Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[Aquamentus]

Don't rely on the argument "X is countered by Y, but no one uses Y, so X is broken". That just means people don't feel like letting the metagame adapt. They don't feel like finding solutions to their problems using the more obscure Pokemon/sets and actually helping to make them not obscure. Maybe that sort of attitude is what makes the metagame so stale nowadays. I think the "Upsetting the Metagame" thread can be considered relevant here.

By the way, Scarf Infernape is a gimmick in my eyes, Scarf Rotom, Starmie, and Latias aren't. I'm sure it works, but I don't see it much.

EDIT: The exception is when Y really sucks against everything else but X. Sorry, I think I removed that part by accident.

 

[Roizen]

Again, if you throw out of the window the "X is countered by Y, but no one uses Y, so X is broken", we can unban literally everything. Why banning Wobbu if you can use Shed Shell on everything without Taunt?

 

[Objection]

Again, if you throw out of the window the "X is countered by Y, but no one uses Y, so X is broken", we can unban literally everything. Why banning Wobbu if you can use Shed Shell on everything without Taunt?

What he's saying is that "X is countered by Y, but no one uses Y, so X is broken" should not be the basis of your argument.

By that theory, Starmie is countered by Lanturn, but nobody uses Lanturn, so Starmie is broken. If you're not going to argue for Starmie being broken, then you have to at least refine your idea.

 

[Roizen]

Starmie is countered by Blissey. A lot of people use Blissey. Find an example without logical error please.

 

[Objection]

Starmie is countered by Blissey. A lot of people use Blissey. Find an example without logical error please.

Refine your idea to accomodate the fact that Starmie is a pokemon that is countered by more than one pokemon. I look forward to seeing your results tomorrow morning.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I still want to know specifically what Scarf Gengar and Scarf Starmie do that makes them as useful or even better than Scarf Latias. Please, I'm really interested on it.

So immunity to normal and fighting moves means jack shit, huh?

Yeah, it's cool to be immune to Close Combat, but Latias at least resists it, and also has resistance to Water, Grass, Electric and Fire to compensate. And lol Normal-type moves? In OU?

Being faster than other scarf Latias means jack shit, huh?

Gengar has 110 Speed.

And tell me how Scizor "easily" outclasses Weavile when Weavile is faster (so doesn't need to rely on priority half as much as Scizor) with better offensive typing. Similarly, Mamoswine gets a STAB combo resisted only by Bronzong in OU, plus immunity to Thunder Wave, which Scizor absolutely loathes, so I don't see Scizor outclassing Mamoswine either.

As said, both are "outclassed" because while Scizor can U-Turn in the face of its counters, Weavile and Mamo give free turns and are more susceptible to Stealth Rock and TSpikes. Besides, both are weak to Bullet Punch, which isn't a nice bonus...

I've already shown how the other revenge killers are useful, and you're giving me more here. ScarfMie can probably take on Agiligross too, but I dunno.

Ice Punch does 26% - 30.9% to Scarf Starmie, while everything else does 50%+ (Meteor Miss is 52.7% min). I'm sorry, but Starmie is a really shitty counter (check, revenge killer, whatever) to Metagross.

 

[lati0s]

Again, if you throw out of the window the "X is countered by Y, but no one uses Y, so X is broken", we can unban literally everything. Why banning Wobbu if you can use Shed Shell on everything without Taunt?

using multiple shed shells would weaken your team significantly, when preparing for a threat weakens your team significantly it can be considered broken, however the checks for salamence do not weaken your team significantly, as outlined by the posters before me all of them have uses outside of checking salamence.

 

[Roizen]

Well, I really don't understand your questioning. You answered it yourself. Starmie is countered by more than one pokémon. And more than one of it's counters are in high OU (Blissey, Jirachi, Latias). Salamence has zero counters, and only 2~3 viable revenge killers in OU. Starmie being countered by obscure things means nothing, because it is also countered by overused things. In Mence's case, the majority of the paper checks are very obscure, and there are very very few high OU checks/revengers to it. Understand the difference now? I won't explain again.

EDIT: @above poster, yes, using a Cresselia significantly weakens my team because Cresselia sucks, and the prove that it sucks is its very low usage. Same to things like Bronzong and Weavile. And we are talking about checks/revenge killers, not counters! What I'm trying to point is that the ONLY revenge killers of Mence that don't suck are CB Scizor and ScarfLatias, and this is a damn big overcentralization.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Ice Punch does 26% - 30.9% to Scarf Starmie, while everything else does 50%+ (Meteor Miss is 52.7% min). I'm sorry, but Starmie is a really shitty counter (check, revenge killer, whatever) to Metagross.

I don't know how, but you missed my point there. Latias isn't taking on any Metagross, but Starmie can. It outspeeds Agiligross (according to the other guy, I dunno and I'm too damn lazy to find out, it's irrelevant to Salamence like half of this thread is) and can 2HKO with Hydro Pump, even KO one with < 65%. It can do better than Latias can against it, another niche it has as a scarfer.



alright how the fuck did we get from saying Starmie was a good revenge killer to comparing how well it sweeps to Salamence. This thread is going nowhere. seriously, you were saying starmie wasn't a good revenge killer and now you're pretending like we were all comparing it to mence. none of us were doing that, you need to not twist every post to fit your needs

 

[Deaga]

Oh, and by the way, I've posted quite a few posts that explain what to do when facing Mence. Step One, stop thinking if you don't switch a counter in you lose the game. Step Two, stop thinking if you can't revenge kill it you've lost the game. Step three, learn that if your team is constantly allowing Salamence to set up or you can't play around it, your team is weak to two OU Pokemon.

If you're not countering it and you're not revenge killing it, just how are you planning to defeat Salamence?

 

[Aquamentus]

Starmie vs. Lanturn was just a hypothetical example. Anyway, like I edited my post to say, X is broken even with the presence of Y if Y totally sucks, which Shed Shell would.

None of those revenge killers are one-trick ponies like Shed Shell, they can take out things like Gyarados, Infernape, Lucario, etc too.

I think we're really getting sidetracked though. I think...
*that Salamence isn't the only "almost uncounterable" Pokemon in OU
*that Salamence has actual counters that have low usage and have become regarded as gimmicks
*that Salamence has so many checks, revenge killers, and other issues that it can't really sweep a competitive team by itself, especially considering the drawbacks of Outrage

I think I'm done here for now.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I don't know how, but you missed my point there. Latias isn't taking on any Metagross, but Starmie can. It outspeeds Agiligross (according to the other guy, I dunno and I'm too damn lazy to find out, it's irrelevant to Salamence like half of this thread is) and can 2HKO with Hydro Pump, even KO one with < 65%. It can do better than Latias can against it, another niche it has as a scarfer.

Oh ok, fair enough. I completely overlooked Hydro Pump. HOWEVER, Latias has Trick, and may come in on Earthquake and Thunderpunch (while Starmie has only Ice Punch). It only 3HKOs Gross with the usual set, but as said, it may Trickscarf it. Besides, I'm still waiting for the reasons ScarfMie/Gar are as good as Scarf Latias. Yeah, ok, it may kill/stop Agiligross without resorting to Trick, but what else?

alright how the fuck did we get from saying Starmie was a good revenge killer to comparing how well it sweeps to Salamence. This thread is going nowhere. seriously, you were saying starmie wasn't a good revenge killer and now you're pretending like we were all comparing it to mence. none of us were doing that, you need to not twist every post to fit your needs

No, it was Objection's doing. Read this last page again.

 

[Stylish Interval]

If you're not countering it and you're not revenge killing it, just how are you planning to defeat Salamence?

That kind of mentality is what makes Salamence seem so scary.


You don't have to counter a Pokemon to beat it, this is already proven through Salamence usage for almost a year, maybe even a year now. You don't have to revenge kill it, although that is the preferred method of offensive teams.

A lot of people will have a rater go into the forums and look at their team. They'll look at the team's weaknesses and see if any Pokemon can check Gyarados. Let's say there is only a shaky one. Now he'll say the team is Gyarados weak. But if Gyarados can't switch in on any of those Pokemon and set up comfortably, is the team really Gyarados weak? It isn't. The same thing can be said about Salamence. If your team doesn't let Salamence set up, are you really Salamence weak?

You might say you're MixMence weak. Well alright, you're probably also weak to other Wall Breakers, notably MixNite and MixNape.

You might say Salamence can set up on my team, but I don't have a counter. Well if you can execute your strategy well enough, it still shouldn't be setting up. The game is about executing a strategy. If you get that strategy done more efficiently, you'll beat Salamence to setting up. If you get your strategy done more quickly, you'll beat Salamence to setting up. If you've got a plan to pivot switch to beat Salamence, you'll beat Salamence. You don't have to straight up counter a Pokemon or have a sure-fire (or not so sure fire) check to it to beat it. You have to be able to play around it.

A further example. A team is MixVire weak (and a lot of them are) by the thoughts that you can't counter it. In fact there is some guy who goes around and tells you that you are MixVire weak. Now can you deal with it? Yes you can, or you wouldn't have gotten far up the ladder, as a lot of lower ranked users use it (as far as I can infer from the stats). You don't have a counter, but you know how to play around it.

The same can even be said about Infernape. Latias is the only Pokemon I can think of that can deal with MixNape effectively, (although not always, as it still has a chance of 2HKOing with HP Ice) but we don't scream it's Uber because we can't counter it. In fact, a lot of time we're led to believe we can easily counter it with Vaporeon. Unfortunately, it can be 2HKOd through Close Combat.

Really, can someone teach me how to end a post well? I feel like mine are always kind of open.

Edit for Mario: You're right as far as I can tell, but I'm still young so I may have overlooked something that was done by someone else. Gah. I still think there was a point where Sebastian decided Starmie and Salamence were being compared by me or someone else though.

And concerning the scarfers, I like Gengar over Latias because if Latias gets stuck on Dragon Pulse a steel (aka Metagross, Jirachi, Lucario (possibly I dunno though), Scizor) can come in and set up or possibly even do away with it. Too easy, especially with the lower power compared to Shadow Ball on Gengar. It may get Draco Meteor but then it loses 2 spA and is forced to basically allow a set up and switch, or allow screens/healing, etc. That's why I like Gengar, anyway. Oh I just realized to address the steel part, Gengar still hits neutral on Jirachi and Metagross, can take on Lucario better than Latias because of the immunity to Espeed and CC (and KO if it's at the 40% range, 2HKO after), and still gets a good 60% knocked out of Scizor with Shadow Ball.

 

[Roizen]

Building a team of 6 pokémon who beat Mence one-on-one so it will NEVER EVER setup, aside from the very definition of overcentralizing, is yet another mentality that can unban literally everything. Rayquaza is even less scary than Mence if you build a team of 6 pokémons above base 100 Speed, all with Dragon, Ice or Rock moves. And that is actually viable in OU, but its overcentralization.

EDIT: just to avoid confusion and unnecessary argumentation, I meant that it is a wrong mentality when it is the ONLY way of dealing with a threat, as it is almost Mence's case. If it's the ONLY way, then the threat maybe is broken.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Building a team of 6 pokémon who beat Mence one-on-one so it will NEVER EVER setup, aside from the very definition of overcentralizing, is yet another mentality that can unban literally everything. Rayquaza is even less scary than Mence if you build a team of 6 pokémons above base 100 Speed, all with Dragon, Ice or Rock moves. And that is actually viable in OU, but its overcentralization.

Seriously. Are you kidding me? You think Salamence is going to jump in on your Bulky Water or Ground and just go to town? It isn't. It can't set up on those Pokemon, and it will get beaten by a lot of them if it decides to come in. Can Salamence beat them all 1v1? Theoretically yes he can.

Can Salamence switch in on Pokemon like Heatran or Celebi? It can't. Risking Dragon Pulse/Hp Ice/ Thunder Wave is probably too much. Heck, even risking Leech Seed is too much. Being at 50% after DDing is not good for Salamence. There are a multitude of other Pokemon you aren't switching Salamence in on either. Reason? It can't set up on these Pokemon.

I don't know where you got the idea that I was saying you need a bunch of base 100 or higher Pokemon with Dragon, Ice, or Rock moves.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I agree with poken3rd, Sebastian you've kind of missed the point of what he's said.

A team like:

swampert, rotom, ttar, heatran, salamence, machamp

metagross, flygon, zapdos, celebi, infernape, empoleon

I'm just pulling out random ou pokes, but it's pretty easy to put together a team like the one poken3rd described. Most OU pokemon would fit the description.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

They'll look at the team's weaknesses and see if any Pokemon can check Gyarados. Let's say there is only a shaky one. Now he'll say the team is Gyarados weak. But if Gyarados can't switch in on any of those Pokemon and set up comfortably, is the team really Gyarados weak? It isn't.

How can you say the team has only one "Gyara check" when the other five pokémon ensure Gyara can't stay in (or even switch in)?

The same thing can be said about Salamence. If your team doesn't let Salamence set up, are you really Salamence weak?

How do I stop Mence of using Dragon Dance and then killing/shitting one of my pokémon, without resorting to a team full of Scarfers/priorities, and how do you ensure these same Scarfers/priority users can hold up against the rest of the team (Mamoswine and Weavile being "dead weight" against Stall, as Sebastian said)? I'm not bashing you, it's a honest question.

You might say you're MixMence weak. Well alright, you're probably also weak to other Wall Breakers, notably MixNite and MixNape.

Maybe you're right about MixNape (even though it's a lot easier to stop, imo), but, you know, MixNite has 80 Base Speed...

You might say Salamence can set up on my team, but I don't have a counter. Well if you can execute your strategy well enough, it still shouldn't be setting up. The game is about executing a strategy. If you get that strategy done more efficiently, you'll beat Salamence to setting up. If you get your strategy done more quickly, you'll beat Salamence to setting up. If you've got a plan to pivot switch to beat Salamence, you'll beat Salamence. You don't have to straight up counter a Pokemon or have a sure-fire (or not so sure fire) check to it to beat it. You have to be able to play around it.

You talk as if Salamence was just a noob-killer. "If you execute your strategy first, then Mence can't stop you". What if Salamence appears earlier than you expected? What if it's not the Salamence you were prepared for (you could deal with DDMence but eats a Draco Meteor, in example)? What do you switch in to eat a DM or a DD (as you'll have to take a +1 Earthquake/Outrage the following turn, unless you have priority or a Scarf+101 Base Speed, yaddayadda)? Do note that I used a lot of 'if's, but even then it was less than you.

A further example. A team is MixVire weak (and a lot of them are)

what

by the thoughts that you can't counter it. In fact there is some guy who goes around and tells you that you are MixVire weak.

He's a troll. You really didn't know that?

Now can you deal with it? Yes you can, or you wouldn't have gotten far up the ladder, as a lot of lower ranked users use it (as far as I can infer from the stats). You don't have a counter, but you know how to play around it.

A lot of low-ranked players use physical Electivire. And are also, well, poor players. MixVire is, if anything, used more by the average-to-high-ranked players, and then it's not even much used by them. Besides, if you have a Latias, you're pretty much guaranteed against MixVire. If you don't, Swampert/Flygon (depending on the HP), Heatran and Mamoswine can come in and fuck him over. And it's not even "glorified guesswork" or "play around", it's almost basic prediction (your main STAB being nullified by three of the aforementioned pokémon and also needing Hidden Power to scratch the first two really doesn't help).

The same can even be said about Infernape. Latias is the only Pokemon I can think of that can deal with MixNape effectively, (although not always, as it still has a chance of 2HKOing with HP Ice) but we don't scream it's Uber because we can't counter it. In fact, a lot of time we're led to believe we can easily counter it with Vaporeon. Unfortunately, it can be 2HKOd through Close Combat.

Well, there's Starmie.

Seriously. Are you kidding me? You think Salamence is going to jump in on your Bulky Water or Ground and just go to town? It isn't. It can't set up on those Pokemon, and it will get beaten by a lot of them if it decides to come in. Can Salamence beat them all 1v1? Theoretically yes he can.

"Unless he's Mixmence".

Can Salamence switch in on Pokemon like Heatran or Celebi? It can't. Risking Dragon Pulse/Hp Ice/ Thunder Wave is probably too much. Heck, even risking Leech Seed is too much. Being at 50% after DDing is not good for Salamence. There are a multitude of other Pokemon you aren't switching Salamence in on either. Reason? It can't set up on these Pokemon.

Well.

Can Rayquaza switch in on Pokemon like Heatran or Celebi? It can't. Risking Dragon Pulse/Hp Ice/ Thunder Wave is probably too much. Heck, even risking Leech Seed is too much. Being at 50% after DDing is not good for Rayquaza. There are a multitude of other Pokemon you aren't switching Rayquaza in on either. Reason? It can't set up on these Pokemon.

I agree with poken3rd, Sebastian you've kind of missed the point of what he's said.

A team like:

swampert, rotom, ttar, heatran, salamence, machamp

metagross, flygon, zapdos, celebi, infernape, empoleon

I'm just pulling out random ou pokes, but it's pretty easy to put together a team like the one poken3rd described. Most OU pokemon would fit the description.

Huhhhh

 

[Stylish Interval]

First thing I want to say is thanks for not quoting me and responding in the text box. I love it when people do this it's exciting for me.

How can you say the team has only one "Gyara check" when the other five pokémon ensure Gyara can't stay in (or even switch in)?

They aren't "Gyara checks" by the book or counters by the book like Porygon2, Vaporeon, or ScarfSomethingWithElectricAttack is what I was saying. You wouldn't call Hippowdon a Gyarados Check or Counter, but it can stay in on Gyarados and Roar, forcing it to lose even more HP and Slack Off the lost HP (about half I think). It can even Stone Edge, although that's really rare. I'm saying something like that (although that was a piss poor example I won't lie).

How do I stop Mence of using Dragon Dance and then killing/shitting one of my pokémon, without resorting to a team full of Scarfers/priorities, and how do you ensure these same Scarfers/priority users can hold up against the rest of the team (Mamoswine and Weavile being "dead weight" against Stall, as Sebastian said)? I'm not bashing you, it's a honest question.

I understand, and this is all good. The more I can expand on this the more I can see if what I know is true at it's core and I can't explain it or if it's just a bunch of crap. Again, if Salamence can't switch in (And I'm referring to DDMence, because I think that's the one that's disputed for Offensive Characteristic) and set up it isn't as threatening to your team. If Salamence can't come in on Empoleon and set up then it won't be sweeping. Even MixMence isn't switching in on a lot of things safely, although I don't want to discuss it quite as much.

Maybe you're right about MixNape (even though it's a lot easier to stop, imo), but, you know, MixNite has 80 Base Speed...

Why yes it does, but does that make it any less of a wall breaker? Maybe against Zapdos or Offensive Suicune, yes, but it still beats the (what I like to call) core walls about as well as Salamence.

You talk as if Salamence was just a noob-killer. "If you execute your strategy first, then Mence can't stop you". What if Salamence appears earlier than you expected? What if it's not the Salamence you were prepared for (you could deal with DDMence but eats a Draco Meteor, in example)? What do you switch in to eat a DM or a DD (as you'll have to take a +1 Earthquake/Outrage the following turn, unless you have priority or a Scarf+101 Base Speed, yaddayadda)? Do note that I used a lot of 'if's, but even then it was less than you.

Again, MixSalamence is really the only Salamence that should theoretically be appearing any time outside of mid-late to late game. If Salamence appears earlier than you expected you should be able to play around it/check it even easier as your Pokemon are at more health. And you should be able to deduce what Salamence it was depending on how early in the match it came out, and what it came in on, but I'm assuming smart players which I know are rare. If you took a Draco Meteor you have to be able to rebound, and your team should be built to do so. If you lose, you'll recognize what you can change in your team to deal with the threat, you'll adjust your team to deal with the threat at hand. Next time you'll be able to deal with it.

And as for the "ifs" in my post, my "ifs" were basically examples of taking the time to figure out how your team is going to work and planning out how you would deal with something, rather than just throwing Pokemon together and pretending like you knew how to handle every siutation (not you yourself, but I mean in general like some people do)

what


He's a troll. You really didn't know that?

No, I knew it, but really it was just useless info in my post.

A lot of low-ranked players use physical Electivire. And are also, well, poor players. MixVire is, if anything, used more by the average-to-high-ranked players, and then it's not even much used by them. Besides, if you have a Latias, you're pretty much guaranteed against MixVire. If you don't, Swampert/Flygon (depending on the HP), Heatran and Mamoswine can come in and fuck him over. And it's not even "glorified guesswork" or "play around", it's almost basic prediction (your main STAB being nullified by three of the aforementioned pokémon and also needing Hidden Power to scratch the first two really doesn't help).

Well what I figured was it's still OU and I don't see it playing with an average 1300-1400 CRE so it must be used lower and a lot if it's still OU with that set. Still, you're right, Physical is used more. I guess that was more of a moot point.

Well, there's Starmie.

There's one. Starmie can be used as a Scarfer because it doesn't lose 1/2 it's HP to Infernape possibly. lol But really you're right, a common one I didn't think about.

"Unless he's Mixmence".

He still isn't coming in on those Pokemon. He can't OHKO them with Draco Meteor, and without a +1 he isn't doing much with Outrage. My point is while they can't safely switch in on him, he can't safely switch in on them either.


I see what you did with Rayquaza, but I guess I'll try and argue my case. Salamence doesn't have the power that Rayquaza has. Rayquaza can afford to give up the Life Orb in OU because it can run Lum or Yache or Haban (actually this one might be stupid) due to the fact it has base 150 Atk, Swords Dance + Sub, and priority. It can use Dragon Claw to the same power that Salamence can use Outrage (maybe I dunno, a guess there). I think Salamence can be handled easier due to the fact in order to sweep it's forced to carry LO and is more prone to being statused than something that can give it up and sweep. How I see it, anyway.

Also I think what Chou meant was that you aren't switching in your own Salamence into Salamence to set up. You'd have to early lock yourself into Outrage or give away that you were MixMence (if you weren't a set up Mence)

 

[Nida]

The Rayquaza comparison is a bit hackneyed at this point. Like PokeN3rd points out, a berry variant (especially YacheQuaza) could do things to the OU metagame that Salamence can only dream and drool about. Ray has remained Uber in part because its increased power gives it increased versatility. Of course, if you seriously believe that it's time to test Ray, that's a whole 'nother thread. :)

So how long do we have to keep whining at each other until someone finally grudges out a test? At this point, I'm itching to make a Mence-based team and make it to #1 on OU. I want to be like everyone else on Shoddy who uses Mence and therefore is automatically a high-ranked battler because of the free wins. :D

 

[MrIndigo]

I do realize that, and I just felt like pointing something out.

I do look at the whole OU metagame, as I did point out some stuff in my previous posts. What is your logic on why Mence is uber? I am very curious on why you think it is so hard to counter, and why you can't figure out a consistent way to beat it.

I don't think Salamence is definitely Uber, and I personally haven't had that much difficult when facing against it, my posts are just clarifications/comments on arguments that have been raised for it (and against it, in a few places).

What I do think is that there are prima facie reasons to test it; a sizable number of people, including a number of notable battlers, have suggested they think it is too strong for OU, and there is no clear-cut arguments that unequivocally show one way or another, which means a test season for it would be valuable.

I don't play competitive all that much anyway, so it means less to me than it could do, but I am interested in good administration and the philosophy behind making house rules and balancing games.

If anything, I'd want Salamence moved to Ubers because I don't really play Ubers and Salamence has some of the shittiest artwork in the pokemon universe, so I'd rather not have to look at it. :D

 

[MrIndigo]

I understand, and this is all good. The more I can expand on this the more I can see if what I know is true at it's core and I can't explain it or if it's just a bunch of crap. Again, if Salamence can't switch in (And I'm referring to DDMence, because I think that's the one that's disputed for Offensive Characteristic) and set up it isn't as threatening to your team. If Salamence can't come in on Empoleon and set up then it won't be sweeping. Even MixMence isn't switching in on a lot of things safely, although I don't want to discuss it quite as much.

Just a minor point; the pokemon on the whole is nominated, not just the set. Part of the argument for Salamence-as-Uber is that he can do both sets equally well and they are not both covered by the same "counter". That's part of what makes Salamence (allegedly) fit the Offensive characteristic, not because it had the one set that does.

 

[Zenotwapal]

My opinion on Salamence:

For one, Salamence can hit really hard physically. Which is good, atleast iun the OU teir.
In Ubers, Salamence doesn't face such abundance of Physically weak pokemon, and runs into walls like Giratina, Lugia, and Ho-Oh, and gets ripped to shreads by them.
It isn't invincible like Garchomp was in OU (once Garchomp got a SD, all hell broke loose), Salamence can be scared off, and beaten by things in the OU environment.
Salamence is OU for good.

 

[Objection]

Yeah, it's cool to be immune to Close Combat, but Latias at least resists it, and also has resistance to Water, Grass, Electric and Fire to compensate. And lol Normal-type moves? In OU?

*cough*Fake Out*cough*

Gengar has 110 Speed.

My second point was referring to Starmie, who has base 115 speed, not Gengar. And then there's Scarf Infernape, who can run a mixed set rather nicely, even though he is still slower than Scarf Latias. However, what I want to know is, what characteristics does a Scarfer need to be "better" than Scarf Latias?

As said, both are "outclassed" because while Scizor can U-Turn in the face of its counters, Weavile and Mamo give free turns and are more susceptible to Stealth Rock and TSpikes. Besides, both are weak to Bullet Punch, which isn't a nice bonus...

Scizor having U-turn and resistance to Bullet Punch does not mean it outclasses Weavile and Mamoswine.

Also, how many times do I have to say that low usage is not conclusive evidence of a pokemon being crap. Ambipom is UU yet I've found him to be quite a good lead (and he can help to bring down DDMence with his Technician-boosted Fake Outs), and Shaymin is BL but makes a nice alternative to Celebi if you're paranoid about Pursuit weakness. Yes, these examples are situational. CB Scizor is also situational - you wouldn't use one on a stall team, would you.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Last time I checked, the "use the obscure counter!!!" argument didn't save a pokémon's skin from the suspect test, or else we would have a metagame full of ScarfSuicunes and ScarfCresselias countering Chomp.

Hell, we are agreeing over the fact that Mence makes players use bizarre extreme tactics to not be swept by it. I'm not saying that Mence is uber because of that (even if it IS my personal opinion), I'm saying that it makes Mence a deserver of the test.

No, only the players who don't find a passive counter have to resort to bizzare tactics. Ice Shard users have found their way onto teams for their other abilities, and Porygon2 finds his way in for Trace, Ice Beam, Recover, and Thunderbolt, making him just plain useful. Using useful pokemon on your team to counter Mence and do other things shows that Mence is not Uber. Still, a test might put those suspicions to rest. However, I still think that Salamence does not need a test.

I'm posting separately from my other post because this is unrelated to my other post, save for the subject remaining Salamence

In Ubers, Salamence doesn't face such abundance of Physically weak pokemon, and runs into walls like Giratina, Lugia, and Ho-Oh, and gets ripped to shreads by them.

Performance in Ubers is not the criteria for OU versus Ubers. The criteria is versus other OU pokemon.

 

[Acritter]

This thread is devolving into theorymon (sadly, not the user), so can we please get back on topic? As Indigo said, there is significant feeling that Salamence is uber, so can anyone show why giving Salamence a suspect test would be a BAD THING?