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Excadrill
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
- Start date
Problem being that it seems most likely that Return, and not X-Scissor, is going to be Doryuuzu's 3rd attack of choice, which will ensure that it wins the matchup with Birijion unless already weakened. I can only speak from personal experience, but I've had a lot more success using Breloom to counter Dory than Birijion.
Torterra could wreck this thing if set-up properly. Doryuuzu doesn't carry any Ice-type attacks, and switching into Gyarados/a Flying-type would be predicted, and Rock Slide would hurt them a lot. Assuming bad Speed and mediocre Attack would be preposterous, as Ninjask and Blaziken can just Baton Pass their boosts to Torterra to make it OU-worthy (as if it didn't have a niche in OU already... *looks at Torterra analysis* Oh, wait!)
When figuring sand, you also have to worry about Cacturne evading your attacks. Comes standard with Brightpowder and will Leech Seed Doryuuzu's health away while getting a good evasion percentage thanks to Sand Veil.
Good ol' Stockpile Gastrodon can take whatever hits this guy throws when it reaches 3 levels (at 3 levels, Gastrodon is bulkier than even Shuckle!). Expecting switch-ins, Gastro will just build his Stockpile, Recover AND Pain Split damage away, and hit with STAB Earth Powers/Earthquakes (or Mud Slaps, to make accuracy go down), or Toxic potential threats when Doryuuzu isn't around.
Of course, there's also Gallade for the same reasons as Torterra in that it can gain Speed and Attack boosts from Baton Passes, and then use Close Combat while avoiding Earthquakes ("Good thing I found a Magic Balloon!"). Residual damage in sandstorm is negligible when it can go first thanks to boosted Speed after killing Doryuuzu.
When figuring sand, you also have to worry about Cacturne evading your attacks. Comes standard with Brightpowder and will Leech Seed Doryuuzu's health away while getting a good evasion percentage thanks to Sand Veil.
Good ol' Stockpile Gastrodon can take whatever hits this guy throws when it reaches 3 levels (at 3 levels, Gastrodon is bulkier than even Shuckle!). Expecting switch-ins, Gastro will just build his Stockpile, Recover AND Pain Split damage away, and hit with STAB Earth Powers/Earthquakes (or Mud Slaps, to make accuracy go down), or Toxic potential threats when Doryuuzu isn't around.
Of course, there's also Gallade for the same reasons as Torterra in that it can gain Speed and Attack boosts from Baton Passes, and then use Close Combat while avoiding Earthquakes ("Good thing I found a Magic Balloon!"). Residual damage in sandstorm is negligible when it can go first thanks to boosted Speed after killing Doryuuzu.
Just name the reasonably bulky water types with Aqua Jet.
Daikenki - 95/100/85. That's a spread.
Abagoora - If running Solid Rock, 74/108/133 is a very good spread, it could even set up Shell Break
Mamanbou - 175/75/80 is an excellent spread
Blastoise - 79/83/100 is good
Feraligatr - 85/105/100 is a sick spread
Azumarill - 100/134.5/80 is an easy KO
Now, name the reasonably bulky fighting types with Mach Punch. That's another list of checks.
Daikenki - 95/100/85. That's a spread.
Abagoora - If running Solid Rock, 74/108/133 is a very good spread, it could even set up Shell Break
Mamanbou - 175/75/80 is an excellent spread
Blastoise - 79/83/100 is good
Feraligatr - 85/105/100 is a sick spread
Azumarill - 100/134.5/80 is an easy KO
Now, name the reasonably bulky fighting types with Mach Punch. That's another list of checks.
Rohpushin is probably your best bet, and Hitmontop could work too. Breloom resists Earthquake and Rock Slide, so maybe he counts.
Why Empoleon is not mentioned is beyond me...
Probably got left out due to EQ weakness.If you get it on anything else though its good
Technitop and Techiloom are both extremely effective iirc.
How many times to we have to say this...
SE priority does not a counter make!
Adamant STAB <Priority Move> vs. 0/4 Dory would take 252 base attack to OHKO with 252 Atk EVs. With a LO, you would need base 182 Atk. With a CB, you need base 151 Atk. These are all the pokemon that can 1-shot Dory 100% of the time with a priority move:
Adamant Techniloom @ LO or CB
Jolly Techniloom @ LO or CB
Adamant +1 Roopushin @ CB (Ability must be Iron Fist)
I think Expert Belt might work on some of them too. The only reason any of these are on the list is because their Ability boosts the power of their Mach punch.
CB Azu comes close, but don't OHKO 100% of the time. If you have rocks down it does. So even if you have SE Priority on Dory, you still aren't a counter. If it doesn't OHKO, he could stay in and take you out, because tbh most pokes will die from +2 EQ. So aside from Techniloom and Roopushin, other priority users are at the best shaky checks against Dory.
EDIT: Technitop can also beat Dory with a combination of Fake Out + Mach Punch. So 3 pokemon can reliably take down Dory with priority.
Ok, how about making the water pokemon bulky enough to only take about 81% max from +2 EQ and making the fighting pokes bulky enough to take 87% max. As long as they can grip a 2hko anyway, it's a solid counter.
And have your bulky water down at 15% just from taking out Dory? No thanks.
And that won't even be happening in the first place, for instance Adamant Feraligatr with 252 Def / 252 Atk is OHKOd about 70% of the time by +2 EQ, even though it gets the 2HKO with Aqua Jet. Find me something bulky enough to survive Dory's EQ that can also 2HKO back with priority and I might consider it a counter.
Breloom can switch in and OHKO from what I remember. There you go.
Edit:
Adamant Doryuuzu with +2 and LO does 88.9% - 104.6% with EQ, you're best off trying to predict when he SD's.
Without LO 68.5% - 80.6%
LO without +2, 44.4% - 52.5%
LO Rockslide without +2, 22.2% - 26.2%
LO +2 Rockslide 44.4% - 52.5%
This is with 252 HP EV's BTW. Breloom's slow enough I don't give two fucks about his speed.
(Lol Doryuuzu's better off EQ'ing everything that's not immune)
Edit:
Adamant Doryuuzu with +2 and LO does 88.9% - 104.6% with EQ, you're best off trying to predict when he SD's.
Without LO 68.5% - 80.6%
LO without +2, 44.4% - 52.5%
LO Rockslide without +2, 22.2% - 26.2%
LO +2 Rockslide 44.4% - 52.5%
This is with 252 HP EV's BTW. Breloom's slow enough I don't give two fucks about his speed.
(Lol Doryuuzu's better off EQ'ing everything that's not immune)
Ok i just did some calcs with brellom and he needs a minimun of 188 HP for surviving always adamant max attack doryuzu return (without any boost) after SR, one layer of spikes and SS damage, and OHKO'ing him 100% of the time with expert belt mach punch, leftovers isnt a secure OHKO (even with rocks) and LO make you die after killing him. Brellom looks good for checking doryuzu most of the time, he just need to be a full health without being bad vs other pokemon (read: ballon-random pokemon without EQ weakness)
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Doryuzu learns X-Scissor. EdgeQuake with bug move is ultimate coverage. He doesn't need to rely on Return.
Return does more to Doryuuzu's checks that already resist EdgeQuake (with the exception of Bronzong)... so I really don't see where you're coming from here.
Return is better than x-scisor vs gliscor, randorosu, birijon, flygon, the rotom forms and im probably missing something. X-scisor helps with celebi, cresselia and bronzong. Its up to you both are useful depending of your team needs
Return allows Doryuuzu to hit Rotom-W, Randorosu, Gliscor, and Birijion, all of whom don't take much from Rock Slide or X-Scissor.
Really, the only reason why you would run X-Scissor would be to hit Celebi and Shaymin, and even then both take a lot of damage from Return (a +2 LO Jolly Return deals an average of 57.18% to 252 HP/252 Def +Nature Celebi).
EDIT: Ninja'd by -Life- and Bad Romance...
Really, the only reason why you would run X-Scissor would be to hit Celebi and Shaymin, and even then both take a lot of damage from Return (a +2 LO Jolly Return deals an average of 57.18% to 252 HP/252 Def +Nature Celebi).
EDIT: Ninja'd by -Life- and Bad Romance...
I've been trying to think of Pokemon that nullify the weather advantage on Doryuuzu, but instead of thinking priority, I'm going the route of taking away Sand Throw's x2 speed boost.
Ninetales can switch into Swords Dance (or EQ with baloon) and stop Sandstorm with Drought. After this, it outspeeds Doryuuzu's base 88 speed with its own base 100 speed. 252 S.Atk / 252 Spe Modest Ninetales does 182.5% - 215.3% to Doryuuzu in the sun (Doryuuzu's Evs assumed to be the ones in the OP). The same Ninetales, with Choice Specs (I'll use this one in all my following scenarios) does 273.8% - 321.9%.
I don't know what people switch to in a situation like this in sandstorm teams, but here are a few possibilities. If you decide to switch Doryuuzu out and bring in Hippowdon to clear the weather, that Fire Blast (Choice Specs'd) does 64.3% - 75.7% in a sandstorm, a 2HKO with Leftovers. If you have Tyranitar as your sandstormer, a 4 HP / 0 SpDef variant takes a paltry 22.8% - 27.2% in sandstorm, while a hypothetical 252 HP / 252 SpDef variant takes 15.3% - 18.1%, getting a lot worse considering Leftovers. Switching to Heatran gives you a free Flash Fire and ruins Ninetales' day. Unfortunately, Ninetales with Drought is a Dream World Combination, so we may never get to use it.
Golduck with Cloud Nine outspeeds with 252 SAtk / 252 Spe Timid (Choice Specs and Life Orb movesets), and always OHKOs with either item, using Surf or Hydro Pump. Again, no idea what you switch in when you're facing Golduck with your sandstorm team. It can switch in on Swords Dance only, obviously (or get a baloon).
Altaria with Cloud Nine barely outspeeds as 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly @ Life Orb, and only does 78.1% - 92.3% with EQ. If you wanted to run the Choice Band set it does 98.9% - 116.4%. Hypothetical Timid 252 SAtk / 252 Spe Altaria @ Life Orb (not so crazy considering its Atk and SAtk are both equal) does 1% more damage than the physical EQ set with Fire Blast. Altaria's advantage is in being able to switch in during Swords Dance or EQ, which gives it more space than the two above.
Lickilicky and Politoed never outspeed Doryuuzu and eat a +2 EQ and die.
So basically, you can also deal with Doryuuzu without priority super effective hits, though it may be more difficult considering you have to run these Pokemon to do so.
Ninetales can switch into Swords Dance (or EQ with baloon) and stop Sandstorm with Drought. After this, it outspeeds Doryuuzu's base 88 speed with its own base 100 speed. 252 S.Atk / 252 Spe Modest Ninetales does 182.5% - 215.3% to Doryuuzu in the sun (Doryuuzu's Evs assumed to be the ones in the OP). The same Ninetales, with Choice Specs (I'll use this one in all my following scenarios) does 273.8% - 321.9%.
I don't know what people switch to in a situation like this in sandstorm teams, but here are a few possibilities. If you decide to switch Doryuuzu out and bring in Hippowdon to clear the weather, that Fire Blast (Choice Specs'd) does 64.3% - 75.7% in a sandstorm, a 2HKO with Leftovers. If you have Tyranitar as your sandstormer, a 4 HP / 0 SpDef variant takes a paltry 22.8% - 27.2% in sandstorm, while a hypothetical 252 HP / 252 SpDef variant takes 15.3% - 18.1%, getting a lot worse considering Leftovers. Switching to Heatran gives you a free Flash Fire and ruins Ninetales' day. Unfortunately, Ninetales with Drought is a Dream World Combination, so we may never get to use it.
Golduck with Cloud Nine outspeeds with 252 SAtk / 252 Spe Timid (Choice Specs and Life Orb movesets), and always OHKOs with either item, using Surf or Hydro Pump. Again, no idea what you switch in when you're facing Golduck with your sandstorm team. It can switch in on Swords Dance only, obviously (or get a baloon).
Altaria with Cloud Nine barely outspeeds as 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly @ Life Orb, and only does 78.1% - 92.3% with EQ. If you wanted to run the Choice Band set it does 98.9% - 116.4%. Hypothetical Timid 252 SAtk / 252 Spe Altaria @ Life Orb (not so crazy considering its Atk and SAtk are both equal) does 1% more damage than the physical EQ set with Fire Blast. Altaria's advantage is in being able to switch in during Swords Dance or EQ, which gives it more space than the two above.
Lickilicky and Politoed never outspeed Doryuuzu and eat a +2 EQ and die.
So basically, you can also deal with Doryuuzu without priority super effective hits, though it may be more difficult considering you have to run these Pokemon to do so.
I like the impact Doryuuzu has on the metagame. He discourages people from using heavy offense teams and as we all know, HO is a style that requires very little skill, speeds games up far too much and just generally dumbs down the game. So I'm cool with anything that makes it difficult for them to function.
But he does have counters. In fact, he has a lot of counters when compared to something like Garchomp or Salamence.
If he is holding Balloon or Shucha Berry he can't OHKO bulky waters like Swampert (83% max), Suicune (70% max) or Slowbro (79% max with X-Scissor) and will be OHKO'd in return. Skarmory takes 37% max from +2 Rock Slide and phazes him. And yeah, you can argue that he has took a chunk out of his own counter but do you seriously think the opponent is going to let you set up twice? You'll have a hard time breaking through Weezing without Life Orb and he burns Dory or 2HKOs with Fire Blast. Rotom-W and Rotom-H take his attacks well and OHKO with Overheat or Hydro Pump. Tangrowth takes 71% max from +2 X-Scissor and if Dory is packing Return instead then good luck (45% max). He can Sleep Powder or do 70% with Leaf Storm, knocking off the Balloon in the process. Uxie takes 79% max from +2 X-Scissor or 50% max from +2 Return. He can force him out with Yawn or throw up a Reflect. SubSeed Breloom takes 74% max from +2 Return or 59% from +2 X-Scissor. He can Spore Doryuuzu and set up a Substitute. Birijion has that same Grass/Fighting typing and can use STAB Close Combat.
(^all calcs assume Adamant 252 Dory and 252/252+ defensive spreads)
If he uses Life Orb then some of those counters don't do the job as well but he can now be countered by things like Gliscor, Bronzong, Flygon and Randorosu amongst others. The fact that Balloon is revealed to you is huge.
With an Adamant nature he's outpaced by anything with over 550 Spe. So that means Scarfed versions of Sceptile, Alakazam, Dugtrio, Darkrai, Weavile, Shaymin-S and Aerodactyl can all outrun and deal potentially fatal damage. If he runs a Jolly nature then he runs into even more trouble against the defensive counters I mentioned earlier.
You can slap Balloon on a whole host of Pokemon who can effortlessly counter Doryuuzu thanks to their newfound Ground immunity. Heatran for example.
In a pinch, Gyarados and Salamence can switch in on Earthquake or X-Scissor and cut his attack with Intimidate before switching back out or saccing themselves.
Erufuun can come in on Swords Dance and Encore it. He can Stun Spore him too. Or Encore an Earthquake and go to a Flying/Levitate/Balloon Pokemon.
Breloom, Ropushin and Azumarill can all OHKO with priority after Dory has taken LO and SR damage. Dory takes 40% max from Scizor's Bullet Punch.
And that's just off the top of my head.
Doryuuzu is a fantastic Pokemon, no doubt about that...probably the most dangerous of all the new additions. But if you've struggled with him to the point that you're already calling uber then you're either a) too quick to brandish the banhammer, b) you're not preparing for him or c) you're running an HO team without paying enough respect to Dory.
But he does have counters. In fact, he has a lot of counters when compared to something like Garchomp or Salamence.
If he is holding Balloon or Shucha Berry he can't OHKO bulky waters like Swampert (83% max), Suicune (70% max) or Slowbro (79% max with X-Scissor) and will be OHKO'd in return. Skarmory takes 37% max from +2 Rock Slide and phazes him. And yeah, you can argue that he has took a chunk out of his own counter but do you seriously think the opponent is going to let you set up twice? You'll have a hard time breaking through Weezing without Life Orb and he burns Dory or 2HKOs with Fire Blast. Rotom-W and Rotom-H take his attacks well and OHKO with Overheat or Hydro Pump. Tangrowth takes 71% max from +2 X-Scissor and if Dory is packing Return instead then good luck (45% max). He can Sleep Powder or do 70% with Leaf Storm, knocking off the Balloon in the process. Uxie takes 79% max from +2 X-Scissor or 50% max from +2 Return. He can force him out with Yawn or throw up a Reflect. SubSeed Breloom takes 74% max from +2 Return or 59% from +2 X-Scissor. He can Spore Doryuuzu and set up a Substitute. Birijion has that same Grass/Fighting typing and can use STAB Close Combat.
(^all calcs assume Adamant 252 Dory and 252/252+ defensive spreads)
If he uses Life Orb then some of those counters don't do the job as well but he can now be countered by things like Gliscor, Bronzong, Flygon and Randorosu amongst others. The fact that Balloon is revealed to you is huge.
With an Adamant nature he's outpaced by anything with over 550 Spe. So that means Scarfed versions of Sceptile, Alakazam, Dugtrio, Darkrai, Weavile, Shaymin-S and Aerodactyl can all outrun and deal potentially fatal damage. If he runs a Jolly nature then he runs into even more trouble against the defensive counters I mentioned earlier.
You can slap Balloon on a whole host of Pokemon who can effortlessly counter Doryuuzu thanks to their newfound Ground immunity. Heatran for example.
In a pinch, Gyarados and Salamence can switch in on Earthquake or X-Scissor and cut his attack with Intimidate before switching back out or saccing themselves.
Erufuun can come in on Swords Dance and Encore it. He can Stun Spore him too. Or Encore an Earthquake and go to a Flying/Levitate/Balloon Pokemon.
Breloom, Ropushin and Azumarill can all OHKO with priority after Dory has taken LO and SR damage. Dory takes 40% max from Scizor's Bullet Punch.
And that's just off the top of my head.
Doryuuzu is a fantastic Pokemon, no doubt about that...probably the most dangerous of all the new additions. But if you've struggled with him to the point that you're already calling uber then you're either a) too quick to brandish the banhammer, b) you're not preparing for him or c) you're running an HO team without paying enough respect to Dory.
soul_survivor
VGCPL Champion
he does have many counters but he also has a wide range of pokemon that can support him. from tyranitar and hippowdons setting up SS. Also if you revolve a SS team heatran can protect doryuuzu from fire and water absorb vaporeon is great for aqua jet users.
lmitchell0012
Wi-Fi Blacklisted
I really don't understand why everyone is so hyped about this pokemon. Sure, he's got sand strength, awesome attack and decent speed, but when you compare him to something like hippowdon he is largely outclassed. Compared to hippowdon, his defense is pathetic, he does not have access to a reliable recovery move, and he has more weaknesses than hippowdon (weakness to fighting and ground will especially hurt him in the long run).
soul_survivor
VGCPL Champion
he's not supposed to be a bulky pokemon like hippowdon. also note wish got better.(read it on the wish thread) and in that case many sweepers don't have self healing moves. oh and his ability makes him amazingly fast.
He is certainly countered by Hippowdon. Outclassed however, not by a longshot. Hippo brings sand stream and can take pain while dishing it right back out. Dory on the other hand has amazing speed and power under sandstorm- Hippo will never be a sweeper. They play entirely different roles and fit well on the same team, its like saying Starmie is outclassed by Suicune because of his ability to Calm Mind better.
...
You couldn't be more wrong about his speed.
I shouldn't have to say this but both of those pokemon do completely different things.