

If Confuse Ray is left out, then like you said, your opponent has a 75% chance to attack you.

Yes, but when they do, you only lose 19% of your health. The chance of a free turn over the course of four Subs is higher than the chance of not getting hit in one turn of parafusion. And when you do get hit, it could well be a Superpower from Blaziken or Azumarill, a Close Combat from Hitmonlee or Primape, a Life Orb Fire Blast from Moltres, a Facade from Swellow, a Will-o-Wisp from Spiritomb... the payoff is better in a best case scenario but that scenario is not going to happen very often.

Substitute is absolutely necessary. Imagine Spiritomb switches in on you. You can't beat it before Slow Start ends, so it has four chances to burn you before that happens... he has a roughly 85% chance of burning you before you get going (and if you don't run Earthquake you obviously lose). The same could be said for any opponent that Regigigas cannot KO quickly whether they are trying to paralyze, poison, or more likely (and worse), hit him with a strong fighting attack. It's simply too high a chance of failure. Confuse Ray + Thunder Wave is only going to work reliably if your opponent doesn't have anything that can hurt Regigigas in one turn. The Substitute set will work just as well in that situation, but it will also work in the situations (I pointed out a few in this and my previous post) where they do have a move capable of hurting you. The Confuse Ray + Thunder Wave set also relies on you always hitting a switch-in with Thunder Wave or Confuse Ray, while the Substitute set simply gains a free sub when your opponent switches. Then there's the problem with Slowbro in particular being immune to confusion. He can paralyze you without Substitute, and then switch something else into a weak Return. Now you're paralyzed and forced to switch out or die. If you have Substitute not only do you get a free turn on the Thunder Wave, but you keep a sub up, so you can paralyze the switch-in or get a weak hit. At this point, you're pretty close to stalling Slow Start and can sub a couple times to get ready. Remember that without Sub, even if you paralyze a fighting switch-in two turns before Slow Start is over, he is still more likely than not to hit you with an attack.

If anything, Confuse Ray warrants a slash with Earthquake, although you'll probably lose against Regirock and Steelix even with the hax, and the Rock/Steels (especially the new and improved Aggron) will wall you all day. And Spiritomb, reliable set up fodder if you have Substitute and Earthquake, now walls you completely... but maybe the extra hax could make up for that depending on the team. I prefer reliability when making a set, so to me a 37.5% chance of taking a hit (each of five turns) is about as bad as relying on Thunder, Blizzard, or Focus Blast for a late-game sweeper (the chance of them breaking through is higher than of any of these moves hitting 5 times in a row). I just don't think parafusion meets Smogon's competitive standards. Confuse Ray will be fun when you get the hax, but it will make Regigigas a big waste of a team slot when he gets crippled. Sub Regigigas excels in many specific situations I have pointed out, and is consistent even in worst case scenarios - this makes him a much better choice than Confuse Ray. I think Confuse Ray is OO personally... if someone can show how Confuse Ray is more reliable than Sub in important situations, I'll reconsider.

 

[Fuzznip]

Warning, long post, but had to do it.

Yes, but when they do, you only lose 19% of your health.

You only lose 19% of your health when they attack you? How do you know that? What if you were never behind a Substitute? And even if you were, they would just attack you next turn when they are paralyzed once you use Thunder Wave. After that, you have to hope they get paralyzed so you can set up another Substitute for free and try to finish them off.

The chance of a free turn over the course of four Subs is higher than the chance of not getting hit in one turn of parafusion.

What's so bad about this? In the course of FOUR turns, you have a higher chance of NOT getting hit in ONE turn of parafusion. So, if you had four turns of parafusion, you have a much, much bigger chance of not getting hit.

And when you do get hit, it could well be a Superpower from Blaziken or Azumarill, a Close Combat from Hitmonlee or Primape, a Life Orb Fire Blast from Moltres, a Facade from Swellow, a Will-o-Wisp from Spiritomb... the payoff is better in a best case scenario but that scenario is not going to happen very often.

I don't think this is a fair point. You can just as easily be up against one of these threats with your set and still be hit by those things. You can't just say "I'll be behind a Substitute", because you won't always be behind one. Also, parafusion will give you a greater chance at coming on top of the threats you've mentioned, not to mention that a lot of them will take a lot of confusion damage. I'm not saying that parafusion will always make you win against them, because that's a dumb point to make. I also don't think you can come on top of these threats either at all times, you need to get lucky they paralyze themselves.

Substitute is absolutely necessary. Imagine Spiritomb switches in on you. You can't beat it before Slow Start ends, so it has four chances to burn you before that happens... he has a roughly 85% chance of burning you before you get going (and if you don't run Earthquake you obviously lose).

It's not absolutely necessary. It's not like you will keep Regigigas in against a status inflicter anyway, because chances are, you'll get statused. With or without Earthquake, defensive (max/max) Spiritomb will almost always beat Regigigas.

230 Atk vs 346 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 48 - 57 (15.79% - 18.75%)
That's with Slow Start in play.

460 Atk vs 346 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 96 - 113 (31.58% - 37.17%
That's with Slow Start out.

This means that Spiritomb has a good chance at PP stalling Earthquake and Regigigas will be left useless as well. Or, you are forced to use other moves like Thunder Wave or Substitute if you don't want to waste your Return PP. But this just gives Spiritomb the perfect opportunity to boost up.

The same could be said for any opponent that Regigigas cannot KO quickly whether they are trying to paralyze, poison, or more likely (and worse), hit him with a strong fighting attack. It's simply too high a chance of failure. Confuse Ray + Thunder Wave is only going to work reliably if your opponent doesn't have anything that can hurt Regigigas in one turn. The Substitute set will work just as well in that situation, but it will also work in the situations (I pointed out a few in this and my previous post) where they do have a move capable of hurting you. The Confuse Ray + Thunder Wave set also relies on you always hitting a switch-in with Thunder Wave or Confuse Ray, while the Substitute set simply gains a free sub when your opponent switches.

Now you're simply implying that Regigigas must set up a Substitute at all times, and by what you are saying, Regigigas will always be forcing the opponent out to give it a free Substitute. This is not even true. Your opponent can just as easily attack you rather than switching out, and you aren't going to always be in perfect HP range to set one up.

How does Substitute work well in situations when your opponent has a move capable of hurting you? You can't just keep spamming Substitute and hope for Thunder Wave to make them fully paralysis (which may not even happen anyway), you only have 5 chances to hope for your opponent to be paralyzed to give you a free Sub. It's likely that when that process is done, Regigigas will be below or at 50% health.

Then there's the problem with Slowbro in particular being immune to confusion. He can paralyze you without Substitute, and then switch something else into a weak Return. Now you're paralyzed and forced to switch out or die. If you have Substitute not only do you get a free turn on the Thunder Wave, but you keep a sub up, so you can paralyze the switch-in or get a weak hit. At this point, you're pretty close to stalling Slow Start and can sub a couple times to get ready.

Ok, sure Slowbro is immune to confusion, but he can still be paralyzed. How is Substitute going to help with Slowbro exactly? Slowbro can just keep using Surf to bring down Regigigas due to it having no reliable recovery, and Slowbro's high Defense won't make it afraid of Return. Also, Slowbro has Slack Off, so Regigigas doesn't have a high chance at beating Slowbro unless you get extremely lucky with paralysis hax. Confuse Ray + Thunder Wave is much more effective at removing Slow Start's crippling ability, rather than continuously using Substitute in order to do so.

Remember that without Sub, even if you paralyze a fighting switch-in two turns before Slow Start is over, he is still more likely than not to hit you with an attack.

Once again, this is the same with or without Substitute. The Fighting-type switch-in can still hit right through Substitute, meaning Regigigas has to once again rely on that paralysis chance to kick in so it can set up a Substitute for free and use Return, or wait for Slow Start to be over to use Return.

If anything, Confuse Ray warrants a slash with Earthquake, although you'll probably lose against Regirock and Steelix even with the hax, and the Rock/Steels (especially the new and improved Aggron) will wall you all day.

Sure, they can wall you. But you do know you have 5 other Pokemon on a team (hence the team options).

And Spiritomb, reliable set up fodder if you have Substitute and Earthquake, now walls you completely... but maybe the extra hax could make up for that depending on the team.

Already went through this, Spiritomb will in most cases beat SubGas to.

I prefer reliability when making a set, so to me a 37.5% chance of taking a hit (each of five turns) is about as bad as relying on Thunder, Blizzard, or Focus Blast for a late-game sweeper (the chance of them breaking through is higher than of any of these moves hitting 5 times in a row).

I don't get what you mean by this, they have no comparison.

I just don't think parafusion meets Smogon's competitive standards. Confuse Ray will be fun when you get the hax, but it will make Regigigas a big waste of a team slot when he gets crippled.

Parafusion can meet Smogon's competitive standards. It's one of the deadliest combinations in the game. With Regigigas having such a horrible ability, it needs 5 turns to become threatening, and parafusion can help it get those 5 turns very reliably. I don't see the reason to remove one of Regigigas' best used combinations.

Sub Regigigas excels in many specific situations I have pointed out, and is consistent even in worst case scenarios - this makes him a much better choice than Confuse Ray. I think Confuse Ray is OO personally... if someone can show how Confuse Ray is more reliable than Sub in important situations, I'll reconsider.

I know that SubGas can be great, I never said it should be removed, but Confuse Ray should not leave this set. If you were to mention this in the set, the moveset should look like this: Return/Thunder Wave/Confuse Ray/Substitute or Earthquake.

You do realize we are arguing over Confuse Ray. Just mention it, it's very important. If you really want logs, I will provide you with some. Once again, sorry for the insanely long post.

 

[Scoopapa]

I can mention Confuse Ray as a slash for Earthquake. I'm putting it after, though. I hope you don't mind if I respond to some of your points anyway, though, as I feel as though I've been misinterpreted a little.

You only lose 19% of your health when they attack you? How do you know that? What if you were never behind a Substitute? And even if you were, they would just attack you next turn when they are paralyzed once you use Thunder Wave. After that, you have to hope they get paralyzed so you can set up another Substitute for free and try to finish them off.

Scenario we've been discussing in every case is that the pokemon you are up against has switched into Thunder Wave, so I know you can have a sub up if you want one because your opponent is paralyzed so Gigas goes first. If the opponent isn't paralyzed all bets are off obviously.

What's so bad about this? In the course of FOUR turns, you have a higher chance of NOT getting hit in ONE turn of parafusion. So, if you had four turns of parafusion, you have a much, much bigger chance of not getting hit.

I know I worded the math a little funny so let me clarify... there is a 31% chance that your opponent will last four turns without being fully paralyzed... and because we're talking about an enemy who switched in to Thunder Wave, basically that means there's a 31% chance that you only have about a quarter of your health when Slow Start ends. Every turn of parafusion, there is a 37.5% chance that you get hit, and unless you have already killed their counter, it's likely to hurt. I was assuming Confuse Ray over Substitute when pointing that out, so I suppose if you had both you'd only need to risk one turn on Confuse Ray and then start subbing - again I think the slash with Earthquake is a decent idea. Without Sub you are extremely likely to get hurt, though. Given this scenario (opponent switches and is paralyzed) you will always get at least one boosted Return.

Ok, sure Slowbro is immune to confusion, but he can still be paralyzed. How is Substitute going to help with Slowbro exactly? Slowbro can just keep using Surf to bring down Regigigas due to it having no reliable recovery, and Slowbro's high Defense won't make it afraid of Return.

Because the standard Slowbro with no Sp. Atk EVs can't break your sub 80% of the time. You actually outspeed Slowbro, so you can come in after a kill or on a Slack Off, Sub against the likely Thunder Wave, Paralyze back as he fails to break your Sub, and then alternate Return and Sub from there. I have set up on Slowbro numerous times, as after setup Return is a 3HKO and has more PP than Slack Off. Slowbro is one of the main things Regigigas has going for it.

Once again, this is the same with or without Substitute. The Fighting-type switch-in can still hit right through Substitute, meaning Regigigas has to once again rely on that paralysis chance to kick in so it can set up a Substitute for free and use Return, or wait for Slow Start to be over to use Return.

It's not the same at all. With only Confuse Ray you have a 61% (roughly) chance to eat a fighting move. With sub, you are likely to lose 40% of your health due to subbing twice (in this scenario), and then you'll OHKO back. Or if it's Blaziken, you can OHKO back after he uses Superpower on your sub.

This means that Spiritomb has a good chance at PP stalling Earthquake and Regigigas will be left useless as well. Or, you are forced to use other moves like Thunder Wave or Substitute if you don't want to waste your Return PP. But this just gives Spiritomb the perfect opportunity to boost up.

CroTomb is the only set that runs that much Def on Smogon. Some people may do it anyway on their own sets, although I think a lot of CroTombs run Special Attack too. I don't think either set can stop boosting Spiritomb without Light Screen in place, although you still need sub to take on support versions, and you obviously need EQ too.

At any rate, I'll add in slashes for Confuse Ray, I'm just not putting it first because I think (and have shown numerically) that it is very risky.

Update: I've added slashes and a paragraph for Confuse Ray, let me know if you think more needs to be said.

 

[Fuzznip]

Ok, glad you put in Confuse Ray. :D

Just a tiny problem:

[SET]
name: Staller
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Substitute(_)/(_)Confuse Ray
move 3: Return
move 4: Earthquake(_)/(_)Confuse Ray
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Spe

You need some spaces there.

Also, I think you should mention how Toxic Spikes will shut down this set immediately. Regigigas will no longer be able to safely use Substitute, and the poison damage that keeps adding up will force it to switch out, making its Slow Start basically impossible to pull off successfully. So, I think it's a good idea to mention that, along with possible partners to dispose of them (Rapid Spinners, Poison-types).

 

[Havak]

I'd still suggest mentioning Drain Punch somewhere in the analysis, as it's basically Regigigas' only way of healing.

 

[Xia]

Went ahead and proofread this since it looks closer to being complete.

Blue indicates spelling / grammar mistakes;
Red indicates removed material;
(Green indicates comments)

Staller

<p>This set is Regigigas' best chance to stall out Slow Start and do some sweeping. Using the set is pretty simple in theory, but requires good timing. Once your opponent's bulky Ground is out of the way, send Regigigas in on a weak attack or recovery move. You can then use Thunder Wave and Substitute to stall for turns. You're very likely to get at least one turn of full paralysis before you run out of Substitutes, allowing you to "get your act together" with a decent amount of health left. Once you stall out Slow Start, you will have 460 Attack, 237 Speed, and if you pulled it off well, lots of health or a Substitute. Regigigas can 2HKO most frail sweepers before stalling out Slow Start, so you may find Regigigas getting KOs without even setting up. Also, many Fighting-types use STAB attacks that lower Defense, so keep in mind that after one Defense drop you have a 58% chance to OHKO Hitmonlee using Return with Stealth Rock up and a 100% chance to OHKO Blaziken using Earthquake.</p>

<p>The key to using this set is knowing when to switch in and set up. Regigigias actually outspeeds base 40 Speed Pokemon despite Slow Start, meaning that Bastiodon, Camerupt, Gastrodon, Probopass, Quagsire, Rhyperior, Slowbro, Spiritomb, Steelix, Sudowoodo, and many others in NU are outsped. Regigigas has no business setting up on Rhyperior or Steelix, due to attack power and Roar, respectively. However, all of these(,) bar Rhyperior and Camerupt(,) will fail to break Regigigas' Substitutes if they lack EVs in Attack or Special Attack. Slowbro has a 20% chance to break the Substitute with Surf, and Sudowoodo a 72% chance with Stone Edge. Supporters that don't often carry status moves make good setup fodder as well, including Claydol and Umbreon. Regigigas can easily stall Slow Start against Registeel as well, although he it (pronoun agreement; no gender) is likely to get paralyzed in the process.</p>

<p>Confuse Ray can work on the set instead of Substitute or Earthquake, in order to get the (")parafusion(") (site-created terms are not capitalized) combo. An opponent who is paralyzed and confused will only attack 37.5% of the time, which helps you to stall out Slow Start. Your chance of remaining unscathed after four turns of this is a measly 15%, so it's not recommended that you try to stay in on Fighting-types or Will-o-Wisp users who can ruin you in one turn. However, most pokemon need a boost to even 2HKO Regigigas, so if you only get hit once or twice you'll probably still have a nice amount of health by the time you stall out Slow Start. You can also opt to run Confuse Ray over Earthquake, as you are likely to get a lot of free Substitutes in when your enemy is both paralyzed and confused. In this case, Confuse Ray helps make up for lost coverage by giving you free turns, while Substitute makes sure that if you don't get lucky it doesn't cost you your sweep. In exchange, you lose the ability to hit Spiritomb, and will have trouble getting past many Rock- or Steel-types; especially those with obscene Defense or a 4x resistance (you are still likely to beat Registeel, though). Parafusion also goes some way towards easing one of Regigigas' biggest problems: Curse users. A stalling Regigigas is setup fodder for Curse users, so parafusion will make it safer for your team to deal with the Curser after Regigigas switches out. </p>

<p>Surprisingly, Regigigas can make itself useful against a variety of opponents. Against heavy offense, Regigigas can take a lot hits and provide useful paralysis support, helping you regain momentum. Against balanced teams, Regigigas has a good chance of forcing a switch, spreading some paralysis, and firing off some 460 Attack STAB Returns. Against stall, Regigigas can be a great late game sweeper, but only once you have removed any phazers (site-created tems are not capitalized) from the enemy's team. If nothing else, Regigigas' great bulk and Thunder Wave will often be your "get out of jail free(") card(") when your opponent manages to set up a sweeper. </p>

<p>The best way of supporting Regigigas is with a dual screener. Regigigas makes a very worthy dual screen receiver due to the fact that its Substitutes can survive almost any unboosted attack with the right screen in place. Regigigas' bulk makes the use of Memento unnecessary, making a Regigigas sweep less risky than(,) say, a Belly Drum Linoone sweep. A Memento-using dual screener could even set up for Regigigas first, and then use Memento for a more all-or-nothing sweeper later. Regigigas also greatly appreciates paralysis support from its teammates. Slowbro is a great choice to spread around paralysis and can take Fighting moves attacks (attacks do damage) aimed at Regigigas all day. Rotom is immune to Fighting and can provide more offensive paralysis support with Discharge. Will-O-Wisp and Toxic can support Regigigas too, with the former turning physical Pokemon into setup fodder and the latter forcing switches along with Substitute. Supporting Regigigas also involves having answers to some of his counters. At the very least, you need something on your team that is capable of dealing with Fighting-type sweepers. Slowbro, Spiritomb, and Weezing come to mind. Sturdy Ground-type phazers like Donphan and Steelix can't be touched by Regigigas, so a pokemon that can lure them in and damage or KO them is very helpful. Many physical sweepers can perform this function. Donphan can also be lured by Pokemon that lay entry hazards. Finally, Mismagius and Drifblim are immune to Regigigas' moves and often carry Substitute or Taunt to thwart Thunder Wave. Drapion, Registeel, and Clefable can counter both of these pokemon, as can a specially defensive phazer, such as Venasaur.</p>

 

[Scoopapa]

I'd still suggest mentioning Drain Punch somewhere in the analysis, as it's basically Regigigas' only way of healing.

It's already in the Other Options, although it's mentioned as a way to hit Tyranitar.

 

[Scoopapa]

<doublepost>Thanks everyone for the help so far!</doublepost>