Haxorus

[Super Mario Bro]

I probably wouldn't use this Pokemon because most other Dragons outclass it in whatever it wants to do. Its DD set is outclassed by the most part by Gyarados and Salamence, who both have intimidate. Its SD set is pretty much completely outclassed by Garchomp. The only situation where it wouldn't be outclassed by these Dragons is its SD + Taunt set, and the only situation where I would find that desirable is against a Skarmory that doesn't have Brave Bird.

P.S. I would use CB Dragonite over CB Ononokusu because Extremespeed + Spikes is simply Godly.

 

[AxelLow]

I was thinking, for the bulky DD Ono, does anyone else think dragon tail is better than taunt? I mean, if they bring out a phazer you can potentially phaze them before they phaze you, while also dealing a chunk of damage to said phazer. If you have any spikes or SR on the field, the shuffling does help. Between coming in on repeated SR/spikes (depending on the phazer, as some would be hampered less) and getting hit with +1 or +2 dragon tails, they would eventually get worn out and be unable to phaze.

Of course, taunt stops this outright and the 90 accuracy is off-putting, however forcing the switches while damaging the phazer itself does mean you get more potential free turns to DD again or attack and dent something badly on entry, not to mention passive damage from your team setting up spikes/toxic spikes/SR.

Dragonal Tail with the Bulky DD Sets aren't bad, and can make for some nice dents depending on what's out. Skarmory still wont take much, but if it forces the thing out to something that you can still setup on then more power to you. Taunt still makes for more power, and utility, especially in the case when you can now have another setup sweeper come in, and get what ever they need off.

 

[Rename Card]

Pretty interesting. That base Atk is ridiculous, and it has Dragon Dance and Swords Dance on top of that. I'm pretty sure this is the only Dragon-type other than Rayquaza who has access to both, though correct me if gen 5 changed this elsewhere.

Taunt is pretty interesting on it. It doesn't look like the sort of thing that would have access to Taunt, but it's pretty damn cool that it does. The Def is pretty decent, too. It's just too bad that its Sp.A sucks butt, but what can we expect with a massive base Atk like that as it is?

 

[AxelLow]

Agreed Rename. His Massive attack is a blessing since it warrants the ability to not have to use attack EV's to help boost his pretty decent 90 def (adamant Ono with no attack EV's is at 363 attack stat). With that alone, he can actually reach up to standard Rayquaza damage with about 100 investments in attack.

Although, the massive attack makes for a trade off for no Sp. Atk, and no noticeable special attacks to possibly use. Good thing is that while it is physical, it's like as you mentioned, it can go both DD or SD to boost his attacks to even more astounding measures. It's speed is nice, but can also be avoided, while Dragon Dance can help it reach over 500 speed, which is all it'll ever need to reach its maximum potential.

The main thing that sets it apart from common Dragons is the x2 weakness to Ice, Taunt, Mono typing for a nice defensive measure, and some noticable moves(but he could have more). From all that though, Ono is really not a common dragon, but if you build a team around exploiting his strengths, and negating its weakness, you have a very powerful mid to late game sweeper when Hard counters are out of the way.

 

[Colonel M]

No, it still fears priority from Choice Band Scizor just like Salamence does. That's, of course, the problem. Furthermore, with Leftovers you now nerf the chances of getting two Dragon Dances from Scarf Garchomp and company, which would've been a big help since even +1 Ononokusu is still pretty meh in Speed and damage. It's good, but you're overrating how good it is.

The reason Haban berry is more useful then anything is because of the scarfed dragons that'll be running around in the beginning. Bulky Ono sets will survive a Draco Meteor from Latias with SR not on the field, and can stop chomp from doing ridiculous damage as well. Sazando's Draco meteor can be damped as well. Even though that Sazando, and Latias will obviously work better revenging it when not at the +2 DD marker is because they're hitting on his none defensive side (which, not even Yachi can do anything about when it comes to Ice attacks).

Im not sure what you mean about the Gyarados thing since even if Gyara got a boost to his special attack, any Ono not running with some HP stats only take around 55-59% with Yachi, and take even less from Hydro Pump. Unless you meant stone Edge? Because Stone Edge would be the only extremely damaging thing that would come from Gyara after a +1 Atk Boost, which bulky sets can live through and K.O back.

False false false. First off, we discussed this pretty extensively in #stark, where a user brought up that it was OHKOed by Scarf Latias. I even asked for the calculation, and we both confirmed that it is 100% with Stealth Rock, and pretty high chances without. For those wondering at home, the damage output with Draco Meteor is 93.2% - 109.9%. That's with Haban Berry. Max HP takes 73.6% - 87.1%, but now you trade Attack or Speed. The good news is that Ononokusu can afford to use more EVs into HP at least since 303 is the most Speed it needs, which can be reached with Adamant. The bad news? Well, after a Draco Meteor you're not left with much breathing space. Max damage is still... 99% health gone from Stealth Rock. Then you must make sure Sandstorm isn't present. That's a big problem.

I also just proved that Yache can help Ononokusu versus Ice-type attacks, with Starmie and +1 Ice Fang from Gyarados. It fails versus Choice Band Mamoswine... and that's about it. Haban / Yache Berry Ononokusu can work, but it requires some frightening situations. You also can't afford much bulk onto Ononokusu: Ono needs 303 Speed to outspeed Mole after two Dragon Dances. This heavily depends on what nature you use as well, since Adamant will require more Attack EVs onto it.

I haven't looked into the SD sets much, mostly because I dont like to use SD, but DD sets are still functional in various cases with Ono.

But they're simply not safe enough. Dragon Dance sets are viable, yes, then again there is too much fluctuation with Speed (Choice Scarf Latias is the least of your problems here). It's not weak to priority aside from Ice Shard, thankfully, but it's common enough to make the difference.

My tl;dr version is this: If you're using Ononokusu as a Dragon Dancer, you better have your Yache / Haban berries ready. And make sure to stay the hell away from Scarf Lati@s, which are solid checks against it.

Aside from that, Ononokusu is a threat. A decent one, but I think you're slightly overhyping its Dragon Dance "capabilities". It's a great Pokemon, for sure, since Dragon Dance can work with resist berries and maybe removal of Stealth Rock / Sandstorm (of course that is easier said than done). I'm still more intrigued with Swords Dance Ononokusu with Taunt. Adamant Outrage steamrolls through Pokemon like nothing. For fucks sake, the current Hippowdon EV spread gets OHKOed by +2 Adamant Outrage. Max HP / max Def Hippo takes 93.6% - 110.2%, which in other words: high ass chances to OHKO regardless so long as Stealth Rock is in play. All you really have to do is clear Skarmory and find a good Pokemon to set up on with Taunt + Swords Dance, or just Swords Dance on the switch and Taunt if it's Skarmory. I'd go as far to say that Ononokusu is the ultimate stall breaker with just Swords Dance + Outrage alone.

 

[AlphaSpade]

I wouldn't really worry about Skarm to begin with, since +2 Adamant LO Outrage is practically a clean 2HKO (52-61%) on physically defensive Skarm.

Man, that's insane...

 

[Colonel M]

I wouldn't really worry about Skarm to begin with, since +2 Adamant LO Outrage is practically a clean 2HKO (52-61%) on physically defensive Skarm.

Man, that's insane...

Skarmory can also phase you out, but that's why you carry Taunt anyway. You could also use Dragon Tail over Taunt, but Taunt shuts down Skarmory trying to Roost through Outrages as a tactic or Whirlwinding you out. Then again it's between Whirlwind and Brave Bird.

 

[purpleanon]

Is everyone here serious? This thing is going to be ubered. With or without earthquake. He will be the metagame if he doesn't get banned and every team will be forced to use a Bronzong.

 

[Colonel M]

Is everyone here serious? This thing is going to be ubered. With or without earthquake. He will be the metagame if he doesn't get banned and every team will be forced to use a Bronzong.

Bronzong gets fucked by Earthquake so "who cares?"

This thing is good, but I would not classify it as Uber or even the metagame revolving around it. Doryuuzu has a much higher chance of being "Uber" and the metagame revolving around it than Ononokusu does.

 

[purpleanon]

Right, forgot all about Mold Breaker.

 

[GLS]

From my admittedly limited time battling against this guy, I highly doubt he is ubers material. He can barely take non-stabbed neutral hits. He kind of crumples when you don't waste turns switching around to find a counter to him and just attack him head on. I'm sure as people get better at using him things will change, but I just don't see it.

 

[AxelLow]

You didn't disprove anything I said as false Colonel. I stated that with SR, Latias would K.O with Draco Meteor, so that information wasn't false at all. Also, using the Bulky Ono Set that I posted last page, I did not recieve the damage that you posted, and you can calc that for yourself as well. The Ono set on the last page only takes 82.2-97%. That's calcing without SR, and with it, as I said, will kill it. Regardless, it'll even out to the same numbers, but my information was from nowhere near false.

And I never said that Yachi wasn't helpful to Ono, but your example with Gyara didn't make sense at first because Ice Fang wasn't mentioned. While in the case that it does run Ice Fang, it'll hurt, or down right K.O, I would still want to run Haban berry because I fear scarfed dragons waay more.

Ono really doesn't need to outspeed the mole when with just 100 atk, and an adamant nature can kill the mole as long as it's at a +1. Otherwise, Ono wont be out on the field trying to take that thing out. Especially when it's a under Sandstorm.

Where have I over-hyped it as well? Because im enthustiastic about a set, makes it overhyped? For the past few pages I've been discussing counters and such, only getting really excited about it reaching the +2 DD marker. Which is still able to be killed, and with decent research can be figured out.

Regardless, I agree that he is a threat, and will continue to look towards DD sets for now. SD sets are looking more interesting, but my current interest is on DD. Although, all the SD post are very awesome, and sound absolutely amazing when it comes to wall-breaking.

 

[Colonel M]

You didn't disprove anything I said as false Colonel. I stated that with SR, Latias would K.O with Draco Meteor, so that information wasn't false at all. Also, using the Bulky Ono Set that I posted last page, I did not recieve the damage that you posted, and you can calc that for yourself as well. The Ono set on the last page only takes 82.2-97%. That's calcing without SR, and with it, as I said, will kill it. Regardless, it'll even out to the same numbers, but my information was from nowhere near false.

But the condition is technically asking for the best case scenario, in which that there will be a) no Stealth Rock on the field and b) no Sandstorm running. So technically, your analysis is partially innacurate in that account.

And I never said that Yachi wasn't helpful to Ono, but your example with Gyara didn't make sense at first because Ice Fang wasn't mentioned. While in the case that it does run Ice Fang, it'll hurt, or down right K.O, I would still want to run Haban berry because I fear scarfed dragons waay more.

No, +1 Ice Fang doesn't OHKO Ono with Yache. Unless you're jumbling the words around. Of course I fear Scarfed Dragons way more, but there isn't many circumstances where you can really survive with Sandstorm and Stealth Rock going against you. They just hit too damn hard it seems.

Ono really doesn't need to outspeed the mole when with just 100 atk, and an adamant nature can kill the mole as long as it's at a +1. Otherwise, Ono wont be out on the field trying to take that thing out. Especially when it's a under Sandstorm.

It needs 303 Speed to outspeed the mole under Sandstorm after 2 Dragon Dances. Then again, it looks like Mole crushes it to smithereens with one Earthquake anyway.

Where have I over-hyped it as well? Because im enthustiastic about a set, makes it overhyped? For the past few pages I've been discussing counters and such, only getting really excited about it reaching the +2 DD marker. Which is still able to be killed, and with decent research can be figured out.

Slightly over-enthusiastic about it. I just feel that priority is going to be very dominant in this generation once again, and Scarfers are probably going to be more common with the new Speed Pokemon. Meh, it's the speculation of it even reaching +2 Spe. +1 still isn't bad, but it's nothing that screams awesome either. Perhaps with a little more bulk you could pull Haban alright... but it's still wonky to me. Just a little of course. Absolute minimum Speed I would run is 279 for Timid ScarfTran though.

Meh, though Defog buff kind of hurts the thought, Dual Screens would help Ononokusu a bit with Dragon Dance. *Shrugs*.

 

[AxelLow]

Dual Screens definitely helps (atleast enough to where any Ono wont feel frail). Also, what I mean't by the down right K.O was in the case of a crit, so I should have just said crit to be more clear.

I agree that the mole is a problem, so the best thing, IMO, is to already be out on the field before it with atleast a +1 for the DD'ers to K.O it while surviving any attack it sends out(this is of course if you have invested in bulk).

 

[JSND]

What is defog buff ? If its about the hazard it has been proved to be false rumor
Well mole is just a beast with Ttar. Ono need team support to be suceed even more than
that of garchomp who actualy support his team and only need support from Ttar(which is a nice pokemon that everybody would love to use anyway) and hazards and his sexy yache berry. So even if its a truly big threat its chance to become deadweight is more than that of K-Dra nite mence or Chompy

 

[Colonel M]

What is defog buff ? If its about the hazard it has been proved to be false rumor

The research thread was a little confusing, but after reading it a bit more it makes sense now. Well at least it doesn't clear your entry hazards like it did in Gen IV so technically... it got buffed. >_>;

 

[Lucindril]

Dual Screens Magnezone + Ono would work pretty well, now that I think about it. If Magnezone manages to get into Skarmory without a Shed Shell, there's a pretty big threat out of the way for Ono. And if Skarmory gets almost 2HKO'd by Outrage, there's no chance of Cresselia stopping him (although going straight into Outrage is never a good idea).

 

[Kizzy]

I'm running a revenge killing set like this

Ononokusu @ Choice Scarf

Rivalry
Adamant
252 Atk / 252 Spe

Outrage
Earthquake
Shadow Claw
Brick Break

Could I get damage calcs on
Mold Breaker Earthquake vs Levitate Rotom
Rivalry STAB Outrage vs Levitate Rotom?

Rivalry boosts attack by 25%, I'm attempting to run a pseudo Life Orb on a Scarfed Pogeyman. I can't find a calc that either has 5th gen pokemon or one calculates from base stats.

I'm asking because I'm aware of the whole "STAB Earthquake has the same damage as Super Effective Brick Break" rule. I want to know if the same applies with Outrage vs a Ground weak pokemon.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

@Lucindril: Cresselia is OHKOed after SR 99% of the time by a LO +2 Outrage, and is easily 2HKOed with any item if Ono gets to +2. And Skarm is always 2HKOed by a LO +2 Outrage, Ono has a 33% chance to 2HKO Skarm without a Life Orb if it has Leftovers, and ~70% chance to 2HKO it if it has a Shed Shell.

@Kizzy: Rivalry is a bad idea; it makes its attack go lower if the opponent is of the opposite gender, and Mold Breaker lets it accomplish what it needs to. Also, STAB Outrage has 180 BP, while SE EQ has 200 BP, so they would do about the same damage. Mold Breaker Earthquake does 63.8% - 75.7% to a very physically defensive Rotom forme, while Rivalry (it doesn't activate against Rotom) STAB Outrage does 57.6% - 68.1% to very defensive Rotom formes.

@Colonel M: The Swords Dance set you suggested one page earlier doesn't need all that speed, does it? If it's meant to be a stallbreaker, shouldn't it use Adamant? And is 252 speed really necessary?

 

[Habitus]

Mold Breaker vs 252 HP 168 Def Rotom, (Fire) 127.6% - 151.3%, (Water, Ice) 63.8% - 75.7%, (Grass) 31.9% - 37.8%, (Flying) 0%
Mold Breaker vs 0 HP 0 Def Rotom, (Fire) 205.8% - 244%, (Water, Ice) 102.9% - 122%, (Grass) 51.5% - 61%, (Flying) 0%

Rivalty vs 252 HP 168 Def Rotom, 71.4% - 84.2% (42.8% - 50.7% with drop)
Rivalry vs 0 HP 0 Def Rotom, 115.8% - 136.1% (69.7% - 82.2% with drop)

The 0 HP 0 Def Rotom can outspeed with scarf, +nature and 240 Speed EVs.

*edit*
Since Rivalry doesn't work on Rotom cause of it being Genderless.

Outrage vs 252 HP 168 Def Rotom, 57.2% - 67.4%
Outrage vs 0 HP 0 Def Rotom, 92.5% - 109.5%

 

[Kizzy]

Thankyou for the calcs. Could I ask what site/program that you use?

Then I'll use Mold Breaker Ononkusu. Its disappointing, but who am I to complain with 147 Atk?

 

[Habitus]

Smogon's Calc, since you can just enter the base stats, type, and such without selecting a pokemon if you want.

 

[Colonel M]

@Colonel M: The Swords Dance set you suggested one page earlier doesn't need all that speed, does it? If it's meant to be a stallbreaker, shouldn't it use Adamant? And is 252 speed really necessary?

Obviously, after looking at the calcs closer, it should be Adamant. For Speed, I wouldn't make it much slower. You definitely should outrun things like Adamant Lucario at the least since Life Orb Extremespeed does 41.3% - 48.8% to 0/0 Ononokusu and you don't want to get suckered into a Close Combat. Obviously it's effective vs. Stall, but you want it effective outside of stall as well. Jolly is still a viable option since you don't want Gliscor harming your sweep either, though I'm not sure if it's going to use Jolly or not.

EDIT: Scratch that. I'd look at Base 95s minimum since there are two eyesores there that "could" threaten this guy (Ice Dragon dude and Hihidaruma).

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Oh wow, I hadn't thought of them. Yes, outspeeding base 95s is essential for the Swords Dance set when factoring in Kyuremu and Hihi, and considering the offensive nature of those two, they could easily be running Jolly themselves, so Jolly could also be viable on the SD set, to allow Ono to keep sweeping. With Taunt, it can take out Skarm in three hits anyway with Outrage, so Adamant isn't completely necessary. And outspeeding Jolly Gliscor and Lucario, as you said, is also important.

 

[AxelLow]

Good thing about Ono is that his two main natures are interchangeable with out much harm to EV spreads, so that's a plus for both sets.

So far, the DD sets are tough to play around with, and require a bit of special attention to function properly(bulky sets function alot differently, and do indeed allow for more setups). I haven't breed my SD Ono yet, but I'll be trying that out soon. Also, base 95's are indeed a problem, particularly the dragon. A friend of mine has been terrorizing my team with scarfed hida, and mixed Kyu, so my DD team enjoys having chomp for both.