Generation 5 tiers, an initial list.

[Cathy]

Megan's point is actually very true, but I don't think his proposed solution is the right approach, for the reasons Risking Dusk mentions.

I think the best way is to do it is instant runoff voting. The wikipedia page explains, but I'll restate it here in terms of the ban list issue. We construct a list consisting of "No ban list" and several ban lists and then people vote with a list of the options ordered (e.g. "1: Ban List A, 2: Ban List B, 3: No Ban List, 4: Ban List C"). At first, however, we only consider the #1 choice on each list. If any option has a majority of the votes, then it wins. Otherwise, the least popular option is removed from the list and anybody whose #1 choice was that option is instead counted using their #2 choice. At this point again, if any option has a majority, then it wins, otherwise this algorithm continues, counting each person's vote as their highest preference that is still in the running.

The main problem with other approaches is exactly what Megan Fox says: the vote for the various ban lists is going to be split because most ban list supporters presumably would support more than one ban list. The ban list that gets the most votes in a direct vote may not actually be the most agreeable ban list.

Also, this approach only requires one vote to decide this whole issue, rather than several.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Yeah I would definitely agree. A runoff vote seems most logical.

Is there any date we're shooting for?

 

[Megan_Fox]

I completely agree with a runoff vote, great idea Cathy. And echoing Jabba's question.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I agree with Cathy here, and I think that process would definitely be the best for us to use. We use a similar variant in CAP, and it works wonderfully there. Also, not that I really mind, but my name isn't Risking Dusk. :P

Is there any date we're shooting for?

I would like to have this thing settled and poll started by Sunday. The poll should be open for 4-5 days.

 

[locopoke]

Banlist #3
Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys-s
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-o
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Wobbuffet
Zekrom

Since this was my ban list, I'd like to make a change to it. I'm removing Darkrai, after having played with it for a while on PO, I don't think it's worthy of a spot on the initial list. Also going to go ahead and remove Mew.

I also agree with Cathy and I'd like to get this poll started as soon as possible, as I think we have all of our ban lists sorted out in Rising_Dusk's earlier post.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

If you change the banlist, then people will not have had time to weigh in on it. However, since we're still a few days away from when we want the poll to begin (I would like to get as much last minute feedback as possible), it should be fine. I'll edit the post.

 

[Cathy]

When "we" want it to begin? You're the only one who posted a date, which no one has commented on. Not exactly much of a consensus.

That said, I don't think we're really waiting for anything in particular to happen before the vote can start, other than sorting out some access issues, and writing a program to actually do the preferential voting (I plan to do it with a forum thread with a required format which hopefully people will be able to follow).

If anybody else has any submissions on when to do the vote, though, feel free to post them.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Sorry, a lot of the discussion about this sort of thing happens on IRC, so "we" includes a lot of people from that who agreed with the date. I didn't think to mention that in the last post, though, so I apologize for that. Certainly it can be discussed it if that date is a problem or if people would rather start it sooner; I have no issue with that.

 

[Syberia]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet in this topic (I don't think it has), but it stands to reason that the "no bans" proposal has already been implemented for anyone who chooses to play PO in the metagames where everything is allowed. Regardless of whether it's "officially" recognized or not (which is just Smogon playing politics, and has no bearing on the fact that people have been gaining experience there), the several weeks that PO has been online has probably given the necessary experience, even to the "no banlist" crowd, to prove that Mewtwo, Arceus, and the majority of the cover legends are actually overpowering. After all, I do not even see this group clamoring for us to adopt ubers as our standard tier of play, but rather to play with things before they're banned. This has happened to a large extent right under our nose while we have been trying to establish a ban list.

If you are opposed to a banlist on these grounds, but have experience playing, please weigh in based on that, and not just on principle.

Since this was my ban list, I'd like to make a change to it. I'm removing Darkrai, after having played with it for a while on PO, I don't think it's worthy of a spot on the initial list. Also going to go ahead and remove Mew.

I also agree with Cathy and I'd like to get this poll started as soon as possible, as I think we have all of our ban lists sorted out in Rising_Dusk's earlier post.

Based on my experience playing in a tier where everything else on Locopoke's banlist is not allowed, I definitely object to the removal of Darkrai from the list. Given its speed and the new sleep mechanic, something on my team is always deadweight for the rest of the match when it comes in. Of course, the same can be said of Breloom so that in itself is not enough. However, with Nasty Plot and flawless type coverage in only 2 moves, there is very little which can switch in on it, or even reliably revenge kill it.

I would also like to see Deoxys-A added to the list. With just two moves and Choice Specs (Psycho Boost and Psycho Shock; Superpower isn't even really needed anymore and neither is splitting EVs), it can OHKO almost anything not quad resistant to it (Scizor takes 85% minimum, Heatran takes 60% minimum and can't even revenge with a scarf if Deoxys is Timid). Base shit defenses doesn't matter when you're doing that kind of damage to everything with no set-up required. Sacrifice + Pursuit (and even then, only from certain pokemon who can either outspeed with a scarf or take a specs Psycho Shock first) is the only reliable way to make this thing go away.

 

[lati0s]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet in this topic (I don't think it has), but it stands to reason that the "no bans" proposal has already been implemented for anyone who chooses to play PO in the metagames where everything is allowed. Regardless of whether it's "officially" recognized or not (which is just Smogon playing politics, and has no bearing on the fact that people have been gaining experience there), the several weeks that PO has been online has probably given the necessary experience, even to the "no banlist" crowd, to prove that Mewtwo, Arceus, and the majority of the cover legends are actually overpowering. After all, I do not even see this group clamoring for us to adopt ubers as our standard tier of play, but rather to play with things before they're banned. This has happened to a large extent right under our nose while we have been trying to establish a ban list.

If you are opposed to a banlist on these grounds, but have experience playing, please weigh in based on that, and not just on principle.

I've been playing full wifi on PO (even got to #1 on the ladder for a little bit) and I definitely would not agree that a lot of pokemon are broken. The only thing that I would consider even close to broken is arceus but even it I feel can be dealt with through smart team building and battling strategy. The results are only preliminary however because of the unfortunately small number of players playing full wifi.

 

[Syberia]

I guess I need to stop making the same post in multiple threads. While it is possible that ubers is balanced, and I admit I haven't played it this time around, I'm guessing what you have is a situation in which a small number of pokemon (let's say 15 or so, am I correct so far) balance each other out, which makes for little variety.

On the flip side, if we arrive at a ban list that makes 50 or so pokemon viable (think Gen IV's OU tier), there is a lot more variety in what people can use. While it may not be competitively necessary to have this variety, it's what people want. Having an ubers tier that happens to be playable and more-or-less balanced (and Gen IV's was to a fairly large extent) is a huge bonus.

It's like comparing Gen I's OU tier, in which virtually every team used Alakazam, Starmie, Exeggutor/Jynx, and Tauros, with the 50-mon+ OU list we had last gen.

I think that it's a lot of fun to play, I want it to be our standard tier.

Then vote for no banlist :P. You're at least making me want to try ubers now, though.

 

[mtr]

Posting to say that I agree with Rising_Dusk's banlist, and I disagree with locopoke's suggestion that Darkrai be allowed in OU. It was decisively considered Uber in Gen IV, and there is not enough evidence that things have changed enough to consider it OU in Gen V.

Also, I've belabored the point many times, but we need to get away from the ideologically purist standpoint that OU is the "first balanced metagame", or at least change our definition of balanced. Perhaps 15 really strong, overcentralizing Pokemon balance each other out (like in Ubers), but to me, "balanced" is something like Gen IV OU, not Ubers or "Ubers Lite".

 

[locopoke]

I have played a good amount of Gen 5 on a functional simulator for the past 2 months, and I can safely conclude that Darkrai isn't outrageously broken to the point where he should be initially banned. Hell, he might not even be broken at all but we'll cross that bridge when we get there. When we're unsure of the tiering of a Pokemon, it's always best to leave it unbanned rather than banned. It's better in the long run that we leave it unbanned now rather than initially ban it and then decide in the middle of the gen that it deserves a test. That happened several times in gen 4 and it dragged the process on for a very long time. This also goes for Mew, as I've found it to be surprisingly beatable.

That being said, nobody else seems to be commenting on the ban lists so I think it's about time that we get moving on this. I'd like to see a poll go up later today or tomorrow. Anyone object to this?

 

[Colonel M]

No objection to a poll being made ASAP. Let's get to voting!

 

[jrrrrrrr]

From what I've heard from competitive players, there needs to be an Uber tier from the get go. But since it is just an initial ban list, I feel like we should reserve it only for those pokemon that are "obviously uber". My ban list is shorter than most, and I think it is really fair considering that we're talking about an initial ban list:

Mewtwo
Wobbuffet
Lugia
Ho-oh
Groudon
Kyogre
Rayquaza
Latios@Soul Dew
Latias@Soul Dew
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Giratina-O
Arceus
Reshiram
Zekrom

I have omitted the following from the DP uber list:
Garchomp- there are better Dragons now. I even got Sand Veil'd the other day and it wasn't a huge deal.
Salamence- better Dragons now. I don't know why this was even banned, but hey, I wasn't around for that.
Shaymin-S- This pokemon was never "obviously Uber" and there is even more legitimate question about it now
Wynaut- was never obviously Uber, just got a whole lot weaker due to its low Speed and lower HP.

Darkrai- 135 base Special Attack and an 80 base power Dark move aren't great in this gen with all the Steels and Fighters running around. Mach Punch's buffs alone make Darkrai a liability on your team. It may still prove to be Uber, but I don't think it crosses the line yet. I've faced off against several Darkrai and have yet to come across anything that destroyed me.

Mew- The problem with Mew in DP was not Mew itself, but what it could do under Dual Screens. Dual Screening isn't as great so far in BW, so I would be more than willing to give this a shot

Deoxys- The defense form was never "obviously Uber" even in DP. The Attack form has been weakened because of the prevalence of Sand teams and Stealth Rock taking away Focus Sashes (and an abundance of priority hurts it too). The Attack form is probably uber but I have faced a couple and they have been underwhelming. It will get KOs here and there, but it can't switch into anything. It's basically a liability on your team. The Normal form suffers from the same problems as Attack form. Strangely enough, Deoxys-S might be the most Uber form in this gen, and thats only if entry hazards prove to be as vital as they were in DP.

Just my two cents. I really think we need an initial banlist, but it should be very conservative.

This banlist is the same as locopoke's (Banlist #3), except it adds Lati@s with Soul Dew and removes Deoxys-S. This might not be an issue since Soul Dew isn't in BW yet, but it is certainly worth noting.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Alright, with the recent shuffling of power and so on, I'm going to push for the date of the vote to be moved to tomorrow, Monday, 10/25/2010. If there is any opposition to this, please make it known in this thread. I'll do all of the work for setting up the vote; we will be using Cathy's proposed IRV voting. This vote will carry on for 5 days, during which time I will devise a user-side script to manage the vote if none of the remaining admins do it first.

 

[M Dragon]

I fully support j7r list

 

[Firestorm]

It's really hard to support Wobbuffet on an initial list. You know shit will pop up about him later. Better to get his controversy over with at the beginning.

Edit: Oh and with Cathy leaving we'll need someone to step up and write the script that counts our votes or do it by hand. I agree with her and Jabba that a runoff vote is the best way to do this.

 

[Elevator Music]

It's really hard to support Wobbuffet on an initial list. You know shit will pop up about him later. Better to get his controversy over with at the beginning.

Edit: Oh and with Cathy leaving we'll need someone to step up and write the script that counts our votes or do it by hand. I agree with her and Jabba that a runoff vote is the best way to do this.

As much as I would love to just ban Wobb right away I have to agree with this. :( Wobb has actually gotten worse this gen on a number of levels anyways (actually its mostly just that shit hits harder and Encore was nerfed).


I'm quoting both parts of this post because I agree that we should use a runoff vote as well.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I really don't think that anything has changed regarding Wobbuffet. I have played against a couple of them and it is still a huge bitch, and it still renders Choice Scarf useless (among many other things). Either way, we should wait until the runoff vote until we argue about anything.

 

[Firestorm]

No, we're supposed to debate before the voting. Once the voting is done, the list that wins is what we use. I was saying that I would be unable to put a list with Wobbuffet anywhere near the higher ranked options because it's one of those Pokemon that will always pop up in people's minds again and again.