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Espeon
- Thread starter Move_Zero
- Start date
Wish has already been proven to be a relatively poor option on Espeon. Yawn over Wish deals with Tyranitar better than Grass Knot does.
Yeah, I actually like this as a sort of alternative to my set... (...well, considering it's mostly the same). Although using 3 slots on Wish/Sub/Protect kind of seems like a waste, especially considering Espeon has decent offensive potential with that great 130 Sp. Atk. :0
So here's the updated version of my set that I mentioned earlier, the offensive entry hazard stopper:
Espeon @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Timid Nature, 4 / 252 / 252
- Psycho Shock / Psychic
- Yawn
- Grass Knot / Protect
- HP Fire / Protect
...so... is this maybe worth adding to the OP, BTW? :0
Agreeing that wish is terrible on espeon. I currently run psycho shock/reflect/trick/grass knot @ choice specs (i went to bed after changing the moveset). I'm about to get online and start testing it. The reason I think trick could work is because you can't hurt stuff like nattorei and forry. They stay in after you bounce their spikes and start gyro balling you, which hurts even after a reflect. It also screws with ttar and weavile switchins (although you still die).
Reflect is huge on it. My tean sweeps with urugamoth, so having a reflect up while raising my spdef is clutch. Massive sweeps.
Specs are cool because you just miss out on 1hkoing swampert with grass knot.
This guy is ridiculously effective. Top-tier OU for sure.
Reflect is huge on it. My tean sweeps with urugamoth, so having a reflect up while raising my spdef is clutch. Massive sweeps.
Specs are cool because you just miss out on 1hkoing swampert with grass knot.
This guy is ridiculously effective. Top-tier OU for sure.
If I understood correctly, Trick is illegal with Magic Mirror since Trick is a tutor move in Gen IV. This kinda stinks, but if "Gray" is anything like the last couple generations, Magic Mirror Espeon's plight is might only be temporary.
Another thought, though. On your set, banryu, would Psychic be a bit better of a primary option over Psycho Shock? Not only for the extra 10 base power, but (I don't have a calculator on me right now, so this is just a thought) if Roobushin managed to get a Bulk Up in, you may have a real issue on your hands id Psycho Shock can't OHKO it. I may be wrong, but I think that Psychic will always OHKO it. As I said, I don't have a calc right now, but once I get it I'll figure it out. Just a thought on my mind.
EDIT
Got my calculator! If my calculations are correct, then here's the outputs against various Bulk Up versions, assuming Timid 252/252 spread:
Psychic
vs. 252 HP/4 SpD Adamant: 101.3% - 119.2%
LO vs. 252 HP/4 SpD Adamant: 131.4% - 154.5%
(in case someone runs a SpD set of some sort)
vs. 252 HP/252 SpD Adamant Roobushin: 74.2% - 87.3%
vs. 252 HP/ 252 SpD Careful: 67.6% - 79.5%
LO vs. 252 HP/252 SpD Adamant: 96.1% - 113.1%
LO vs. 252 HP/252 SpD Careful: 87.5% - 102.9%
Psycho Shock
vs. 252 HP/4 Def Adamant: 66.6% (0.o) - 78.4%
vs. 252 HP/4 Def Adamant +1: 44.9% - 52.8%
LO vs. 252 HP/4 Def Adamant: 86.3% - 101.6%
LO vs. 252 HP/4 Def Adamant +1: 58.0% - 68.2%
Psycho Shock already has a bit of a hard time going through Roobushin's higher base 95 Def stat as opposed to his 65 SpD one, but if you switch in while he Bulk's up, you're in big trouble. While you do 2HKO Roobushin with Psycho Shock if he's +1, he murders you with Payback the first turn. He also does 30.1% - 35.5% with a +1 Adamant Mach Punch, is case you were curious. With the massive threat that is Roobushin, I'd think Psychic is better. Just as a note, LO Psycho Shock does 58.1% - 68.4% to standard 252 HP/252 Def Bold WishBliss, so it depends on your team I suppose. Finally Espeon can stand its own against fatty, so that effect alone might make it worth it.
Another thought, though. On your set, banryu, would Psychic be a bit better of a primary option over Psycho Shock? Not only for the extra 10 base power, but (I don't have a calculator on me right now, so this is just a thought) if Roobushin managed to get a Bulk Up in, you may have a real issue on your hands id Psycho Shock can't OHKO it. I may be wrong, but I think that Psychic will always OHKO it. As I said, I don't have a calc right now, but once I get it I'll figure it out. Just a thought on my mind.
EDIT
Got my calculator! If my calculations are correct, then here's the outputs against various Bulk Up versions, assuming Timid 252/252 spread:
Psychic
vs. 252 HP/4 SpD Adamant: 101.3% - 119.2%
LO vs. 252 HP/4 SpD Adamant: 131.4% - 154.5%
(in case someone runs a SpD set of some sort)
vs. 252 HP/252 SpD Adamant Roobushin: 74.2% - 87.3%
vs. 252 HP/ 252 SpD Careful: 67.6% - 79.5%
LO vs. 252 HP/252 SpD Adamant: 96.1% - 113.1%
LO vs. 252 HP/252 SpD Careful: 87.5% - 102.9%
Psycho Shock
vs. 252 HP/4 Def Adamant: 66.6% (0.o) - 78.4%
vs. 252 HP/4 Def Adamant +1: 44.9% - 52.8%
LO vs. 252 HP/4 Def Adamant: 86.3% - 101.6%
LO vs. 252 HP/4 Def Adamant +1: 58.0% - 68.2%
Psycho Shock already has a bit of a hard time going through Roobushin's higher base 95 Def stat as opposed to his 65 SpD one, but if you switch in while he Bulk's up, you're in big trouble. While you do 2HKO Roobushin with Psycho Shock if he's +1, he murders you with Payback the first turn. He also does 30.1% - 35.5% with a +1 Adamant Mach Punch, is case you were curious. With the massive threat that is Roobushin, I'd think Psychic is better. Just as a note, LO Psycho Shock does 58.1% - 68.4% to standard 252 HP/252 Def Bold WishBliss, so it depends on your team I suppose. Finally Espeon can stand its own against fatty, so that effect alone might make it worth it.
Great to know, thanks! I was getting kind of tired of not knowing the difference much. :0 Well... As you say, I think it depends on your team here. As I mentioned previously, my Espeon set is NOT meant to sweep or anything, just to take down specific threats. So in this case, if Roopushin is a bigger problem to the team than Blissey is, you use Psychic, easy choice. If you opt for Psycho Shock, however, it looks like you can 2HKO both Roopushin AND Blissey, provided Roopushin comes in on you and not the other way around. All around, I'd say both are still good options depending on what your team needs, wouldn't you?
HP Fire can also handle those two easily.
I'm starting to realize that Yawn is basically utility, a substitute for coverage moves that Espy wants but doesn't get. It forces out things that Espeon can't deal with using its current moveset. So if you run HP Fighting to hit Tyranitar, then yawn gets Forry and Natt out of your hair. If you want HP Fire to hit those two, then Yawn is for Tyran. I AM starting to wonder if Grass Knot is really necessary, but it's probably just good to keep it around for Hippo and stuff.
Man, I normally don't get so conceited with the sets I make, but I'm really liking how this Espeon set is shaping up... =w= fufufufu~
Hidden Power Fire ?__?
I find grass knot indispensible. Swampert and hippo are extremely common users of stealth rock and it wrecks them both.
I'll try HP fire over yawn when i get home, and hopefully the beta server goes back up (that /tr/ server sucks hard). I've been resisting it because you can't just choose your HP in-game and i play mostly on wifi, but who knows, maybe i'll get lucky.
I'll try HP fire over yawn when i get home, and hopefully the beta server goes back up (that /tr/ server sucks hard). I've been resisting it because you can't just choose your HP in-game and i play mostly on wifi, but who knows, maybe i'll get lucky.
Well, you can SR for Magic Mirror Espeon until it comes with HP Fire 70. It will be much easier to do once we get to know how the RNG works in B/W.
And as of now it appears MM Espeon can't have any egg moves nor moves exclusive to Eevee, so you technically shouldn't even use Yawn !__!
How is that the case? I thought it was confirmed that dream world abilities can be bred. If a female Espeon is bred, an Eevee with anticipation should result, which would then evolve into Espeon with Magic Mirror, logically.
Problem is, it looks like all of the Pokemon obtained as events from the Dream World will have their genders set. Our only hope is that they either give us a female Espeon (being the most feminine Eeveelution) or giving us an Espeon with Yawn, Baton Pass, and Wish. Neither of those seem very likely.
Sure, try it. Although honestly I think Psychic STAB / HP Fire / Grass Knot / Yawn is gonna give you the best results.
For the most part, I share your philosophy about Hidden Power, but there are just some Pokemon (IE, most Electric Pokemon) that absolutely just need it to be able to hit important things and not get walled... Espeon is one of them. :0 It can't do crap to Steels without an appropriate Hidden Power.
As the others state, we don't technically know that yet. However, Reflect seems like a fairly decent alternative to Yawn. Well.... the next best thing it can use in that slot, anyway. :0 I suppose you could always run 4 attacks and have Psychic AND Psycho Shock if you don't want Reflect though.
Egg moves are another story, but if it's at all possible to get a DW Eevee, it should be able to learn any needed level-up moves as an Eevee, then evolve into a DW Espeon with those moves.
Checking Serebii, it seems that DW Eevee hasn't been released yet, which is a problem for the time being, but if/when it's released, it should make at least some of the desired combinations possible. If DW Eevee is never released, that's a problem, but all unconfirmed DW Pokemon have the same concern, and at least we know that Espeon itself will be available regardless. In the meantime, it should work fine on tiers such as PO'd DW ladder.
Checking Serebii, it seems that DW Eevee hasn't been released yet, which is a problem for the time being, but if/when it's released, it should make at least some of the desired combinations possible. If DW Eevee is never released, that's a problem, but all unconfirmed DW Pokemon have the same concern, and at least we know that Espeon itself will be available regardless. In the meantime, it should work fine on tiers such as PO'd DW ladder.
You all have it all wrong. Pure CalmPass is now the best set.
With Espeon's new ability, it's immune to Pseudo-Hazes (Roar, Whirlwind) and even Taunt. The only real way of stopping Espeon is damaging it through attacks. Calm Mind takes care of Special Attacks, so you get Reflect to take care of Physical Attacks. Calm Mind up and Baton Pass to a better sweeper.
The key is to switch in at the right time. Do not switch in on a faster physical attacker, slower one is preferred so you could set up reflect before it hits you hard. Then proceed to Calm Mind up, healing with Morning Sun/Wish/Rest whenever necessary.
Espeon: Calm Mind, Baton Pass, Reflect, Morning Sun/Wish/Rest. EVs on defenses and speed.
With Espeon's new ability, it's immune to Pseudo-Hazes (Roar, Whirlwind) and even Taunt. The only real way of stopping Espeon is damaging it through attacks. Calm Mind takes care of Special Attacks, so you get Reflect to take care of Physical Attacks. Calm Mind up and Baton Pass to a better sweeper.
The key is to switch in at the right time. Do not switch in on a faster physical attacker, slower one is preferred so you could set up reflect before it hits you hard. Then proceed to Calm Mind up, healing with Morning Sun/Wish/Rest whenever necessary.
Espeon: Calm Mind, Baton Pass, Reflect, Morning Sun/Wish/Rest. EVs on defenses and speed.
No YOU have it all wrong. >.> (...or were you not talking to me?)
...okay I lie, that sounds pretty kickass. Still, I wouldn't say that I have it all wrong, I'd simply say that you have it just slightly more right than I do (again assuming that you were talking to me and not the OPoster).
And anyway, even 252 / 252 in HP / Defense (might as well, you don't care about Taunters outspeeding you right?) isn't gonna stop things like Tyranitar, Banded especially, from eating Espy for brekkers. So it's definitely not perfect... it's surely quite good though.
Huh?
CB Tyranitar Crunch vs Espeon, 252 HP / 252 Def, +Def Nature, Reflect up: 65.3% - 77.2%
Also, Espeon has Baton Pass - why would it stay in on Tyranitar anyway? It can escape Pursuit easily.
I think that ScarfTar would be the bigger issue. In my PO experience, that's almost the only Tyranitar variant I've seen, especially since Lati@s exist and TTar is a check to both. Also, Espeon, like every supporter this go round, suffers from 4-moveslot syndrome pretty badly. Unless you're specializing in Calm Mind passing, you probably won't have the room for Baton Pass. I'm thinking like banryu's set.
No offense but that kind of goes without saying, what with it being impossible to reflect an attack that doesn't target you.
I prefer to run dual screens, Psychic and Grass Knot. It's actually kind of funny. Reflect on the switch and if the TTar tries to pursuit you, you can 2HKO it with Grass Knot pretty easily. It's not a full proof strat cause they can easily opt for Crunch instead. I got one that dried to set up Dragon Dance on me.
I have to delete this post permanently because it's a spambot, but it goes to show just how quickly the spambots are learning Pokemon.
They'll probably be winning tournaments in two years.
Edit: another spambot I overlooked --
It even referenced someone else in the thread, but its sig was clearly advertising spam.
Actually, I haven't seen that many ScarfTars on the DW tier on PO, but ScarfTar won't OHKO even Espeon, even when Reflect isn't up. As for the 4-moveslot syndrome thing, what I posted was in response to what Banryu said about Choice Band Tyranitar eating the Calm Mind/Baton Pass/Reflect/Wish set for breakfast - since the set has both Baton Pass and Reflect, I was simply pointing out that it wasn't true.
Does it completely? I realize that it's a pretty obvious fact I'm pointing out, I just think it's important to take note that Espeon isn't immune to getting set up on by stat-up sweepers. :0 Especially things like Dragonite, which with Multi-Scale it can't KO before it gets a few boosts off. It could be one of those things that you don't consider if you're thinking that Espeon is 'immune to non-attacking moves'-- you get into the mindset that directly damaging it and nothing else is the only way to get rid of it.
...okay, so I was completely wrong. Cool! =D
In any case, I actually like the pure CalmPass set, since Tyranitar isn't as big a threat to it as I thought he'd be. Of course, you're basically forced to invest 252 / 252 in your Defenses to survive it, the lack of Speed could hurt, but... :0 Then again, it probably doesn't matter. If it can tank hits like CBTar Crunch with the Reflect up, I figure it can take pretty much anything once with Reflect and a couple of CMs. The biggest boon with the set is that it's immune to Taunt, which is great because... no attacking moves (clearly why he designed the set that way, so this is obvious, but...) I think this set may become the new EspyJump standard, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of sets like mine floating around.
LOLLL. I dunno, I liked the fridge haiku... or maybe I'm just biased because he liked my set, who knows~
Umm, Choice Band Tyranitar calculations don't matter- Espeon is faster and can Baton Pass out. Has anyone tested passing to Agility Lucario? Not sure of the Hidden Power to use, but Aura Sphere + Shadow Ball gives good coverage. Oh, and how viable would full Baton Pass teams be now that we have Espeon? I mean, it reflects Whirlwind, Roar, Taunt, etc, so it is basically Suction Cups for the purposes stated, except Espeon can Baton Pass and Toxic can't hit it. Espeon (Calm Mind), Vaporeon (Acid Armor), Ninjask (Speed Boost/SD) shouldn't actually be too difficult to set up if you can predict. +1 Vaporeon is basically faster than all Taunt users if you invest some speed, so you can Baton Pass to Espeon and fuck them over. Gliscor gets mention for handling Tyranitar, resisting Bug, and having Taunt of its own, Rock Polish, and Swords Dance.
Even though Ninjask is still pretty much the fastest thing alive, with the introduction of Mischeivous Heart Taunt, I can't say that it'll really be as effective. :0 It could definitely still work, but you'd need like a sure-fire counter to the likes of Erufuun, Tornelos/Voltolos, and any others that I forgot about... Ninjask will probably have to start carrying X-Scissor over Sub to deal with Erufuun, but gets completely walled by the other two I mentioned. Even with Erufuun, it will have to nail it on the switch for it to work. If Any of these guys comes in on Ninjask's boosts, it's MH-Taunt = autofail, no chance to pass whatsoever. Obviously Vappy has the same problem, without the luxuries of Speed and hitting anyone supereffective (plus it's weak to both Erufuun's and Voltolos' STABS). Espeon definitely helps with that, but if the others can't pass to it in the first place then what good is it?
Understand that I'm not outright saying this won't work, I'm just trying to identify the risks involved in such a strategy. I think full Baton Pass teams are going to start coming extinct, and half-pass teams with like, a couple of sweepers to recieve the boosts and one or two counters to the MH Taunt-users are going to become the most we'll ever see of those again.
I exist! I think he deleted the spambot's quote cause it quoted me oddly. Unless I'm missing something else that the actual bot said... And I do like the set. =)
Other than that oddness, I'm going to theorymon here (if that's the proper verb). Since many people try abuse Mischievous Heart status moves, mainly Erufuun's Stun Spore but also Sableye's Will-O-Wisp on Dream World, I woult think that Espeon would be a good partner for Doryuuzu, or any other sweeper for that matter. With Espeopn and Doryuuzu, however, Expeon can, in a way, counter Roobushin trying to Mach Punch Doryuuzu. This also would work for Lucario, some Tyranitar, and other Fighting-Weak set-up sweepers (I'm going to try Swords Dance Ononokusu, but that's just me.)
