Houndoom (Update)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/houndoom

status: draft posted 8/28. ok you can grammar check now (9/13)! done!

rewrote everything. this shit was outdated. this should replace the entire on-site analysis. if Anachronism’s SpD Early Bird set gets written, it should go after the Anti-Lead set and before the Choice Scarf set. if that set is written, the sentence in Optional Changes about it should be deleted (make sure not to delete the wrong one about Early Bird!).

[OVERVIEW]

<p>Houndoom is UU's most powerful Nasty Plot sweeper, and often the most deadly as well. Its great dual STAB and auspicious stat distribution allow Houndoom to cut through unprepared or weakened teams like a knife through butter. Although its function is one-dimensional, Houndoom's methods can vary greatly between sets, and this versatility is what makes Houndoom such a dangerous threat. Each of its sets has a different trick up its sleeve, and making assumptions about which set you're facing can often lead to your demise. Unfortunately, Houndoom's Stealth Rock weakness and subpar defensive stats mean it cannot take hits nearly as well as it gives them out.</p>

[SET]
name: Mixed Nasty Plot
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Dark Pulse
move 4: Sucker Punch
item: Life Orb
ability: Flash Fire
nature: Hasty
evs: 100 Atk / 184 SpA / 224 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This is Houndoom's bread-and-butter Nasty Plot set. Fire Blast and Dark Pulse are both used on this set to make the most of the excellent coverage afforded by Houndoom's dual STABs. Fire Blast is Houndoom's preferred sweeping move due to its high Base Power, while Dark Pulse hits the Fire-, Water-, and Rock-type Pokemon who resist Fire Blast for heavy damage. After a Nasty Plot, Moltres, Arcanine, and Rhyperior are OHKOed, and Milotic loses upwards of 70% HP.</p>

<p>It may be odd to see Sucker Punch, a physical attack, on a Nasty Plot set, but the move is actually an excellent tool for Houndoom, both in assisting its own sweep and in putting a stop to opposing sweepers. Sucker Punch always OHKOes 4 HP Dugtrio after Stealth Rock, which means without Substitute and good prediction it cannot stop Houndoom's sweep. Sucker Punch also prevents Choice Scarf Rotom, most Alakazam, and some Mismagius from revenge killing Houndoom. Finally, even when Houndoom is not attempting a sweep, Sucker Punch allows it to finish off faster, weakened foes.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Flash Fire is used instead of Early Bird to boost Houndoom's offensive potential; for example, if Houndoom switches into Weezing's or Arcanine's Will-O-Wisp, the subsequent +2 Fire Blast will be able to 2HKO Chansey. Since Houndoom is using both physical and special attacks, a Timid nature isn't optimal. Hasty is advisable instead of Naive because it makes more sense to lower Houndoom's already dismal Defense rather than to sacrifice its decent Special Defense. Also, Houndoom's resistances are usually seen in the form of special attacks (notably Shadow Ball), and higher Special Defense means it is easier to set up on weak special attackers, such as Weezing with Sludge Bomb.</p>

<p>The EVs may seem complicated at first glance, but fulfill specific purposes. 224 Speed EVs and a Hasty nature are used to outpace Timid Rotom along with all slower Pokemon, including Timid Moltres and Venusaur. 100 Attack EVs with a Life Orb are necessary to ensure Sucker Punch always OHKOes 4 HP Dugtrio after Stealth Rock damage. The remaining EVs are put into Special Attack to maximize Houndoom's offensive punch. If you want Houndoom to tie with opposing base 95 Speed Pokemon, such as Leafeon and Drapion, you can shift a few EVs into Speed; however, this isn't the recommended spread since Houndoom needs as many EVs as possible to spread between its attacking stats.</p>

<p>Houndoom is hard to counter perfectly because of its high damage output, but there are a few Pokemon who are good switch-ins. Milotic, particularly specially defensive variants, can take a boosted Dark Pulse at full health and KO Houndoom with Surf. Physically defensive Milotic should be wary of taking too much previous damage, though, as Dark Pulse deals 63.4% - 74.8%. Chansey can stall Houndoom out with Toxic and Wish / Protect as long as Houndoom doesn't get a Flash Fire boost. Note that if Houndoom starts using Nasty Plot on Protect, Chansey will probably have to switch out a turn or two before Toxic kills Houndoom (perhaps to a Pokemon who resists or is immune to Fire, or a sacrifice). Azumarill resists Houndoom's primary STAB, doesn't lose too much HP to an unboosted Dark Pulse, and can use its priority Aqua Jet to OHKO Houndoom before Houndoom can attack again. There are three Pokemon in UU that resist the combination of Fire- and Dark-type attacks: Houndoom, Blaziken, and Thick Fat Hariyama. Against other Houndoom, the Houndoom who has more boosts under its belt wins with Dark Pulse. Blaziken is frail and doesn't appreciate eating Fire Blast too often, but its Vacuum Wave makes quick work of Houndoom. Thick Fat Hariyama with a specially defensive spread is an excellent Houndoom counter. Its "weakness" is its low utility outside of this role, as other common Fire-types in UU either have strong physical attacks (Arcanine and Blaziken) or have a super effective STAB attack (Moltres). Faster Pokemon who can take a Sucker Punch, such as Tauros, Scyther, and Ambipom, are good revenge killers.</p>

<p>If you're not keen on using Sucker Punch on this set, there are some Hidden Powers that may interest you. Hidden Power Flying hits two of the three UU Pokemon who resist Houndoom's STAB combination (the last, other Houndoom, is not a big concern) super effectively, but has no utility outside of that. Hidden Power Grass is one-sixth more powerful than Dark Pulse against Water-types, but even so, cannot OHKO Milotic. Obviously, if you use Hidden Power in the last slot, Houndoom doesn't require any Attack EVs, so a simple 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe spread with a Timid nature works best. A Modest nature also becomes more viable with Hidden Power Grass, since Houndoom can then OHKO Bold Milotic with a bit of residual damage.</p>

[SET]
name: MixDoom
move 1: Pursuit
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Crunch / Thunder Fang
move 4: Fire Blast / Overheat
item: Life Orb
ability: Flash Fire
nature: Hasty
evs: 252 Atk / 32 SpA / 224 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Even though Houndoom's higher offensive stat is Special Attack, it would be a shame to waste its base 90 Attack stat, especially when it is backed up by STAB attacks like Pursuit and Sucker Punch. The main draw of this set is its ability to efficiently eliminate opposing Ghost-types, especially Rotom and Mismagius. While there are several viable UU Pokemon with STAB Pursuit, Houndoom is the only one immune to Will-O-Wisp, which greatly enhances its performance against defensive Ghost-types.</p>

<p>Pursuit is a given to take advantage of Houndoom's ghostbusting abilities. Sucker Punch is an excellent utility move for Houndoom, as with proper prediction it allows Houndoom to eliminate weakened sweepers and faster threats like Alakazam. Crunch is the preferred option in the third slot; while it may seem odd to use three physical Dark-type attacks on the same set, Pursuit and Sucker Punch are only situationally useful attacks, while Crunch provides reliable power. Thunder Fang is also an option in this slot if you're concerned about hitting Moltres and Milotic for more damage. It almost always OHKOes Moltres after Stealth Rock damage (Crunch doesn't on average) and means Milotic must think twice before switching in if it is moderately weakened. Finally, Houndoom uses a high-powered special Fire-type attack in the last slot to blast through Pokemon like Donphan, Tangrowth, Venusaur, and Registeel. Fire Blast deals more damage than Overheat over two turns, but Overheat is more effective against physically bulky targets neutral to Fire, such as Donphan, and against Pokemon who would force Houndoom out before it gets a second chance to attack.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The Speed EVs let Houndoom outpace Timid Rotom. Attack is maximized, and the remaining EVs are placed into Special Attack to power up Fire Blast. Houndoom needs a Speed-boosting nature that doesn't lower either of its offensive stats; Naive is out of the question as it makes Houndoom take more damage from Mismagius's and Rotom's Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt, so Hasty is chosen.</p>

<p>Mixed Houndoom is arguably the best way to eliminate Ghost-type Pokemon in UU. It cannot be burned, and the combination of Pursuit and Sucker Punch means the only way Rotom and Mismagius can escape is if they use Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Fighting on the switch and also win the subsequent prediction game. Spiritomb, the final UU Ghost-type, is not hit super effectively by Houndoom's Dark-type attacks, but usually cannot deal any significant damage in return. Combined with the possibility of Houndoom using Nasty Plot, Spiritomb is likely to switch out, allowing Houndoom to weaken it with Pursuit. Pokemon that benefit from the absence of Ghosts are good teammates for Houndoom. Donphan is probably the most effective; Houndoom traps and eliminates the Ghost-types that threaten to block Rapid Spin, and in return Donphan spins away Stealth Rock for Houndoom. The pair also have decent synergy together, as Mismagius or Rotom switching into Donphan are more likely to use Shadow Ball or Will-O-Wisp than Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Fighting. Choice Band users like Tauros or Hitmonlee also enjoy Ghost-types out of the way so they can use their STAB attacks with greater freedom. Swords Dance Toxicroak is also a very effective partner. Defensively, Toxicroak loves switching into Water attacks aimed at Houndoom, while Houndoom gets free switches when Toxicroak is targeted by Psychic-type moves. Many teams counter Swords Dance Toxicroak with either a Ghost-type packing Will-O-Wisp or a Psychic-type like Uxie; Houndoom is able to remove both of those counters, although it might get paralyzed by Uxie's Thunder Wave.</p>

<p>Using a specially oriented spread and Dark Pulse over Crunch is also an option. 100 Atk / 184 SpA / 224 Spe is recommended; the Attack EVs guarantee a Sucker Punch OHKO on Dugtrio after Stealth Rock. This variant performs better against Registeel, Slowbro, Moltres (Dark Pulse OHKOes with Stealth Rock while Crunch does not on average), and Intimidate Arcanine, but cannot 2HKO Chansey and deals less damage to Milotic. Pursuit and Sucker Punch become weaker as well; while Houndoom still OHKOes switching Rotom and Mismagius with Pursuit, the decrease in power is noticeable when using non-switch Pursuit and Sucker Punch.</p>

[SET]
name: Specialized Nasty Plot
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Dark Pulse
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Beat Up
item: Passho Berry
ability: Flash Fire
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Standard Nasty Plot Houndoom has issues getting past Water-type Pokemon—both defensive ones, such as Milotic, and offensive ones with Aqua Jet, such as Azumarill and Kabutops. With a Passho Berry, Houndoom has a good shot at beating all three. After one Nasty Plot, Hidden Power Grass 2HKOes Milotic, OHKOes Kabutops, and has a good chance of OHKOing Azumarill after Stealth Rock damage. Fire Blast and Dark Pulse provide great coverage in tandem, hitting every UU Pokemon outside of Blaziken, Houndoom, and Thick Fat Hariyama for at least neutral damage. Beat Up can be used instead of Hidden Power Grass in the last slot. If your team has three or four healthy team members left, it will usually OHKO Chansey, who otherwise walls this set. This does make Houndoom less effective against opposing Water-types, but Dark Pulse can usually pick up the slack, as it will still OHKO Kabutops and 2HKO Bold Milotic.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A Timid nature and straightforward EV spread are used to maximize sweeping potential. To deal more damage to specially defensive Milotic, especially variants with Haze, a Modest nature can be used instead. This still allows Houndoom to outpace base 80 Speed Pokemon like Venusaur and Kabutops, but makes it slower than Rotom, Moltres, Toxicroak, and Qwilfish.</p>

<p>In contrast to most Houndoom sets, this one is supposed to take a hit when it attempts a sweep. This means you should take care in keeping Houndoom's health relatively high, lest it gets weakened to the point that a Water attack KOes it through the Passho Berry. For example, Azumarill's Choice Band Aqua Jet has a fair chance to OHKO Houndoom if it has taken Stealth Rock damage but cannot KO a full HP Houndoom. Alternatively, if Houndoom switches into a mispredicted Sludge Bomb from defensive Weezing and Stealth Rock is up, it won't have enough health left to survive Milotic's Surf. Beyond highlighting the importance of playing this set carefully, these examples also illustrate why Rapid Spin support is important for this Houndoom. Donphan and Kabutops are the spinners most likely to fit on a team with Houndoom due to their offensive nature, but Hitmontop and Blastoise are solid choices as well.</p>

<p>Since Houndoom often lures and KOes the opposing team's bulky Water, it makes a good teammate for Pokemon that appreciate their absence. Feraligatr, especially bulky variants, have a much easier time sweeping when Milotic is eliminated. Bulky stat boosters like Curse Registeel, Calm Mind Spiritomb, and Calm Mind Clefable also benefit from the absence of Haze Milotic, since Milotic is many teams' primary counter to these Pokemon. Rock Polish Rhyperior and Aggron become more effective when Aqua Jet Azumarill and Kabutops are eliminated, and they certainly don't mind Houndoom weakening Milotic and Blastoise. </p>

<p>This set mainly has problems with faster sweepers, priority attacks, and Chansey. Alakazam, Swellow, Scyther, Dugtrio, and most other faster, moderately powered sweepers can take Houndoom down with a STAB or super effective attack. While Passho Berry provides a buffer against Aqua Jet, it does nothing to alleviate the damage done by Arcanine's ExtremeSpeed or Blaziken's Vacuum Wave, both of which deal upwards of 70% to Houndoom.</p>

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Dark Pulse
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Pursuit
item: Focus Sash / Lum Berry
ability: Early Bird / Flash Fire
nature: Naive
evs: 32 Atk / 252 SpA / 224 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Houndoom has the Speed and offensive capabilities to act as an effective anti-lead. It has great coverage with its dual STAB, and the given moveset allows Houndoom to effectively deal with the most common UU leads. Dark Pulse deals with Uxie, Mesprit, and Alakazam, while Fire Blast is useful against Spiritomb, Scyther, Nidoking, and Pinsir. Sucker Punch gives Houndoom the advantage over other attacking leads as it allows him to beat Focus Sash and priority users. Hidden Power Grass allows Houndoom to win against Cloyster, Omastar, Kabutops, and Rhyperior leads, but Pursuit can be used to trap leads like Mismagius who will most likely switch out.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Houndoom has a variety of options to choose from depending on specific team needs. Focus Sash protects Houndoom against faster Pokemon and mispredictions, while using Lum Berry aids it against Uxie's Thunder Wave. Counter, when combined with a Hasty nature, Defense IV of 0, and Focus Sash, can be used to score a surprise KO against physical leads. Taunt prevents entry hazards from being set up. An alternative EV spread of 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe can be used to Speed tie with Leafeon and Arcanine at the cost of a slightly weaker Sucker Punch. Picking Early Bird will make it easier for Houndoom to come out on top against sleep-inducing leads, but Flash Fire has more overall utility.</p>

<p>Although Houndoom is frail, it still has its uses later in the game. The given EVs allow it to outspeed Rotom, which also means it is faster than Moltres and Venusaur. Toxicroak makes a great teammate for Houndoom as it loves switching into Milotic, one of the most reliable counters for this set.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Overheat
move 2: Dark Pulse
move 3: Pursuit
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Toxic
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Hasty
ability: Flash Fire
evs: 84 Atk / 196 SpA / 228 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Houndoom usually doesn't have Speed issues, but attaching a Choice Scarf makes it a competent revenge killer for Rock Polish sweepers as well as naturally faster Pokemon like Mismagius, Alakazam, and Sceptile. Houndoom's Overheat and Dark Pulse provide great coverage, hitting the majority of the metagame for at least neutral damage. Pursuit is really what sets Houndoom apart from other Choice Scarf Pokemon, since it places Rotom and Mismagius in a checkmate position. Hidden Power Grass hits Rhyperior for big damage, while Toxic can cripple a predicted Milotic switch-in.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>228 Speed EVs ensure Houndoom is one point faster than Jolly Rock Polish Torterra and three points faster than Timid Choice Scarf Rotom. It takes too many Attack EVs to guarantee that Pursuit always OHKOes a switching 252 HP Mismagius, but 84 EVs ensures that if Stealth Rock is up and Mismagius switches out of Pursuit, it cannot switch back in without fainting to entry hazards (in other words, Pursuit takes off at least 13/16th of Mismagius's HP). The remaining EVs are dumped into Special Attack to power up Houndoom's main moves. If you find this set isn't hitting hard enough, changing its nature to Mild and / or shifting EVs into Special Attack is acceptable. A Mild nature and 160 Speed EVs will beat Jolly Rock Polish Aggron, while 124 EVs are required to outpace Adamant Rock Polish Torterra. As always, a Defense-lowering nature is preferable to make the most of Houndoom's decent Special Defense and resistance to Ghost- and Dark-type attacks.</p>

<p>As with most revenge killers, Houndoom is prone to being setup bait after it scores a KO. Opposing Houndoom and Blaziken set up on all of Houndoom's attacks, Water-type sweepers like Kabutops and Feraligatr set up on Overheat, and Toxicroak and its fellow Fighting-types set up on Dark Pulse. Finding Pokemon to cover every possible sweeper isn't very efficient, so checking to see if your team can handle the opponents' likely set-up sweeper during a battle is recommended before you lock Houndoom into an attack. It may be tempting to use Fire Blast instead of Overheat to let less Pokemon set up, but Overheat's extra power is appreciated for a set that doesn't have a boosting item or maximized Special Attack. Plus, any Pokemon that can set up on -2 Overheat can probably also set up on Fire Blast.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Houndoom is largely a self-sufficient sweeper; hard counters are few and far between, which means many teams rely on redundant checks to stop Houndoom. Despite this, there are some support options that Houndoom particularly appreciates. The first is Stealth Rock support. Even though the majority of its checks and counters aren't weak to Rock, the extra 12.5% damage inflicted on every switch puts many Pokemon, such as Azumarill, Milotic, and Dugtrio, into Houndoom's OHKO or 2HKO range. Since so many Pokemon can set up Stealth Rock, there isn't really a reason not to use it. Rapid Spin support gives Houndoom greater freedom when switching in and out, letting it pressure the opponent throughout the match. Kabutops and Donphan tend to fit best with Houndoom due to their offensive nature, but Blastoise is a sturdier option who can switch into Water-type attacks aimed at Houndoom.</p>

<p>Toxicroak is the UU Pokemon that has the best synergy with Houndoom, both offensively and defensively. While Houndoom bears a prominent weakness to Water-type moves, Toxicroak's Dry Skin ability grants it 25% HP healing every time it is hit by a Water-type attack. In return, Houndoom packs an immunity to Toxicroak's 4x Psychic weakness, although variants without Sucker Punch should be wary of Alakazam's Focus Blast. Houndoom's primary checks and counters are Water-type Pokemon, who present Toxicroak with easy switch-in opportunities; Toxicroak should beware of Double-Edge Azumarill and the very rare Hidden Power Psychic Milotic, though. Conversely, Toxicroak is beaten by Weezing, Uxie, and Psychic Spiritomb, all of whom Houndoom easily beats. Houndoom may not be the best initial switch into Uxie until you've scouted its set fully, though, since it commonly packs Thunder Wave. One potential downside with this combination is that since their counters are so diametrically opposed to each other, you might switch out Houndoom or Toxicroak to set up the other, only to find that a completely different Pokemon on your opponent's team walls your now-active sweeper. Usually, intelligent attacking and switching, along with using other Pokemon like Rotom and Torterra who can wear down these walls, will let you break through the opposing defense.</p>

<p>To defensively support Houndoom, the most obvious choice is a Pokemon who easily switches into Water-type attacks. On top of Toxicroak, Venusaur and Sceptile are both good options for offensive teams; your own Milotic (if it has Toxic) or Clefable work as well. Faster Pokemon and those with priority are Houndoom's most popular revenge killers. Aqua Jet, Vacuum Wave, Mach Punch, and ExtremeSpeed maim—if not outright KO—Houndoom, but Milotic or Rotom can absorb these hits. Spiritomb beats Hitmonlee and Hitmontop, two common Mach Punch users, and traps Alakazam with Pursuit, but is ineffective against Blaziken and Arcanine, the most common users of Vacuum Wave and ExtremeSpeed. Many faster Pokemon (Scyther, Tauros, and Swellow) use Normal- and Flying-type attacks, while most others are primarily special attackers (Mismagius, Manectric, and Sceptile), which makes Registeel a great defensive pivot for Houndoom. Houndoom with Sucker Punch can handle some of these threats itself, but appreciates extra support regardless.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>For all sets using Life Orb, a 29 HP IV decreases Life Orb recoil. With a perfect IV, Houndoom has an HP stat of 291, meaning it loses 29 HP to Life Orb recoil, while with a 29 HP IV it only has an HP stat of 289, corresponding to 28 HP lost to recoil. Although 29 HP IV Houndoom initially starts off with two fewer HP than 31 HP IV Houndoom, it gains one point relative to its counterpart every time it attacks; after two attacks, both Houndoom have equal HP, and at three or more attacks, 29 HP IV Houndoom comes out ahead. Basically, your choice should come down to how many attacks you expect Houndoom to fire off before it is KOed.</p>

<p>Essentially all of Houndoom's viable moves and items have been mentioned in one set or another, and you can mix and match these moves and items to other sets to fit specific needs. For example, if you find that you like the power that Life Orb brings but want to retain the ability to OHKO Chansey with Beat Up, you can replace Sucker Punch with Beat Up on the Life Orb set. One option that hasn't been mentioned, though, is the Rest + Early Bird combination. This grants Houndoom the ability to fully restore HP and remove status effects at the cost of only one turn. Early Bird Houndoom can use Nasty Plot along with Flamethrower and Dark Pulse, or it can even use Flamethrower, Toxic, and Taunt with a specially defensive spread to serve as a stallbreaker.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Houndoom's most reliable counter is specially defensive Milotic with Haze. Physically defensive Milotic also works quite well in most cases, although it has issues dealing with the uncommon Passho Berry Houndoom. Other Water-type Pokemon are also good switch-ins since they resist Houndoom's STAB Fire attacks. The physically oriented ones, such as Azumarill, Kabutops, and Feraligatr, commonly pack Aqua Jet, which can KO Houndoom before it is able to attack. Blastoise is essentially a lesser Milotic in terms of countering Houndoom, but can check it neatly in a pinch.</p>

<p>Priority attacks are also a great way to check Houndoom. Arcanine's ExtremeSpeed, Blaziken's Vacuum Wave, Hitmontop's Mach Punch, and the aforementioned Aqua Jet all guarantee OHKOs on Houndoom with Stealth Rock damage. Speaking of Arcanine, specially defensive versions counter Houndoom as well since ExtremeSpeed (even without Attack investment) 2HKOes Houndoom, while a boosted Dark Pulse doesn't OHKO Arcanine. Finally, Houndoom's frailty leaves it easy prey for faster Pokemon with a decently powered attack, such as Scyther, Tauros, Sceptile, and Swellow. Dugtrio deserves a special mention since Houndoom cannot switch out of its Earthquake due to Arena Trap. If Houndoom has Sucker Punch, Mismagius and Alakazam should be careful when revenge killing, and Dugtrio needs Substitute to come out on top.</p>
 
Good job Whistle.

I'd just like to bring up Substitute as an option on the Specialized NP set. It can give Houndoom protection against status, and it can set us easily on Spiritomb, etc... which gives it protection against priority like Blazikens VW or Azumarills AJ. I think it's worth a mention in set comments at least.
 

Bluewind

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Everything looks good, but I think you could put up an alternative spread for MixDoom with whch it 2HKOes Chansey with Crunch over Dark Pulse, as the current spread only deals 38.47% - 45.48%. Good job whoostle.
 

shrang

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I don't think the Specs set should be dropped so readily. Yes, it has problems with SR and what not, but its sheer power should not be underestimated. If you can nag a Flash Fire boost, not even Blissey's safe from Specs Fire Blast.
 
@thund - okay

@bluewind - i didn't really like houndoom that beats chansey through physical attacks since it loses the ability to do something else (like if you're dropping dark pulse or fire blast or one of its other dark moves). iäll mention that in ac though.

@shrang - you know what else chansey doesn't like... flash fire nasty plotted life orb fire blast. the power output of the specs set is not very impressive by itself and it is even worse when you consider houndoom can use a one-turn +2 boosting move. it also relies way too much on prediction. houndoom doesn't get too many chances to switch in in the first place due to its sr weak and frailty (unlike something like specstran in ou).

(wrote the post and have to go now so i'll update in a few hours or a day or something)
 
I think physical Houndoom deserves a set, Bad Ass / Franky / whoever else uses Dekzeh's old team have done pretty well with it.

[SET]
name: Physical
move 1: Pursuit
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Crunch / Thunder Fang
move 4: Fire Blast
item: Life Orb
ability: Flash Fire
nature: Hasty
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

The extra Attack EVs let it easily dispatch of any Ghost-type - much more easily than the mixed set. It also beats Chansey.
 

Bad Ass

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posting to say that thunder fang can be pretty useful against moltres when compared to crunch (49.2% - 57.9% with 252 atk neutral tf compared to 44.9% - 53.3% with the same spread and crunch) and milotic (35.5% - 42.1% with 252/200 calm and tf compared to 32.2% - 38.3% with the same spread and crunch). i prefer crunch so i have the reliable dark attack / chansey killer, but if i feel like moltres and milotic need to die early, i'll use thunder fang.

edit: i didn't see that you weren't using max attack. when i use mixdoom i just go max attack / speed for rotom / rest in satk and crunch | thunder fang / fire blast / sucker punch / pursuit. If you aren't using max attack, use dark pulse.
 
well for the record, dekzeh's evs are 156 atk / 128 satk / 224 speed. he used 156 attack to guarantee the ko on dugtrio without sr but i think i appreciate the extra 56 evs elsewhere more often than i don't have sr on the field.

with 100 atk, houndoom deals 106.2% - 125.9% to 252 hp mismagius and 94.7% - 111.2% to 252 hp rotom, which are both guaranteed kos after sr and leftovers. it doesn't ohko 252/252+ rotom obviously but that set is just so rare when compared to just max hp (which isn't too common in the first place but is something this set should beat); 25.1% vs 6.1%. so it doesn't really need 252 evs to perform its ghostbusting duties well.

with more attack and crunch, houndoom can beat crunch and sucker punch does a bit more damage against stuff. with the current spread, fire blast (which is always your most powerful attack) stings more, and you perform better vs uxie and slowbro (note that dark pulse actually does more vs moltres; 51.4% - 60.7%). maybe it comes down to a difference in what we think the set should do... in my mind, it is a specially oriented cleaner that uses its unique ability to easily take down defensive ghosts and isn't vulnerable to dugtrio. it seems like heysup and bad ass think of it as a physical set with fire blast for stuff like registeel and donphan. should i add them as two separate sets? or is one "better" than the other (the "worse" one will go to ac, naturally). kinda looking at tof/eo/people who aren't on qc but should give input if they back it up, here.
 

franky

aka pimpdaddyfranky, aka frankydelaghetto, aka F, aka ef
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Well I do agree somewhat with the spread but max atk / enough speed for rotom / rest to spa is a nice and simple EV spread to use. the reason why i like max atk on my mixdoom is because it makes a pretty good priority user lategame when required. 252 Atk + STAB is going to hurt something frail believe it or not. It also comes in handy with Mismagius and Rotom who decide to stay in and attack.

(staying in)
max versus Mismagius 0 HP - 77.9% - 91.6% (chance of OHKO with sr or lo recoil)
max versus Mismagius 252 Hp - 63% - 74.1%
100 atk versus Mismagus 0 HP - 64.9% - 77.9%
100 atk versus Mismagius 252 HP - 52.5% - 63%
 
Does Beat Up do anything notable on the NP set? 2HKO Chansey? OHKO?

And does the physical set really want 3 Dark physical attacks?
 
Does Beat Up do anything notable on the NP set? 2HKO Chansey? OHKO?

And does the physical set really want 3 Dark physical attacks?
1-2HKOes Chansey depending which Pokemon are alive (though usually even 2 others is enough to 2HKO).

And why wouldn't the physical set want 3 dark attacks? Just because its "3 dark attacks" isn't a reason :)
 
okay i updated

- thunds thingy
- fixed mixed set

i kinda want to fix the evs for the scarf set.
- since it cant invest too much in attack i picked a lower benchmark for pursuit. i wanted it to do 13/16*hp minimum, which is enough to ensure that if a pokemon switches into SR and gets leftovers recovery, then is hit by pursuit, it can't survive another switch into SR. 4 attack evs achieves this much against offensive rotom and mismagius. 252 hp rotom is too bulky and you'd have to go way too much attack to be viable, but you "only" need 84 attack to beat 252 hp mismagius in this fashion.
- in terms of the speed it needs, houndoom only has to hit 292 speed to revenge rp aggron, which also means it can beat rp torterra and rp rhyperior. this means a +special attack nature is out of the question since it needs to revenge shit. this is 160 speed with a positive nature.
- 252 special attack obviously. this is 496 evs total.
- what should i do with the rest? what do you guys think about the new ev spread (84 atk / 252 spa / 160 spe / 12 ???, hasty)

edit: 224 speed can be used to beat scarf rotom and checkmate it with pursuit, while 232 speed can be used to beat jolly rp torterra. and super fang is pretty lackluster on something with high attacking stats and low defenses like houndoom, since it might as well just use a normal attack and it doesn't get too many chances to super fang so it can't wear stuff down.
 
4 HP makes Houndoom's HP stat divisible by four (can only switch into SR four times instead of five), so 4 Def / SpD is probably better for the special NP set. Unless it's supposed to do that or doesn't matter.
 
wow nice catch, thanks. updated the OP with that. also swapped the orders of specialized NP and Mix, and updated the scarf evs. moving to UU forum because of the new rule stating only two stamps are needed until Heysup gets back (posted by Phil in the Documentation thread).
 
Just a note, similar to my comment in the Scyther analysis a while back. If LO Houndoom used an HP IV of 29, it would have 289 HP instead of 291, meaning it only takes 28 damage from LO recoil instead of 29. After 2 attacks, it will have broken even, and after 3 it will have more HP than a 31 IV Houndoom.
 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
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Why not run max speed on the LO NP set? It'll only take minor marginal investment at this point, and I don't think it'll affect any kills if you pull it out of special attack, and having max speed means you beat things quite a few things (Drapion, Leafeon, slower Houndoom) and lets you handle weakened Arcanine (Sucker Punching before they can Extremespeed and kill/severely weaken you).

Anyway...

 
@ steinhauser - ok i'll mention that

@ flare - i dunno i guess its just how i feel about mix sets. since they have to split evs among three different stats i like maxing the most important stat and only putting the minimum needed evs into the other two, only decreasing the important stat's evs as much as the other two need. its most important stat is probably special attack, and after 224 i just don't see the need for max speed:

| Leafeon | Speed EV | Max | 66.3 |
| Arcanine | Ability | Intimidate | 62.0 |
-1 lo sucker punch vs 0/0 [!] arcanine 28.3% - 33.6%
| Drapion | Speed EV | Max | 57.8 |
| Drapion | Nature | Jolly | 65.1 |

i guess it is useful to speed tie sometimes but since we're already lowering satk... i don't like making it even lower. i will definitely mention it in optional changes but for making it the primary spread id like to hear some more opinions (since this is a pretty subjective determination). also somewhat trivially, 156 satk lo dark pulse's minimum damage roll falls two HP points short of KOing moltres after SR. its possible to find "you barely don't ko this" for everything though so that's not really much of a reason.
 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
I dunno, I always wince a little whenever my Toxicroak outruns and ohkos an extremely confident Arcanine switch-in, so I find it best to just run max speed so you don't lose to silly shit like Leafeon and Drapion. And 30% against Arcanine is plenty, since non-CB variants can't ohko you with Extremespeed (most of the time) meaning you can force it into Morning Sun/Dark Pulse mindgames if it had taken any sort of residual damage from any of the millions of things that damage arcanine (lo, sr, me).

You're right though, it would probably be best to hear from some other QC people on this, and an AC mention should be fine otherwise.
 

franky

aka pimpdaddyfranky, aka frankydelaghetto, aka F, aka ef
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
i like hp grass as a slash and i believe it mandatory to have a high chance at beating milotic (one of the main things to lure in). this is one the speciallized nasty plot set by the way.

+2 dark pulse vs. standard Milotic - 48.9% - 57.5%
+2 hp grass vs. standard Milotic - 57.5% - 67.7%

+2 hp grass vs. azumarill - 81.8% - 96.3% (chance of ohko with sr)
+2 dark pulse vs. azumarill - 69.8% - 82.3%

i feel like this one lures in stuff and i'd rather use something to secure the ohkoes on them if they are in pristine condition. whether it should get the first slash or not, i really wish it would get a slash alongside beat up.
 
well bold milotic dies to dark pulse with sr anyways, but i can definitely see how hp grass is useful for calm milotic (except haze calm milotic grrr) and azumarill. also it means you can beat kabutops 1v1 which is a scenario that's come up a few times for me.

i dunno where to slash it; i think hp grass has more "overall" utility than beat up since chansey isn't that common, but the point of the set is to sort of be a stallbreaker against teams that rely on milotic/chansey to beat houndoom. so putting beat up as the secondary slash sort of defeats that purpose. but maybe a better purpose for the set is to beat common water checks, which makes hp grass a much better option. i kind of like that approach actually so unless someone's got a strong objection i think i will slash them hp grass / beat up.
 

franky

aka pimpdaddyfranky, aka frankydelaghetto, aka F, aka ef
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
yeah i've always thought this set's true purpose is to beat bulky waters and thanks to houndoom's nature to lure in approximately three pokemon for the most part (milotic, azumaril, and chansey) - luring them in will be quite consistent and it will always get the job done, which is why i suggest HP grass to be the superior option over beat up. this set is also one of the best milotic lures in the game and that title is really to boast about so yea, i think hp grass needs the primary slash. that's just my two cents from testing this guy.
 
i just went through and checked this myself to get rid of most of the blatant errors, so commence gp checking!

if you could explicitly show your changes (rising_dusk/jc104 style, in other words) rather than just give me the final version with colors, that would be nice.
 

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