[RMT/OU] Bring Da Pain >:-)

[djtoxic]

Hello guys, this is my first RMT at Smogon. At first, I thought this team wasn't going to perform well, but hey, it did :D. So far, only hail teams have been a big problem because I know I have a pretty ugly ice weakness, and my ice "melter" is a poke with a pretty bad weakness against water.
Before I start I want to mention I'm going to use this team in netbattle (but using smogon tier), because I just can't stand shoddy battle speed/interface, so for now, I won't be able to switch a poke to a rotom form (and BTW, I don't want to make this a "use shoddy, netbattle sucks" thread)

Without further ado, I present you the Bring Da Pain team!

At a Glance:

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Team Building:

After so much time looking for the perfect "lead" I've only found slow easily-tauntable leads, suicide leads who does his job OR take suicide but almost never both, leads who depend on luck (sleepers) among a few others, but so far, this guy usually in my team but never in the lead, can OHKO common leads or at least 2HKO them. MixMence variant.

I'm pretty sure the best partner for Salamence is Heatran, and he always does a great job in any team ;-)

In order to cover heatran weakness to water (again, I really like having that guy alive) I chose big DD bulky gyarados, having a taunter on the team is a must have in order to destroy annoyer teams (quite a lot of em on NetBattle), and, if gengar's dead, it gets rid of togekiss/blissey.

Now, something to counter gyarados weakness to electric moves, AND, because of my team lacking anti-psychic moves (switching to gengar=sacrifice him) an X-Scissor user. But that's not all, this guy sets up stealth rock "when the time is right", and offers enough bulkiness to take physical hits.

This roserade started as a test for a toxic spikes team, which failed (really, it is fun until a calm mind latias comes out), now, I wanted to complement my gliscor's stealth rock in order to make sure my sweepers OHKO easily, so I modified some things and made this grass knot/leech seed/sleep powder/spikes moveset for her.

Now that I have prepared the way for my sweepers, I don't want a spinner to ruin my fun right? It was time for a ghost poke. A rotom-w or a rotom-f would fit well, but as I said, I have to wait to netbattle to update in order to use them, so for now, my all-time favourite ghost pokemon, gengar.

As a replacement for roserade, Maxim suggested using instead a Jirachi, however, I changed body slam for energy ball in order to have a grass move in the team.

Replacing Salamence, Dragonite, giving extra bulkiness and a priority move at the cost of little speed.

After spending an entire afternoon thinking about improving the team, I came up with some radical changes. Gliscor is replaced for Rotom-C, we still have ground inmunity, no electr inmunity but we resist it, and we'll no longer miss roserade having Leaf Storm. Jirachi is replaced for a Lucario sweeper, still kills blissey, still kills mence and dragon co., but way too much harder :D.

In depth:

Changes will be in Bold

Niter (F/Dragonite)@Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EV's: 16Atk/252Spd/240SAtk
Nature: Naive (+Spd -SDef)

Draco Meteor
Extreme Speed
Earthquake
Fire Blast

Salamence was replaced by Dragonite, and its role it's the same: LEAVE NO ONE ALIVE!!!! Hitting as hard as mence but a little slower, the speed difference worths it for extra bulkiness and a priority move, Extremespeed.
If a lead doesn't have a powerful steelbreaker move along with a dragonkiller move, it ain't nothing, but that's just my opinion, and this guys suits it.

Synergy:
Ice: Heatran, Lucario
Dragon: Heatran, Lucario
Rock: Heatran/Gliscor (they don't really cover it, but are neutral and can take em out easily; future reference for this situation is CK, can kill), Lucario

Heatran (M/Heatran)@Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EV's: 6HP/252Spd/252SAtk
Nature: Naive (+Spd -SDef)

Dragon Pulse
Earth Power
Stealth Rock
Flamethrower

Heatran is the perfect couple for Salamence, it is my revenge killer, my fire/ice/dragon/wall, an special sweeper, what else can I ask?
Now that Gliscor is gone, this guy is the stealth rocker, nice moment to lay them down is when I switch him in in order to take a fire atk (unless the foe can use an earth move).

Synergy:
Water: Dragonite, Gyarados
Fight: Gengar, Dragonite, Gyarados, Rotom-C
Ground: Dragonite, Gyarados

Gyrann (F/Gyarados)@Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EV's: 156HP/72Atk/96Def/184Spd
Nature: Adamant (+Atk -SAtk)

Stone Edge
Dragon Drance
Taunt
Waterfall

DD Bulky Gyarados perfoms well giving a ground immunity to counter heatran's 400% ground weakness, and waterfall to (after DD) OHKO Tar or Gliscor (most common EQ users), bounce's always useful and taunt kills any attempt of parafusing.

Synergy:
Electr: Rotom-C
Rock: Heatran (CK), Lucario

Rotom-C (Genderless/Rotom-C)@Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EV's: 252 HP / 72 Def / 96 SpA / 88 Spe
Nature: Timid (+Spd -Atk)

Shadow Ball
Thunder Bolt
Will-o-Wisp
Leaf Storm

Gliscor replacement, gives inmunity to ground moves (like gliscor), and is not inmune to electricity but it resists it. It is quite bulky, gives a grass move, a thunderbolt stab, and marvelous will-o-wisp. Gengar should be jealous ;-)

Synergy:
Ground: Dragonite, Gyarados
Ghost: Heatran, Lucario
Dark: Lucario, Heatran

Lucario (M/Lucario)@Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EV's: 252Atk/4Def/252Spd
Nature: Jolly

Close Combat
Ice Punch
Extremespeed
Crunch

Replacing Jirachi (who used to replace roserade), his steel type gives almost the same resistances Jirache had, but is a much better sweeper. Close Combat (his signature move) hits for an amazing damage, 120 base power, it's a STAB, increased power by full Atk EV's, and Choice Band, this thing is the worst fear anything that can't resist fighting moves have. Extremespeed makes him work as a revenge killer, Ice punch is THE move against dragons and other common threats, and crunch is there for those ugly latias.

Synergy:
Fire: Dragonite, Heatran, Gyarados
Ground: Rotom-C, Dragonite, Gengar, Gyarados
Fighting: Gengar, Rotom-C, Gyarados, Dragonite

Gar (M/Gengar)@Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EV's: 16Atk/240Spd/252SAtk)
Nature: Hasty (+Spd -Def)

Explosion
Focus Blast
Shadow Ball
Thunder Bolt

Gengar is the switch in for rapid spinners, special walls and suicide leads, he can take out forretress/blissey/miltank with focus blast and starmie/tentacruel with thunder bolt, so he does what he's meant to, and excel at it.

Synergy:
Psychic: Heatran
Ghost: Heatran, Lucario
Dark: Heatran, Lucario


Changelog:
- Replaced Bounce for Stone Edge, Gyrann's moveset. Thanks mudkipmaster
- Changes will be bold only now, and pokemon names will no longer be bold unless they are replaced for another poke.
- Replaced Roserade for Jirachi. Thanks Maxim
- Jirachi changed to Physical Choice from Wish Support. Thanks Oxymentus
- Fixed typo @ shadow ball (yeah, I play a warlock on wow :P)
- Replaced Salamence for Anti-Lead Nite. Thanks supermath64@IRC RMT channel
- Updated synergy info, changing salamence to dragonite and deleting roserade
- Replaced Gliscor for Rotom-C, replaced Jirachi for Lucario. Updated Synergy. Changed Explosion on Heatran for Stealth Rock.
- Fixed a few minor errors.

Conclusion:

As you can see, my team relies a lot on heatran, and has weaknesses against common pokes like latias or weavile. So, thanks for your time, and I'll be anxiously waiting suggestions ^^.

PS: My native language is not english, if you see a typo, a mistake, or something you don't understand, please let me know.

 

[mudkipmaster]

One threat I see is CMcune which is pretty popular actually...LOVE the MixMence as a lead most people will be surprised. Switch Gyarados' Bounce with stone edge because it looks like youll need more flying, fire, and ice coverage than grass. IF your going to have Gliscor bulky might as well take a little bit more EV's out of speed and more into def. MOst people wont run a max spd Gliscor

 

[Aura Guardian]

Your Roserade description seems lacking. Could you increase it (unless you replace it)

You are incredibly vulnerable to Starmie, some of which outspeed all of your team excpept Heatran. Thunderbolt + Ice Beam + Surf devastates you, except for Heatran, provided it doesn't switch in on Surf (Ice Beam will do fine for swwitching in) and Gengar, which is still frail (but can outspeed many Starmie). As such, I have provided this, copied directly from the Starmie analysis.

Quote from the analysis

Blissey, Snorlax, and Lanturn switch in for free and all can pack super effective attacks. Snorlax also has Pursuit, which can KO a fleeing Starmie. Blissey should take caution of Trick, while Snorlax is a good receiver if it's a Choiced variant as well. Thanks to Pursuit, it can harm Starmie while it flees. Lanturn resists every attack Starmie usually carries except Grass Knot, which does very little to the light Lanturn. Lanturn also doesn't mind being Tricked Choice Specs at all. Milotic that focus on Special Defense can take two Thunderbolts, but it has some issues with Trick due to being dependent on Leftovers.
While most Pursuiters aren't guaranteed a safe switch-in, Pokémon such as Heracross, Tyranitar, Weavile, Metagross, and Scizor all scare Starmie with their powerful Pursuits. However, Heracross has to watch out for Psychic, Weavile has to watch out for practically any attack, and Tyranitar / Metagross / Scizor have some trouble with repeated Surfs. That said, Pursuit is often still an incredibly effective means to dispose of Starmie.
Latias has a huge Special Defense stat, is only weak to Starmie's Ice Beam, and frequently uses Calm Mind. If it holds Leftovers, Latias will never be 2HKOed by Starmie's Ice Beam unless Starmie is holding Choice Specs or Life Orb, which is fairly uncommon. Meanwhile, Latias can set up with Calm Mind or easily 2HKO even defensive Starmie with Thunderbolt. Additionally, Latias frequently does not mind being Tricked Choice Specs or Choice Scarf.
Spiritomb, the Rotom formes, and Dusknoir, shut down the Rapid Spin set completely with their STAB super effective attacks and ability to block Rapid Spin. Spiritomb in particular is a problem as Sucker Punch and Pursuit put Starmie in a checkmate position.
Substitute / Calm Minders such as Thunderbolt Jirachi and Raikou can set up on Starmie with no problems, excluding the Choice Specs set.

I recommend one of those counters, perhaps instead of Roserade. Roserade seems more ad hoc to your mostly bulky team (Gengar I won't argue with, though) than useful. Yeah, Sleep, Leech Seed, and Spikes work well, but one of those could do well.

 

[djtoxic]

Thanks for the fast responses!

Changed Gyarados' Bounce for stone Edge.

I was thinking about what you said about roserade, and Rotom-C will perfectly replace her, however, until NB updates, I was thinking of froslass as a solution, at max speed ev she can outspeed rapid spin starmie and finish him with a thunder/thunderbolt. She can also set up spikes, so that would be another thing covered.
The moveset would be:
Spikes
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Confuse Ray (this+snow cloak against a hail team = a hell of a combo)

and, I would change my gengar's thunderbolt to Energy Ball (grass move) in order to replace roserade's grass knot. What do you think?

 

[Maxim]

Well, just so you know, Spikes plus Sleep Powder on Roserade is illegal.

Anyway, on to your team:

Salamence-This seems like an interesting set, but you would probably be better served by replacing him with a LeadNite.
Dragonite @ Life Orb
EVs:252 Atk/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 4 Spd
Moves:
Draco Meteor
Extremespeed
Fire Blast
Earthquake
It's basically the same thing as your Mence, only slower and has access to a priority move, feel free to put some EVs from the attacks to speed if you need to.

Heatran-Seems fine to me, you may consider Hidden Power Ice to help you deal with dragons better. However, it seems you rely on him a bit too much to take attacks.

Gyarados-Again, seems good.

Gliscor-It would probably be a good idea to give him Stone Edge, because otherwise Zapdos can be a real hinderance to this team [Particually ones that stall with Toxic].

Roserade-Personally, I do not see the need to have a spiker in your team, because by the time you set up spikes, your opponent will probably be into his setup sweepers. I suggest a Jirachi to give some wish support, which a somewhat bulky team like this would love to have. You can choose any set with wish that you want, but here's the one I would suggest:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
240 HP / 160 Def / 76 SpD / 32 Spe
~ Wish
~ U-turn
~ Body Slam
~ Iron Head
[I copied part of the analysis]
If you feel that you need a spiker, then Frosslass could be used over Roserade or even Gengar.
Of course, once NB updates, Rotom-C will work.

Gengar-Looks good

I hope this helps

 

[AlphaBravo]

You should swap Salamence for Anti-Lead Dragonite.

To copy the Anal.

Dragonite @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk/252 SpA/4 Spe
Quiet nature (+SAtk, -Spe)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Extremespeed

 

[MCRandom]

I think that your team could benefit a LOT from a standard suicide Aero Lead, Because virtually 100% of the time it stops SR, which can be a MAJOR hindrance to Gyarados' Success. It has Earthquake for the KO on most steels, and Stone Edge deals with dragons. Try this.

Aerodactyl@Focus Sash
Jolly | Pressure
4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Moves:
-Taunt
-Stealth Rock
-Stone Edge
-Earthquake

This set quickly disposes of steels not name Bronzong, Scarmory or Scizor, and 100% of the time stops the rocks if you play it right, and can get SR up and come out on top against the majority of OU leads, while keeping the offensive Nature of your team.

 

[Zuki]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Sleep Powder + Spikes on Roserade is an illegal combination, hence why it doesn't say Sleep Powder on the spikes analysis.

 

[apologies]

yep its illegal
mence isn't a very good lead, id reccomend switching him and roserade and giving roserade a moveset of sleep powder/toxic spikes/leaf storm/ hidden power ground or fire.

 

[Chillarmy]

I honestly don't see the point in having an anti-lead on this team at all; All of your Pokemon are immune to Toxic Spikes, three of your Pokemon aren't hit by Spikes and only one Pokemon is going to care if SR on the field. Rather much, you should worry about getting Stealth Rock up earlier in the game, as Gyarados and Heatran can cause quite a few switches and the damage can rack up pretty quickly. I recommend switching Gliscor to your lead with the set:

Gliscor @Leftovers | Impish Nature
EVs: 252 HP/36 Def/216 Spe | Ability: Sand Veil
Earthquake | Stealth Rock | Taunt | U-turn / Roost

With access to Taunt, Gliscor can prevent Stealth Rock from a myriad of leads and it can still serve as a Lucario check. You can also use U-turn if Azelf leads give you trouble.

Spikes + Sleep Powder is illgal on Roserade. You can only use Stun Spore + Spikes or Sleep Powder + Toxic Spikes. I don't see any Pokemon on this team that benefits from Toxic Spikes or Paralysis support, so I recommend replacing Roserade with:

Latias @Life Orb | Timid Nature
EVs: 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spe | Ability: Levitate
Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse | Surf | Thunderbolt | Recover

Latias gives your team a much better option against Zapdos, as SubRoost variants can turn into a problem once Heatran runs out of PP for Fire Blast (which is very likely due to Pressure, Roost and Fire Blast's accuracy). Latias also benefits from Scizor being out of play or at 50%, something that Gyarados can do without much trouble. If you use Dragon Pulse instead of Draco Meteor, then consider using Latias over Gengar as a late-game sweeper as both can have excellent coverage and can hit pretty hard.

Replacing Salamence gives you an extra slot, so you can cover your remaining threats with:

Jirachi @Choice Scarf | Jolly Nature
EVs: 80 HP/252 Atk/176 Spe | Ability: Serene Grace
Iron Head | Thunderpunch | Ice Punch | Trick / U-turn

Choice Scarf Jirachi can check DDTar, Calm Mind Latias, DDMence and offensive DDGyara with the first three slots. Trick can cripple Suicune, Blissey and Kingdra if they decide to switch in, but U-turn can help scout the opposing team for Magnezone.

Hope this helps and good luck with your team!

Oh and on a smaller note: The only Psychic type that you should worry about is Latias. If you can't find a solution to it, use something with Pursuit. Pursuit traps Latias and gets it out of play quickly before it gets the chance to punch holes in your team.

 

[djtoxic]

Again, thanks for the suggestions

I definetely won't replace salamence for aerodactyl, I've tried him and azelf (best suicide leads, I think) and they both suck. Explosion is easily predicted, so they either switch to a ghost type or something bulky like bronzong or skarmory while setting up stealth rock and/or spikes. Anyway, it's not a BIG problem, most of my team is bulky and they hit hard and fast :P
A leadnite sounds good, but ONLY with speed MAXED, +Spd nature and all..., then the only threat Mence outspeed and dragonite can't are Lucario, Kingdra, Suicune, Gyarados and of course, Salamence (assuming they're maxed speed and have dragon/ice moves on em). Anyway, that's a risky move, does it REALLY worths the risk?

About rosie... well, the illegal combo won't be a problem, I'll replace her :P.
I thought about the Jirachi wishpasser, and made a little change:

Jirachi @ Leftovers
240 HP / 160 Def / 76 SpD / 32 Spe
~ Wish
~ U-turn
~ Energy Ball
~ Iron Head

This works if gengar failed to kill starmie (normal starmie rapid spinner is 2 Spd faster than maxed Spd gengar -.-'), and replaces roserade's grass knot.

And gengar, well, if rotom forms get implemented, I'll change him to rotom-c and then replace jirachi's energy ball for psychic.

EDIT: Oxymentus, thanks for your suggestion, but that changes the dynamic of my team... a lot. My Nº1 rule is having both a fire move and an earth move on the lead.

 

[Chillarmy]

I thought about the Jirachi wishpasser, and made a little change:

Jirachi @ Leftovers
240 HP / 160 Def / 76 SpD / 32 Spe
~ Wish
~ U-turn
~ Energy Ball
~ Iron Head

Your team doesn't really benefit from Wish support =/. Gyarados is bulky, but it shouldn't be taking the brunt of every attack that comes its way. Heatran has 10 resistances and 2 immunities alongside 91/106/106 defenses, it won't need Wish support unless you leave it in on something that hits it for SE damage (also, Heatran has Explosion). Gengar is way too frail to even switch in after Wish.

And gengar, well, if rotom forms get implemented, I'll change him to rotom-c

Don't. Please, don't do that. Gengar is the only thing on your team with speed, coverage and raw power that won't be stuck in on a single move.

 

[djtoxic]

Well, wish can be useful, but seeing it that way you may be right. What do you suggest as a replacement?

And... gengar was there exclusively for rapid spinners, but now that roserade is out, I think he can still function well as an special sweeper :D

 

[Chillarmy]

Use Choice Scarf Jirachi. It can keep most of the Pokemon that can knock your team around in check and it can help with stall if you use Trick.

 

[djtoxic]

Thanks for the recomendation, I'll try it out.

EDIT: NetBattle fully supports Platinum now, Rotom forms are available, so feel free to suggest them :D

EDIT2: Well... after lots of testing this team stands no chance against a defensive team with skarmbliss or even just skarmory..., I was thinking of a replacement for gliscor... Because gengar won't last forever not to mention if focus blast fails there you go a free scout and people ALWAYS switch when they see heatran, and... I was thinking... Is it time for a rotom form? :D I came up with this:

Rotom-H@Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EV's: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest (+SpA -Atk)
~ Thunderbolt
~ Overheat
~ Hidden Power Fighting
~ Trick

and then change Jirachi's Choice Scarf for Life Orb, and Trick for TWave.

Is this any good?

EDIT3: I GOT IT!. After a lot of theorymon (?) I've decided to do this:

Replace Gliscor with Rotom-C:
Rotom-C@Leftovers
Modest
252 HP / 72 Def / 96 SpA / 88 Spe

Thunderbolt
Shadowbolt
Will-o-Wisp
Leaf Storm

And gay jirachi (no, I don't like him, such a hax baby) is replaced by:
Lucario@Choice Band
Jolly
EV's: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
~ Crunch
~ Close Combat
~ ExtremeSpeed
~ Ice Punch
Nice resistances, and RAPES almost everything.

 

[djtoxic]

Well so far the new team is doing great, but I still want suggestions and opinions, anyone? :D

 

[mrguy888]

Change naive to modest on Heatran. Naive is to keep the power of explosion which you don't have so the sdef is going to waste.

 

[djtoxic]

Er. naive raises Speed, not Atk... Timid is what you might want to suggest (-Atk, +Spd). Anyway, I was planning to do some changes, maybe dropping Gengar for actual lead Dragonite, and using a Stealth Rock leader. I really never get to use stealth rock on 90% of the matches because of Choice Scarf :P.

EDIT: I thought of Jirachi but discarded him because of:
- Being a haxor baby
- No good antileading without rapid spinner
- Doesn't have the OHKOers my nite has (and that's what I basically want, Earth&Fire OHKOers plus stealth rock support, yeah, I know, Heatran suits that role, but it may be too god damn much risky)

 

[Cooltrainer]

No. No. No. What does Lead Dragonite gain by having 252speed? Nothing. If you want, put 4 speed EVs on it so that you outpace other Dragonite leads, and go with this set:

Dragonite @ Life Orb ~ Quiet
252Special Attack, 248 Attack, 4 Speed
:Fire Blast: - Hits Steels, Metagross, Scizor, Skarm, Bronzong
:Draco Meteor: - Hits everything hard that FireBlast doesnt. Main STAB.
:Superpower: - Hits Tyranitar, Heatran
:Extreme Speed: - Hits leads that are left at their sash, Azelf, Aero.

This is going to give a LOT of power to your lead. The ONLY downside is being slower than Heatran, who will SR first turn as you Superpower. You don't outspeed anything else that is significant. Draco Meteor does about 90%+ to standard Gliscor, and then you can Extreme Speed for the KO before they Roost.

If you're going to keep Gengar AND Rotom, I suggest you make Lucario a Swords Dance set.
Why? Because they are both pursuit/crunch bait, and Lucario resists both of them x4.
Standard Adamant, except instead of running Crunch, run bulletpunch. This will help to deal with Scarf Tyranitar, who would otherwise cause your team some difficulty with Sandstorm + Stab moves. You don't need Crunch/Ice Punch, because most Gliscor outspeed you anyway, and if you can't ko other Rotoms with a Gengar AND a Rotom of your own, you ain't playing right ;)

Bulletpunch also helps you take down other Gengars after a Swords Dance, since Stab + Life Orb.

The set should be Close Combat, Swords Dance, Extreme Speed, Bulletpunch.

Finally, Scarf Heatran is good, and the SR Bluff is nice, but more often then not it will screw you over. If someone predicts an Earth Power and goes into say, Zapdos, then they can start toxic stalling your entire team if you lock yourself into SR/EarthPower. I suggest a Shuca Berry, with a Timid Nature and the exact same moveset. Send it out on something that has to switch, (Scizor?), use SR, then decide from there while your biggest weakness is still covered decently. =D goodluck

 

[DarkendFearz]

Sorry for not doing a full rate but having 252 speed on dragonite is useless.
I would suggest running 252 atk and 252 sp.atk yet take 4 ev's from one of them and add to speed so you have 8speed to outpace most d-nights that carry 4 speed.
Also on this note of the Dragonite use Superpower over Earthquake. Its come in extremely helpful when taking down other leads. Like Heatran and T-Tar

Now for your Lucario please run a swords dance set because it has nice synergy with Dragonite and you can find yourself in a position to get a +2 Lucario easily.

On heatran running Fire Blast is a viable option.

Also try changing rotom-c EV's: 252 HP / 72 Def / 92 SpA / 92 Spe
Nature: Bold (+Def -Atk)
That way you can outspeed the standard rotom-h (Defensive Set) and carry a bit more bulk.

Other then that decent team. Just not in this metagame with the ScarfTar.