That's exactly what it is Tomaius. It's a Late game sweeper, nothing else. It needs the hard counters out the way before it can fully sweep. Pairing it with things to eliminate the counters, and vice versa is how he's going to be played in some ways. Pairing it with other dragons doesn't make for a bad combination either as it can reliably attack alongside Sazando, and then partner off with Heatran, or Shanderra.
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omg . After a Dragon Dance , this pokemon is *@$^(@^ .
A even more threat than Salamence and Garchomp (though it lacks fire attack)
but Taunt makes up for it . Who knows , this pokemon might just start as a lead .
Either Taunt or Dragon Dance sweep .
Anyway , who needs Fire Fang when you can force sweep with Dragon Tail ? =X
A even more threat than Salamence and Garchomp (though it lacks fire attack)
but Taunt makes up for it . Who knows , this pokemon might just start as a lead .
Either Taunt or Dragon Dance sweep .
Anyway , who needs Fire Fang when you can force sweep with Dragon Tail ? =X
It's not as much as a threat as Salamence or chomp,, even after a DD, and shouldn't be compared to the two.
Although it is a threat in some cases, and can be problematic if you dont have a counter for it(which shouldn't be too hard). But you do make a point that I've been ignoring for awhile: Dragon tail. I remember Ariakado mentioning it before as a way to force Skarmory out before it can whirlwind, and then never really gave it too much though after that. It could possibly help it in some situations, as well as scout the other team effectively.
Lol. Why so serious?
But really, Dragon + Dragon is always viable as long as you back them up. I wouldn't mind using Ono, and Mence together, or using Ono and Chomp. As long as it's with teammates that can help cover it's weakness, Ono will do fine as the Mid-Late game sweeper.
I agree that for the most part he is outclassed as a Set-up Sweeper by Mence and Chomp, mainly due to the unfortunate speed, but let's remember that these are the two Pokemon that broke 4th Gen OU. I wouldn't underestimate this beast.
He has several unique advantages. Dragon Tail could be great on with a CB, and also, as mentioned above lets it beat Skarmory who try to Whirlwind it. Taunt fulfills the same use, and also lets it decimate stall teams. In fact, I would argue that Ononokusu is much more effective against stall than most other dragons are, thanks to Taunt, Ridiculous Attack, Swords Dance, (which most Dragons lack), and no exploitable 4x weakness. It's still great against faster paced teams with DD and Scarf. I think this set could be monstrous if Scarfed dragons (read:Garchomp) become popular revengers.
Ononokusu @ Haban Berry
Adamant: 126 Hp/252 Atk/126 Spd (tweak as needed)
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Taunt/Dragon Tail/Dragon Claw/Swords Dance
DD as they switch in their Scarf Dragon, DD again as you survive with Haban Berry, then start rampaging as you kill the dragon and obliterate the rest of the team with +2 Atk/Spd. If they send out skarmory, use Taunt or Dragon Tail to continue your Set-up.
He has several unique advantages. Dragon Tail could be great on with a CB, and also, as mentioned above lets it beat Skarmory who try to Whirlwind it. Taunt fulfills the same use, and also lets it decimate stall teams. In fact, I would argue that Ononokusu is much more effective against stall than most other dragons are, thanks to Taunt, Ridiculous Attack, Swords Dance, (which most Dragons lack), and no exploitable 4x weakness. It's still great against faster paced teams with DD and Scarf. I think this set could be monstrous if Scarfed dragons (read:Garchomp) become popular revengers.
Ononokusu @ Haban Berry
Adamant: 126 Hp/252 Atk/126 Spd (tweak as needed)
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Taunt/Dragon Tail/Dragon Claw/Swords Dance
DD as they switch in their Scarf Dragon, DD again as you survive with Haban Berry, then start rampaging as you kill the dragon and obliterate the rest of the team with +2 Atk/Spd. If they send out skarmory, use Taunt or Dragon Tail to continue your Set-up.
I can see this set working, just a little bit slower then other Ono sets, which may not be as bad. Although, because it has less speed, IMO, i would take some EV's from attack and place it in some more defensive stats so it can make up for it's lack of speed. In the same case, I agree that Taunt, and Dragon Tail will make for great ways to deal with some of his checks. Skarmory wont do enough damage to to kill it before a Dragon Tail can get off.
Im actually starting to lean more towards EV'ing him to a more bulkier set as long as I reach around 280 or so spe in the process. That'll usually be enough to outspeed all counters after two DD's, and depending on the Atk EV's, can be enough to capatilize on his amazing attack stat. Gonna probably look mroe into Dragon Tail as well to make it an alternative to taunt on the bulky sets.
97 Speed is laughable for a Dragon-type. Everyone's focusing on that amazing Attack, but Salamence and Garchomp honestly hit a hell of a lot faster with a fairly small power difference. I know three more Speed points doesn't sound like much, but with the amount of base 100s floating around as well as the base 98 Sazando/base 99 Bug/Steel legendary, it's a much better number.
It can use 1 DD just fine o.0. With 2 it's even worse, so I dont understand how it wont be using DD just fine when you play it correctly?
Also, if you haven't seen the wifi 6v6 vid in the R.I.P Scouting, and such thread, this video actually had a showing of a Natto vs. Ono (although the Ono player messed up):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUSHOSN_ge4 (around 4:15)
The damage from Brick Break was huge against Natto after the DD, yet I can't seem to recreate the damage from that fight with a damage calc. Although the damage I did recieve showed that it could possibly 2HKO Natto after a DD with Brick Break (even with minimum atk if your running a bulkier set like I'll be trying). If anything it was pretty nice to see that, and maybe possibly change up the Gyro-ball problem.
The problem is, a single threat is forcing you to change your moveset completely. On top of that, now you have a slew of other Pokemon that can beat you. Metagross? Now Forretress takes even less, Scizor as well. It doesn't seem worth it, especially considering how weak Brick Break is.
BTW, I posted a calc of Gyro Ball against Jolly Ono without any boosts. With a Dragon Dance under its belt, Gyro Ball is a likely OHKO.
One quick point. Outrage EQ with aiming mark is unresistable. In that case im gonna say as a EQ, Outrage, filler, filler he is outclassed by chomp who actually wins to base 100 instead of losing or tying and his EQ STAB makes up for any loss in power. Salamence can actually attack specially (and very well to) + he is a base 100 (and better ability).
That's not how Aiming Mark works, though--it was tested in the research thread and found that Aiming Mark removes the holder's immunity's, and not the opponent's (it also only removes immunities that come from typing--it does not affect abilities like Levitate).
I wouldn't say it's changing my moveset, but I agree that some single threats just make it tough on it. Generally speaking, the taunt varient is probably the more profitable. In order to cover up his threats you'll need teammates that can deal with them. That'll be his only way of dealing with them unless he gets the 2 DD's required to kill some of them.
Lead, and Choice Band Meta cause the most problems since they'll take the EQ and counter with Meteor mash (which OHKO's if it's Choiced on the jolly sets) followed by BP to finish what's left. Not sure what my bulky varient can do after I tweaked the EV's somemore so I'll have to check.
Ono couldn't do enough damage to Forretress regardless of brick break, and wont change the amount of damage it can do with it. Scizor has always been a problem, and once again, didn't take much damage in the first place from Ono being whatever varient it is.
I saw the Calc on the jolly Ono so I understand that it has a good chance of a OHKO. Im more focused on my bulkier set who im pretty sure is only 2HKO'd by Gyro-Ball with or without boost.
While Salamence and Garchomp arguably have "better" sweeping potential, Ononokusu has one thing that both Mence and Chomp do not have. A 2x Ice weakness instead of 4x. Ononokusu learns both swords dance and dragon dance, which means that you have a lot more options on whether you want Ononokusu to be DD sweeper or a SD sweeper.
The 2x Ice weak instead of four seems to be a huge factor in ensuring Ononokusu's success, especially since he doesn't die to any random Ice move (unlike Mence and Chomp).
Damn am I the only one that thinks Ononokusu would be fabulous if it has a 600 BST instead of 540? Like Garchomp, Ononokusu would be pretty happy if he could just get enough speed to outspeed things like Base 100s.
The 2x Ice weak instead of four seems to be a huge factor in ensuring Ononokusu's success, especially since he doesn't die to any random Ice move (unlike Mence and Chomp).
Damn am I the only one that thinks Ononokusu would be fabulous if it has a 600 BST instead of 540? Like Garchomp, Ononokusu would be pretty happy if he could just get enough speed to outspeed things like Base 100s.
Good set. I wonder if Outrage could be replaced with Dragon Claw as an option, as well as the 4th move being Dragon Tail? This allows Ononokusu to avoid being locked in by Outrage (unless you're not locked in Outrage this gen), as well as preventing things like Cresselia and Skarmory from hindering your sweep.
You don't seem to realize that after one DD, Ononokuso is only outsped by base 98 and up scarfers, having 439 speed with +1 and adamant (483 with Jolly+1, but that'd be incredibly weak.). Scarf Sazando? Meet Steel Type. It's just going to work like chomp did, but with Taunt/Dragon Tail over Fire Blast. 439 speed with Adamant is still going to be fast, and Pokemon like Scarf Jirachi are just going to be set up bait for CM or maybe even subsplit shanduraa. The only possible counters would be Hippowdon and Cresselia. Look familiar? These are the same counters that Salamence had in OU. A major problem with Cresselia though is that it's trapped by both Tyranitar and Shanduraa, most notably Shanduraa, who is arguably one of ononokuso's greatest allies. That would leave Hippowdon, one of ononokuso's true counters.
Keep in mind that Ono can Taunt Cress and setup even more on it, unless it carries Ice Beam.
I still think this thing is way overhyped. Sure, 147 base Attack hits like a truck, but it doesn't have much else going for it. Unlike Chomp, it can't switch freely into Electric attacks, namely Thunder Waves. It also doesn't have the Sandstorm immunity and SR resistance, and 76/90/70 defenses makes it really quite frail. Its EQs will also lack quite a lot of power when compared to Chomp's. Unlike Mence, it doesn't have Intimidate and a Ground immunity/Fighting resistance to find a safe time to switch in, and also cannot run mixed to add in that versatility factor. What's it ever going to run if it's not Outrage/EQ/DD/Taunt?
A possible merit for SD Ononokusu over Dragon Dance is that a +2 Adamant LO Brick Break can OHKO Max/Max Impish Nattorei more than 50% of the time, with SR in play:
864 Atk vs 397 Def & 352 HP (75 Base Power): 306 - 360 (86.93% - 102.27%)
This becomes a 100% guarantee if you include a Rivalry boost, which I didn't because it is very situational. +2 LO Brick Break can 2HKO Max/Max Impish Skarmory 98% of the time with SR, provided that Skarmory isn't holding Leftovers (I think this is a fair assumption, as most will be running Shed Shell).
Of course, SD Ononokusu (Swords Dance/EQ/Outrage/Brick Break) is outclassed by Garchomp, but since its job is more wallbreaking than sweeping, you could invest EV's in HP to make it more durable.
864 Atk vs 397 Def & 352 HP (75 Base Power): 306 - 360 (86.93% - 102.27%)
This becomes a 100% guarantee if you include a Rivalry boost, which I didn't because it is very situational. +2 LO Brick Break can 2HKO Max/Max Impish Skarmory 98% of the time with SR, provided that Skarmory isn't holding Leftovers (I think this is a fair assumption, as most will be running Shed Shell).
Of course, SD Ononokusu (Swords Dance/EQ/Outrage/Brick Break) is outclassed by Garchomp, but since its job is more wallbreaking than sweeping, you could invest EV's in HP to make it more durable.
For the past few days this thread has gotten maybe one or two post at a time, MAX. If anything, there isn't anymore Ono hype regardless of the folks who refuse to come on the forums and see for themselves. It's also been stated several times as to what Ono doesn't have in comparison to mence, and chomp, and is just as annoying as the proclaimed Ono hype. Ono shouldn't be compared to the other two at all. And as if thunder wave has always been a problem from any setup sweeper, doesn't make it a downside for Ono since it's already understood what can hinder anyone not immune to it. To make note on electric attacks, most of them will not be doing an excellent amount of damage against Ono, even if hitting his weaker sp.Def side.
@Sithlord- Those calcs are nice Sith. Maybe SD Ono will have a much better chance against it's counters, and possibly attack more like the Late game sweeper/mid-game wallbreaker DD set. I agree that making on the bulkier side can help it even more, possiblely even prolong its life compared to the possibly standard DD Ono sets. IMO, im also not a fan of LO on Ono simply because it shortens is already small life-span in some cases, but it can be argued as a better item for sure with that SD set. I still think I might find myself running Haban Berry though :\
Amen! Be quiet about mence and chomp! This is a thread about ONOKUSU. personally, i've seen more talk about mence and chomp than ono.
Anyway, I like the dd set. Ono has great potential to set up a sweep, but lack of a recovery move and frail defenses requires support, such as a wishpasser like blissey, who can take special hits aimed at Ono.
Anyway, I like the dd set. Ono has great potential to set up a sweep, but lack of a recovery move and frail defenses requires support, such as a wishpasser like blissey, who can take special hits aimed at Ono.
@SithLord: SD Ono is more useful than SD Garchomp at wallbreaking because of its ability to 2HKO Skarmory, while Garchomp can easily be Whirlwinded out. However, as you mentioned, Garchomp's greater bulk and higher speed makes it better at sweeping. So it's a trade-off.
@AxelLow: What does Haban allow it to survive? Its defenses are too low to take even neutral hits easily.
EDIT: How about this spread for a DD set?
Adamant, 152 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 60 Spe
60 speed allows it to outrun positive natured base 116s after a DD, while maxing out attack and dumping the rest into Defense and HP to allow it to maybe take some physical hits like Scizor's Bullet Punch (if it gets lucky and has Leftovers) or Weavile's Ice Shard.
Alternatively, one could use 140 speed to outspeed positive natured base 130s, while taking some out of HP and Defense, but if you're going to use so little defensive investment, you might as well go 252/252/4.
EDIT2: @PK Gaming: Oops. Well Ono does have Taunt/Dragon Tail, so it does have the advantage of not being Whirlwinded out. But no, I didn't realize that. Thanks.
@AxelLow: What does Haban allow it to survive? Its defenses are too low to take even neutral hits easily.
EDIT: How about this spread for a DD set?
Adamant, 152 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 60 Spe
60 speed allows it to outrun positive natured base 116s after a DD, while maxing out attack and dumping the rest into Defense and HP to allow it to maybe take some physical hits like Scizor's Bullet Punch (if it gets lucky and has Leftovers) or Weavile's Ice Shard.
Alternatively, one could use 140 speed to outspeed positive natured base 130s, while taking some out of HP and Defense, but if you're going to use so little defensive investment, you might as well go 252/252/4.
EDIT2: @PK Gaming: Oops. Well Ono does have Taunt/Dragon Tail, so it does have the advantage of not being Whirlwinded out. But no, I didn't realize that. Thanks.