*Facepalm*. Bounce Gyarados. I'll respond to SJCrew's deleted post as well.
I somehow doubt that you actually tested it, but let's pretend that you did.
He obviously took the time to test this out a bit, and I can attest to it:
That "optimal" EV spread yielded a very disappointing test run last night. I used to be able to set up on stuff like Burungeru and Vaporeon around the clock, but then I found them doing like 30-40% every hit.
252 HP / 252 Careful Roobushin vs. 0 SpA Boiling Water from Vaporeon - 21.3% - 25.4%
Seems semi-accurate if you ask me, considering Boiling Water is popular on many Bulky Water's.
Also, call me crazy, but I haven't seen too many Gyarados or Salamence trying to switch in on Roopushin. Like, not at all, ever. I guess most players realize they're going to lose their Gyarados/Mence that way?
I've rarely seen Gyarados come in on the first place, and the only time I'd adamantly switch Gyarados into Roobushin is for the "revenge" when someone was knocked out. The point of that Bulk Up + Stone Edge can take down Gyarados, or leave it very weakened, is too much of a threat to consider. With Salamence, you want it to take as minimal damage as possible when you're setting up Dragon Dance or just going for the Mixed. It doesn't matter if your name is Machamp or Nageki: you're not staying in on Salamence either way because
Draco Meteor unresisted fucking hurts.
Seems like the pot calling the black kettle, so to speak.
361 HP and 216 SpDef doesn't fall to many non STAB SE Special Attacks.
Minimum SpAtk Berungeru does 23%-27% to 216 SpDef Adamant Roobushin with Shadow Ball. Don't see why you can't set up on that.
Why is Berungeru going to use Shadow Ball on Roobushin? Unless it expects another Berungeru switch-in, it's going to use Surf or Boiling Water; the latter to inflict a Burn on Roobushin. The Careful nature helps Roobushin set up easier on the minimal Special Attack Pokemon. That's primarily the main thing SJCrew is arguing. Setting up on Rankurusu, for example, is obviously a hopeless cause.
It does 17% - 20% to Careful 252/252 Roobushin. +2 Stone Edge (632 Attack) does 42-50% to Bold 252/252 Burungeru (not sure that's the best spread), who can stall you out with Recover. I don't see where the lack of power is worth it.
Why stop at +2? Not to mention; there's always the crit chance or Berungeru has to risk the threat of a Payback, which is obviously going to do more against it. Then, if it's Guts instead of Iron Fist, and in case Berungeru burns Roobushin, it's going to suffer even more damage in the process. While Roobushin is going to lose 6% health every turn, and may eventually die, you're sitting against a Pokemon that has +2 Attack AND a Guts Boost. Now your response has to be something like Gengar or Latias, and if any of those Pokemon were picked off previously with Tyranitar, your team can be put in trouble. Drain Punch is a 2HKO on Skarmory while Brave Bird does 27.5% - 32.4%. To calculate it out, Roobushin loses 114 - 134, while Skarmory loses 186 - 219. It's not quite full health restored, but it keeps Roobushin going. Skarmory loses about 28 HP, then 41 HP from Stealth Rock. To conclude on that, Skarmory's left with 79 HP.
Max. Unless it's naive to run Leftovers. Mach Punch can clear Skarmory by doing 100 damage.
Of course, much like yourself, I'm talking a situational theory, but it is relevant because of physical walls that normally step into take on Roobushin. If you're adamant enough to leave your bulky Water in on Roobushin and spam Boiling Water, you're in for a world of hurt. If it's Vaporeon or Swampert, Roobushin is just going for the Drain Punch after it gets its +1. If it's Berungeru, it better be able to prepare itself for situations that it has Payback.
Guts vs. Iron Fist also occurs, but you see my point.
Gyarados's Taunt also stops it from boosting it's Defense. Bounce would do more than twice the damage of Waterfall, while wasting Roobushin's Stone Edges and recovering with Leftovers.
If you Taunt a +0 Roobushin, Gyarados loses about 75% of its health. That's a very dangerous situation to put yourself under.
Bounce Gyarados is also ineffective. While you may force Roobushin out, I could simply switch in a Steel-type to take the Bounce (especially since it's coming from a Bulky Gyarados, which means piss weak damage) and just sit against you. Handling Bounce from a +0 Gyarados isn't difficult, and the absolute worst threat is the chance of paralysis.
Note that Careful Roobushin is not my idea. No one (but apparently SJCrew) would run Roobushin with no attack investment.
I disagree. Slightly. There are different merits with both of them. The Adamant Roobushin's advantage is that it's easier to make it useful as a check for Doryuuzu and making it offensively a threat at +1. Careful Roobushin's advantage is that it takes advantage of bulky Water-types. 0 SpA Suicune can't 3HKO Roobushin at +1. +2 Bulk Up Drain Punch can 2HKO Suicune with Stealth Rock and Sandstorm in play.
Maybe you guys (or just Champagne) don't see Roopushin as a top threat because you're so used to him falling to every special attack in the book. The max/max Careful spread really is the best he can run on a Bulk Up set, especially with status being absolutely everywhere, turning him into a complete monster with just one turn of setup.
Roobushin is a threat. To argue that he is a top threat might be pushing it a little, as I can agree with him on that premise.
I can concede that at the time being on Pokemon Online, most teams are physical based. This makes Bulk Up Roobushin easy to set up. However, when it comes to massive special threats, Roobushin does have to run (unless it's like Sazandora, in which case "lol" at it). This can be a problem under some circumstances where it's mid game and you're trying to set up Roobushin, or if their late game sweeper consists of a heavy special attacker. Think Rankurusu here, who is perhaps the biggest nightmare of late game. Trick Room makes it the fastest Pokemon: only Nattorei can logically be faster than it, and its bulk allows it to set it up with relative ease. Psychic / Focus Blast / Shadow Ball annihilates just about everything in the book with Stealth Rock layed down, and Life Orb's lack of recoil and no taking of Sandstream damage is significant. It all comes down to what the opponent also uses in the team to be frankly honest, but I don't see how this would make Roobushin worse than, say, Machamp for example like j7r says. Even if you run Guts on Machamp, now you're forced to use... Cross Chop. That's pretty bad.
Keep in mind that you are making a case against a set you have never used with theories not substantiated in practice. This "I don't do simulators" crap isn't going to stack up as an argument vs. people who are actually using the sets you're debunking and experiencing some degree of success with them.
WiFi is also competitive. Call it a straw man that I'm saying it, but you also pointed to the simulator ordeal, which isn't much better of a situation to make arguments for either, at least for the current time being. Sometimes, the WiFi environment is also different from the simulator environment due to explicit breeding conditions and event limitations, etc. It doesn't drastically change the playing field, but it makes a difference on what is or isn't on a team.
EDIT:
Your opinion is really not important at all,
This is poor sportsmanship. Since at least he has used the Pokemon, and theorymon is by no means "illegal" nor "wrong" whatsoever, he is perfectly entitled to his opinion, much like yourself. Sorry to drag this off-topic, but I could also say your opinion back how QC works can just be ignored and I couldn't care about it whatsoever, but given that I am an open minded person with opinions, no matter how ridiculous some of them are, I listen to them with an open mind. It seems you need to learn how to do so, even if you are arguing against him.
What he's saying is that, at a glance, Careful Roobushin doesn't look effective, and I can somewhat agree with him. You lower your Attack to take bulky Waters better, but you also lose the immediate power that you can have. Doryuuzu isn't OHKOed by +0 Mach Punch, but at the same time max Attack requires less Life Orb recoil from Doryuuzu than Careful does in return. It's called a trade-off.
That's about all I can bear for now.
