Trick Rock

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Okay Jayque, thanks for posting that. However, bear with me while I ask about a couple hypothetical situations:
1. How exactly do you handle Fake Out? I can prevent you from getting up TR the first turn, which really hurts as that leaves either Solrock or Hippowdon (or, if Surf or Water Spout is used, both) wide open for an attack. Assuming Solrock is hit, your passho berry means very little as I can just finish you the next turn. Even if you protect, many of the popular water moves are multi-target and Hippowdon will die, and with Solrock, you just delay death by a turn.

2. What if I pack two pokemon with super effective moves? Let's say I ran Kyogre+Ludicolo. How would you stop a double surf? Grass Knot is also a common move and hits your entire team very hard, especially considering most of your pokemon are heavy.

Being new, I am not sure the proper etiquette to posting – but I figured there was no point in continuing the discussion in the Dallas VGC thread and I would move this to it’s own discussion – hope this is okay.

Someone responded back to you regarding fake out – and yes double protect was one option I utilized when seeing someone I knew carried a fake out. Option 2 was to go ahead and utilize EQ with Trick Room. If they flinched the TR they took the EQ, if they flinched the Hippo TR got off. The utilized strategy depended entirely on what I saw. Standard opener (if I saw no flinching) was to protect the Hippo while going for TR.

Someone mentioned the fact that they believed the element of surprise was the only reason I was successful. I agree 100%. You can plan for my team in advance and wipe it – for the most part… most weren’t prepared. Lets be honest though – you can plan for any team in advance – know there core strategy – and come up with exactly what it would take to beat it (in fact I did just that). I was counting on predictable play – known pokemon showing up – and people not be certain on Solrock/Hippos speed and other factors (I knew they would prep for Tyranitar and know him in and out, but Hippo and Solrock – doubtful).

This brings me to your second question – Ludicolo and Kyogre. This was a matchup that I dreaded. This was a matchup that I knew had the potential to hurt. This was also one I felt I could win mentally. Oh – and I am not certain when, but I faced this matchup somewhere between round 1 and 3. To take it back a step – when I first came up with this concept, I played my best friend and partner in brainstorming. Normally we bounce ideas off each other, but this time I told him I couldn’t tell him details, because if he knew the team it wouldn’t work. I beat him and the team played as designed – though at the time I utilized Armaldo for some strategic value I won’t disclose at this time (it was later I added the second explosion). Once he knew it – we tweaked the team together. He knew what I was going to do and I had to come up with ways to disrupt his foresight. At the time, I utilized dig as a second protect for the first explosion, and later realized that with lowering Regirocks speed I could get a second explosion off before the dig went off - something I figured NOBODY would see coming. I battled 20 different teams and strategies in a gauntlet of best of 5 matches. The team was 80% successful and I learned a lot on what would and would not work for the team. I still had concerns and fears, and only decided to roll with the team the morning of the tournament.

Back to Ludicolo/Ogre. I was counting, again, on surprise and the predicable nature of an opponent who is not certain what I am doing. I knew Ludicolo would fake out, and most likely go for the Solrock. Though I had a 50/50 chance they would make a poor decision here which would work to my favor (faking out the Hippo). Yes – he could have used a variety of moves that would have destroyed one or both pokes … but fake out opening is hard coded in many brains and with Ludi’s 70 base speed – most weren’t certain on priority … Hippo is slow, but how slow? I won the weather battle – but kyogre is base 90 speed – of course I won weather. Then Solrock – does it have more than 70 base speed? What if it blows up before the water/grass move goes off? I could kill him with spout, but crap he could be sashed, better fake out to be safe – then spout will kill him for certain as the sash is broken. This is the logic I was counting on.

Now, the spouting ogre takes a STAB EQ from Hippo cutting life in half. Crap – the Solrock is alive and in yellow. The Hippo is toast with 1 HP. Whatever will they do. I look in bad shape, and I expect there are many ways to look at the next part as luck, but I was fairly confident in the odds. A surf and spout kills me, but I figure the surf won’t happen for fear of the unknown. If they cripple their Ogre with surf, he’s toast and he’s the strength of team – already injured and fading in a sand storm (which pinged him moments ago to take him further down the route to useless spout). A second spout kills me – but they don’t know that … they know that I lived through the first and they are weaker now and the SS is still in effect. So I predict switch out of Ogre for safety. I also predict that the switch means they can’t protect against a surf – they have to use Grass Knot … they have to be cautious – do they go for the Quaker or the unknown Solrock. Oh yeah – and they are still not certain on move priority. I expect a switch out, with the assumption they can deal with the Solrock next round – here’s where it gets wide in the road and hard to discuss. I expect any Abomasnow in the back will come in for the switch of weather. I expect that most people don’t know Solrock’s weight – and move priority now they second guess Grass Knot – what if I live and explode… Aboma will switch the weather to hail – okay so I predict in their uncertainty – they utilize Blizzard instead of Grass Knot. Now Grass Knot will kill my Solrock and Hippo will die to the Hail – so to be safe, time to bring out my Tyranitar. I make the switch, giving me back the weather benefit and saving my hippo for later. Solrock – takes Blizzard (as predicted) – and gets of TR. Next round – protect and BOOM! And I once again have the turn order benefit from TR, another exploder and my just hanging on Hippo. With two down, and a Sand Stream in the back – I win the weather battle – again.

Now there are other scenarios – what if they grass knotted. And TR doesn’t get off. My SDF was high enough in SS to live through a variety of scenarios. I can’t explain them all. What I can say is that I hit some horrible matchups for my team - heavy grass, facing ghosts, etc. Making a last second decision to explode a guy for the 1 for 1 takedown knowing his Spiritomb would survive was difficult – but it was unpredictable and kept him off balance.

Yes – I was lucky. I could have been dismantled. People could have made different choices. Does that mean I ran skill free and I am “ridiculous” and “not very good”. The team was a one shot wonder. Laying it out means that most would likely be prepared and know how to handle it in the future. Which is why I made the painful decision to explain in more detail some of the logic. Regarding the team being easily beaten by a skilled trainer with the right team being able to wipe me – absolutely agree – but then again, you show me a team that when you are told the strategy employed in advance cannot be dismantled by the right set of four being matched and skillfully piloted against. I don’t believe it exists. What did exist, was a fresh concept which most failed to see until too late.
 
That's pretty good stuff. With tournaments being only single elimination, surprise will pretty much seal the deal for you.
 
First of all, I fixed the font back to the standard. It's easiest to read that way.

Someone responded back to you regarding fake out – and yes double protect was one option I utilized when seeing someone I knew carried a fake out. Option 2 was to go ahead and utilize EQ with Trick Room. If they flinched the TR they took the EQ
Having never been a user of Hippowdon myself, I don't know exactly what EV spread you're running. I'll assume you want some bulk but since you are running EQ, I know you probably are running some attack EV's. Just how many, I'm not sure, especially considering you need some bulk in VGC. I'll use the arbitrary and uninformed number of 128 attack EV's for demonstration purposes. This would make your EV spread 252 HP/128 attack/130 spdef as used in my sample calculations. I don't think an Earthquake is very fatal at all to the ScarfOgre, or any Ogre for that matter, as long as they're using Surf, something that many players opt to do because of WS's shaky base power. At any rate, example Hippowdon (Adamant) vs. no defensive EV Modest Kyogre does 36% - 42.9%, which isn't really enough for me to even consider faking out Hippowdon. I mean, if I can take a Groudon EQ, why should I fear Hippowdon? In turn, Surf/Muddy Water does 76.3% - 90.2% to Hippowdon and uses up Solrock's Passho berry, leaving him open to a strong attack on the next turn.

if they flinched the Hippo TR got off.
I would never do this and I don't think any skilled player would either.

The utilized strategy depended entirely on what I saw. Standard opener (if I saw no flinching) was to protect the Hippo while going for TR.
Against a pure goodstuffs team lacking Kyogre, I'll buy this. However, my main problem is how thoroughly your team is beaten by rain teams. If I just use two multi-target moves, I just won the match on the first turn. Your protect strategy does not solve this problem.

and people not be certain on Solrock/Hippos speed and other factors
Hippo's speed is in the 40's as I know from OU play, and I would have guessed that Solrock was in the 60's (it was actually 70). However, I wouldn't even worry about speed because if I saw both of them together, I know it's going to be Trick Room. Therefore, this point is rather moot.

This brings me to your second question – Ludicolo and Kyogre. This was a matchup that I dreaded. This was a matchup that I knew had the potential to hurt. This was also one I felt I could win mentally. Oh – and I am not certain when, but I faced this matchup somewhere between round 1 and 3. To take it back a step – when I first came up with this concept, I played my best friend and partner in brainstorming. Normally we bounce ideas off each other, but this time I told him I couldn’t tell him details, because if he knew the team it wouldn’t work. I beat him and the team played as designed – though at the time I utilized Armaldo for some strategic value I won’t disclose at this time (it was later I added the second explosion). Once he knew it – we tweaked the team together. He knew what I was going to do and I had to come up with ways to disrupt his foresight. At the time, I utilized dig as a second protect for the first explosion, and later realized that with lowering Regirocks speed I could get a second explosion off before the dig went off - something I figured NOBODY would see coming. I battled 20 different teams and strategies in a gauntlet of best of 5 matches. The team was 80% successful and I learned a lot on what would and would not work for the team. I still had concerns and fears, and only decided to roll with the team the morning of the tournament.
So how does this beat Ludi/Ogre again? You just told me how you like to go boom. It doesn't tell me how I don't kill you on Turn 1 prior to Trick Room going up.

Back to Ludicolo/Ogre. I was counting, again, on surprise and the predicable nature of an opponent who is not certain what I am doing. I knew Ludicolo would fake out, and most likely go for the Solrock. Though I had a 50/50 chance they would make a poor decision here which would work to my favor (faking out the Hippo).
50-50 is only if the opponent really sucks. Anyone here or on SkarmBliss, or any competitive website, would have made the proper move and attempted to Fake Out Solrock.
Yes – he could have used a variety of moves that would have destroyed one or both pokes … but fake out opening is hard coded in many brains and with Ludi’s 70 base speed – most weren’t certain on priority … Hippo is slow, but how slow?
Very very slow. Especially because I can see you're running some form of Trick Room. Also, Ludicolo will generally have some speed investment if coupled with Kyogre.
I won the weather battle I don't need the rain to deal tons of damage – but kyogre is base 90 speed – of course I won weather. Then Solrock – does it have more than 70 base speed? What if it blows up before the water/grass move goes off?
It won't because you are running some sort of Trick Room

I could kill him with spout also consider surf, but crap he could be sashed, better fake out to be safe – then spout will kill him for certain as the sash is broken. This is the logic I was counting on.
Okay, so now it's turn 2, you don't have Trick Room, and you don't have a Passho berry, and Hippowdon still can't kill me. How am I behind again?

Now, the spouting ogre takes a STAB EQ from Hippo cutting life in half.
Not even

Crap – the Solrock is alive and in yellow
and flinched and now without a Passho berry .

The Hippo is toast with 1 HP actually with a bit more than that, but yes, toast.

Whatever will they do. I look in bad shape, and I expect there are many ways to look at the next part as luck, but I was fairly confident in the odds. A surf and spout kills me, but I figure the surf won’t happen for fear of the unknown.
Just what am I supposed to be fearing? You're obviously running some form of TR and you don't have TR up now.

if they cripple their Ogre with surf surf cripples Ogre? Maybe I should use surf on opposing Ogre's now, he’s toast and he’s the strength of team – already injured and fading in a sand storm (which pinged him moments ago to take him further down the route to useless spout again consider surf).

So I predict switch out of Ogre for safety.
I'll buy this if I'm trying to get out of Water Spout. If I'm running Surf or Muddy Water, I'll stay in.

I also predict that the switch means they can’t protect against a surf – they have to use Grass Knot … they have to be cautious – do they go for the Quaker or the unknown Solrock. Oh yeah – and they are still not certain on move priority.
I am certain on move priority, trust me. Also, Muddy Water only targets the opponent, and it's not like a Surf is going to hurt my own teammates that much. Ludi/Palkia 4x resist it and Kyogre has massive Sp. Def.

I expect a switch out, with the assumption they can deal with the Solrock next round
Who thinks this in their right mind? Letting TR go up that easily? Really?

– here’s where it gets wide in the road and hard to discuss. I expect any Abomasnow in the back will come in for the switch of weather. I expect that most people don’t know Solrock’s weight – and move priority now they second guess Grass Knot – what if I live and explode… Aboma will switch the weather to hail – okay so I predict in their uncertainty – they utilize Blizzard instead of Grass Knot. Now Grass Knot will kill my Solrock and Hippo will die to the Hail – so to be safe, time to bring out my Tyranitar. I make the switch, giving me back the weather benefit and saving my hippo for later. Solrock – takes Blizzard (as predicted) – and gets of TR. Next round – protect and BOOM! And I once again have the turn order benefit from TR, another exploder and my just hanging on Hippo. With two down, and a Sand Stream in the back – I win the weather battle – again.
Barring the uncertainty of speed, I will buy this argument up here, but keep in mind that other players might be just as smart with weather control and you might lose this.

Now there are other scenarios – what if they grass knotted. And TR doesn’t get off. My SDF was high enough in SS to live through a variety of scenarios.
Actually, it's not that high. Considering Solrock, like many Rock pokemon, has poor special defense, even a 1.5x boost won't help much, especially if I double attack you.

Yes – I was lucky. I could have been dismantled.
Actually, statistically, you probably should have been dismantled. People could have made different choices. Does that mean I ran skill free and I am “ridiculous” and “not very good”. The team was a one shot wonder. Laying it out means that most would likely be prepared and know how to handle it in the future. Which is why I made the painful decision to explain in more detail some of the logic. Regarding the team being easily beaten by a skilled trainer with the right team being able to wipe me – absolutely agree – but then again, you show me a team that when you are told the strategy employed in advance cannot be dismantled by the right set of four being matched and skillfully piloted against. I don’t believe it exists. What did exist, was a fresh concept which most failed to see until too late.

Which is why we feel that you got lucky with your matchups. If you ran into the multitude of competent players that there are between Smogon and Skarmbliss, you would have lost. This doesn't even consider anyone who is running a solid rain team that doesn't go to either site.
Comments in bold.
 
bearsfan just drop it, it is kinda of getting annoying now. He made top 8 for a reason, something Alaka, OmegaDonut, and Tyler did not even accomplish this year. Just stop raining on his parade, congrats Jayque, have fun in Nats! Looking forward to hearing about the team you use there.
 
Annoying as you may find it, he is sidestepping the questions that me and several others are asking. Yes, he made top 8, and yes, I have congratulated him on that, albeit only briefly. If I happen to be raining on his parade, it's because I'm asking him some serious questions that he only answers with general and vague statements or flawed logic.
 
I am not about going to get into a big argument with you, but I understand your concerns because his team at a glance does not look like it could last a heart beat in the 2010 metagame. The thing is apparently he knows something we do not about that team and it was at a regional so there is obviously a lack of skill/knowledge with most players competing. All that aside he did make it to top 8, and I am not a mod or anything but if you really want to point out the obvious flaws in his team couldn't you just talk to him via pms?
 

JRank

Jonny
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Not to be mean, but you were counting on EVERY Ogre to have water spout. If you would have faced me you might've lost because I carried Surf. (Thanks drcossack)
 

Ninahaza

You'll always be a part of me
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
hey Jayque i havent had a chance to congratulate you, so congratz, i love your team, mainly because from a glance it looks like it wouldnt last for a second in the 2010 VGC metagame, but thats what makes me believe more that you could have taken the whole competition because that reaction to your team alone can be someone's downfall.
 

locopoke

Banned deucer.
I still don't understand how you can win if Kyogre and Ludicolo both use Water Spout and Surf respectively on turn 1. Also you kind of just copied your replies from the other thread and put them in one big thread. Your team might not have been as terrible as everyone thought it was but it's still not very practical for this metagame.
 
You know, you guys are making a fairly basic, fatal flaw when you talk about this team's weakness...now, when you say "rain dance" teams, what do you exactly mean? Unlike last year's vgc, there are very few "pure" rain dance teams going about, as in the strategy is purely based around rain. If you'll remember correctly, many of these so-called rain teams consist of nothing more than kyogre with a ludi, palkia, or both in some cases. More often than not, Aboma is one of the 2 Pokemon chosen to hide as the 3rd choice, with random uber whatever as the 4th one. So realistically, your odds of getting continually plummeled by rain in fact is usually limited to whatever Kyogre and its primary buddy can do. I'd even go as far to say that most teams that use Kyogre fall more into a goodstuffs model, especially if Aboma is in tow for a second weather counter.

Also, what's up with the bashing of not playing "quality opponents?" Not one single person in the vgc so far can claim they faced "quality opponents" in every round of these regionals no matter what, there are so many people who don't know what they're doing, it basically means an easy win. It won't be until Nats (where you have the top 16 of each regional and from the lcq), maybe even worlds (where you then throw in Japanese players and their often as-odd to us strategies) that you can say you faced a good opponent every round who, by most of your guys' definition, knows what they're doing.

Anyways that's my thought on that issue. Grats for using such a unique team to reach up so high, it would be nice if more people could appreciate such a great concept instead of bashing it for the percieved weaknesses; after all, it's not like any team could possibly cover every expected weakness, and you sure proved the conventional way of thought wrong.
 
Annoying as you may find it, he is sidestepping the questions that me and several others are asking. Yes, he made top 8, and yes, I have congratulated him on that, albeit only briefly. If I happen to be raining on his parade, it's because I'm asking him some serious questions that he only answers with general and vague statements or flawed logic.
lol it's Pokemon, not philosophy. We don't need to cut each others heads off getting answers. He got top 8, didn't he? You could always just ask him for his EV spreads or something. Unless he doesn't want to give them, in which case you'll need to figure things out for yourself through trial and error in research.
 
I have to agree with a lot of people. Its by no means a top team by any standard, but it works in a single elimination environment because it is a gimmick that consistently surprises and a well developed surprise at that. It probably would fail in a best of three setting because the strategy seems so fragile and easy to dismantle, as he stated, if they were prepared for it. But, he never had to face another person again. It works because people auto-piloted against it and never got a second chance to fix their mistake.
 
@Xerograde, Sir_Lu, Xplay, Ninahaza, Darkwatch – Thank you.

@Locopoke – You are right, I would have likely lost to an opening Surf/Waterspout combo … not a very common lead. I guess I was just a lucky SOB afterall. I predicted heavy top/ogre leads. I predicted occasional variants. As I stated, I did hit a ludi/ogre lead. They didn’t surf/waterspout – it was a possibility, but it didn’t happen. My team had holes in the armor, I have not once stated otherwise. I wanted to run free of the mainstream and prove strategy can overcome base stats. I thought I did, but for some – apparently not. Also, not sure why you say my post was just a cut/paste of previous info. I answered in detail the question from bearsfan, I am not certain how a brand new detailed account of strategy and my mind’s voice is just cut/paste of previous info. Sorry to have appeared redundant - it wasn't my intention.

@JRank – I don’t think your comment is mean. I wasn’t counting on EVERY ogre carrying spout – just most. I did hit Muddy Water Ogre – kind of caught me off guard at first, but I adapted. Also I hit Ogre and/or Palkia in all but like two battles. I was counting on the predictability of the meta – I was counting on the mindset that seems prevalent here.

@bearsfan – I can’t, for the life of me, see where I am sidestepping your questions. I answered you directly regarding your two questions on how I dealt with fakeout and how I dealt with the one ludicolo/ogre lead I saw. I made top 8 – you’re logic says I should have lost round 1 … who has the flawed logic? Again, I can expect your answer is me and that even though I played the odds and won, the odds were the only thing that kept me from losing. I'm getting a headache.

You make assumptions on my hippo and your nature and EV spread are both off the mark. You want me to lay it all out there – and I have for the most part, but whatever information I give will only be utilized to affirm your hind-sighted “I can beat that” agenda. The arrogance of your statements is almost laughable. I have openly stated I could have lost any round. I blew up half my own team most of the time. I was running pedal to the metal and had a strategy that went all-in. It was aggressive and risky - by design and not accidental "I didn't think of that" or any serendipitous luck of the draw. Yeah I could have been blasted by water/grass moves. Then again … how many people carry EQ in these tournaments … I still see Dialga. How many people carry Dragon moves – I still see Palkia … How many people are carrying Blizzard in an Aboma packed meta – yet some people had the nerve to run with flyers.

Oh and sorry for the font – I prefer to type in Word and import. If I knew your “Standard” font I would oblige your request to change font after posting.
 
I would agree with that. If he had run into a ludi/ogre combo I'm going to make my prediction...

Fake Out+Waterspout/Blizzard will happen 99.9% of the time.
Not Surf.
 
Congratulations on qualifying with a semi-mono rock anti-metagame team. It was by far the most impressive team I have ever seen. Don't listen to people who are judging you, they are just jealous that you are a better trainer.
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
Great job and Great read Jayque. They made fun of my nats team that qualified for worlds last year too, saying I just got lucky. Don't worry about it. You made tops and nobody can take that away from you. Just ignore them.
 

Da Letter El

Officially internet famous
is a Community Leader Alumnus


Congrats on the top 8 dude, and I'm sure your creativity will serve you well at indy should you go (and it sounds like you will from what I've read). I certainly see some legitimacy in criticism of this team, but people really underestimate how powerful the element of surprise can be, especially in a high-pressure environment. Once again, congratulations on your success, especially without the usage of any ubers and good luck at nats.
 
I just battled that team ,but won't divulge the deets due to the fact that I still have to compete. Even though I did win, I can see how he got that far packin' that same team. Good Job all around.
 
Well done. Love the team. I heard you made top 8 but where did you end up overall?

Is there a video of any of your battles around?
 
It's clear that this discussion is devolving into a flame war, so perhaps we should call it a day?

Congratulations, and I'll go my separate way.
 
Great job, love the team. That's exactly the kind of out-of-the-box thinking that wins these matches. I think my team could have beaten you if we matched up but if definitely would be close either way.
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
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Jayque, you can copy your text into Notepad to strip it off the Word formatting and then repaste it into Smogon. Click "Edit" on your post to do so.

Anyway, by calling the people replying to you arrogant, you are coming off as arrogant yourself. The logic you're following under your battle with the hypothetical Ludicolo + Kyogre user is not good. You're assuming they're stupid. Hippowdon - at least when I last played Pokemon - is an incredibly common Pokemon in the OU metagame which most people going to this has played. The only attacks I know that Solrock learns are Trick Room, Explosion, Light Screen, and Reflect. I honestly don't know what else it does. Neither of your Pokemon were "unique" in that they were doing something an intelligent player shouldn't have recognized. Aside from Dig, your strat seems like something anyone would see a mile away. Fake Out shouldn't have been 50/50 on your Solrock. It should have been assumed as most people will Fake Out the TR user. Water Spout would come out and you're crippled. You then assume they'd switch out which I also see as foolhardy. I don't know why that would happen. You don't have TR out and they have two faster Pokemon to bring you down.

Like I said in the other topic: Congratulations on making Top 8. Good luck in Nationals. Your team served you well, but please don't push it as some sort of "anti-metagame" or "metagame-disruptor" team because it isn't. However, I do also want to congratulate you for thinking of a strategy and using Pokemon that can carry out the strategy.
 
You have a good point Firestorm. Though I need to say, I never see Dig outside of 10 year olds using it when it comes to Pokemon. I would have whole-heartedly expected EQ/Rock Slide, as a matter of fact. Dig would have surprised me, but me using the team I plan to use, it could have worked against me. It isn't a metagame disrupter, at least nothing like Top/Ogre, also. I agree with that. It's a fair surprise though.

Then again I'm not a veteran of competitive Pokemon or anything. I don't know how much Dig is used at all really, again, outside of 10 year olds who think they're powerful because they are going underground. lol
 
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