Revisions - Syclant discussion

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This thread is here for the purpose of revising Syclant, Smogon's first CAP Pokemon. Syclant is widely considered to be among the very weakest of CAP Pokemon, so we're going to beef it up a bit.

All users should feel free to suggest any revisions which you believe will improve Syclant's usefulness. The elements we are looking at here are ability, movepool, and stat spread.

Rules:

  • All posts should demonstrate a good working knowledge of the CAP project and the competitive CAP Pokemon metagame. Posts that demonstrate a lack of knowledge and/or familiarity with CAP project rules and operating procedures will be moderated. Ignorance is not an excuse here.
  • Do not discuss any Pokemon other than Syclant.
  • This is a competitive adjustment only. Do not suggest changes regarding flavor.
  • Stay on topic, be nice, etc.
 
If I am incorrect, Scylant used to have access to Superpower, before it was first nerfed, along with a couple of it's stats.

The thing that comes to mind is giving Scylant Superpower again, but not increaseing it's stats back to where they were. This should place it somewhere between the broken height it had before Platinum, and the low it has now. It also gives Scylant something to use against the other CAPs, whom very few of it actually matches up favorably to. Superpower can deal with Kit, Stratagem (On the switch in, or with a Scarfant), and Collosoil (Although Ice Beam can handle the latter)

Although, the only real way that Scylant is going to be used significantly more is if we nerf Scizor, or give Scylant enough defence to make it able to take CB Scizor's Technician Bullet Punch... with Super Effective damage. However, that would make it a tank, which was not the origional concept. As long as Scizor runs around freely, Scylant will never be able to sweep. Switching out isn't safe, because Persuit deals massive damage as well. It's like Ho-Oh, it's useful, yes, but the conditions are usually unfavorable, in Scylant's case, instant death by Scizor, and in Ho-Oh's case, Stealth Rocks. That's how crippling the Scizor weakness is.

To sum up that paragraph:
The Scizor weakness to Scylant is like Stealth Rock is to Ho-Oh. Nothing can really be changed on the pokemon to make up for this drawback, which prevents their use.

However, this dosen't stop Scylant from getting Superpower, so it can punish more things, either when Scizor's down, or in a hit-and-run fashion. Superpower also happens to be Scylant's best anti-Scizor move, so if it uses Persuit, predicting a switch, it'll hurt.
 
There are three major problems with Syclant. A: It is weak to Steel, thus weak to Scizor's Bullet Punch, B: Its defenses are very poor, and C: It lacks any strong Fighting moves.

A & B are things that have to be lived with. Syclant can't really do anything about A, regardless of what we can do, Scizor will eat Syclant for breakfast. Giving it better defenses to fix B is pointless, as Bug/Ice is a terrible defensive typing, with weaknesses left and right, meaning Syclant will go down quickly regardless of its stats.

C can easily be fixed though, by simply handing Syclant back Superpower. With Superpower, Syclant can now hurt a lot more Pokemon like it did pre-nerf.
 
Superpower can deal with Kit
Nitpick: /Ghost

Anyways, the point's been stated in Raikaria's post; as long as Scizor is OU, there's little we can do to Syclant itself to boost usage. However, Superpower is definitely a step in that direction (again, already pointed out). But so I'm not an echo, I'll give out reasoning. Perhaps the biggest argument against this is that somebody can slap Superpower on Special Syclant and brush past Blissey, removing his biggest obstacle in sweeping. However, it's not quite that simple...

0 Superpower vs. 0/252 Blissey: 59.60% - 70.35%
-1 Superpower vs. 0/252 Blissey: 39.63% - 46.70%
252 Superpower vs. 0/252 Blissey: 73.43% - 86.64%


While it definitely dents Blissey, unless you throw it out on the switch (and pray really hard), you'll very likely be hit with status, crippling Syclant. The power drop . Even on Physical Syclant, Superpower won't instantly do away with her should she come in without cause. In a nutshell, Superpower won't magically grant Syclant instant sweeping privileges against stall.

Before anybody brings it up I am slightly against Focus Blast simply because Blissey can be set up on, despite the status inflicted.
 

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I suggest adding Vacuum Wave and/or Aqua Jet to its movepool. That way, it has SOME sort of defense versus Scizor.

There's really no other way that the Scizor weakness can be lessened, unless you're going to be extremely bold and recommend adding a Fire-typed Quick Attack to its movepool. :/

Vacuum Wave would be quite easy to add since it's a move tutor move.

EDIT: On second thoughts, Tail Glow + Vacuum Wave would be interesting versus Scizor. :O
 
Sorry about that, thought that Kit was part Dark for a second there, like I always think Darkrai is part Ghost.

I never said 'Superpower will solve all problems', however, Veedrock's post only covers up to 252 Scylant. Swords Dance Scylant OHKO's Blissey with Superpower, provided it's set up (SD on the switch, Blissey is then doomed, or switches out), as does Life Orb Scylant, especially with Stealth Rock support. Considering most Scylant run Life Orb or a Choice Item, we might as well consider Superpower a OHKO on physically based Scylants.

Superpower is also a clean 2HKO on 0 Attack Scylants as Blissey switches in, with hazard support.

Superpower is also a tutor move, like Vaccum Wave is, so there's no real issue about it returning.

Speaking of Vaccum Wave, I actually doubt it's usefulness. It only hits slightly higher than Ice Shard would. While it *could* see use on Specially-based Scylants, I actually doubt that it would do anything to prevent Scizor killing it in the long run, or detter it from doing so. It's kinda good that I doubt it's usefulness, because that means it wouldn't be broken, which means there is no real issue with letting Scylant have it.

Metagross is another problem, just like Scizor, if not worse. It's Bullet Punches deal massive amounts of damage, it's bulkier, and also has Persuit. Earth Power won't deal anywhere near enough damage to stop it, especially as Earth Power + Tail Glow is illegal. Vaccum Wave will be utterly useless against Metagross.
 
It really surprised me when I looked at the basic movesets that they didn't have a Swords Dance moveset anywhere.

It could work along the same lines as the Tail Glow set, plus Ice Shard as priority (albeit weak.)

So far in my use of Syclant (only really since the Colossoil-infested metagame was in full effect) I haven't been able to do that much with it.

Giving it superpower + Swords Dance + X-Scissor + (uhh) night slash, maybe, gives it an unexpected set, as people are preparing for it to be a special threat.
 
I don't really want to give Syclant changes because it can't deal with Scizor. Syclant is meant to be a "glass cannon sweeper", meaning it will have a pretty bad defensive typing and stats, while it has great offensive typing (Bug & Ice is pretty good) and stats. There are many Pokemon that absolutely hate Scizor's presence (Latias, Gengar, Azelf) but they learned how to cope with the problem by using proper team support and whatnot, so you can just do the same with Syclant, like using HP Fire.

What I'd like Syclant to get in its movepool is Spikes. It had this before until it had a movepool revision. I really think Syclant could make use of Spikes very effectively. It has very high Speed, excellent STAB moves, and great stats to back those up. It would almost be like Froslass, as it's one of the fastest Spikers. It would make Syclant so much more useful in this metagame and would help offensive-based teams that need that extra support to keep the offensive momentum, rather than using Skarmory or Forretress for example.
 

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I'm going to post along the same vein as Fuzznip and say that we shouldn't focus on Syclant's weaknesses so much as its strengths. There is no point in tweaking Syclant to beat Scizor, becuase it never will unless it catches it on the switch. Syclant is OHKO'd my most priority attacks, so eliminating one will just invite the others to fill the gap. Unfortunately for Syclant, the glass cannon offensive style is no longer viable in the metagame unless you invest in a ludicrous amount of team support. Syclant won't be sweeping many teams in the near future like it was supposed to, let's put it that way.

Think of it like it's Azelf. When was the last time you saw Nasty Plot Azelf sweep a team? It certainly has the stats for it, however, most Azelfs you're likely to see are going to be suicide leads and supporters because of its tremendous weakness to priority, Pursuit, and attacks in general. Despite its lack of sweeping potential and awful defenses, Azelf was the #1 lead in October and #16 in usage overall.

At this point, it looks like Syclant's only real option is to go the same route, however, its movepool is limited almost exclusively to offensive moves and really suffers when it comes to supporting moves. For this reason, I think we should give Syclant Spikes, Reflect, Light Screen, Baton Pass, and Fake Out, along with possibly Destiny Bond, Explosion, Super Fang, and Trick. Syclant may not be able to switch in to battle very well, but when it can, it can force a lot of things out with its excellent STABs, giving it many opportunities to support the team or scout. And I don't think these additions would make it an Azelf clone, since with better STABs and Mountaneer ability, it should be able to find many more instances to get in the game and cause havoc, be it with its Focus Sash intact or what have you.
 
Fuzznip and Admiral spoke the truth.

I was the one who wrote the movepool Syclant has since the revision, and I think much of his viability was lost when we discarded all the support options it used to have. I'm obviously referring to Reflect, Light Screen and above all Spikes. With Spikes, Syclant could act as a sort of OU Froslass, and make an actually good lead.

On the attacking spectrum, the only things it needs are Superpower and maybe Focus Blast. Don't dream about beating Scizor, because it will never happen. As others said, live with it.

I'd also like to mention Syclant's speed. The icy bug is no longer beaten through outspeeding it, so why not restore the old 121 Speed stat?

EDIT: I'd like also to remind to everyone that there will not be any other playtest for Syclant. So, our considerations should not be limited to Scizor and Blissey, but also mention Kitsunoh and especially Arghonaut. The Water/Fighting monster, from my experience, is THE reason Syclant cannot sweep effectively in the CAP metagame, moreso than Scizor. A move like Aeroblast (not a serious suggestion, more of an example)would help Syclant a lot more than a silly Fire-typed Quick Attack of sorts.
 
I would honestly like to see Syclant have its Speed de-nerfed back to 121, as well as giving it back Superpower as suggested, as well as Spikes, Vacuum Wave, and Grass Knot.

The latter may seem strange, but it is the most reasonable weapon to give Syclant to 2HKO Arghonaut... who was pointed out to be one of the most threatening pokemon to it. Sadly, the Air Slash it already has doesn't quite cut it.

The increase in Speed may seem silly, but I think Syclant really needs that extra boost against other sweepers. Personally, I would like it to go even higher, but that's just me.

However, I am slightly opposed to extra speed AND Spikes. I feel that would make a lead like Spikes/Taunt/Ice Beam/Ice Shard or something of the like incredibly "powerful". If someone can convince me that this is not true I'd be for it though. I just don't want to overdo the revision...
 

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When I used to play Syclant during the prenerf era, the two biggies were probably Superpower and Focus Blast. Of course, this was pre platinum era so there obviously wasn't any bullet punch Scizors around, and these two moves were one of the biggest contributors to Syclant's overall presence, to say the least. I think Syclant has died down with its controversy enough with platinum to say that these moves won't be broken but would be great additions to this things movepool. I don't care about Vacuum Wave either -- it's not a bad addition and it wouldn't exactly hurt. Hell, give it 121 speed and I probably wouldn't care. It's not like Bullet Punch completely devalidates Syclant from OU either, which is pure balls. It's a disadvantage but Syclant can still make do with OU.

Focus Blast was used over Superpower on many sets due to its Tail Glow boost. Most notably it was able to 2HKO blissey and actually made compoundeyes a viable ability for Syclant. Would it be broken? If you felt safe against Colossoil, then Syclant is nothing big.

I'm not particularly for a lead. It doesn't fare too well against Metagross, Scarf Jirachi, Bronzong, Fake Out Infernape, and Stratagem to name a few, and I really find stuffing Syclant with support moves unnecessary. I disagree that Syclant has been nerfed to the point it cant use a simple tail glow set. (rey should post in here to back this up!)
 
I would honestly like to see Syclant have its Speed de-nerfed back to 121, as well as giving it back Superpower as suggested, as well as Spikes, Vacuum Wave, and Grass Knot.

The latter may seem strange, but it is the most reasonable weapon to give Syclant to 2HKO Arghonaut... who was pointed out to be one of the most threatening pokemon to it. Sadly, the Air Slash it already has doesn't quite cut it.

The increase in Speed may seem silly, but I think Syclant really needs that extra boost against other sweepers. Personally, I would like it to go even higher, but that's just me.

However, I am slightly opposed to extra speed AND Spikes. I feel that would make a lead like Spikes/Taunt/Ice Beam/Ice Shard or something of the like incredibly "powerful". If someone can convince me that this is not true I'd be for it though. I just don't want to overdo the revision...
Let's say Syclant gets 121 Speed and Spikes (as opposed to 115). What practical advantage does it gets besides outspeeding Azelf instead to go for the Speed tie? When you also consider that Azelf's Fire Blast (heck, even Flamethrower) easily OHKOes (2HKO with Focus Sash), Syclant needs to forego Spikes if Azelf attacks outright and Syclant wants to come out alive. Most "Anti-Syclant" common leads (Metagross, Scarfrachi, Aerodactyl to a lesser extent) do not give a damn whether Syclant runs 121 or 115 Speed. The only leads affected by this change are Azelf, Starmie and Alakazam, and I don't see it as a big problem, seeing like Azelf has already 10000000000 reasons to be used and something to discourage its use is not necessarily bad.
 

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What exactly do you outspeed in the 116-121 range? It seems pointless. However, what will help is boosting it's movepool slightly. I would agree with Spikes, Superpower, Focus Blast, Vacuum Wave, and maybe the screens. Destiny Bond, Explosion, Trick, Baton Pass, and Super Fang are over the top. I can see Syclant being very useful as a lead with this, Compoundeyes Focus Blast + Blizzard + Spikes + Taunt seems very cool, getting up at least one layer, possibly two.
 
I agree with em. Just de-nerfing Syclant back to 121 base speed. I am opposed to giving it a higher base; especially if we give it Spikes and/or more priority moves. Actually, I'm completely opposed to Spikes. Syclant was meant to be a glass-cannon sweeper (based off its stats), not a suicide lead like Froslass, Aerodactyl, etc.

On terms of moves, I agree with Vacuum Wave, Grass Knot, Superpower,OR Focus Punchand Trick. Vacuum Wave has been explained several times already; but for reference: Vacuum Wave + Tail Glow will help against Scizor, as well as weakened Steel/Ice-types without resorting to HP Fire (actually pretty weak reasons, but Tail Glow + Vacuum Wave would be an interesting combination). Superpower and Focus Punch should also be avaible since Syclant needs a strong fighting attack to deal with the likes of Blissey. However, I am against both of them making the cut. I'm in more approval of Focus Punch; mostly since while it's hard for Syclant to get in, when he does he causes a switch. That switch is ample time to put up a Substitute and start firing off Focus Punch ( McAnt :D). Grass Knot is Syclant's most effective move against Arghonaut, and Swampert. Trick is in the sami vain as Sub/Focus Punch; in which Syclant causes many switches and Trick would possibly fuck over Blissey/Swampert/Special Wall.
 
I agree with em. Just de-nerfing Syclant back to 121 base speed. I am opposed to giving it a higher base; especially if we give it Spikes and/or more priority moves. Actually, I'm completely opposed to Spikes. Syclant was meant to be a glass-cannon sweeper (based off its stats), not a suicide lead like Froslass, Aerodactyl, etc.
Concept threads started to be used since CAP4. The first three CAPs are not bound to a particular concept, so we are not forced to limit our choices in any way. If we want to give Syclant the means to be ALSO a suicide lead, so be it

On terms of moves, I agree with Vacuum Wave, Grass Knot, Superpower,OR Focus Punchand Trick. Vacuum Wave has been explained several times already; but for reference: Vacuum Wave + Tail Glow will help against Scizor, as well as weakened Steel/Ice-types without resorting to HP Fire (actually pretty weak reasons, but Tail Glow + Vacuum Wave would be an interesting combination). Superpower and Focus Punch should also be avaible since Syclant needs a strong fighting attack to deal with the likes of Blissey. However, I am against both of them making the cut. I'm in more approval of Focus Punch; mostly since while it's hard for Syclant to get in, when he does he causes a switch. That switch is ample time to put up a Substitute and start firing off Focus Punch ( McAnt :D). Grass Knot is Syclant's most effective move against Arghonaut, and Swampert. Trick is in the sami vain as Sub/Focus Punch; in which Syclant causes many switches and Trick would possibly fuck over Blissey/Swampert/Special Wall.
Vacuum Wave is pointless IMO. The only thing you are going to need it for is Stratagem, while Grass Knot is an attractive option to dent Arghonaut hard.

I'm not opposed to any Fighting move in particular - not even Focus Punch - but I think Trick is a bit too much. Maybe the problem is that I do not exactly love Tricksters (despite the fact that my most successful CAP team had 3 Trick users!), but I'm simply skeptical about it
 
There seems to be a wide disagreement over what exactly Syclant should and shouldn't be able to do. Let me remind you all that Syclant did not have a concept. You can't say "it was meant to be a sweeper" or "it was meant to be a suicide lead" as it wasn't "meant" to do anything.

That said, I'd like to figure out in which direction we're going to take this. There isn't much point in debating which moves it should be given until we know what we want it to do. Thus, I'm going to assign an arbitrary "mini-concept" to it after a bit of community feedback.

The point of this revision is to make Syclant more viable in the competitive CAP metagame. This can clearly be done in several ways, two of which seem to have become popular ideas: the suicide lead and the sweeper. These will be the two mini-concepts that can be debated from this point.

Personally, I'd like to see Syclant as a sweeper. CAP is about breaking new ground, isn't it? Suicide leads have been done time and again and exist in plenty. I don't even see how Syclant could be much better than Frosslass. Hyper-offensive sweepers are few and far between, and Ice-types are rarer still. I would say the sweeper, if only because "it hasn't been done".
 

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As I said on mirc, one concept I would like to see, not as a final one, but as a delimitation of what we want to do is something among the lines of "Ultimate Suicide Pokemon". This concept can fullfill the roles of Suicide Lead (I see some people are already discussing Lead sets if we give him Spikes) and as a Sweeper. With his really weak defenses Syclant could be described as a "Glass Cannon" which means the concept fills this too.

Just an idea.

(Im all for giving it Superpower, Focus Blast and Spikes btw)
 
I've been supporting Spikes for a good while now in #cap, as I feel that Syclant's role as a sweeper has been seriously compromised by a few factors (the nerf, Scizor, etc.) and that he needs to create himself a niche ("OU Froslass' is what some people have been calling it).

Conversely, I also support giving him back Superpower (despite him already receiving it via Stellar's tutor move list) and Focus Blast, to aid him in sweeping and to give people a choice between suicide lead or late-game sweeper.

On a more aesthetic note, I'd like to see his stats changed to 115 Atk/115 SpA. It doesn't have any adverse effect on the metagame, and it just looks nicer.

EDIT: Basically, I support Rey's Suicide concept whole-heartedly.
 
Syclant, as said by many, is being thought as a "glass cannon" as it has weak defenses, but it may be a little too weak. Most ground-types and many non ground-types can learn rock moves. Ground-type Pokemon are becoming more common as new Pokemon are being added to the ever-expanding Pokedex. Fire-types are starting to become more common, as witht he number of Pokemon with the ability to use Fighting-type moves, such as Focus Punch and Close Combat. I think that the typing and poor HP, Def,and SpD will ruin Syclant. I think the Base HP should be adjusted to become 80 and the Base SpA to become 112.
 
Personally, I'd like to see Syclant as a sweeper. CAP is about breaking new ground, isn't it? Suicide leads have been done time and again and exist in plenty. I don't even see how Syclant could be much better than Frosslass. Hyper-offensive sweepers are few and far between, and Ice-types are rarer still. I would say the sweeper, if only because "it hasn't been done".
I'd like to make you note that, while the cathegory "suicide lead" has been done a lot of times, "suicide SPIKER lead" has not. With 115 (or hell, even 121) Speed, Syclant would be the fastest Spiker in the entire freakin' game bar Deoxys. The only two Spikers in OU above the 80 speed mark - Roserade and Froslass - are too weak to common leads to stand a chance. Syclant could shape a new niche in the OU metagame as the only viable suicidal spiker (much like Deoxys in Ubers), with the right movepool to destroy almost any other lead not named Scarfrachi (even Metagross and Swampert won't enjoy Syclant's almighty Special moves). It could make the CAP metagame far more offensive than now, since with Spikes support walling sweepers will become far harder. And, don't forget it, if we give Syclant also Focus Blast, it will also be a fearsome sweeper.

There is also one important factor some of you have failed to consider, and it is called MANAPHY. Now that it's OU, Manaphy is a very great partner for Syclant, taking Bullet Punches like they were nothing, and threatening Arghonaut with ease thanks to Grass Knot. The presence of Manaphy combined with the boosts it will receive from this revision will grant that Syclant will still enjoy being a sweeper. A lot.
 
What about the elemental fangs? Sure they pack weak power, but it gives Syclant something to scare Scizor from ruining Syclant's day. Ice Fang would obsolete over Ice Shard and Ice Punch, while ThunderPunch may be used from time to time to hit Suicune, who otherwise walls sets easily.

-Terywj
 
To be honest, I do not feel that Syclant can really benefit with an influx of new support moves. What it really must do is adapt to the metagame and thus, new sets must be used. We can't keep using the same Tail Glow set and complain about Scizor.

Gengar is probably the best OU comparison to Syclant as both are fast, frail and have lost a LOT of usage in the DPPt metagame due to Scizor's Bullet Punch. Gengar's Hypnosis accuracy dropped to 60%, Syclant's speed dropped to 115. Gengar is now almost exclusively Choiced, or is under a Sub with HP Fire waiting. If Syclant similarly uses Choice items along with its fantastic Mountaineer Ability to become a hit and run Pokemon, or a lure with a Sub/Tail Glow/Ice Beam/HP Fire type moveslot. If anything, Syclant should regain Superpower, but that is the only move I feel is at all reasonable. It is up to the playtesters to playtest various sets to find out which ones are the most viable in today's metagame.
 
perhaps giving him other viable movesets won´t be useful since it would mean starting the CAP from scratch with its moves and we want to just make him more viable, also turning him into a OU froslass won´t prove anything since CAP is there to test stuff and cloning another pokemon is not its purpose. I am in favour of adding new moves to him, the moves i support are: vaccum wave, superpower, focus blast, spikes, grass knot, explosion and focus punch. Also i am in favour of returning his base 121 speed back. What i want scyant to do is fullfill Ray´s concept of ultimate suicide pokemon wether it be being a glass cannon, a lure with explosion, a suicide lead, or anything else that we can accomplish.
 
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