CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 12a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

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Deck Knight

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Non-Attacking Move Discussion

Please read the entire OP before posting.

Our CAP so far:

DougJustDoug said:
DougJustDoug said:
Name: Perfect Mate

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

Justification:
This would allow us to explore in detail how synergy between two pokemon can be achieved, because currently there are only a few perfect teammates in OU. And depending on the base pokemon we choose to give a "perfect mate", we can open a new niche in the metagame based around the efficient pairing.
The niche we create will be inherently tied to an existing pokemon in the metagame, which should provide a natural limitation to prevent this concept from being broken or "too different" from standard OU.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • Is the base pokemon's usefulness (and usage) in the metagame increased as a result of having a "perfect mate"?
  • What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon, as a result of having a perfect teammate?
  • What are the most effective aspects of the new pokemon, for purposes of making a great teammate with the base pokemon?
  • Is the new pokemon viable in the metagame without the base pokemon as a teammate
Typing: Fighting / Dark
Stat Spread: 90 HP / 85 Atk / 80 Def / 105 SpA / 80 SpD / 110 Spe
Abilities: Volt Absorb / Lightningrod
Name: Voodoom

An "Attacking Move" is a move that deals damage to an opponent as its main purpose. All other moves are considered "Non-Attacking Moves." As a general rule, any move that can be used under Taunt is considered to be an Attacking Move. However, there are a few exceptional moves that deal a small amount of damage, but their primary battle purpose is based on a secondary move effect, and are therefore considered Non-Attacking moves. For example, Rapid Spin and Knock Off are considered to be Non-Attacking Moves, even though they can be used under Taunt. U-turn can be used as an attacking move on Pokemon such as Scizor, which has a high Attack stat and gets STAB on the move; however, on Pokemon such as Fidgit, it is used more as a scouting or support move. The Topic Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered Attacking or Non-Attacking Moves for a given Pokemon.

All moves will be categorized as Competitive, Non-Competitive, or Required.

  • Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given Pokemon. This categorization is applicable depending on the Pokemon. Sometimes a move will be competitive on one Pokemon and non-competitive for another.
  • Required moves are moves that must be included in the final movepool, and are generally not up for discussion. A list of common Required moves can be found in X-Act's movepool guide.

The list of moves will be separated into three sections indicating the "status" of the move in the current discussion -- Allowed, Disallowed, Controversial, or Pending.

  • Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the Pokemon's final movepool
  • Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to not be allowed in the Pokemon's final movepool
  • Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
  • Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are Allowed, Disallowed, or Controversial

The community should make posts arguing for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed. DO NOT make posts arguing for Controversial. I will re-categorize moves as the discussion progresses.

Allowed:
Force Palm
Body Slam
Knock Off
Thunder Wave
Glare
Bulk Up
Psych Up
Acupressure
Baton Pass
Perish Song
Imprison
Block/Mean Look
Psycho Shift
Sunny Day
Rain Dance
Taunt
Torment
Snatch
Counter
Pain Split
Safeguard
Gravity


Controversial:

Pending:

Disallowed:
Legal combinations of Block/Mean Look and Baton Pass
Legal combinations of Block/Mean Look and Perish Song
Stat Boosters outside Bulk Up/Accupressure
Sleep Moves
Switcheroo/Trick
50% Recovery Moves
Fake Tears/Metal Sound
Heal Bell/Aromatherapy
Reflect/Light Screen
Entry Hazards
Destiny Bond
Will-O-Wisp
Trick Room
Mirror Coat
Fake Out
Encore
U-turn

Move Discussion Posting Rules

  • The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.
  • Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the Pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.
  • Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy my list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.
  • I will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.
  • Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.
  • I am the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". I may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.
  • All moves that are considered Competitive for this Pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).
  • If you disagree with the my categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.
  • No Custom Non-Attacking Moves. There are too many effects to begin with, and Voodoom does not need one unique to itself.
 

Deck Knight

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For reference in making argunents, these are the Allowed and Disallowed Attacking Moves our Non-Attacking Moves will work with:

If a move is not on the allowed list and is competitive, it cannot be a basis for argument.

Allowed:

Double-Edge
Dark Pulse
Payback
Crunch
Night Slash
Sucker Punch
Brick Break
Focus Blast
Focus Punch
Aura Sphere
Low Kick
Vacuum Wave
Stone Edge
Rock Slide
Superpower
Ice Punch
Ice Beam
Blizzard
Close Combat
Earthquake
Power Gem
Psychic
Mach Punch
Pursuit
Shadow Sneak

Disallowed:

Electric Moves
Grass Moves
Fire Moves
 
I started by looking at the list of competitive non-attacking moves.

On the whole the stat-reducing moves look fine. None of the moves which "lower X stat two stages" is broken in any way. On the other hand Kinesis should probably be disallowed - it's essentially a signature move for Alakazam.

Stat boosting moves are trickier. In particular, should it have Nasty Plot? I feel that if Voodoom knows NP, it has one reason to team up with Togekiss (which is the concept). So, ban Nasty Plot (and Calm Mind, and Growth, and Tail Glow). If Voodoom wants a special attack boost, then it should get it from elsewhere.

We've also carefully balanced the speed, so I'd disallow Agility, Dragon Dance, and Rock Polish too.

I know those are all 'low-hanging fruit,' but hopefully we can come to a consensus (ban moves which raise SpA or Spe, allow moves which reduce stats apart from Kinesis) quickly, and then move on.
 

bugmaniacbob

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Disallowed

Bulk Up - I really, really don't want to see this on the final movepool. I think I gave some reasoning on IRC, so I'll just reiterate - Bulk Up is a move that does not benefit the concept or Togekiss, no matter how good it is a move for Voodoom. Several people have said that Baton Passing Bulk Up would be a useful tool to use, but however good a strategy this might be, it is in no way relevant to the concept as Togekiss's "Perfect Mate". I think it is not irrelevant to say that many CAPs have deviated from their concept to a great extent by virtue of "alternative strategies" that only loosely come within the bounds of the concept (see: Kitsunoh), and this is something I don't want to see happen here.

Taunt - This is less justifiable than Bulk Up, perhaps, but I still want to argue its case. Taunt is an extremely useful move, one that I think might be too useful - but what I really want to impress is that, to my mind, those most affected by its inclusion are those that we want to check or counter Voodoom, by which I mean, bulky Waters and Grasses. Suicune can no longer rest or Calm Mind, Vaporeon can no longer WishProtect, etc... This may not seem of great importance, but I want Togekiss to have a much greater role in the partnership than that already afforded, and by being more adept at taking on a particular group than its partner, this can be exercised more easily. If you disagree with the fact that bulky Waters are greatly affected by Taunt, remember that Voodoom is immune to Thunder Wave and not all that troubled by Toxic and WillOWisp (I mean, it's not like it's walling anything realistically), just about the only secondary moves it will be Taunting are attempts at recovery and possibly early set-up. The only Pokemon who really stand a chance at recover-stalling him are, again, bulky Waters, so they are the ones most affected by the inclusion. As for early set-up, this is translated almost entirely into being a form of Anti-Lead, as for most other set-up it is more obsolete. Making Voodoom a better lead is not relevant to the concept, and so for this and the other reasons, I have to say no to Taunt.

All offensive stat-up moves (eg. Swords Dance, Nasty Plot) - Firstly, I don't want Voodoom turning into even a solo sweeper, which Swords Dance and Nasty Plot both have the potential to do. Voodoom already has a potent special movepool and offensive typing, so I don't see why we should carry this any further. In any case, Nasty Plot could be too dangerous on sch a potent attacker, and Swords Dance has little benefit for Togekiss even from a Baton Pass perspective. In the interests of balance I condemn these moves.

Controversial

Recovery moves (eg. Recover, Moonlight) - I say controversial because I haven't made up my mind on these moves yet, but want to bring them up for debate. On the one hand, they have little relevance to the concept at large so I'd prefer if it didn't get these, though of course on the other hand there is nothing particularly overpowering or controversial about them, as they don't do Starmie or Scizor any harm. I'd like to see somebody else's reasoning here very much.

Allowed

Baton Pass - Everybody seems to want this. The ability to give Togekiss a free switch with SubPass or simple prediction on a double switch, or even Passing Agility boosts to help with Togekiss's mediocre Speed. Some people I believe are also set on a Pass-exchange strategy between Voodoom and Togekiss that could be quite effective. As long as Voodoom doesn't get nasty stat-raising moves like Swords Dance and Nasty Plot (Agility is fine), I'll be happy to recommend Baton Pass for allowed.

Agility - Helps with Togekiss's mediocre Speed by Baton Passing, and arguably the least offensive of any competitive stat-raising move, as Voodoom's high Speed renders the positive effects lower in value than a free turn and another moveslot could offer. Still worth a look into.

Thunder Wave - Paralysis support is nice, and helps with a Togekiss sweep by remedying the low Speed stat of the aforesaid, and allowing Togekiss to free up one of its own moveslots. Not broken, and probably wouldn't see much use, but it's a nice little niche option that I think could be made use of. Also pertains to the concept.

Trick Room - Yet another Speed-raising move (in a manner of speaking), but this time with Doubles in mind too. Trick Room does not see much use in singles battling, and this support would arguably be more useful for other Pokemon than Togekiss despite its relatively low Speed stat. However, with the inclusion of Lightningrod, I should like to bring a small consideration to bear on the part of a Togekiss-Voodoom partnership in doubles. It may seem naive of me to suggest doubles reasoning given that I have little knowledge of the metagame, but I would be interested to see how that partnership would work, especially with Togekiss's extensive doubles movepool regardless.
 
I'd say a few stat upping moves, such as swords dance and bulk up should be given to Voodoom, because in contrast to BugManiacBob, you need to look at this Pokemon as functioning outside of a Voodoom/Togekiss combo.
I wouldn't agree with Nasty Plot though, as thats coming off the higher special attack stat.

I'll probably recomment later when there's a proper list of pending/controversial moves to talk about.
 
Allowed:
Substitute: This move is an obvious choice since the sub can be passed to Togekiss and CAP 11 has focus punch. Switching in on a choiced TBolt gives CAP11 a free setup for a sub, which is awesome, btw.

Batton Pass: As well as allowing it to pass stat changes to (or back to) togekiss, it can pass subs to it too.

Glare/Body Slam: Togekiss has thunder-wave already, but needs paralysis to function at peak capacity, so giving CAP11 a move that can paralyze the electricity immune seems like a solid decision to me.

Scary Face: Is like a lesser glare. But it's more accurate, so it should be fine.

Imprison: Even ignoring how much the move makes sense for a voodoo doll, Togekiss can take a hefty hurtin from STAB fighting moves, and CAP11 doesn't resist them either. If you are running a non-sub-punch moveset for CAP11, you can probably seal that attack so that you don't die to it and you don't have to switch togekiss in on it because he can die from it too.

Pain Split: While I said "no heals" earlier, this move only heals situationally. To ME, it heals situationally enough to make it ok. and it also has great pottential applications against Blissey who gives togekiss a lot of trouble.


Disalowed:
Bulk Up, Swords Dance, Dragon dance. This CAP is togekiss's perfect mate.... what will Toge do with these stats?

Recovery moves (other than rest): Cap11 has volt absorb or a togekiss wish. it shouldn't need anything else. It should have to rely on what it already has by being mated to togekiss.

Thunder Wave: Togekiss loves it, but togekiss already has it.


Contraversial:
Nasty Plot: doesn;t feel like the right sort of move if we don't want CAP11 to be a standalone sweeper, but at least he can pass this stat bonus on to Toge and it'll actually do something.

Agility: Passing speed to a flincher is always a good thing, but CAP11 was balanced with its speed in mind, so maybe allowing it to alter that speed is a poor decision.
 
Allowed:

Bulk Up:
While possibly being broken, Bulk Up could really help the duo. Passing Bulk Up to Togekiss brings it's mediocre defense to a reliable heigt. And maybe as a bonus, it could be passed to MixKiss/HustleKiss and turn them into viable strategies. Remember it's supposed to be a partner for Togekiss as a whole, not just FlinchKiss.

Baton Pass: Passing Subs and boosts between the duo would help a lot, if Voodoom get's Agility it would help boost Kiss's mediocre speed and protect it from getting revenge killed.

Substitute: Switch in Voodoom on a T-Wave, Sub, Pass and Togekiss is back in action.

Agility: As stated above, Agility would help turn Togekiss into a reliable sweeper while at the same time preventing it from getting revenge killed by scarfers.

Disallowed:

Sword's Dance:
Sword's Dance would turn Voodoom into a solo sweeper. We gave it Sucker Punch, giving it SD would make it kill Gengar and Starmie without any trouble at all. We wanted Gengar and Starmie as checks, giving Voodoom SD would make them useless.
 
I'm against Nasty Plot. I think that for such an amount of sweeping power, Voodoom should stay in reliance of Togekiss. If he can set up all by himself, what will he ever need Togekiss for after that. The biggest beauty in their relationship is his ability to wreck the metagame after getting passed a NP boost from Togekiss.

However, there are two moves that I do like to submit for allowed.

Baton Pass
is a given for the next move I would like to see allowed, but it also would allow Voodoom to pass Nasty Plot boosts from Togekiss straight back to her after Voodoom finishes his job.

Calm Mind
lacks the offensive power that Nasty Plot has, and I believe Calm Mind benefits the couple a very great deal. I can already see a situation where you switch in a Togekiss early, hoping to draw out counters for Togekiss. Voodoom takes care of said counter, gets a Calm Mind, and passes that back to Togekiss. After a Calm Mind, Togekiss's already respectable S.Def becomes really nice, able to take special hits really well. Of course, Kiss is still vulnerable to physical hits, but so be it. After a CM, Togekiss can also dish out some respectable damage, without having to run Nasty Plot herself, freeing up a moveslot for additional coverage. That's why I feel Calm Mind would make a good move on Voodoom, hoping that once Voodoom clears Togekiss's counters, baton passing a Calm Mind back to Togekiss may make her a very respectable and bulky sweeper.


Besides Calm Mind, I only really support Agility as a boosting move. Agility obviously helps Togekiss, which is beneficial to this combo, and Voodoom himself will likely not benefit at all from Agility anyway, so it will not promote unnecessary sweeping potential.


I'd also like to say that I'm against Bulk Up. I realize it's a T-M requirement, however, that does not stop us from disallowing it to be on it's movepool.
Bulk Up does absolutely nothing to aid this combo. A physical based Voodoom is completely stand alone from Togekiss anyway, as Togekiss has nothing to really offer to a physical based Voodoom, unlike it's ability to pass NP's when Voodoom is specially based. Vice Versa, if you would want to pass something back to Togekiss, unless you are running a HustleKiss, Togekiss will really not care much about Bulk Up.
Now you could say, that boosting moves should not only depend on whether the partner would find use from it in some way, with an argument like "But Voodoom should also perform outside of Togekiss's help". However, if the physical boosting set would prove to work well, (because even if it's the lower stat, physical fighting moves are far stronger than Aura Sphere) physical Voodoom would not need Togekiss in the slightest. I really don't feel that that benefits the concept at all.


TL;DR
I'm pushing for Calm Mind, Agility and Baton Pass to be allowed
I feel Bulk Up and Nasty Plot (and basically any other boosting move) to be disallowed
 

X-Act

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Allowed: Acupressure. For flavour, and because it is a competitive non-attacking move.

Allowed: Mean Look / Block. It would be nice to trap a Pokemon for Togekiss to deal with it. A trapping move wouldn't be that useless either. I'm envisaging switching Voodoom against Blissey for instance, Voodoom using Mean Look as Blissey switches out to something like Starmie, only for Voodoom to Baton Pass the Mean Look to Togekiss for it to have fun against the trapped Starmie.

Allowed: Baton Pass. Speaking of Baton Pass, it is required for something like the above to work. Maybe other boosts could be passed as well.

Disallowed: Nasty Plot / Growth. Something that increases SpA would be too good, I think.
 

firecape

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Allowed: Acupressure. For flavour, and because it is a competitive non-attacking move.

Allowed: Mean Look / Block. It would be nice to trap a Pokemon for Togekiss to deal with it. A trapping move wouldn't be that useless either. I'm envisaging switching Voodoom against Blissey for instance, Voodoom using Mean Look as Blissey switches out to something like Starmie, only for Voodoom to Baton Pass the Mean Look to Togekiss for it to have fun against the trapped Starmie.
I don't mean to call you out here, but we had a long discussion on IRC about this subject in #cap. It was decided upon, by the majority of the people in the chat, that Mean Look + Baton Pass would be broken together. You can bluff the regular set, still getting perfect coverage with Dark Pulse and Aura Sphere, only to trap Blissey, or a bulky Water-type, with Mean Look, then Baton Pass to a Pokemon that can easily set up and get +6 in a chosen stat. This strategy could effectively end stall teams. Umbreon is a different case, it doesn't have 110 base Speed to work with, and has no offensive prowess at all. Therefore I suggest Mean Look and Baton Pass dissallowed together. Either move by itself isn't broken, but together they are too dangerous.
 
I'd like to allow Spikes. Apart from being a great flavour move, Voodoom can be expected to force switches effectively, letting it get up entry hazards, which can help Togekiss sweep (admittedly Spikes doesn't hit Zapdos or Rotom, two big counters of Togekiss, you can attack them directly instead.)

I'd also like Toxic Spikes to be considered, but that would throw Voodoom into Gyarados partner territory, being able to cripple bulky Waters so easily. It would help against Blissey, however.
 

Jibaku

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As much as I love Spikes myself, I vote to disallow it as Voodoom would stray away from its role as a Togekiss partner to being a lead, setting up Spikes with relative ease thanks to its base 110 Speed. Then there are sweepers who enjoy Spikes more than Togekiss. With a simple set of Vacuum Wave / [Focus Blast or Taunt]/ Dark Pulse / Spikes @ Focus Sash, 252 Spd / 252 SAtk....

Vs Aerodactyl: Often knocked out by Focus Blast + Vacuum Wave, and can not 2HKO Voodoom in return (bar...Aerial Ace?)

Vs Azelf: Dark Pulse + Vacuum Wave easily knocks it out. Azelf's best option is to U-turn out I guess, though it risks being Spiked on in the process. If Azelf uses Stealth Rock on the first turn Voodoom is left without any sort of damage and is free to Spike afterwards.

Vs Infernape: Vacuum Wave hits through Fake Out, and Focus Blast cleans the rest. You can try Aura Sphere if you want but it's not a guaranteed KO. If you don't have Focus Blast, you can Vacuum Wave past the Fake Out, break Infernape's Sash then just use Spikes

Vs Swampert: Just Spike spike spike

Vs Forretress: Specially Defensive Forry can surprisingly live through two Focus Blasts, so it can get two layers (or more if Focus Blast misses). That said, that does render Forry unusable so you can Spike without really worrying about a Spinner later. Otherwise, you can just Taunt it and switch out.

Vs Metagross: Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch won't KO. Just Spike on it.

Vs Roserade: You're faster so you can get one layer. You can also Taunt on a predicted Sleep Powder and get two layers

Vs Smeargle: See Roserade; beware of U-turn kinda.

Vs Skarmory: If they don't have Brave Bird, Taunt + Spikes will take care of it.

The ability to Spike will give Voodoom a great leading role and supports other sweepers better than Togekiss. Note how Voodoom does not have any real losses here against the most common leads (except for Forretress)

Disallow Calm Mind, because it would quite easily make Voodoom a deadly standalone sweeper. A simple set of Calm Mind / Aura Sphere / Dark Pulse / Taunt @ Leftovers can rip holes in many teams, setting up on bulky Waters such as Vaporeon and occasionally Suicune, and still destroying Blissey thanks to Taunt and super-effective, STAB Aura Sphere. After two Calm Minds, 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey is 2HKOed by Aura Sphere, and after 3 Calm Minds, 252 SDef Calm Blissey is 2HKOed. Assuming sandstorm is up, even 252 SDef Calm Bliss is 2HKOed after Stealth Rock damage. Furthermore, the Special Defense boost from Calm Mind makes it difficult for Starmie to penetrate it.

Another set that could easily be run is Calm Mind / Dark Pulse / Aura Sphere / Vacuum Wave @ Life Orb, which foregoes Taunt's utility for a more direct approach. +1 Life Orb Vacuum Wave nearly always OHKOes Scarftar after Stealth Rock damage, and +1 LO Aura Sphere OHKOes Scizor. +1 LO Aura Sphere 2HKOes Vaporeon, Suicune, etc, while +1 Dark Pulse handles Dragonite, Zapdos, blahblahblah. You get the point - It becomes simply too powerful of a sweeper and requires no support from Togekiss at all.

Disallow Rapid Spin
- Okay come on guys, that's Colossoil's concept =/. 110 base Speed + biggest anti-Ghost in the game + Rapid Spin = no thanks

And allow these moves:
Mean Look - As long as it stays illegal with Baton Pass
Perish Song - For the record PerishTrapping is not broken or disastrous to the concept, given the amount of very heavy hitters as well as the existence of U-turn
Destiny Bond - You can't argue against this...
Pain Split - ^
Bulk Up - I -may- explain this later but I think it's not destructive enough to the concept that we can respect it as a T-M. Plus, Togekiss -can- actually appreciate Bulk Up through the Mixed set. After all, no one said this CAP should support only Togekiss' typical sets. Speaking of Bulk Up getting passed to Togekiss....
Baton Pass - I hate this move but I don't see a reason to disallow it.
Thunder Wave - Okay great, you have 110 Speed, 105 Special Attack, and practically unresisted STABs. Would you rather try to to use this quality to destroy the switch ins, or would you throw around Thunder Waves in hopes you'd catch a Starmie or a Weavile (lol)? Thunder Wave allows slower things to come in easier and annihilate or force Voodoom out, and Starmie can switch out of Thunder Wave anyways (preferably to something slower than can take a Dark Pulse with ease).
Substitute - Because I want to drive firecape crazy by suggesting this move
 
Allowed
Heal Bell/Aromatherapy/Safeguard Togekiss dislikes thunder wave and toxic,so these moves will help togekiss by preventing them from working.

Encore Will make it easier for togekiss to switch in, or for voodoom to set up and baton pass to togekiss.

Screens Helps togekiss getting in.

Controversial
Rapid Spin Helps by removing stealth rocks for togekiss, but not so sure if its right for voodoom.
Memento By sacrificing itself, it gives togekiss a much easier time switching in, but it breaks the synergy, so i'm not quite sure if it fits the concept.
Destiny Bond Voodoom can sacrifice itself to remove a counter to togekiss from the game (eg Zapdos) But can't really think of any other use for it.
Psych Up Although it can be deadly if used correctly, it is quite situational and may not see much use.
 

tennisace

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I agree with Firecape wholeheartedly on his point: Trapping Move + Baton Pass completely decimates every single stall/bulky team. Since Voodoom has 110 Speed, it outspeeds everything except Starmie running max speed (which isn't common on stall at all. It can then pass to a teammate at its leisure, meaning each Pokemon gets picked off one by one. So while neither move is broken on its own, the combination should be barred from every movepool. (PS: Look at Bulk Up + Recover on Arghonaut. You can easily play with the Egg Moves to make them separate.)

So, Trapping Moves (Mean Look, Block, and Spider Web) and Baton Pass should be allowed, but not on the same set.

There aren't many moves I think are that bad on Voodoom, since if you aren't running at least two of Aura Sphere/Dark Pulse/Ice Beam or HP Ice then you're really doing something wrong.

Encore is an excellent alternative to Taunt, however I don't know if it's more powerful than we want it to be. I think its a bit too powerful for Voodoom though.

I'd like to disallow Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock. These moves allow Voodoom to become sort of a stand-alone Pokemon that does its own thing, and only has vague synergy with Togekiss.

I also agree with Jibaku in that Calm Mind should be disallowed. Unlike Bulk Up, which runs off of a mediocre base 85, Calm Mind allows Voodoom to set up on Bulky Waters/Blissey with ease.
 
Encore seems like the perfect move for Voodoom. By Encoring something like Swords Dance or Earthquake, you can give Togekiss a free switch in to T-Wave or Nasty Plot, in which case it can pass back to Voodoom. Encore not only helps Togekiss, but it helps Togekiss help Voodoom. Encore would only be near Brokeness if we gave Voodoom Swords Dance or something like that. So Encore for Allowed

Calm Mind, however, deserves no place on Voodoom. One of the more important relationships between Voodoom and Togekiss is Togekiss' ability to pass NP boosts, allowing Voodoom to sweep. If given Calm Mind, Voodoom does not need any help sweeping. Both its speed and Special Attack are higher than those of Jirachi, who is an accomplished CM Sweeper. Voodoom also has much better STABs. This is not the direction we should be going. So Calm Mind for disallowed.
 
I think that Baton Pass, Agility, Substitute, and Calm Mind should all be allowed. With these four moves, the Baton Pass DoomKiss plan works extremely well.

I believe that Bulk Up should be disallowed, due to it creating, with the four above moves, an semi-ultimate passer.

I agree with entry hazards for disallowed.
 

firecape

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I think that Baton Pass, Agility, Substitute, and Calm Mind should all be allowed. With these four moves, the Baton Pass DoomKiss plan works extremely well.

I believe that Bulk Up should be disallowed, due to it creating, with the four above moves, an semi-ultimate passer.

I agree with entry hazards for disallowed.
Ok, why would you want to allow Agility? The whole reason we don't have Motor Drive was that we agreed Voodoom needed to be revenged by faster things like Starmie. Agility goes against this, and makes CAP11 impossible to outspeed! Calm Mind would be extremely dangerous on this Pokemon, as it could no longer be conquered by bulky Water-types, which we decided was crucial in the "counters" thread. I agree on Subtitute and Baton Pass, however, but think Bulk Up should be allowed. Bulk Up, unlike Calm Mind, works off Voodoom's much weaker Attack stat, and raises its Defense, not Special Defense. Most of the Pokemon aiming to counter or check Voodoom are specially based (Starmie, Vaporeon, Suicune, ect.), so it Bulk Up would not affect this much (Heracross still does a ton with Close Combat anyways). In addition, Bulk Up adds to Togekiss' longevity more then Calm Mind. Togekiss already has really good Special Defense, but it falls to strong physical attacks. A Bulk Up pass could help remedy this, and if you manage to pull of a Baton Pass in this metagame, you deserve to have those boosts. Lastly, I agree that entry hazards in all forms should be disallowed.
 
I've been following this project for quite a while (more participant in the other CAPs, but I was out of town when this one started =/) so I feel like I can help a little bit here.

I would like to push for Will-O-Wisp to be Allowed on Voodoom (nice job on the design btw, Doug). One of Togekiss' biggest problems is Tyranitar, and Voodoom can easily handle it by not only taking all of its attacks bar the strange, random Aerial Ace, but being able to either take hits back or cripple it with a burn. It also comes in handy against other Pokemon Togekiss can't handle and do cause problems for Voodoom in general, like Gyarados (I honestly doubt -1 Stone Edge from a subpar attack stat is going to do much unless its the Offensive Life Orb whih dies to a Shinx's Spark), Electivire (unless Togekiss is running Body Slam, Electivire can be a problem for this combo, especially if a Motor Drive boost kicks in), Machamp (just watch out for Guts, but Dynamicpunch rips into both Togekiss and Voodoom), and a whole other host of Pokemon.
 
I think Bulk Up would be fine as long as Voodoom doesn't get some form of recovery outside of Rest (even then, there's 4MSS), and MixKiss would be able to make work out of the Bulk Up if we give Voodoom Baton Pass.

Disallow All Entry Hazards. As something that may potentially learn Taunt, a Spiker would be too popular. I think it's agreed that Voodoom should not be a suicide lead.

Rapid Spin is an interesting case. On one hand, removing SR from the field greatly helps Togekiss. On the other hand, it's a little too good at dealing with Spinblockers thanks to Dark Stab. For now, I would say allow Rapid Spin.

Switcheroo/Trick for disallowed. Tricking a Scarf onto Bulky Waters makes them easy set up bait for other sweepers, and I think we want this thing to not be able to deal with Water types in any way possible.
 
Obviously not the most knowledgeable on this, but they're in the competitive list so I figure I'm justified throwing them into the ring:

Fake Tears - Can force switches in the face of a powerful special attacker like Voodoom, gives Kiss a good chance to get in on the switch.

Confuse Ray - I've honestly never understood why C-Ray hasn't seen more use as a switch-forcer. Sort of the same as the above, Voodoom confuses a counter on the switch-in, when the counter doesn't want to resist hitting itself it switches out, again giving Kiss a free switch-in. (of course, Confuse Ray and Nasty Plot together would give Doom a great opportunity for free set-up, so those two probably shouldn't be able to go together....

Eh. Just my two cents. Plan to use one or the other of the two moves in my moveset submission as flavor, so would be good to know whether they're allowed or not so I don't get blocked on a technicality. There's not too much reason to disallow because they're very unlikely to be gamebreaking, so I'd say to Allow them.
 
Bulk Up: ALLOW

Let's be honest here. Bulk Up just isn't all that viable in this metagame. This is because, most of the time, the Bulk Up user won't get a satisfactory return for two turns after Bulk Up is used. Bulk Up in particular got a very disadvantageous deal compared to the two other offensive +1/+1 moves, Dragon Dance and Calm Mind. Both of Dragon Dance's boosts help the physical sweeping capability of the user. In addition, despite Blissey's existence in the OU environment, special attacks in general are very dangerous compared to physical moves, what with Pokémon like Heatran, Starmie and Mixed Infernape at the top of OU. We all know how Calm Mind users like Suicune and the late Latias are much more effective than their Bulk Up counterparts Breloom, Machamp, Floatzel (probably the most relevant to Voodoom tbh), etc.

Bulk Up seems incredibly appealing on Voodoom due to Close Combat being its most powerful move. However, consider that physical Voodoom is still stuck with an 80 base power secondary STAB. The specially defensive threat list is dominated by a Normal type, which is weak against Fighting. The physically defensive threat list is much more varied, with Hippowdon, Celebi, Bronzong, etc. walling Close Combat through sheer bulk or a resistance (Celebi takes +1 Crunch pretty well), and even Skarmory has Brave Bird to leave Voodoom very vulnerable to a revenge kill, if not outright win through prediction. The fact that Voodoom's secondary STAB has 80 base power off of 85 base Attack doesn't help matters here.

The final argument that I want to address is that Bulk Up doesn't help the concept. However, that only really matters if a Bulk Up set becomes the standard, which as mentioned I don't really see happening. People tell doomsday stories based on other CAPs, but they forget that the perceived failures of the previous four CAPs (OK maybe not Cyclohm) came from their awesome alternative abilities (who gave Krilowatt Magic Guard seriously) or a defensive support move. Bulk Up is neither of these, and it may even help Togekiss defensively if Voodoom can get Baton Pass. Let's not compromise the Type-Move restriction system with doomsday tales.

Taunt: ALLOW

This I admittedly found harder to justify because of its ability to screw up Suicune and Vaporeon. However, one should note that, by running Taunt, Voodoom WILL be walled by at least two Pokémon. When Voodoom has to choose between Close Combat / Hidden Power Flying / Ice Beam (HP Ice?) / Taunt, I'd say that sort of beating Suicune and Vaporeon is a fair trade for being walled by two of Blissey, Heracross, Dragonite or Zapdos, all of which greatly threaten the core.

Thunder Wave: ALLOW

I think that the only argument for disallowing this so far is that Togekiss already has it...? Whatever, anything that relaxes Togekiss's 4MSS is a good thing.

EDIT: Now that there's an actual argument against this, I'd like to address it. Unfortunately for Voodoom, Thunder Wave, despite being yet another option to possibly beat its counters, is still competing with several very appealing moves for a moveslot (see above). This seems safe to me.

Mean Look: DISALLOW

I don't have much of an opinion on Baton Pass yet, but I do understand that it has a lot of support, so I'd rather avoid potential controversy later by calling for Mean Look to be disallowed. As people have said here and on IRC, Mean Look + Baton Pass isn't that broken on a slow Pokémon like Umbreon, but it probably will be broken on a fast Pokémon like Voodoom.

EDIT:
Agility: ALLOW

I'm removing Agility from my disallow list due to Jibaku's messages about it on IRC. It's been demonstrated that using a setup move "just" to 2HKO "everything" is rarely all that effective. (Just ask Agility Dragonite. It sucks!) It's true that +2 Voodoom reaches 700 Speed, the fastest "commonly" seen Speed in the game other than Scarf Deoxys-S, which is quite worrisome. At the end of the day, though, Agility doesn't really help against the bulky counters to Voodoom, which is exactly what we want. The big thing here is that it must expend a turn to use Agility.

Other offensive boosting moves: DISALLOW

Well, maybe singular +1 boosts won't be so bad, but I'd rather just keep it simple and disallow all moves that boost Atk, SpA and Spe except Bulk Up. Jibaku has put quite nicely why Calm Mind shouldn't be allowed, and his argument really highlights just how dangerous special attacks are in this metagame. If Blissey can't take two Aura Spheres, that's a VERY bad sign for other defensive threats. Agility is also rather dangerous, making revenge killing Voodoom incredibly difficult. Finally, I may be supporting Bulk Up, but Swords Dance is seriously pushing it due to the one-turn-duration positive return among other things. All of these boosts are simply too dangerous.

Reliable recovery moves: DISALLOW

By "reliable", I DO NOT mean Morning Sun / Synthesis / Moonlight, Pain Split or Rest. Whether Voodoom ends up getting Bulk Up / Taunt or not, reliable recovery moves give Voodoom a potent weapon of longevity against all of its potential checks, and bulky Waters in particular. The very ability to heal alongside these threats seems too dangerous and capable of tipping the scales without any really significant disadvantage. Even if it needs Bulk Up or Taunt to be "too good", I'd rather give Voodoom those moves than a reliable recovery move.

Entry hazards: DISALLOW

Any fast Pokémon with Taunt is a potentially good lead. Machamp seems to be the only real threat, and Voodoom can still get Stealth Rock up on it. Again, I'd much rather give Voodoom Taunt than entry hazards.

EDIT: Additional moves added

Baton Pass: ALLOW

Apparently, people like to hype Bulk Up a lot, and Baton Pass is another argument against it. Like I said in three paragraphs before, Bulk Up just isn't that great, and an attempt to Baton Pass it is even less great. Gliscor seems like a much better Atk/Spe passer to me.

Encore: DISALLOW

Taunt I can live with, but Encore I think is pushing it. I would definitely argue that Encore is superior to Taunt in a majority of situations, locking opponents into undesirable moves instead of merely forcing them to attack. Encore is also more far-reaching than Taunt is, being quite effective against just about every opponent.

Fake Tears: DISALLOW

The thing about Voodoom's counters is that they rely on their staying power to beat Voodoom. Fake Tears completely disrupts that plan. The fact that it gives Voodoom an advantage against Dragonite without even an Ice-type move is telling. (Yeah, this also means that you're definitely not convincing me that Nasty Plot will be fine on Voodoom!)

Rapid Spin: DISALLOW

Yeah, I get that Rapid Spin will probably not make it onto the standard attacker set, and that Colossoil doesn't use Rapid Spin, but a Dark-type Rapid Spinner in rather straying from the concept, unlike Rapid Spin Colossoil. I'd rather not have fall-back utility sets that people use if the standard attacker doesn't turn out to be good enough or something.

Switcheroo / Trick: ALLOW

Trick Scarf is definitely annoying, but would it really be superior to a Life Orb attacker? I don't see it.
 

Focus

Ubers Tester Extraordinaire
I fully agree with firecape01. Stat-up moves are generally too dangerous to be used by Voodoom. They defeat the purpose of CAP11 by turning Togekiss' perfect mate into a stand-alone sweeper.

Agility is a bad idea, as it will make it quite tough to revenge kill. It also makes a sweeper set with its great STAB moves even more tempting. Sure, Togekiss may appreciate the boost with Baton Pass, but it is just too useful for Voodoom.

Swords Dance/Nasty Plot are similarly useful, but I get the feeling that Voodoom should need to rely on Togekiss more. If you are desperate for a sweep, you should rely more on Togekiss' NP, not Voodoom's.

Entry Hazards are off-topic to CAP11 and don't do much but to give it another role to abuse.

Rapid Spin is an interesting option. I think it should be allowed due to Togekiss despising Stealth Rock. Switching in on (Toxic) Spikes means taking damage/poison that can be cured by Togekiss through Wish or Heal Bell, respectively.

Thunder Wave should be allowed, as it disables Zapdos and Gyarados (without lum berry) and makes switching to Togekiss safer.

This is my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Agility: Allow
Voodoom's base 105 Sp.A stat is good but not great, and will only sweep entire teams after a Nasty Plot boost or two. Agility will only be used to prevent revege kills on sets that rely on being Nasty Passed, and Togekiss is a prominent Nasty Passer in OU. This could generate more Togekiss synergy.

Glare: Allow
Togekiss loves paralysis support (especially since it needs to flinch foes and Roost before ice/electric attacks), so Voodoom providing it would be nice. In addition, Jolteon and Electivire can be paralyzed by Glare, and who will risk switching in a ghost against Voodoom (if Glare doesn't work on them, I think it might)? Electivire also destroys the duo if it gets a Motor Drive boost by using Cross Chop/Thunderbolt, which Glare will not provide. Togekiss doesn't usually run T-Wave on the Nasty Plot sweeper set, so Glare could make up for this.

Specific boosting moves besides Bulk Up and Agility: Disallow
Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and the like will just make Voodoom too powerful and less reliant on Togekiss passing Nasty Plots. If Voodoom gets these moves, Baton Pass should be disallowed because pretty much only Agility boosts will be passed to Togekiss (Voodoom will likely use Nasty Plots for himself). Accupressure? Okay, fine, but as a not-so-frail mixed sweeper Voodoom can actually use it better then most. It still will probably be used for flavour, though.

Entry Hazards: Disallow
Some of Togekiss's most threatening counters are immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes (Zapdos, Rotom-A), and they would make for a great lead set, especially if Voodoom get's Taunt. We don't really need this, and Steath Rock really only helps against Dragonite and Zapdos. We do not want to create a generic lead that dies early either.
 
Memento: Allow. It probably won't be used anyway.

Glare / Body Slam: Allow to paralyze those immune to T-Wave.

Acupressure: Didn't realize this was a competitive move, so allow, albeit risky.

Fake Out: Allow for stopping Spikes leads early on.

Knock Off: Allow for additional disruption, because Lefties means more Substitutes that 'Kiss hates.

Baton Pass: Allow, so boosts won't be lost if Voodoom doesn't want to stay in.

Bulk Up: Allow; it can open up new doors for 'Kiss when Passed. It WOULD make him useful on his own, but not as bad as it would be if he got NP or Swords Dance, and there's still 4MSS getting in the way.

Agility: Allow. 'Doom doesn't need it himself, but 'Kiss would love the Pass. However, between one with T-Wave & the other with Glare/Body Slam, it probably won't be as necessary.

Imprison: Allow; it'll keep opposing Focus Blasts & Aura Spheres from nuking him.

Calm Mind: Dissallow; it's not as fast as NP, but it still lets it not need 'Kiss for Sp.Atk boosts (bar a lucky Acupressure), so it's an obvious decision.

Entry hazards: Disallow; it'll nuke the concept by making lead 'Dooms more favorable, as well as give bulky Waters problems.

Destiny Bond: Allow as a last-ditch effort on something. Probably won't be used anyway.

Safeguard: Allow to keep Toxic out of the way, although 'Kiss has Heal Bell (and its own Safeguard) for that.

Switcheroo / Trick: Disallow, for similar reasons to entry hazards.

Recovery moves (bar Rest): Disallow; we should force Wish Passing from 'Kiss as far as healing.

Confuse Ray / Teeter Dance: Allow; makes Paraflinchax even more annoying.

Taunt: Allow. On one hand, it screws with bulky Waters quite a bit; on the other hand, 'Kiss hates SR & Subs.




Ok, think I covered it all.......
 
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