blaziken would be fine with claw sharpen. A set with CS, HJK, Blaze kick and stone edge really appreciates the accuracy boost it gives to all moves
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Claw Sharpen
- Thread starter Banryu
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Blazkien can also baton pass claw sharpen rather than just sweeping with it, but he might as well. Ninjask can pass it too. Both, in one turn, can give a +1 Atk / +1 Spe / +1 Acc boost that is pretty amazing, especially for a late game sweeper like Metagross. But there is also another pokemon that stands out, and it's also a hustle user.
Claw Sharpen Reciever (based on Hustlekiss)
Togekiss @ Life Orb
Naughty 252 Atk / 248 Sp.A / 8 Spe
- Extremespeed
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot / Cheer Up / Roost
- HP Ground
Reasons to use this set:
- Accurate STAB Extremespeed off 490 Atk at +1, plus Life Orb
- Extremespeed's new priority puts it above other priority attacks minus Fake Out, meaning it's really difficult to revenge (and you're naturally bulky)
- Outruns + Speed base 85s at +1
- 100% accurate Fire Blast for resistors.
- OHKO Infernape, Weavile, Metagross, and others from 100% health
Since the move is so passable, being a TM for BP'ing Pokemon ranging from Furret to Aianto, I'm sure there are many other viable Claw Sharpen recievers out there too.
Claw Sharpen Reciever (based on Hustlekiss)
Togekiss @ Life Orb
Naughty 252 Atk / 248 Sp.A / 8 Spe
- Extremespeed
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot / Cheer Up / Roost
- HP Ground
Reasons to use this set:
- Accurate STAB Extremespeed off 490 Atk at +1, plus Life Orb
- Extremespeed's new priority puts it above other priority attacks minus Fake Out, meaning it's really difficult to revenge (and you're naturally bulky)
- Outruns + Speed base 85s at +1
- 100% accurate Fire Blast for resistors.
- OHKO Infernape, Weavile, Metagross, and others from 100% health
Since the move is so passable, being a TM for BP'ing Pokemon ranging from Furret to Aianto, I'm sure there are many other viable Claw Sharpen recievers out there too.
Yeah...I did calcs with Blaze against a Physically Defensive Skarmory, actually, because I was considering bringing it up yesterday.
Max Attack +2 Adamant Blaziken HJK (Holding Wide Lens!) vs. Max HP/240 Defense Impish Skarmory - (75.4% - 88.9%)
Life Orb Max Attack +1 Adamant Blaziken HJK vs. Max HP/240 Defense Impish Skarmory - (73.7% - 86.5%)
Wide Lens SD Blaziken still does more damage than Claw Sharpen Blaziken holding Life Orb. The difference is marginal, I'll admit, but then consider that the SD Blaziken doesn't have to deal with Life Orb recoil and HJK gets perfect accuracy either way. If you're really getting frustrated with Stone Miss, though...
I see an obvious modification to this that I'd consider if I was trying to find a Claw Sharpen use - use it in Trick Room.
Dragonite @ Life Orb
Multi-Scale | Adamant | 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
- Claw Sharpen
- Dragon Rush
- Earthquake
- Aqua Tail/Roost
After a Claw Sharpen and with Adamant, Dragon Rush will deal plenty of pain. The other two moves give coverage, or use Roost to heal back to full for Multi Scale abuse.
A mixed Trick Room Nite with max Atk+SpAtk and something like Claw Sharpen/Dragon Rush/Gale/a base 120 Special coverage move might also be worth a shot.
Claw Sharpen also can benefit the likes of Kingler, considering a 100% Accurate +1 Crabhammer will still do plenty of damage, though not as much as a SD boosted one, but of course there is always a chance of a miss... I suppose it's a matter preferance really, but claw sharpen also helps the crab out if it carries Rock Slide.
NO. D:< HAIL no. Claw Sharpen sets in the Aggron thread were what set me off to rant about this move in the first place. >___>+ *...sigh* but as per the Smogon rules of rationality, let me explain why this sucks...
For one thing, we already know that Aggron has quite an impressive sweeping set in the form of Rock Polish (now Body Purge in the 5th Gen, though for all intents and purposes, it's the same), which fixes what is (as you said) Aggron's biggest weakness stat-wise: its Speed. This set is already quite capable of sweeping even without an Attack boost, though it's certainly not untrue that he would want one. HOWEVER...
Competent users of Aggron also know that any sets not attempting to sweep by boosting its speed CANNOT stay in for very long, as Aggron will quickly fall to its three devastating weaknesses: 4x Fighting and Ground, as well as the ever-common special Water attacks, all of which Aggron is extremely vulnerable to. Now, the set you're proposing wants Aggron to stay in for a sweep, WITHOUT fixing his speed (unless, you know, you want to Sub down to Salac or something-- but that's not substantial enough to fix Aggron's Speed). Basically, it just makes Aggron stupid-easy to revenge-kill. At least other suggested users of the move have Hustle / bulk / Speed on their side.... (Aianto / Metagross / Aerodactyl, respectively) Now I've altered my stance on the move, I admit it has pretty impressive potential on the right users, but I'll still be darn irritated if people still go slapping it around on every pansy that finally gets a boosting move in the 5th Gen.
NO SHIT. That's part of why Claw Sharpen is such a crap sweeping move; a ton of Pokemon get Swords Dance anyway. >___> Even in the case of the Pokemon that get Claw Sharpen and NOT Swords Dance, they're severely outclassed by all the great Swords Dancers out there-- a perfect example of this is the Claw Sharpen Flygon VS Swords Dance Garchomp discussion that was argued earlier in the thread. Aianto, Metagross, and Aerodactyl are relatively noteworthy exceptions to the overall suckiness of the move.
...and after that rather successful (I daresay) rant, I think I'll restrict my replies to those sets and suggestions that I believe actually have some viability... Ignoring the... less viable sets is just more efficient timewise, since there seem to be more of those than the alternative.
Also added Claw Sharpen Metagross and Aerodactyl to the OP.
Keep the suggestions coming, there are bound to be some good ideas buried in all the... less-than-fantastic posts.
Duly noted. Though still, it's hardly much better than Rock Smash. :0 Added it to the set.
...I think I'd rather see a purely-physical Hustlekiss set, but this looks quite intriguing, I'll admit. It'd make a pretty cool recipient for CS-BP Aianto, considering they have decent synergy outside of Togekiss's Electric weakness. I'm a little concerned about its ability to hit Ghost-types, but... naw on second thought, all the Ghosts are hit hard enough by at least one of those Special moves. But since it doesn't directly utilize Claw Sharpen, I dunno if I can add it to the OP. :0
This... of all the Dragons, Dragonite seems like the most likely viable user of Claw Sharpen. I did make one change; I think that Extremespeed would be extremely important for any Dragonite boosting its Attack without boosting Speed. :0 So I swapped Aqua Tail for Earthquake to get perfect netural coverage on everyone but Empoleon and Sheddy, and slashed ExSpeed in Aqua Tail's previous place. Though I like this, I'm a little skeptical as to whether it's outclassed by DDnite. DD + Outrage > CS + Dragon Rush, IMO. The only advantage of the latter is its reliability... I'll need some further proof of this set's usefulness before I add it to the OP. :0
Also added Claw Sharpen Metagross and Aerodactyl to the OP.
Keep the suggestions coming, there are bound to be some good ideas buried in all the... less-than-fantastic posts.
Meloetta @ Expert Belt
Hasty 4 Att/252 Sp. Att/252 Speed
Ability: Serene Grace
Claw Sharpen
Close Combat
Psychic
Thunder
This is my favorite Meloetta set so far, almost as if Claw Sharpen was made for her. I would never attempt an all-out special sweeper set with no type of recovery or a way to get past Blissey, but what Meloetta has going here is a great combination of power, bulk, and the surprise factor. You can also use the accuracy boost from Claw Sharpen to safely attack with Thunder, which in turn gives you a 60% chance for paralysis due to Serene Grace.
First thing to note about this set is that stall runs itself into conniptions trying to take this thing out. Skarmory and Blissey have to fear Thunder and Close Combat respectively, Tentacruel is easy setup bait, Heatran can give you another free boost if it tries to switch in on you, and non-scarfed Tyranitar poses no threat to you whatsoever. Even without investment, an Expert Belt boosted CC from Meloetta is fairly potent. Just look at the calcs:
+1 CC on Wishbliss: 63.4% - 74.9%
CC on 4 HP Ttar: 91.2% - 107.9%
+1 CC on 252 HP Nattorei: 56.5% - 66.8%
CC on Heatran: 49.5% - 58.5%
+1 on Heatran: 74.3% - 87.6%
Keep in mind here that Close Combat is your trump card and you should only use it once you've set up and/or the HP range is looking feasible. You really want to lure in things like Blissey and Ttar, so it's best to smack things with Psychic and Thunder while you can and save CC for when your prime targets switch in, thinking they can force you out or KO on the spot. It's just unorthodox enough not to expect, but effective enough to warrant use.
I think it's self-evident what a super effective Thunder or Psychic will do to the Pokemon weak to them, especially coming from base 128 Sp. Att, so I won't list calcs for those. But I will add that this also a good check to Roopushin, something you absolutely NEED in this metagame.
Hasty 4 Att/252 Sp. Att/252 Speed
Ability: Serene Grace
Claw Sharpen
Close Combat
Psychic
Thunder
This is my favorite Meloetta set so far, almost as if Claw Sharpen was made for her. I would never attempt an all-out special sweeper set with no type of recovery or a way to get past Blissey, but what Meloetta has going here is a great combination of power, bulk, and the surprise factor. You can also use the accuracy boost from Claw Sharpen to safely attack with Thunder, which in turn gives you a 60% chance for paralysis due to Serene Grace.
First thing to note about this set is that stall runs itself into conniptions trying to take this thing out. Skarmory and Blissey have to fear Thunder and Close Combat respectively, Tentacruel is easy setup bait, Heatran can give you another free boost if it tries to switch in on you, and non-scarfed Tyranitar poses no threat to you whatsoever. Even without investment, an Expert Belt boosted CC from Meloetta is fairly potent. Just look at the calcs:
+1 CC on Wishbliss: 63.4% - 74.9%
CC on 4 HP Ttar: 91.2% - 107.9%
+1 CC on 252 HP Nattorei: 56.5% - 66.8%
CC on Heatran: 49.5% - 58.5%
+1 on Heatran: 74.3% - 87.6%
Keep in mind here that Close Combat is your trump card and you should only use it once you've set up and/or the HP range is looking feasible. You really want to lure in things like Blissey and Ttar, so it's best to smack things with Psychic and Thunder while you can and save CC for when your prime targets switch in, thinking they can force you out or KO on the spot. It's just unorthodox enough not to expect, but effective enough to warrant use.
I think it's self-evident what a super effective Thunder or Psychic will do to the Pokemon weak to them, especially coming from base 128 Sp. Att, so I won't list calcs for those. But I will add that this also a good check to Roopushin, something you absolutely NEED in this metagame.
One poke i like to put Claw Sharpen in, just in case, is Dugtrio:
Dugtrio @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 6 HP
Nature: Timid
Ability: Arena Trap
-Claw Sharpen
-Sucker Punch
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
1- Switch on Choiced Volt Changes/Thunderbolts/Wobbuffet (yes!)
2- set up as long as you like
3- Go sweep! Or not.
Ditto came in? NEVER attack. Just spam Claw Sharpen until it wastes all 5 Sucker Punch PP. He can't switch out due to Arena Trap lol.
Dugtrio @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 6 HP
Nature: Timid
Ability: Arena Trap
-Claw Sharpen
-Sucker Punch
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
1- Switch on Choiced Volt Changes/Thunderbolts/Wobbuffet (yes!)
2- set up as long as you like
3- Go sweep! Or not.
Ditto came in? NEVER attack. Just spam Claw Sharpen until it wastes all 5 Sucker Punch PP. He can't switch out due to Arena Trap lol.
...hm. This is actually quite intriguing. I scoffed when I saw the moves in the set, but... with your explanation... it actually seems more than feasible.
I do, however, have a few key concerns with the set... you mention 128 Sp. Atk, so it's safe to assume you're referring to this Pokemon's Voice Forme, yeah? ...my concern with that is that the voice forme is slightly worrisome in both its Defense and its Speed, which makes me doubt whether it can maintain a sweep when being threatened by strong, fast physical attackers. However, if I'm to understand your explanation, it sounds as though this is meant to be more of a wallbreaker set, at which it looks phenomenal. I'll add it to the OP when I have time.
Unrelated side note, I think it's completely weird that Meloetta gets Claw Sharpen, as it has nothing remotely resembling claws. >.> *shrug* But, I guess that's gamefreak for you.
Yeah, this is Voice form. One thing I forgot to add is that it's practically a free KO on Rain teams, since nothing can OHKO her and Thunder is going to be paralyzing more often than not on stuff like Ludicolo. Also, if you're in on Politoed, it has to either sacrifice something to Thunder or stay in and die. If it chooses the former, you can checkmate them with your own weather setter, which practically makes it gg. Go ahead and try it out, it's a really cool set.
If you really want the option of switching to Step form, you can replace Psychic with Ancient Song and split the EVs a bit, but the other moves on the set are its main selling points and absolutely mandatory. I might actually try those optional changes in a bit.
I'm still working on this to see whether or not the spread is optimal, since you really want a strong CC and enough power to 2HKO bulky Waters with Thunder. EVs might not be negotiable if you plan on using this as a Roopushin check, though. :/
If you really want the option of switching to Step form, you can replace Psychic with Ancient Song and split the EVs a bit, but the other moves on the set are its main selling points and absolutely mandatory. I might actually try those optional changes in a bit.
I'm still working on this to see whether or not the spread is optimal, since you really want a strong CC and enough power to 2HKO bulky Waters with Thunder. EVs might not be negotiable if you plan on using this as a Roopushin check, though. :/
Claw Sharpen can be a good move for many sets (Physical and mixed) it can be used for these pokemon that haven`t other form for boost their attack stat, but it can be too a good accuracy increase for moves like Zap Canon, Thunder, Hidropump, etc.
...oh, I just remembered about the form-changing issues with Meloetta... nevermind that then, I guess my forme-guessing was just redundant crap. :0 Sorry.
Heh, I'm not really testing anything... I'm trying to keep my first B/W playing experience pure so I'm not doing any Gen 5 sim battles until I get the game. =w= So I'm basically just theorymonning on everything. Dx LOL.
In any case, I'll add this current set to the OP. If you want to give me an updated EV spread later, I can fix that in the OP later as well.
Ditto doesn't have to use Sucker Punch... He can use 100% accurate Scarfed Stone Edge and hit you with a +X massive damage attack. +1 does 75%, +2 is already OHKO. Then it's a matter of choosing whether to Sucker Punch a Stone Edge or Claw Sharpen on a Sucker Punch.
The thing is, Sucker Punch is usually the safest move in these kinds of scenarios. Once you see his moveset, you know he has priority and the safest move you can use is another Sucker Punch. From there, you outpredict the Ditto player and Claw Sharpen, knowing they're locked into Sucker Punch.
In a first time scenario between two average players where neither is familiar with one another's playstyle, the Ditto player has no reason to expect you to outpredict him (or that you'd even be clever enough to attempt such a strategy), so the optimal move would be to Sucker Punch right away.
If your prediction attempt is reversed, you're either facing a smarter opponent or an LCD opponent that just clicks the strongest attacks. :P
In a first time scenario between two average players where neither is familiar with one another's playstyle, the Ditto player has no reason to expect you to outpredict him (or that you'd even be clever enough to attempt such a strategy), so the optimal move would be to Sucker Punch right away.
If your prediction attempt is reversed, you're either facing a smarter opponent or an LCD opponent that just clicks the strongest attacks. :P
Yeah, for the most part, Pokemon who only get one move's accuracy boosted by Claw Sharpen-- not even a STAB move or a highly-important coverage move-- aren't really worth considering to use it on. IE, most Pokemon with Stone Edge; Aerodactyl is really the only noteworthy exception to this because he gets STAB on it and is ridiculously fast, meaning he can abuse both effects of Claw Sharpen to full effect (having lots of other lowish-accuracy moves helps a bit too).
So, any other good sets people have to contribute? :0 How about Chameleon's Mix HustleKiss set that recieves Aianto's passed Claw Sharpen boosts, does anyone think this is noteworthy enough to add to the OP?
So, any other good sets people have to contribute? :0 How about Chameleon's Mix HustleKiss set that recieves Aianto's passed Claw Sharpen boosts, does anyone think this is noteworthy enough to add to the OP?
This, like SJCrew's Meloetta, is an instance where the accuracy boost only really benefits one or two moves, but they're pivotal and vital to the set's success. In my opinion, this is a very successful user of Claw Sharpen, the only issue with it being, of course, that Togekiss doesn't actually learn the move.
ainto certainly seems like he could see use with this move, but I don't really see other pokemon using it too much
For the most part, yeah, I agree. :0 Claw Sharpen Metagross will probably not see any use with the multitude of other options that are around, although Claw Sharpen Aerodactyl is pretty cool, IMO. Aerodactyl always wanted to be a sweeper with those stats, but never got the boosting moves. D: The fact that many of his more powerful attacks are much more accurate from Claw Sharpen is great, IMO (IE Stone Edge, Aqua Tail, Element Fangs)
Since it's a TR set, Brave would be a better nature than Adamant.
+1 acc is 4/3 times the base accuracy. Moves with 75 acc and above become 100 acc after +1 acc.
I thought it was x1.5, like most other stat boosts are, but apparently I was mistaken. :0
Well, to put it in perspective, here're the moves you mentioned with their increased accuracies after a single CS:
-dynamic punch: 50 -> 66 (66.6 repeating rounded down)
-fire blast: 85 -> 113
-thunder: 70 -> 93
-rock slide 85 -> 113
-hypnosis: 60 -> 80
-stone edge: 80 -> 100+
So it looks like a bit of overkill on Fire Blast and Rock Slide and not good enough on 'namicpunch, but Thunder, Hypnosis, and Stone Edge all benefit a great deal from it.
...although I will reassert that it should not only be used to boost the accuracy of your physical attacker's Stone Edge. :0 SJCrew's Meloetta is a perfect example of a CS set that takes advantage of the Attack and Acuracy boosts for very specific and specialized, but highly effective purposes.
I'd say a Claw Sharpen set on a physical Hypnosis user could be quite handy... now, are there any such Pokemon...? Hmmm.... *checks*
EDIT: Yes! Resident kittycats Purugly and Persian both get Claw Sharpen + Hypnosis. :3 ...that's actually quite a pity, as both pretty much need 3 moves for adequate coverage with their STABs. :0 Thus, I don't know if a Claw Sharpen set would be worth it, as it practically necessitates a sweeper, but here are some theoretical sets for them:
Persian @ Life Orb
Technician / Jolly
4 / 252 / 252
- Claw Sharpen
- Hypnosis
- Return
- U-Turn
...not actually a terrible set in my mind. Claw Sharpen on something you can scare away (good luck with that 9__9), then nail stuff with Return until your opponent brings in something that resists/is immune to it. Then, BAM, nail'em with Hypnosis, U-turn to scout and send in an appropriate counter on the switch. As with a lot of Claw Sharpeners, the real trouble is gonna be findind time to set up without getting smacked around.
Purugly @ Life Orb / Salac Berry
Thick Fat / Jolly
- Claw Sharpen
- Hypnosis
- Sucker Punch / Shadow Claw
- Wake-up Slap
Purugly's Speed might be decidedly inferior compared to Persian, but at least it gets usable coverage moves. Hypnosis puts stuff to sleep, Wake-Up Slap is usable with it, and Sucker Punch/Shadow Claw provide priority (to make up for iffy speed) and coverage respectively.
Personally, I like the idea of a Claw Sharpen + Dragon Rush set. Dragon Rush is a nifty move on paper (100 BP, great offensive typing, good flinch chance) but its 75% accuracy is a definite deal-breaker... Sure, Outrage is still stronger, but a CSed Dragon Rush doesn't lock you into an attack or confuse you after its use.
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