Pokemon rankings (Wobbuffet is #503)

[-Eddie-]

Okay, the closest I can now find is:

Kyogre @ Scarf
Modest, 128 Hp.|212 Sp. Att.|168 Def.
-Ice Beam

It OHKOs 100% of the time if Ray runs 256 defensive EVs and is an easy 2HKO with max EVs and a positive nature (it can OHKO, 37.7% of the time, but it does not need to.)

If Ray runs 256 defensive EVs and has a sash, none of +1 Outrage, Draco Meteor + Extremespeed, or Thunder can OHKO, and so obviously a Scarf set will not work.

If Ray runs max HP. and Sp. Def. with Sassy and holds a plate (LO will lose to recoil), Draco Meteor + Extremespeed and Thunder do not OHKO. If it holds a Choice Band, Outrage does not OHKO, as above, and Extremespeed obviously does not 2HKO, but if it holds Specs, neither Thunder nor Draco Meteor OHKO.



What have I missed this time?

252 HP/252 SpD Gentle Rayquaza survives slightly less than 50% of the time. If it has a choice scarf, it will always 2HKO with thunder (provided both hit).

Thunder followed by Outrage also does a minimum of 356, so it doesn't KO 100% of the time, but Thunder also only has to hit once instead of twice.

 

[Athenodoros]

Choice Scarf. I knew I forgot something.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Did my post just get overlooked?

I believe this Kyogre set will beat all Rayquazas:
Modest Kyogre @ Choice Scarf 252 HP 252 SpA 4 Def or Sp Def
- Icy Wind
- Ice Beam

Icy Wind 2HKOs the bulkiest Rayquaza (without a defensive berry) and 2nd turn will always outspeed Rayquaza from the speed drop (well unless it's a choice scarf DD Rayquaza... which obviously can't attack lol).

A Rayquaza with Yache or Sitrus (or Enigma) Berry can survive two icy winds, but not two ice beams, and a berry Rayquaza is outsped by Kyogre, so Kyogre will still 2HKO with ice beam.

A LO mixed Rayquaza with Draco Meteor can survive one icy wind and then extremespeed to KO, but then Ice Beam easily OHKOs.

A Yache DD Rayquaza cannot OHKO Kyogre even after 1 DD, so Ice Beam will 2HKO (Icy Wind won't). I.e. First turn = Ice Beam (Yache activates), DD. 2nd turn = Outrage, Ice Beam KO.

... I don't see what I missed here?

EDIT: sorry, my mistake... Yache DD Rayquaza CAN OHKO Kyogre with Outrage after 1 DD, but if I did my few calcs correctly, Kyogre has a high chance to 2HKO any Yache DD Rayquaza with Icy Wind depending on the EVs. Yache DD will need a lot of defensive EVs to ensure surviving two Icy Winds (lowering the chance of OHKOing with +1 Outrage significantly). I.e. A Yache (or sash, etc.) DD Rayquaza that can survive two icy winds will have a low chance to OHKO Kyogre with Outrage on 2nd turn. A DD Rayquaza that has a high chance to OHKO Kyogre with +1 Outrage will not survive 2 Icy Winds.

... Kyogre's EVs can probably be tweaked to better survive outrages/draco meteor+extremespeeds. I don't think Kyogre needs 252 SpA to ensure 2HKOing with non-Yache/Sitrus/Enigma berry Rayquaza (Ice beam easily OHKOs or 2HKOs Yache), but too lazy to tweak it myself.

 

[Athenodoros]

You've made the same mistake as the guy on the previous page: you do not know the set the other player is using, so you must have a guaranteed first move. Yours does not have a set first move. Or, it is possible you forgot the 'choice' aspect of 'choice scarf'. In fact, I'm 99% sure that Kyogre does not dominate Ray, and I think I could prove it:

Suppose Kyogre dominates Rayquaza (that's right, mathematicians, proof by contradiction time). Also, acknowledge that completely dominate implies more than 70% of the time, so we cannot use Blizzard. If it comes up against Scarf Ray with Outrage, it is 2HKO'd, so it must:

1) OHKO. This means leading with Ice Beam. However, this will lose to Thunder + Extremespeed Yache-Rayquaza, so this will not work.

2) 2+HKO. Kyogre has no priority moves, so it must stop Rayquaza attacking the second turn. It can lower it's speed, but it still needs to be faster, which means scarf. However, scarfed and leading with Ice Wind loses to LO + Thunder + Extremespeed. Therefore, it must status, which means Thunder Wave. However, it loses to Outrage + Lum Ray.

Therefore, Kyogre does not dominate Rayquaza.

On a side note, I was thinking of doing something like TTar: it would be reasonably easy for non-Steels, -Grounds and -Rocks. And I like TTar.

 

[Chinese Dood]

I'm pretty sure dominance refers to one set beating any set for another pokemon, with perfect knowledge. (i.e. the Kyogre user has ONE set Kyogre set, but has full knowledge of which set opponent is using, and even which move the opponent is going to be using)... isn't that correct? Read the first post of the thread. That's what I got from the first paragraph.

1) Thunder + extremespeed does not even KO Kyogre. From my calc, a Mild Focus Sash (or Yache if you want) Rayquaza with 252 Attack 252 SpA Thunder does 58.9% to 68.9% to Kyogre with 252 HP 4 Def. Extremespeed does 26.2 - 30.9% ... Total = 85.1% - 99.8% (Kyogre has 1HP left). Even if it was 100%, it's still much less than 50% chance.

In order to have the chance to KO, Rayquaza needs to hold something other than sash/yache.

2) Again, I'm assuming that the Kyogre user knows the opponent's set. Given that, obviously use Ice beam to OHKO.

 

[Banedon]

I didn't actually read the first post as you know your opponent's moveset once you enter battle, but that's what I assumed because without this assumption it'll be very difficult to dominate another Pokemon. I think we need obi to rule on this.

EDIT: Wait it's not so simple. Rayquaza CAN survive an Ice Beam, and Thunder has a 30% chance to paralyze (as well as miss ... lol). I don't know if Kyogre has a >50% chance of winning.
@Arceus - does it also dominate Palkia? With no weaknesses bar Dragon (against which Dragon Arceus will eat Outrage), I think it has a chance.

 

[Athenodoros]

Just to begin with, I have hitherto assumed that the setup is:
Two people each get Pokemon. They know what the other's is, but they do not know the set. They may then prepare by coming up with any moveset they like, which will give them the best chances of winning, after which they battle, 1v1. One person's Pokemon dominates the other's if he can use a set which the other player cannot beat, regardless of his set. This setup would imply that no knowledge of the opposition's moveset can be obtained, and you will notice that nowhere in the OP does a decision rest on the opposing Pokemon's moveset.

I didn't actually read the first post as you know your opponent's moveset once you enter battle, but that's what I assumed because without this assumption it'll be very difficult to dominate another Pokemon I think that's the point, although see above. I think we need obi to rule on this.

EDIT: Wait it's not so simple. Rayquaza CAN survive an Ice Beam, and Thunder has a 30% chance to paralyze I was ignoring that. Just because anything below a completely arbitrary point of 30% chance makes it impossible to work out. (as well as miss ... lol Kyogre brings rain). I don't know if Kyogre has a >50% chance of winning I don't know, but my money is on Kyogre.
@Arceus - does it also dominate Palkia? With no weaknesses bar Dragon (against which Dragon Arceus will eat Outrage), I think it has a chance. Not getting into this.

I'm pretty sure dominance refers to one set beating any set for another pokemon, with perfect knowledge. (i.e. the Kyogre user has ONE set Kyogre set, but has full knowledge of which set opponent is using, and even which move the opponent is going to be using)... isn't that correct? Read the first post of the thread. That's what I got from the first paragraph. Again, see above.

1) Thunder + extremespeed does not even KO Kyogre. From my calc, a Mild Focus Sash (or Yache if you want) Rayquaza with 252 Attack 252 SpA Thunder does 58.9% to 68.9% to Kyogre with 252 HP 4 Def. Extremespeed does 26.2 - 30.9% ... Total = 85.1% - 99.8% (Kyogre has 1HP left). Even if it was 100%, it's still much less than 50% chance. Really? I'm sure I ran that, but I do hate damage calculators. I'll look into it.

In order to have the chance to KO, Rayquaza needs to hold something other than sash/yache.

2) Again, I'm assuming that the Kyogre user knows the opponent's set. Given that, obviously use Ice beam to OHKO.

EDIT: Okay, I'm changing number one.
1) Given we know a Kyogre is about to use Ice Beam, and we can act like we know its set because we just need to prove every set can be beaten to continue the argument, how do we stop it killing Ray? Well, if it doesn't hold a Scarf, we can just hold a sash and Thunder twice. Easy victory. If it does hold a Scarf, we can hold a sash/berry, but then we don't have enough power to KO with an attack + Extremespeed, so we have to invest all EVs in defences, for the 50% chance it survives Ice Beam Note that this means there is no domination. 50% is not enough. However, to complete the line of argument, we could also hold a Choice Scarf, but we run into the same 50% problem.

QED.

Double EDIT: Now that I think about it, we really need to establish a baseline about hax, as well as agree on whether you know the opposition's moveset. A 30% chance of Paralysis is quite reasonable, so I think we need to work out what we will work with. I suggest the arbitrary figure of 25% (in which case the argument for Ray is strengthened), because nobody really expects Fire Blast to miss, but Focus Blast it is almost assumed. I'd also like to know what you think about knowing movesets. What I said before really is just what it seems to me to be the case.

 

[Banedon]

Rayquaza can miss Kyogre with Thunder because of Air Lock (I think).

Although nowhere in obi's original post does he assume knowledge of set, assuming you know your opponent's set would allow a lot more match-ups to resolve themselves into dominate / get dominated. Without this assumption, there'll be a lot of draws. We've already seen two examples: Mewtwo vs. Kyogre and Kyogre vs. Rayquaza.

Also >50% chance to win is domination (see first post). 100% chance to win = completely dominated.

 

[Athenodoros]

Oh my God. Yes it does.

Yes, but I think that it is more in spirit with the idea not to have knowledge of the set. And I have no problem with draws, and if they can be proven to be draws, like I tried before (although I must admit even I wasn't happy with that argument), I would say that is as good as proving domination.

And finally, I think we were working with complete domination, just because it was more interesting, although I agree that just domination would be easier.

Also, love the sig.

 

[Chinese Dood]

1) Given we know a Kyogre is about to use Ice Beam, and we can act like we know its set because we just need to prove every set can be beaten to continue the argument, how do we stop it killing Ray? Well, if it doesn't hold a Scarf, we can just hold a sash and Thunder twice. Easy victory. If it does hold a Scarf, we can hold a sash/berry, but then we don't have enough power to KO with an attack + Extremespeed, so we have to invest all EVs in defences, for the 50% chance it survives Ice Beam Note that this means there is no domination. 50% is not enough. However, to complete the line of argument, we could also hold a Choice Scarf, but we run into the same 50% problem.

Yeah, the OP does say to assume perfect play on both sides, no prediction, soo... whatever that means lol. But anyway, Modest Kyogre Ice Beam OHKOs non-Yache/Sash +Sp Def 252HP/SpDef Rayquaza 69% of the time. That looks like >50% to me. Non-Yache/Sash Rayquaza can't prevent it even with maxed out defences... I thought it'd be obvious with Kyogre's monstrous SpA and Rayquaza's 4x weakness...

Yeah, I wasn't looking at complete domination since I'm pretty sure there's no such thing with those Ubers, because from what I think anyway, complete dominance should include critical hits and paralysis from thunderbolt or burn from fire punch and things like that because those are still probability. Complete dominance should be 100%, not 90% from no paralysis.

 

[Athenodoros]

Yes, I worked it out: in order to survive Ice Beam without an item, Ray needs 416 EVs and a Gentle nature. With 92 EVs, Ray cannot 2HKO Kyogre with Thunder and Extremespeed. That means the chance of victory of Ray is 21% in that instance, which means Kyogre does dominate Ray: it wins 79% of the time with this set:

Kyogre @ Scarf
Modest, 128 Hp.|212 Sp. Att.|168 Def.
-Ice Beam

Which, curiously, is exactly what I said one page and 24 hours ago. Funny that. And god damn, I hope we've buried this.

 

[-Eddie-]

Yes, I worked it out: in order to survive Ice Beam without an item, Ray needs 416 EVs and a Gentle nature. With 92 EVs, Ray cannot 2HKO Kyogre with Thunder and Extremespeed. That means the chance of victory of Ray is 21% in that instance, which means Kyogre does dominate Ray: it wins 79% of the time with this set:



Which, curiously, is exactly what I said one page and 24 hours ago. Funny that. And god damn, I hope we've buried this.

I guess it just depends on your definition of domination. Personally, I don't think 79% is high enough, but I DO AGREE that your Kyogre set is probably as close as we are going to get.

Ugh...too much math, I think I'm going to take a break from this thread.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Yeah, sorry for stirring up stuffs and what not. I'll let Kyogre bury itself back underwater. :)

In other topics...
I do believe Poliwrath dominates over Heatran with:
Brave @ Leftovers
Damp
4 HP 252 Attack 252 Sp Def
- Mud Shot
- Earthquake

Always Mudshot first followed by Earthquake... guaranteed KO except extremely defensive EVs.

HP Electric/Grass/Psychic/etc., Heatran's best move against Poliwrath, will not 2HKO after leftovers unless it is holding Choice Specs or Life Orb, and both of those are outsped after Mud Shot.

Even extremely defensive Heatrans (as in Bold 252 HP 252 Def) are KO'd by Mud Shot + Earthquake more than 50% of the time, and as mentioned, they don't even 2HKO Poliwrath, meaning Poliwrath can Mudshot + EQ + EQ, which always KOs. Only extremely defensive ones with Shuca Berry will guarantee surviving I think, but Shuca is used up on the Mud Shot, not earthquake, so yah.

Heatran can't even explode to draw (I wonder if this dominance thing applies to explosions/self-destruct/Destiny Bond even?) due to Damp.

EDIT: Forgot to mention... A simple Choice Scarf Earthquake Poliwrath set won't do, because Shuca/Passho-Torment-Protect Tran will always beat any choiced Poliwrath.

 

[Athenodoros]

You'll need to have surf on your set, because you will fall victim to:

Heatran used Sub
Poliwrath used Mud Shot
Heatran's Sub took damage for Heatran!

Heatran used Torment
Poliwrath used Earthquake
Heatran's Sub faded away!

Heatran used Sub
Poliwrath used Mud Shot
Heatran's Sub took damage for Heatran!

Heatran used Hidden Power
It's Super Effective!
Poliwrath lost 45%
Heatran lost 10%
Poliwrath used EQ
Heatran's Sub faded away!
Poliwrath restored health with Leftovers

[And then the last two turns are repeated, and Heatran uses Hidden Power to finish you.]

Obviously there are the chances that Mud Shot breakes the Sub, and at 14.8% each, it is quite likely, but Surf prevents this whole series.

And I think Self-KO Clause is in effect, so even Explosion isn't a problem.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Yeah, surf (or water fall or brick break) certainly wouldn't hurt and would probably be better than mud shot's 95% accuracy (for breaking subs), but Brave with 0 SpA EVs Mudshot deals minimum 26.9% to a Calm 252 HP 252 Sp Def Heatran so it always breaks sub. The only way Mud Shot doesn't break sub (other than missing obviously) is if Heatran has Shuca. So it'd be like:

Turn 1. Tran Sub, Wrath Mud Shot, Shuca Activates (Sub intact)
Turn 2. Tran Torment, Wrath EQ. Sub Breaks.

Turn 3. Tran Sub, Wrath Mud Shot, Sub Breaks. ... Basically this means Tran can't sub anymore because Sub always breaks whether it's Mud Shot or EQ. Mud Shot is 4x effective on Heatran, Despite its low base power, it always breaks sub, I don't think I did the calc wrong there..

EDIT: By the same token, Politoed can most likely do something similar with different EVs, perhaps even a fully special one, but well whatever. We're talking about a bulky water type dominating over a pokemon that resist both the fire and steel STABs. If explosions for draw isn't even an issue, then many bulky water types without a 4x weakness (and not weak to dark pulse/earthpower/Earthquake/Crunch/Stone Edge/Flash Cannon/dragon pulse) can probably dominate over Heatran.

 

[Athenodoros]

No, I get 21.8% - 25.9%. God damn Heatran is bulky. But I think it's a moot point, because with Waterfall (better than Surf, you're right), even TormenTran can't beat it.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Oh you were right, I put 252 SpA instead of Sp Def lol. Yeah, just add Waterfall there... or just give Poliwrath Expert Belt instead of Leftovers and then give it a bit more bulk to survive 2 Hidden Powers without Leftovers (It's not too hard to be done since even without leftovers, 4 HP 252 Sp Def has a good chance to not be 2HKO'd, but like you said, there's no reason to try to figure that out, really).

 

[Vratix]

I like how in this you can find some (somewhat) obscure Pokemon that can dominate the high ranked OU pokes.

but: back to Kyogre vs Rayquaza thing.

Hide

Kyogre @Wide Lens
252 HP/252 SpD
-Blizzard

Wide Lens ups Blizzards Accuracy to 77% (which is more than 3/4) and Blizzard is guaranteed OHKO without Yache.

Whereas Rayquaza must run AT LEAST 20 SpA EVs for a chance at 2HKO (with max damage both times) and even with 252 in SpA Kyogre has a 1% chance of living 2 Thunders, provided both hit (air lock) and Paralyze doesn't interefere with an attack; whereas there is less chance for Blizzard to miss either time (67.4% - 79.4% against Ray@Yache with 128/0/0252/128/0)

Other than Choice Scarf this would be the "optimal" set in my opinion and this set is clearly in favor of neither.

I can't think of anyway to determine a Clear Winner




On a newer brighter note:

I would like to posit that Tauros@Focus Sash will dominate every Fire Pokemon

 

[Chinese Dood]

Wait, are you serious? A neutral attack Rayquaza with NO EVs will outspeed that Kyogre and 2HKO with outrage 99% of the time (minimum 201 damage out of 404).

Also Tauros does not even have any priority move. Infernape/Blaziken with Close Combat or Superpower followed by mach punch/vacuum wave will most likely do it even average intimidate. Or Reversal sets, Overheat, etc. Anyway, too many things it won't dominate I'm pretty sure without priority moves.

 

[Mattman324]

Bulbasaur hangs on with Focus Sash and puts it to sleep with Sleep Powder. So, better give it Sleep Talk too.

Good point. Better adjust it.

EDIT: Let's post it here, actually.

Hide

BULBASAUR: Flame Plate, Judgement, kills. Sleep Talk in case of Sleep Powder, no other moves.

IVYSAUR: Look up.

VENUSAUR: Venusaur MIGHT survive with the Occa berry, but cannot OHKO with EQ or any Hidden Power. Flame Plate with Judgement/Sleep Talk again.

CHARMANDER: Splash Plate, Judgement.

CHARMELEON: Look up.

CHARIZARD: Rock Plate. Zard must run a Scarf, and does not do enough damage with EQ, but Judgement will OHKO.

SQUIRTLE: Zap Plate, Judgement.

WARTORTLE: Look up.

BLASTOISE: Use the SPLASH plate, Rain Dance, Thunder, you resist all special attacks, run some Defense with it, you will win.

CATERPIE: Flame Plate

METAPOD: Look up.

BUTTERFREE: Choice Scarf and Ancientpower. Outspeed always, and KO. If it Focus Sashes into the Sleep Powder, it will not be able to KO you in 5 turns with LO HP Fighting (that I know of), so you win.

WEEDLE: See Caterpie.

KAKUNA: Great Kakuna Man be damned, see Caterpie,

BEEDRIL: Again, Flame Plate and blast it with Judgement.

PIDGEY: Zap Plate.

PIDGEOTTO: Zap Plate.

PIDGEOT: Zap Plate, use Rain Dance/Thunder so it cannot stall you with Fly and Toxic if it has an Electric resist berry.

RATTATA: Fist Plate, use Extremespeed to stop potential FEAR strategy.

RATICATE: See Rattata.

SPEAROW: See Pidgey.

FEAROW: See Pidgeot.

EKANS: Spooky Plate, spam EQ.

ARBOK: See Ekans.

PIKACHU: EQ one time. Cheri Berry for Focus Sash/Thunder Wave.

RAICHU: Choice Scarf (to avoid CS Surf), EQ a few times with the Earth Plate.

SANDSHREW: Splash Plate.

SANDSLASH: Look up.

NIDORAN FEMALE: EQ, Chople Berry for HP Fighting.

NIDORINA: Look up.

NIDOQUEEN: ...I THINK the Nidoran Female Strategy works Superpower or FB instead of HP Fight though.

NIDORAN MALE: Look at Nidoran Female.

NIDORINO: Look up.

NIDOKING: Again, I believe the same strategy works. Although it will be using Focus Blast instead of HP Fight.

CLEFARY: Fist Plate, Judgement, Sleep Talk on the set for Sing.

CLEFABLE: Look up.

 

[Vratix]

Wait, are you serious? A neutral attack Rayquaza with NO EVs will outspeed that Kyogre and 2HKO with outrage 99% of the time (minimum 201 damage out of 404).

Also Tauros does not even have any priority move. Infernape/Blaziken with Close Combat or Superpower followed by mach punch/vacuum wave will most likely do it even average intimidate. Or Reversal sets, Overheat, etc. Anyway, too many things it won't dominate I'm pretty sure without priority moves.

it's nice to know that you can correctly interpret sarcasm through italics.
also nice to know how civil you can be to strangers


as far as the priority move thing, I forgot about infernape, I was thinking about heatran specifically because of the Poliwrath deal a few posts up. on that note Blaziken also can consistently win with @Sash with Vacuum Wave. Mix Magmortar with mach punch has approximately a 1% chance to 2HKO with Fire Blast and Mach Punch (if both hit and get max damage over a rather large spread).


However, Bulky Tauros-sets still outspeed every other fire pokemon except entei and ninetales. Since Tauros can survive a fire blast and a E-speed/quick attack respectively from them (and Arcanine if you were interested) without running a fully bulky set Tauros safely wins with a modicum of speed investment barring crits. Also, since Magmortar's chances of winning are well under 30% Tauros "dominates" every fire pokemon that is non-fighting.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Hm, after a bit of calculation, I'm almost thinking that that Relaxed (or maybe bold/impish) Intimidate Arcanine with 252 HP 252 Def @ Leftovers (or Enigma berry or whatever) dominates Tauros with: Will-o-wisp / Morning Sun / Filler attacking moves.

-1 Attack Adamant 252 Attack Choice Band Tauros Stone Edge or Earthquake does a max of 51% after intimidate barring crits. If WoW hits after first turn, attack is cut in half, so just morning sun as necessary and attack with whatever to make the process faster.

Giga Impact does a max of 57%.

EDIT: if Tauros is holding Lum, it cannot 3HKO Arcanine (holding leftovers or enigma berry or sitrus berry) with Stone Edge or Earthquake, so Arcanine can WoW twice (0.75*0.75 = 56%, still great than 50% accuracy) and then morning sun on 3rd turn.

EDIT: OK, actually maybe not. Choice Specs Surf (or rain dance + surf with rest, even better) Tauros will beat the arcanine I mentioned, lol. So arcanine maybe can't actually dominate.

 

[Vratix]

Tauros@ Leftys/Lum (&or Chesto) berry
Anger Point + 252HP
-Substitute
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Return

Solves that Arcanine easily enough
Sleep Talk probably is only necessary if the arcanine is max attack/max speed.
248 Spe EVs on neutral nature out-speed 252+Nature on Arcanine

 

[Athenodoros]

How do you plan to KO Arcanine @ Specs with Overheat? In order to do so you need to run max Sp. Def. and HP. or hold a sash, and use Rest on the first turn-clearly not a winning strategy- or outrun it, which sounds like it would lose to other sets.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Tauros@ Leftys/Lum (&or Chesto) berry
Anger Point + 252HP
-Substitute
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Return

Solves that Arcanine easily enough
Sleep Talk probably is only necessary if the arcanine is max attack/max speed.
248 Spe EVs on neutral nature out-speed 252+Nature on Arcanine

I fail to see how that set beats that Arcanine easily. Recall that arcanine still has 2 filler moves. Now I'm thinking Howl + Flame Wheel/Return. Return won't 3HKO Arcanine (EDIT: in fact it won't even 4HKO Leftovers Arcanine), so Arcanine can easily Howl and Morning Sun until it is +6. Then Flame Wheel/Return will 2HKO at +6.

Rain Dance Surf Modest Tauros (as funny as that sounds) will beat that Arcanine though, lowering Morning Sun's recovery to 25% while boosting surf's power for easy 3HKO (high chance of 2HKO).