Ditto

[Sandstreamer]

Using Transform isn't always the worse option.
e.g. one player uses Transform, the other one switches to let's say Blissey.
The player choosing Transform gets to scout Blisseys entire moveset, which can prove to be pivotal (does it carry seismic toss or ice beam or maybe even another damaging move? is it a pure support variant? does it carry toxic or t-wave? etc.)

Still, you can always just switch in a pokemon you consider a good Ditto counter (including the risk of letting the opponent know about its set). And if you do not have such a pokemon, it's your fault. After all, it's kinda like when two Trickscarfers meet: Of course, the first to switch out risks getting something scarfed, but then again, he can just switch in a sweeper that doesn't mind. The only exception would be that Trickscarf duels cannot be longer than 32 rounds (afaik), but I've never seen one with more than 3 rounds tbh.
And if people WANT to spend all day facing each other in a pokemon battle, there are some other options to force situations with limitless PP.

 

[Lauke]

Still, you can always just switch in a pokemon you consider a good Ditto counter (including the risk of letting the opponent know about its set). And if you do not have such a pokemon, it's your fault. After all, it's kinda like when two Trickscarfers meet: Of course, the first to switch out risks getting something scarfed, but then again, he can just switch in a sweeper that doesn't mind. The only exception would be that Trickscarf duels cannot be longer than 32 rounds (afaik), but I've never seen one with more than 3 rounds tbh.
And if people WANT to spend all day facing each other in a pokemon battle, there are some other options to force situations with limitless PP.

You got a very good point there, but there are 2 important differences between 2 trickscarfers meeting eachother and 2 ditto leads (or 2 ditto getting switch in against eachother after both player's pokemon were KO'd on the same turn)

1)The event of 2 trickscarfers facing eachother is much less likely to occur than 2 untransformed Ditto (Ditto makes an amazing lead tbh (scouting lead's moveset is awesome), not to mention MANY teams will have a Ditto and like I said before the event isn't restricted to lead Ditto only)

2)One or both players will have to switch eventually; the one who didn't switch but used transform instead will almost always have the advantage (scouting and getting to choose his best counter against the scouted moveset), so one of the players will be forced to switch (if he doesn't like endless battles ..) while knowing he is very likely to be in a disadvantage.

EDIT: Now i come to think of it, not only can you scout the moveset, you get to scout the ability aswell, which could prove to be very valuable information since the huge rise in diversity of viable abilities (knowing it's a flash fire or a shadow tag Shanderaa etc.) Another nifty little thing which makes ditto a good lead will be to spot if the opponent is actually an illusion (Zoraork) or not, since (I'm assuming) you will transform into Zoroark (Zoroark will make a nice surprise lead)

 

[XenoIncognito]

you could always just switch in a pokemon that another team member absolutely destroys or can easily set up on...an easy and extreme example is having, say, *steel type* and magnezone on your team.

This has been suggested quite a lot, and is one of the reasons why Shed Shell might be just as good an item as Choice Scarf on Ditto.

 

[Lauke]

you could always just switch in a pokemon that another team member absolutely destroys or can easily set up on...an easy and extreme example is having, say, *steel type* and magnezone on your team.

So let's sketch how the situation would look like in that particular instance:

Player1: Switches to Skarmory
Player2: Uses Transform (transforms into Skarmory)

Player1: Switches to Magnezone
Player2: (having scouted the moveset and ability) Switches to pokemon X

Okay let's see who is at an advantage at this point.
Player1 just showed 3 members of his team
Player2 knows exactly which moveset and ability one of the opponent's pokemon has
Player2 only showed 2 of his pokemon

Clearly Player2 is at an advantage.

 

[DriggerEX]

The Fact That Ditto Can Auto transform isnt all that glorious. Unless it is used late game I fail to see the effectiveness of the Scarfed Ditto. Major Weakness He is Stuck on 1 move... It's like putting Scarftrans against each other. all you need to do is to switch in someone who resits or is immune to the attack. while ditto is stuck grab a quick boost yourself and continue your sweep otherwise. it would be an extremely annoying pokemon because of the constant switch ins if Essintric acts like Trace. but due to Choise to elliminate the speed Scarf you will find yourself loosing HP on other pokes due to the constant switching. because of the oh to prevelant Stealth Rocks and Toxic Spikes/Spikes etc

 

[Purimpopoie]

Someone mentioned that in the case of ditto (untransformed) vs ditto (untransformed) there would only be one eccentric proc from both ditto. If this really is the case it would mean both players get the choice between: 1) use the move transform 2) switch to another pokemon. One can easily guess which of the choices is more likely to be chosen by both trainers, namely use the move transform. this would lead to an endless cycle of using transform (you will have endless PP because you get 5 transform PPs every time you transform in the opponents ditto), until one of the trainers gives up and switches to another pokemon.

I'm pretty sure this won't happen, since I'm almost 100% sure that Transform fails if your species = the target Species. Or something.

I just know that Ditto couldn't transform into Ditto in RSE.

 

[Lauke]

I really hope that's true. Although it isn't stated on the smogon move page:
Transform: Transforms into the target, copying its stats (except HP), moves (at 5 PP each), type, weight, and ability. The stats are copied exactly, without regard to EVs, IVs, and level. IVs of the target are copied for purposes of Hidden Power, as well. Transform copies the target's species, which means that DeapSeaScale, DeepSeaTooth, Light Ball, Metal Powder, Quick Powder, Soul Dew, and Thick Club activate only if the target is the correct species. Level is not copied, so a low level Pokemon does less damage than a high level Pokemon when using the same move (because the attacker's level is part of the damage formula).

Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Choice Specs keep their boost upon Transforming. The Transforming Pokemon is allowed to select a new move.

If a Pokemon Transforms into Giratina-O, it will instantly revert to the altered forme of Giratina, as it is not holding the Griseous Orb item.

They should add that you can't Transform in your own species, if your information turns out to be valid. (fingers crossed!)


EDIT: Upon rereading the description the mention of Quick Powder drew my attention, it says: "[...]which means that Quick Powder activates only if the target is the correct species", which implies ditto should be able to transform into it's own species (i.e. Ditto).

 

[Wilyweavile]

Pardon me if this was already brought up, I don't think I saw it but as there was 11 pages I skimmed a fair amount of the thread. As of Gen IV transform copies the actual stats of the target, with the exception of HP, all species information (making quick powder and metal powder stop working) and more importanly all stat changes to the foe. So bringing an eccentric ditto into a boosted Mence, T-Tar etc will net you all their hardwork instantly making for a potentially interesting "counter" if played correctly.

 

[Wilyweavile]

edit: dang being at work slowed me down so Lauke beat me to the punch...

 

[hotdogturtle]

Pardon me if this was already brought up, I don't think I saw it but as there was 11 pages I skimmed a fair amount of the thread. As of Gen IV transform copies the actual stats of the target, with the exception of HP, all species information (making quick powder and metal powder stop working) and more importanly all stat changes to the foe. So bringing an eccentric ditto into a boosted Mence, T-Tar etc will net you all their hardwork instantly making for a potentially interesting "counter" if played correctly.

...That's what this entire thread is about.

 

[Kefky]

Ditto Clause: If in a double switch Ditto vs Ditto occurs, both players should switch Pokémon. If it happens after a double KO and Ditto is both player's last Pokémon, the match ends with a Draw.

 

[Annhialator Zero]

Thought of a fairly cool partner. Gallade/Gardevoir. Only Pokemon in the game to get Encore and Mean Look. Trap an opposition booster, Encore them. Switch to Ditto once your opponent is raised high enough for your liking. Also spamming Close Combat would lure out Candlemon nicely. Might be hard to set up.

 

[Wilyweavile]

...That's what this entire thread is about.

*sigh* I apologize... what a fail first post

 

[PommyDragon2525]

Ditto Clause: If in a double switch Ditto vs Ditto occurs, both players should switch Pokémon. If it happens after a double KO and Ditto is both player's last Pokémon, the match ends with a Draw.

or, both players use transform untill you run out if pp, then use struggle untill one dies. It becomes "Who put the extra EV's where?"

 

[Kefky]

The thing is that they'll keep Transforming and getting 5 PP, so that will never happen.

 

[the_artic_one]

according to bulbapedia:

Transform can only be used by the first Pokémon that uses it. If another Pokémon attempts to transform afterwards, the attack will fail.

 

[Wilyweavile]

so basically who ever is faster would be struggling long before the other ditto in that situation because they would be stuck at 5pp while the opponent would have 10?

 

[PommyDragon2525]

according to bulbapedia:

Transform can only be used by the first Pokémon that uses it. If another Pokémon attempts to transform afterwards, the attack will fail.

exactly, so a struggle battle can occur!

just imagine the mild shame after a great epic battle it comes down to whose ditto can struggle the other to death. So anit-climactic.

 

[backlot]

The thing is that they'll keep Transforming and getting 5 PP, so that will never happen.

Other people in this thread have said that transform fails when the user is the same species as the target so that wouldn't happen.

Edit: Oops, I was too late. Anyway, I don't think a clause will be necessary.

 

[Lauke]

If Bulbapedia is correct (I highly doubt they already tested stuff like that in the actual b/w nds games), this means everyone will be running a ditto with a speed boosting nature (it's the only instance where it's nature actually matters anyway) and 252 speed EVS, making it a speed tie, so you will have 50% chance to be able to use transform (and by doing so getting 5 PPs) and 50% chance to fail your attack, so the chance to actually get one of the two ditto to struggle in this particular situation is at most 0.5^6 (you win the first speed tie and therefor get 5 tranform PPs, then you lose the next 5 speed ties).
You get the point, fights like this will be ridiculous.

EDIT: Actually it's more beneficial to run a speed hindering nature, anyway the chances to get it to struggle stay the same as explained above.

 

[kukki-sama]

Wow, this would be such an awesome revenge killer. I've got to look into this a bit more though but so much you can do with this.

 

[milotic111]

If Bulbapedia is correct (I highly doubt they already tested stuff like that in the actual b/w nds games), this means everyone will be running a ditto with a speed boosting nature (it's the only instance where it's nature actually matters" anyway) and 252 speed EVS, making it a speed tie, so you will have 50% chance to be able to use transform (and by doing so getting 5 PPs) and 50% chance to fail your attack, so the chance to actually get one of the two ditto to struggle in this particular situation is at most 0.5^6 (you win the first speed tie and therefor get 5 tranform PPs, then you lose the next 5 speed ties).
You get the point, fights like this will be ridiculous.

Or you just switch out to something that doesn't mind facing a transformed ditto. A wall or something, that can set up bulky calm minds. Even if ditto get's in later, it still has to KO your calm-minder with a +6 sp.attack versus +6 sp.def. Facture in that walls have more hp then ditto (they actually invest in it), and the wall wins in the end, and can proceed to sweep further.

Point is, ditto doesn't work to well against bulky set-uppers.

 

[Epic Cherubi]

Point is, ditto doesn't work to well against bulky set-uppers.

So?

He can take on just about everything else.

 

[Lauke]

We already discussed the switching to another pokemon, and in the end, the one switching will be at disadvantage. I refer to my earlier posts and the replies on them.

 

[milotic111]

So?

He can take on just about everything else.

I know, but you where all saying that ditto vs ditto leaves the one switching out at a disadvantage. With this example I say otherwise.

EDIT: By wich I mean ditto can't hit trough bulk-up, calm-mind and curse. In a ditto vs ditto situation switching out to such a set-up pokemon gives you free set-up ditto can't counter. It can't set up on par, and +6 (sp)att against +6 (sp)def is still a normal hit, wich such a pokemon should be able to take with easy.