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Eviolite
- Thread starter Garganator
- Start date
Sandstorm shouldn't be too big an issue if Dream World Vulpix and Poliwag hit the scene fast enough.
Most of the Pokemon who use this have recovery moves anyway, though: Pain Split Misdreavus, Pain Split Dusclops, Recover Porygon2, Roost Scyther, Roost Gligar... Magneton wishes it could get Light Clay screen length while keeping this item, though, and Munchlax wishes it had Slack Off right about now.
Actually, speaking of Slack Off, Vigoroth could be a pretty nice UU Encore or Counter user with this item due to only one weakness. Nobody's mentioned that one yet.
Another one: Tangela is faster than Tangrowth while keeping Leech Seed and Regeneration from the Dream World, still has a decent base 100 Special Attack, and can reach 334 HP, 400 Defense, and 294 Special Defense with a Calm nature and 252/4/242 EVs in those stats. Or go Bold and get 439 Defense with 268 Special Defense, still good against non-super-effective special hits. Alternatively, have it specialize completely on the physical side at 334 HP and 541 Defense with only 175 Special Defense and just hope it never gets hit on the special front.
Edit: By comparison, Skarmory has 334 HP with up to 416 Defense (not often that high) and 176 Special Defense. Of course, Skarmory has Roost and a load of resistances, but Tangela doesn't care about Magnezone and can heal without even needing a turn.
+2 Adamant Dragon Claw Life Orb Rayquaza vs 252 HP/252 Def +1 Def (Thanks to Stone) Bold Porygon2
57.22% --> 67.65%
+1 Adamant Outrage Life Orb Rayquaza vs 252 HP/252 Def +1 Def (Thanks to Stone) Bold Porygon2
64.17% --> 75.67%
How is +2 ray doing less than +1?
57.22% --> 67.65%
+1 Adamant Outrage Life Orb Rayquaza vs 252 HP/252 Def +1 Def (Thanks to Stone) Bold Porygon2
64.17% --> 75.67%
How is +2 ray doing less than +1?
It should be noted that Dragonair's Dream World Ability is Marvel Scale (Milotic's original). So maybe:
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Dragon Tail
-Thunder Wave/Toxic
I was thinking Dragon Dance could be used for the last slot for the attack boost to make a wannabe Gyarados.
How does Sleep Talk work with negative priorities anyways? I never checked that.
Dragon Claw:
80 BP x 1.5 (STAB) x 2 (+2 boost) = 240 BP
Outrage:
120BP x 1.5 (STAB) x 1.5 (+1 boost) = 270 BP
It overrides negative priority. So if sleep talk picks Dragon Tail, it will fire at 0 priority instead of -6.
sleep talk ignores negative priority, however since sleep talk isn't a TM you can no longer run that set
SD sets run Dragon Claw, DD run Outrage. Outrage ha 40 more BP.
If the defense boost is +1 as suggested, Gligar is monstrous. Great defensive typing and a 508 defense stats, surpassing Cloyster and Deoxys-D. Chansey also becomes more specially bulky than Blissey.
I think people are forgetting that resistances are more important than numbers. So while Porygon2's defenses are extremely high, Nuttre is still the better wall because he has very big numbers AND 12 resistances + a more useful immunity thanks to the prevalence of Toxic and Toxic Spikes. Not to mention he can run Leftovers since he doesn't need an item to boost his defenses. And while I haven't run any calcs, I'm sure Tesshiido (Nuttre's prevo), will make much better use of the Prevo Stone than P2 when it comes to pure walling.
Now if you want a tank, then P2 may be the better route thanks to good coverage moves, high special attack, and Analyze, although Nuttre's offensive capabilities shouldn't be overlooked.
I see this being more useful in UU and LC than OU since Skarmory, Hippowdon, Blissey (w/ lefties), Forretress, and now Nuttre are very stiff competition. Also, as someone said earlier, sweepers with alright defenses like Scyther make pretty good use of this as well.
Now if you want a tank, then P2 may be the better route thanks to good coverage moves, high special attack, and Analyze, although Nuttre's offensive capabilities shouldn't be overlooked.
I see this being more useful in UU and LC than OU since Skarmory, Hippowdon, Blissey (w/ lefties), Forretress, and now Nuttre are very stiff competition. Also, as someone said earlier, sweepers with alright defenses like Scyther make pretty good use of this as well.
No but you can trade a Sleep Talk Dragonair over and tm it Dragon Tail so that set is still very possible. =P
I wouldnt use Leftovers on Nuttre, Ghost/Fire @ Arena trap and also Magnezone really rape it. Shed Shell seems alot better.
I love this item really though truth be told, it gives a big middle finger to alot of these overpowerful threats lol
I'm ridiculously sure pokemon.com (or was it pokemon.co.jp?) has stated Phione is a legendary.
And when you look at its backstory a bit further, you realize it really is. It's a mutated Manaphy, after all.
Oops. Looks like I forgot to check WHICH MOVE ray uses. Thanks for pointing that out.
Not with the Dream World ability though. Not having Marvel Scale makes Sleep Talk kinda pointless.
Man, Porygon2 already was better than Porygon-Z in Gen IV. And now they made it even better... I feel kinda sad for Porygon-Z.
252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SDef Careful Dusclops vs. 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD Bold Porygon2
Modest 252SpA +1 LO Draco Meteor Salamence:
Dusclops 68.7% - 80.6%
Porygon2 77.3% - 91.4%
252 HP Skarmory 87.1% - 102.4%
Adamant 252Atk +1 LO Outrage Salamence:
Dusclops 71.1% - 83.8%
Porygon2 61.2% - 72.2%
252HP / 252Def Bold Blissey 146.2% - 172%
With Dusclops taking Special Attacks better than Porygon2 and Porygon2 taking Physical Attacks better, these two can be used together in tandem for a great defensive core. Porygon2's only weakness being Fighting, with Dusclops being immune to Fighting. Dusclops weaknesses are Ghost and Dark, Porygon2 being immune to Ghost and neutral to Dark.
This combo even outclasses the SkarmBliss combo surviving both Physical and Special Attacks instead of relying on a partner. Both of the SkarmBliss combo are abliterated by either Salamence, unlike the new Poryclops combo.
If you add a Heart of Justice user in tandem with this like:
Absol (Weakness to Fighting and Bug which are handled by Dusclops and resisting Dark types)
Lucario (Weakness to Ground, Fire and Fighting which are handled by both and a x4 resistance to Dark)
Gallade (Weak to Flying Ghost which are handled by Porygon2)
You could provide chances for a set up coming in off a Dark move and when they switch out stat up, sweeping entire teams
Modest 252SpA +1 LO Draco Meteor Salamence:
Dusclops 68.7% - 80.6%
Porygon2 77.3% - 91.4%
252 HP Skarmory 87.1% - 102.4%
Adamant 252Atk +1 LO Outrage Salamence:
Dusclops 71.1% - 83.8%
Porygon2 61.2% - 72.2%
252HP / 252Def Bold Blissey 146.2% - 172%
With Dusclops taking Special Attacks better than Porygon2 and Porygon2 taking Physical Attacks better, these two can be used together in tandem for a great defensive core. Porygon2's only weakness being Fighting, with Dusclops being immune to Fighting. Dusclops weaknesses are Ghost and Dark, Porygon2 being immune to Ghost and neutral to Dark.
This combo even outclasses the SkarmBliss combo surviving both Physical and Special Attacks instead of relying on a partner. Both of the SkarmBliss combo are abliterated by either Salamence, unlike the new Poryclops combo.
If you add a Heart of Justice user in tandem with this like:
Absol (Weakness to Fighting and Bug which are handled by Dusclops and resisting Dark types)
Lucario (Weakness to Ground, Fire and Fighting which are handled by both and a x4 resistance to Dark)
Gallade (Weak to Flying Ghost which are handled by Porygon2)
You could provide chances for a set up coming in off a Dark move and when they switch out stat up, sweeping entire teams
I'm well aware of that as I certainly plan on using Shed Shell, but I was simply saying he can use leftovers while still having massive defenses, whereas Porygon2 cannot, at least not if he wants those defenses.
Both Porygon2 and Dusclops are still 2hko'd by either one of those attacks. It doesn't seem like they could really do much in terms of countering Salamence.
Wtf. We won't have to deal with Shadow Tag Shanderaa until Gamefreak puts him in the Dream World, which may take a while and even longer to implement. Magnezone shouldn't be running HP Fire with the possibility of Latias, Sazando, Ononokusu, and Garchomp. Not to mention, you need Choice Specs to OHKO with HP Fire, which means Nattorei gets another layer of hazards up.
Im not saying they counter Salamence. Im just proving a point that they can withstand such powerful moves off of Salamence. However Pain Split Dusknoir could give Salamence some trouble and trace Porygon2 can lower Salamence's attack. So they can both annoy Salamence.
Why would Salamence have a +1 boost when using Draco Meteor or when using any physical move against Porygon2?
Judging by what I'm reading here, I think Knock Off will be a pretty popular move this Generation. At least one user to a team.
Or maybe I'm overreacting.
Or maybe I'm overreacting.
Perhaps, perhaps not. It shouldn't be too difficult to tell what Pokemon might run it, and to keep NFE walls away from it. If it's something with enough offensive power that you would actually want to switch the NFE walls in, chances are, it's not going to be using Knock Off anyway. Support moves and sweepers don't tend to mix.
Actually, Porygon2 can probably counter Salamence with this item. Seeing as Mence will never have +1 and LO in SpA, Draco Meteor won't 2HKO even 252/0 variants without hazards. This means Porygon2 can switch in on one DM and Recover while it survives the second at -2. For DD, it'll have to DD while Porygon2 switches in. P2 can survive one +1 LO Outrage, so it still beats Mence that way. Not a terribly bad counter, if you ask me.
EDIT: Porygon2 is also able to survive two consecutive Adamant LO Outrages easily, so that route won't work for Mence, either.
EDIT: Porygon2 is also able to survive two consecutive Adamant LO Outrages easily, so that route won't work for Mence, either.
Don't forget that Porygon2 has Trace, which will copy Intimidate and cancel the Dragon Dance's attack boost on the switch in. I'm pretty sure Outrage and Mence's Dream World ability are incompatible so he'll have to have Intimidate.
252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Salamence's Outrage vs.
252 HP/252 Def Bold Preev. Stone Porygon2: 39.6% - 46.8%
Sweeping just got a lot harder this generation, even ignoring the pre-evo stone.
With the Stealth Rock being diminished, and all the Sturdy Pokemon, not to mention stuff like Magic Guard Focus Sash Alakazam (who doesn't care at all about SR, even if manages to get set up) and Choice Scarf Ditto, revenge killing has never been easier. It seems like we'll just be trading KO's from here on out.