np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[alamaster]

Seriously? I'm testing skymin right now, and the scarf set is nowhere near broken. Sure, it's fast, but it's frail, especially without sub. You have to remember that it's using unSTABed attacks for coverage off an unboosted special attack stat. I'm using a modest 351 speed (before scarf) set, and I'm missing out on a lot of KOs. While the seed flare/air slash/hp ice/ earth power set is good for coverage, It can't just switch in and decimate whatever it wants.

I use jolly, which is even weaker but still manages to 3HKO stuff like darkrai and latios with air slash and flinches which happen very often. I almost exclusively use Air Slash, I've used Seed Flare and hp fire a couple of times, never used earth power. It may not be able to switch in, but once it gets in its taking a couple things down with minimal luck.

 

[The_Grey_King]

In this case, then, you're using two Pokemon (Honch+Hitmontop) just to "check" Deoxys, because neither of both can be defined a "counter". And I'm not entirely sure that Honch and Hitmontop are worth two Pokemon slots into a standard OU team. I'm not saying that Deoxys is really that broken, as I've been able to play around it myself, but there are symptoms that it may still be too powerful even in Gen V.

Don't knock Hitmontop, it deals quite nicely with any frail sweeper such as Blaziken, Darkrai, Doryuuzu, and a ton of others, and can take out things Roobushin can't thanks to Sucker Punch. You can then either run Pursuit or Rapid Spin as per your tastes - I prefer Pursuit to deal with gengar.

I included Honchkrow on the team because I REALLY wanted a sleep resist, which insomnia provides. Krow can also deal HEAVY damage to Roobushin (And anything that doesn't resist flying) With brave bird, making it a possible secondary Roob counter behind Venusaur. Also smacks the heck out of breloom.

The Deoxys A thing came out naturally.

 

[Afti]

So, having played the latter fairly well for a while, my thoughts on some Suspects.

Deoxys-A: You're NOT beating this without Scizor or a sacrifice. +2 priority ExtremeSpeed puts it over the edge, eliminating its few counters in priority abusers. Definitely uber.

Darkrai: Annoying as all hell. Hard to take down due to Dark Void, but if you have a sleep absorber on your team it's not too bad, actually. I'd want to give it another cycle, but it's probably uber.

Manaphy: Fast, bulky, and has the best boosting move in the game. Combine that with the free Rests it gets in the rain, and you can't deal with it. At all. If Manaphy sets up, you're losing. Uber.

Those are all I've seen that are uber- Skymin is underwhelming, as are Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D. Deoxys-N is probably uber, being a miniature Deoxys-A, but I haven't seen it at all.

 

[zfs]

Haven't faced many Deoxys-A yet, but my early thoughts mirror Afti's, that +2 priority ES might send him over the top. In past gens, anything with a decent priority attack, no matter how low on health, could revenge kill Deo-A. Now, you need something healthy enough to take the ES before it can revenge kill (Scizor, Metagross, and Lucario shouldn't have problems, and you could always use a Ghost type with Shadow Sneak).

 

[The_Grey_King]

Haven't faced many Deoxys-A yet, but my early thoughts mirror Afti's, that +2 priority ES might send him over the top. In past gens, anything with a decent priority attack, no matter how low on health, could revenge kill Deo-A. Now, you need something healthy enough to take the ES before it can revenge kill (Scizor, Metagross, and Lucario shouldn't have problems, and you could always use a Ghost type with Shadow Sneak).

Spiritomb even resists his psychic attacks and comes sporting sucker punch/Shadow Sneak, and can definately be bulky enough to take a random Ice Beam on the switch.

 

[Plusle]

Haven't faced many Deoxys-A yet, but my early thoughts mirror Afti's, that +2 priority ES might send him over the top. In past gens, anything with a decent priority attack, no matter how low on health, could revenge kill Deo-A. Now, you need something healthy enough to take the ES before it can revenge kill (Scizor, Metagross, and Lucario shouldn't have problems, and you could always use a Ghost type with Shadow Sneak).

Seriously Deoxys A just dies.



The only suspect shpuld be Skymin. So much Flinch Hax. It can break through anything with air slash.

 

[RedMeowth]

I find it funny that people can talk about Deoxys, Darkrai, or Dryuuzu dying to priority moves and still say that Skymin is too good. It resists Aqua Jet and Mach Punch, but not Ice Shard, ExtremeSpeed or Bullet Punch (or Shadow Sneak if that ever comes up).

Assuming Stealth Rock is up when Life Orb Skymin comes in, it's already lost 25% of its health. Skymin attempts to Seed Flare, when the opponent switches in Choice Band Scizor.

Orb Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor = 23.03% - 27.11%

With this, one of these events can happen:
A.) Shaymin stays in to try and knock out Scizor with Earth Power or HP Fire, while Scizor Bullet Punches.
B.) Shaymin runs away, Scizor Bullet Punches.
C.) Shaymin runs away, Scizor gives Pursuit.
D.) Shaymin stays to fight, anticipating that the opponent thinks it will run, while Scizor Pursues it.

Now, Scizor will most likely die in Case D. So what's the damage output on Bullet Punch?
Band Bullet Punch on no defense Skymin = 60.11% - 71.26%

If Shaymin does stay to attack, it has about a 50% chance of dying just from the Bullet Punch. Like I said earlier, though, if Stealth Rock hit Skymin when it came in, Shaymin will be at perilously low health. If Shaymin does survive the punch, Life Orb will drain what's left with Shaymin's last attack. In other words, Shaymin is DEAD no matter what here, due to priority. But what if Shaymin runs away? Well, unless Magnezone appears in its place, Scizor can run, too, and the situation may repeat itself later. Only this time, Skymin will be in range to die to a Bullet Punch.

 

[Bologo]

Deoxys-N is probably uber, being a miniature Deoxys-A, but I haven't seen it at all.

If you haven't seen it at all, you probably shouldn't judge it. Deoxys-N is high risk/low reward compared to other sweepers IMO. Yes, its offenses may look high, but keep in mind that it has to run a Speed-boosting nature. He needs this to get the jump on some of the slower Scarf users or Swift Swimmers that will completely bone him otherwise. This means that he's only reaching 399 max in one attacking stat. When he can't even boost his attacking stats outside of Calm Mind, he really has to rely on super-effective hits to get kills, especially if he tries going mixed. That, and with all of the power creep this gen, is 399 really that high? With all the Rain sweepers and new Sandstorm sweepers hitting just as, if not, harder, with the massive BP on their attacks, or in Doryuuzu, his higher Attack stat, 399 Special Attack is pretty manageable.

Unfortunately, these don't even hit hard enough, especially against walls, particularly those with reliable recovery. For instance, a Superpower coming off of 399 Attack with a Life Orb is only doing a max of 83% to Evo Stone Chansey. This means that if she comes in on a Special Attack, she still has a good chance of winning. Realistically, Deoxys-N isn't going to be using this spread if he wants super-effective coverage, because most of that comes from his Special movepool. So more realistically, it'll be coming off of 336 Attack. This can do an absolute max of 70%, most likely lower. Chansey can stall that out with Wish/Protect if she comes in on a Special attack.

Furthermore, just like Deoxys-A, Deoxys-N has horrible 4-moveslot-syndrome. He needs to have the moveset Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Psycho Boost/Psychic/Superpower/ExtremeSpeed/HP Fire/Shadow Ball/Substitute, but unfortunately, he just can't run all of these at once. It's even worse with Deoxys-N, because he actually needs all the coverage he can get if he actually wants to kill things.

Basically, he's screwed by any Steel not weak to Fighting if he doesn't run HP Fire. Bulky Fighters will wreck him if he doesn't have Psychic/Psycho Boost. Bulky Waters ruin him if he doesn't have Thunderbolt. Dragons will have a much easier time if he doesn't run Ice Beam. Without Superpower, he has nothing against Tyranitar, Chansey, Blissey, and stuff like Heatran. Without ExtremeSpeed or Substitute, he can't protect himself against priority. And without Shadow Ball, many Psychic-types will have lots of fun against him. It's also unfortunate that Psycho Boost is the only attack here that has high BP running off of his more important attacking stat. We've all seen cases like Electivire where they have high attacking stats, but the BP on all their moves blow, and as a result, they get walled to hell by a lot of threats.

In addition to all of this, something on your team has to die just so he can come in, because there's no way in hell that he can actually switch himself in with those defenses and actually hope to accomplish anything. This is a key part in me saying that he's high risk/low reward, because honestly, if something has to die for my sweeper to come in, they sure as hell better be reliable at doing their job, because it's going to be really difficult to bring them in again if they screw up. Unfortunately, Deoxys is quite unreliable in this aspect, because if a Choice Scarfer or Scizor comes in on one of his attacks, what's he really going to do to them? His ExtremeSpeed isn't strong enough to even 2HKO Garchomp even if he carries max Attack, and with min Attack, it can't even 2HKO 0/0 Rotom-A, both of which can destroy him.

At least with something that can boost their stats like SD Lucario, their attacks will be strong enough to take out walls, and if they have priority, hopefully take out faster pokemon. But since Deoxys-N can't boost his stats without relying on CM, which he'll have a lot of trouble setting up, since most people will just attack Deoxys-N right off the bat, he can't really do this.

Honestly, Deoxys-N doesn't impress me at all, and it's really, really confusing me as to why people think it should be a suspect when 1) Deoxys-A is still here, and 2) it's really not an easy pokemon to use well.


---


On another note, I've been trying out Specs Shaymin-S + Wish Chansey. It's an absolutely monstrous combination, since Shaymin-S with Choice Specs on can break through most of its counters, and Chansey fully heals Shaymin-S with Wish, removing any Stealth Rock damage or other damage, letting Shaymin-S do its job again and again. It's also nice that Shaymin-S resists Chansey's one weakness, so if, for instance, a Roopushin comes in while Chansey uses Wish (which happens a lot), just send out Shaymin-S to take the Drain Punch, and you'll not only be a full health, but Roopushin will also be in a lot of trouble, while you put shitloads of pressure on the opponent. Air Slash is actually really powerful with Specs, since it can actually OHKO a lot of sweepers, and Specs Seed Flare is the reason why I recommend people try Chansey over Blissey, because Seed Flare has an 80% chance of 2HKOing Blissey if both of them hit. I personally find this set to be way better than Scarfmin-s, because that set doesn't really hit hard enough and still unfortunately can't outspeed Doryuuzu even with Timid. I'm not going to say whether the set is broken or not, but leave that up to yourselves when you try it out.

 

[SJCrew]

Deoxys-N is about as easy to use as Deoxys-A, just click Psycho Boost and watch stuff die.

 

[Bologo]

Deoxys-N is about as easy to use as Deoxys-A, just click Psycho Boost and watch stuff die.

Not really. A LO Deoxys-N Psycho Boost is hitting about as hard as Specs Latios's Draco Meteor, except unlike Latios, Deoxys-N can only come in on revenge-kills, has very few resists, and a lot more things can actually survive his Psycho Boost because Psychic is still resisted by a lot (at least compared to Draco Meteor). Why would I use Deoxys-N instead of Latios?

I guess Deoxys-N can switch moves, but he's still a sitting duck after he uses Psycho Boost, since Superpower isn't going to be killing very much with min Attack.

 

[Delta 2777]

Deoxys (normal forme) is probably just as if not more annoying to face as Deoxys-A, as while its offenses are slightly lower, its defenses allow it to live some weaker priority attacks that some players rely on to kill it, such as Mach Punch/Vaccume Wave, along with some other stuff like LO Mamoswine's Ice Shard and even an unboosted LO Lucario's Extremespeed.

At this moment in time I'm leaning towards nominating Darkrai, Shaymin-S, Deoxys-A, and Deoxys.

Darkrai - Sleep mechanics this generation, combined with the ability to outpace 90% of the metagame that isn't holding a Choice Scarf, along with stellar offenses and coverage make it too good for this metagame. Having a few checks such as Scizor and Blissey just really isn't enough.

It should also be noted that Choice Scarf Randorosu's Hammer Arm won't even OHKO 0/0 Darkrai, allowing it to sleep it and seriously damage another Pokemon.

Shamin-S - Shaymin-S would be ok if it didn't have Serene Grace. Unfortunately, it does, so *flinch* *flinch* *flinch* is just too uncompetative and allows it to beat most of its "counters" with enough luck. CB Scizor being existant does not make this OU, as was proved last generation.

Deoxys-A - Very powerful, very fast, very hard to play around. The only thing that stops it from being a guarenteed win late-game is priority, faster Choice Scarf users, and Sand Throw/Chlorophyll/Swift Swim Pokemon. Paired with Spikes this thing is a beast.

Deoxys - Same reasoning as I stated earlier; a Deoxys-A that requires more prior damage on some bulky Pokemon, but in exchange can survive some common priority.

 

[SJCrew]

Not really. A Deoxys-N Psycho Boost is hitting about as hard as Specs Latios's Draco Meteor, except unlike Latios, Deoxys-N can only come in on revenge-kills, has very few resists, and a lot more things can actually survive his Psycho Boost because Psychic is still resisted by a lot. Why would I use Deoxys-N instead of Latios?

I guess Deoxys-N can switch moves, but he's still a sitting duck after he uses Psycho Boost, since Superpower isn't going to be killing very much with min Attack.

Deoxys-N beats the things that kill or outstall Latios with no gimmicks whatsoever, like Blissey and Tyranitar. He doesn't even have to predict any switch-ins or use a choice item. Also, priority makes him harder to revenge, which means he can clean up on weakened teams better and not have to worry about random Sucker Punches and the like.

He doesn't even need that really; if I see priority that can kill him, I'd have no problem switching out. Even so, for the most part, random Pokemon with priority are incapable of countering him and when he gets in on something, it usually dies, the next thing dies, or you're switching around, hoping he won't get a kill. You're going to need a defensive Steel type to stop him from getting a kill the first time in. Second time in, you're probably going to get hit with a Fire move.

He and Specs Latios are kind of neck and neck, with Latios having the bulk and Deoxys having the raw speed and power in both offenses. But even without the bulk, Deoxys gives me way more trouble than Latios.

 

[capefeather]

You're NOT beating this without Scizor or a sacrifice. +2 priority ExtremeSpeed puts it over the edge, eliminating its few counters in priority abusers. Definitely uber.

I don't get this statement. Deoxys-A already has 150 base Speed. It shouldn't matter whether its ExtremeSpeed is +1 or +2 priority. Even Erufuun can't outrun that. Are we talking about Scarfed priority or Shiftry Sucker Punch in the sun or what?

js

 

[Euphoria]

Skymin is underwhelming .

A scarf Shaymin-s annihilated half my team by flinchhax and I couldn't do anything about it I had a Pokemon that resisted flying Tyranitar it kept on going after Tyranitar was gone 8 turns *cough* lucky crit if Ttar didn't get sand stream ability my team would off been Raped, Shaymin-s would be good with that incredible speed and special attack but GameFreak giving it serene grace that is just trolling Shaymin-s is a definite uber for me.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Okay, just one question. What is this 1500 number that everyone keeps talking about?? Why does it even matter?? I don't play using the servers, so I know nothing about this.

 

[alphatron]

It would actually be pretty cool if Deoxys-N remained in standard play. He'd be a pretty good revenge killer to every sweeper in existance without resisted priority.

 

[Plusle]

To vote you need 1500 which is very high

 

[Chou Toshio]

Anyway, in regards to the sand sweepers that we're also talking about, if Ninetales and Politoed stay in the game, I find having Dory around acceptable.

Politoed is actually a much better pokemon (even via its own performance) than I expected at least, and both have their own ways of dealing with tyranitar (WOW / Focus Blast). If they stay around to give Sand some competition, than cool, let's keep Dory. There is then at least a risk to those who would look to abuse him.

Otherwise, I'd hate to see Dory in a meta of perpetual sand. >__>

 

[Silent Storm]

Okay, just one question. What is this 1500 number that everyone keeps talking about?? Why does it even matter?? I don't play using the servers, so I know nothing about this.

"1500" is a rating number used on the simulator. When you win a battle, your rating goes up, if you read the rating "1500", that means you are eligible for voting.

 

[Ace Emerald]

In six pages I'm surprised kyuremu hasn't been mentioned. 125/90/90 defenses are nice, 130/130 offenses is incredible, and while 95 speed is meh, scarf revenger is looking nice anyway. He's got a Draco meteor the same as latios. Fighting weak may be bad, but the sheer size of the stats amazes me. I'm thinking about trying him out just because I'm not seeing any worry.

 

[Delta 2777]

In six pages I'm surprised kyuremu hasn't been mentioned. 125/90/90 defenses are nice, 130/130 offenses is incredible, and while 95 speed is meh, scarf revenger is looking nice anyway. He's got a Draco meteor the same as latios. Fighting weak may be bad, but the sheer size of the stats amazes me. I'm thinking about trying him out just because I'm not seeing any worry.

Kyuremu just has too many drawbacks and faces too much competition. 125/90/90 defenses are good until you realize he's Stealth Rock weak, and vulnerable to Sandstorm, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. 95 speed simply isn't up to snuff, especially when you have just about every dragon (Ononokusu, Garchomp, Lati@s, Salamence, Flygon, and Sazandora) being able to outspeed you and dish out damage just as well as Kyuremu, while having much better typing to take advantage of switching in. Being weak to the two most common priority moves (Mach Punch and Bullet Punch) is pretty much the nail in the coffin for it... I wouldn't be surprised at all if it ended up being UU (BL) by the time we have our own usage statistics.

 

[Bologo]

Hey, to change the topic a little bit, I was wondering what Uber pokemon people were thinking of nominating to test in OU?

Right now it seems like Lugia would be the one to stir up the most controversy, since a lot of people didn't want it to be on the initial banlist. The only other one I can think of that has a chance of being nominated is Giratina-A, since there's clearly a lot of Dragons that check it, and despite the high defenses, he doesn't have reliable recovery, which means that he's going to have trouble walling and stalling everything. Whether that's enough for people to nominate him though, I guess we'll have to see.

Thoughts?

 

[j99ubers]

If Darkrai remains in OU he can abssolutely destroy both Lugia and Giratina-A so as long as Darkrai doesnt get voted uber then there is probably a decent chance that they could be allowed in OU.

 

[sax king]

@ Bologo
I'd actually really like to test Giratina in OU, though I'm sure it won't last too long. Lugia isn't too likely to go into OU, though it certainly would balance things out. Its defensive capabilities would stop pokemon like Roob and Dory (though Rock Slide definitely hurts).

I'm all for nominating Manaphy, but imo rain is what makes Manaphy so hard to face. Manaphy can easily be taken down outside of rain by semifast, powerful SE attacks. It may be worth running thunderpunch on a lot of your sweepers. I think Manaphy is so difficult because of its instant healing and the fact that Kingdra can easily sweep an already weakened team. I'm actually against banning Drizzletoed, I'm just adding that Manaphy is only dangerous because of the rain, not because of the pokemon itself.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

For all of you demanding a Politoed test, be aware, that if Politoed is banned, Doryuuzu must be banned in one and the same breath. Poli's rain is part of what keeps Doryuuzu in check on the ladder, and removing Doryuuzu's checks is going to make this metagame even more centralised around Sandstorm.