Advanced Tiers Revisited revisited

[makiri]

I agree with Hipno... You can't move everything down to BL that isn't used all the time, you should only move stuff down that really isn't used atall. Ninjask shouldn't be moved, nor should alot of things that people have suggested. Oh and, person 2 Posts up, why the hell are you moving Gyarados down. And Medicham. And Weezing. You don't need to move everything down that isn't Jesus, you know. Otherwize we'd have a Standard Tier list with, like 6 Pokés. IMO the only stuff I really think you should move down are Gardevoir and Exeggutor, and then everything else should stay as it is

I'm pretty sure I have a name that isn't that hard to find, but in response, Gyra was moved down because to tell you the truth, it's not as played as a Tyranitar or Salamence, those two are much better DDers and sure Gyra gets taunt but whats the use when I killed one with my HP Flying Skarmory, it's not used as much and last time I check the tiers still go by usage. Weezing is another example of another pokemon outclassing it and therefore being used more, Skarmory and Claydol, Skarmory can phaze and spike, Claydol can Rapid Spin, kill the rapid spin counter, and even take a hit or two, Weezing's usability lies in its Hazing and WoW, and I'm sure alot of people will agree that phazing is better because you can see what the opponent has, and can completly get rid of the threating pokemon. I moved pokemon down because of usage, but when I moved Deoxys-E and Jirachi/Celebi, it was because Deoxys-E wouldn't affect much in the metagame and Jirachi/Celebi are begining to gain a bit of dominance over OU. Other than those three and Wynaut, everything was moved because of usage and not because it didn't qualify as "Jesus." The pokemon in BL could still be used in OU, and I think you have failed to recognize that.

 

[Bologo]

Kk, I've had like 75 or so battles in total and this is what I think. Any pokemon that I move down to BL is because I have literally never seen one on netbattle before.

Breloom => BL
Charizard => BL (sorry...)
Claydol => BL
Donphan => BL
Dusclops => BL
Forretress => BL
Gardevoir => BL
Marowak => BL
Regirock => BL
Tauros => BL

 

[JeffroBaggins]

Kk, I've had like 75 or so battles in total and this is what I think. Any pokemon that I move down to BL is because I have literally never seen one on netbattle before.

Breloom => BL
Charizard => BL (sorry...)
Claydol => BL
Donphan => BL
Dusclops => BL
Forretress => BL
Gardevoir => BL
Marowak => BL
Regirock => BL
Tauros => BL

Ugg...that's so weird because I see Tauros, Breloom and Donphan a lot. It's just too random from one personal experience to another to really get a clear picture of all this. Maybe a poll would help but then again, probably not...

 

[Bologo]

Ugg...that's so weird because I see Tauros, Breloom and Donphan a lot. It's just too random from one personal experience to another to really get a clear picture of all this. Maybe a poll would help but then again, probably not...

Meh, it'll just get changed by what the majority say here. From what it looks like so far, something like Gardevoir hasn't been seen at all by a lot of people. But I do agree that one personal experience to another isn't the most reliable way either, but oh well.

 

[X-Act]

It really depends on who you play and when you play. My timezone is a little bit weird, so I'm sure I play against different players than others. It doesn't make Ninjask OU just because _I_ see lots of it, it seems.

 

[Animerocks]

i have been seeing pleanty of raikou leads as of late to,so leave raikou alone for the moment.

 

[Sir Spanky]

Breloom => BL
Charizard => BL (sorry...)
Claydol => BL
Donphan => BL
Dusclops => BL
Forretress => BL
Gardevoir => BL
Marowak => BL
Regirock => BL
Tauros => BL

I guess I agree with Breloom, (Claydol?), Zard, Gardy, Marowak and Regirock. I see plenty of Donphy/Forry/Tauros though, they are definitely OU.

 

[X-Act]

Claydol isn't BL, I see it in 30-40% of teams. :(

 

[RaiSol]

Raichu => BL

(And because I am discussing UU to BL, I'm able to talk about power and usefulness, right? Hopefully I understood Chaos correctly...)

Raichu is packing some serious S.Atk power behind already useful moves such as T.Bolt (STAB) and Surf, and he's got the speed to boot (And potentially sweep with a speed base of 100). Also, because it has a great move pool, Raichu can also make use of a Wish/Substitute strategy (As illustrated by the strategy analysis), as well as another strategy involving a fighting-type attack, Reversal. However, an Electric type armed with Surf (Especially a S.Atk stat like that) should be alarming enough, if not something to be highly aware of.

And unlike his pre-evolved form, Raichu's Atk stat is also very nice (mirroring his S.Atk at a suprisingly good base of 90), giving him lots of power behind a SubPunch strategy, not to mention that a well-timed Encore/Focus Punch combo could potentially turn the tides in a battle (Being that Raichu has already got some speed, oftentimes you can see which move you could Encore, as opposed to just predicting/blind guessing with slower pokemon choices). And on top of his good move pool, both his attack stats seem a cut above much of the UU crowd upon comparison. (His Atk stats actually suprised me when I first took a look at them. By no means should he even be assosiated with Pikachu...)

But since his HP and Def aren't too great, he requires some good prediction upon switiching in, making him tricky to use at times. But his great attacking stats, good speed, and diverse move pool seem to make Raichu very handy. Perhaps even a little too handy for hanging with those in the UU tier, seeing as how he can handle a multitude of types with the right moveset (Paired with his great offensive stats).

Rai may be underrated, but he is highly flexible when put in the right hands.

(The main beef with Rai is that he seems to have trouble with Grass and Dragon types... In that case, I suppose suppose you could always switch out another move for HP Ice if you so please...)

NOTE: Also, keep in mind that Reversal, Surf, and Wish cannot be used in the same moveset, being egg moves and whatnot. Therefore, it's important to pick one of Raichu's (potentially) best egg moves mentioned above, and build a strategy around it. However, Surf seems to be more of a stand-alone attack, and best fits with the SubPunch set metioned in the Strategy Analysis. Word.

EDIT: Base stats are the numbers within the colored bars in the Smogon Pokedex, right? Just want to make sure that I get my specs right.

 

[Snapple]

I don't think the difference between OU and BL should be changed just based on what people are seeing in immediate trends.

Trends in certain pokemon can change on a week to week basis. If you want a more stable list of OU and BL, I think you need to look at what's been consistent over the last few months or so. There's been a trend away from Blissey lately, just because people are tired of seeing it, but you all know that isn't going to last. That's why these temporary trends shouldn't be the basis for a list that's only going to be updated once a year or once every six months.

I don't think moving pokemon like Tauros and Donphan down to BL fits with that trend, because enough people have used them.

 

[Altmer]

Ubers

Deoxys
Deoxys-E
Deoxys-F
Deoxys-L
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Mew
Mewtwo
Rayquaza
Wobbuffet
Wynaut

Fine as it is.

Standards

Aerodactyl --> Haven't seen a lot of these, I'd put this in BL.
Alakazam
Blaziken
Blissey
Breloom
Celebi
Charizard --> BL for SURE.
Claydol
Donphan
Dragonite --> This thing shouldn't go in BL. It's way too good for that.
Dugtrio
Dusclops --> People don't use stall teams anymore, but it's still used enough to warrant OU imo.
Exeggutor --> BL
Flygon
Forretress
Gardevoir --> this should go where zam goes
Gengar
Gyarados
Heracross
Jirachi
Jolteon
Ludicolo --> BL
Magneton
Marowak --> BL
Medicham
Metagross
Milotic
Moltres --> Keep this in Standard. It got enough of an upgrade through XD.
Ninjask --> BL
Raikou
Regice
Regirock --> BL
Rhydon --> BL
Salamence
Sceptile
Skarmory
Slaking
Snorlax
Starmie
Steelix --> I like steelix actually, I use it on 70% of my OU teams. OU is good. :)
Suicune
Swampert
Tauros --> Never see this. BL.
Tyranitar
Umbreon --> This thing is so rapist. OU PLEASE, I swear this never dies.
Vaporeon
Venusaur --> This should remain in OU, I've seen enough saur to warrant it.
Weezing
Zapdos

Borderline

Note: Because Smogon UU Rules do not allow Borderlines in the Underused metagame (unlike many other websites), this category is used to differentiate the Standard Pokémon that are not as commonly used, but can play well or decently in the Standard metagame or are too powerful for Underused.

Arcanine
Armaldo
Articuno --> Sadly BL.
Chansey --> remove
Cloyster --> OU or BL are both fine
Crobat
Dodrio
Entei --> Might as well make it NU if it's about usage.
Espeon
Hariyama
Houndoom
Jumpluff --> UU, nice to use once in a while imo but it never really does anything.
Jynx
Kadabra --> remove
Kingdra
Lapras
Machamp
Miltank
Porygon2
Registeel
Scizor
Slowbro
Smeargle
Swellow --> UU
Typhlosion
Ursaring
Zangoose --> UU, I never see one of these.


Underused
Absol
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Arbok
Azumarill
Banette
Bellossom
Blastoise
Butterfree --> Wherever Venomoth is this should go too. NU.
Camerupt
Cacturne
Clefable --> PLEASE THIS THING IS A MENACE NOT UU FABLE IT RAPES LITERALLY EVERYTHING WITH THAT MOVEPOOL. Clefable should be BL for sure. If you can make 8 sets and 9 other options, why the hell is it UU? BL please.
Cradily
Dunsparce
Electabuzz
Electrode
Exploud
Fearow
Feraligatr
Flareon
Gligar
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Hypno --> BL
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Lanturn
Linoone
Lunatone
Magmar
Manectric
Mantine
Meganium
Misdreavus
Mr. Mime --> BL. Seen that movepool? I thought so. Rapes shit, is used on BP chains, this needs BL.
Muk
Nidoking --> I'd put this and his wife in BL, but UU is fine too. It rapes a lot though.
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Octillery
Omastar
Persian
Pinsir
Politoed
Poliwrath
Primeape
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Rapidash
Sableye
Sandslash
Scyther
Seviper
Sharpedo
Shedinja
Shiftry
Slowking
Sneasel
Solrock
Stantler
Tangela
Tentacruel
Victreebel
Vileplume
Walrein
Xatu
Yanma --> NU.

Neverused
Aipom
Ariados
Beedrill
Beautifly
Castform
Chimecho
Corsola
Crawdaunt
Delcatty
Delibird
Dewgong
Ditto
Dustox
Farfetch'd
Furret
Girafarig
Glalie
Huntail
Illumise
Kecleon
Ledian
Lickitung
Luvdisc
Magcargo
Masquerain
Mawile
Mightyena
Minun
Murkrow
Noctowl
Nosepass
Parasect
Pelipper
Pidgeot --> UU, movepool is on par with swellow, just slightly inferior stats.
Piloswine
Plusle
Raticate
Relicanth
Seaking
Shuckle
Spinda
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Swalot
Togetic
Torkoal
Trapinch
Tropius
Unown
Venomoth
Volbeat
Wailord
Whiscash
Wigglytuff --> UU.

 

[Animerocks]

so out of curiousity,is their a set date or somthing on when the tier list is gonna change,im just asking this seening as it has been pinned for a little while now.

 

[Brood_Star]

Probably when the beta of the new site is released

 

[mmartin]

Altmer:
Jumpluff(fagit subseeder) should be UU the time Aero is. X/ Keep them where they are.

The one poke i think need to be downgrading is Forry. Sadly, while he is cool, he isn't better than BL.
Otherwise, i agree with Altmer.

 

[Altmer]

There is one difference between aero and jumpluff and that is that aero can damage things while jumpluff sits there and dies to rock blast and co.

aero actually can damage something. jumpluff just sucks offensively. if you want a subseeder use sceptile.

 

[gene]

Do not downgrade Jumpluff. Being forced to use Rock Blast to kill is stupid. The only UU that gets Rock Blast is Golem who is OHKO'd by HP Grass. There is nothing faster than Jumpluff in pure UU (except Persian who is rare). Jumpluff is totally broken in UU, keep it BL.

 

[monkfish]

Most of my experience is in UU so if I make some irrational move in Standard just ignore it. For some I've just made comments because I've seen some suggestions in this thread that I disagree with.

Standards

• Aerodactyl --> BL
• Alakazam --> BL
• Blaziken --> BL
• Breloom --> BL
• Charizard --> BL
• Exeggutor --> BL
• Gardevoir --> BL
• Ludicolo --> BL
• Marowak --> BL
• Medicham --> BL
• Moltres --> BL
• Regirock --> BL
• Rhydon --> BL
• Slaking --> BL
• Steelix --> BL
• Tauros --> BL
• Venusaur --> BL

Borderline

• Chansey --> Keep here or people will start claiming it's NFE and use it in UU
• Cloyster --> Standard
• Hariyama --> UU
• Kadabra --> Same as Chansey
• Miltank --> UU
• Scizor --> UU
• Smeargle --> Standard (Just as common as Ninjask - i.e. baton passing)
• Swellow --> STAY HERE. Swellow is too powerful for UU.

Underused

• Absol --> NU* Absol is never used except by newbs who see the first name on the tier list and think it looks cool
• Arbok --> NU*
• Bellossom --> NU*
• Butterfree --> NU
• Cacturne --> NU
• Exploud --> NU*
• Flareon --> NU? Most tiers classify it as NU, I never see it
• Golduck --> NU*
• Gorebyss --> NU*
• Hitmonchan --> NU
• Kingler --> NU*
• Mantine --> NU*
• Nidoqueen --> NU*
• Ninetales --> NU*
• Octillery --> NU*
• Persian --> NU*
• Rapidash --> NU
• Sandslash --> NU*
• Seviper --> NU
• Sneasel --> NU*
• Stantler --> NU*
• Tangela --> NU
• Tentacruel --> NU* For some reason, people are suggesting BL tier for this. I NEVER SEE IT in UU, so based on usage that makes it NU. It certainly isn't too good for UU :x
• Xatu --> STAY HERE. Xatu is cool ;_; it is on my main team which makes it used!

Neverused

• Furret --> UU
• Girafarig --> UU!!!
• Pelipper --> UU? I have seen this used on a fair few UU teams and it isn't bad
• Torkoal --> UU? Needs more attention
• Volbeat --> UU, used for Tail Glow
• Whiscash --> UU, seen a lot

Not Currently In Tiers For Whatever Reason

• Roselia --> NU
• Clamperl --> NU*
• Pikachu --> UU
• Vigoroth --> NU*
• Duskull --> NU*
• Pupitar --> NU*
• Larvitar --> NU
• Haunter --> BL

All NFEs in UU unless otherwise stated (Haunter, Chansey & Kadabra, basically)
*

Because there is not a noticable amount of Pokemon being split, we do not have enough Pokemon to effectively create a faux tier.

As you can see, there are (in my experience) a hell of a lot of UU pokemon that are technically Never Used but are far too good for that tier - 16 by my count. I don't see any way around that other than another faux tier for NU, just as Standard and UU have Ubers and BL, or just defining the UU/NU tiers by power and leaving the OU/UUNU split to usage. I realise that this is a low priority as the Standard metagame is what people care about most.

 

[Jibaku]

Aerodactyl shouldn't be BL as its is one of the most fearsome Choice Banders around, and I see it quite commonly

Venusaur too.

Steelix has been increasing in usage, and I think its good/used enough to be placed in the OU tier.

 

[Hicky]

Monkfish, That's way to much to move down. I see Tentacruel used regularly in UU, and although most of your UU suggestions are good, Gorebyss, although inferior to Omastar can BP to a counter and it would make Huntail not used. And you're saying things like Furret should be UU and Tentacruel NU, and that's stupid ¬¬

 

[Juuka]

Moltres has a sweet full HP heal from Morning Sun when used with Sunny Day, which helps its Flamethrower also so it should stay standard. Medicham has 720 attack which is really good, so it should stay OU.

 

[toy]

the amount you see a pokemon and how good it actually is are comopletely differant

Machamp = Never seen

Machamp = Anti Metagame

because heracross is better?

Cross Chop > STAB Megahorn anyday

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I just want to say that Aerodactyl is one of the best choice banders ive ever used and I dont think it should go to BL. I see it often. Ive used Venusaur and he is fantastic and I also seem him often as an opener. I reckon Rhydon and Tauros need to go down as I rarely see them. I also think Ludicolo should stay in Standard. I also think the fact that someone can even think of putting stuff like Claydol, Gardevoir and Eggy down is ludicrous. Not to mention. If Celebi, Eggy, Ludicolo, Breloom and Venusaur change tiers, all we will be left with is Sceptile for grass Pokemon in OU.

But, I think that Pupitar and Shelgon need to be on the tier lists somewhere with their own pages. Does anyone know how Pupitar and Shelgon wreck havoc in NFE? After a few Dragon Dances they are seemingly invincible. Not to mention that Shelgon is clearly the best pure Dragon type in the game and why would Drake of the E4 have one if it was weak. Pupitar on the other hand can really hurt others in NU since its Earthquake can be stronger than a Tyranitar's Earthquake thanks to STAB. Pupitar is a unique Rock/Ground type thanks to its stats and movepool and ability, and I think it needs it own page or to at least be in the tier list somewhere, even if its in NU. I also think Shelgon deserves to be on the tier list, with its own article too since it is rather different to Salamence. Even Pokerealm say Pupitar and Shelgon are UU, but here it is not even considered to be NU. Something needs to change...

 

[Great Sage]

I've seen a lot of Houndoom lately (like one in 3 OU teams have one), and a hell of a lot of Cloyster. Haunter should be at BL, since Kadabra is, and Haunter is only slightly weaker than Kadabra. I've also seen a good number of Lapras lately.

 

[Sellem]

^ Its retarted for you to fill this thread up with a long ass battle log post of a Venusaur being played improperly anyways. Try Sleep powder, Sludge bomb, eq, swords dance for more success.
On topic:
Cloyster needs to be bumped to OU
Houndoom OU
Raichu BL
and Gardevoir BL

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

^ Its retarted for you to fill this thread up with a long ass battle log post of a Venusaur being played improperly anyways. Try Sleep powder, Sludge bomb, eq, swords dance for more success.
On topic:
Cloyster needs to be bumped to OU
Houndoom OU
Raichu BL
and Gardevoir BL

Cloyster used to be OU, so I can't see it going back up. I find Gardevoir okay in Standard. I see it rather often. I guess Houndoom should be OU. Ive used it and its fairly effective. I dunno about raichu though. Jolteon, Zapdos and Raikou can do their jobs better than Raichu.