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The option of Aqua Jet has been throughly discussed and we've found it to be pretty inferior in every way to Espeed. Although I haven't actually used Aqua Jet on Dnite, I use it a lot against Dory with my CB Huge Power Azumarril and even then, it's not a guaranteed OHKO when Dory is at full health. A better way is to just take the hit and use Fire Punch/Brick Break. DNite can survive a +2 Rock slide with multi-scale intact or an unboosted rock slide at 60-75% initial health (depending if your opponent is running Jolly or Adamant). That's more than enough margin of safety for a CB Dnite to counter with a powered up fire move or for an offensive DDnite to use an unboosted fire punch followed by ESpeed (since DD is superfluous against weather except hail).
On another note Lulzer, do you think we need to start a discussion/tests on the effect of banning Drizzle on the Dnite sets we have so far? Although I vehemently oppose any ban on Drizzle or Swift Swim, I do think it will make the DD sets much easier to use since it can actually outspeed stuff now with one or 2 DDs (thus less need for ESpeed). The rain Special Sweeper set might need to be eliminated since honestly, Dnite is probably not really worth the 8 turns of rain you'll have up. Just a thought.
And yes, Cloyster is the biggest bane of Dragonite after Onokusus (sp).
So.... Drizzle was really banned? Finally? Yeah, say bye to the rain sets.
What about our beloved (hated) dragon/ground weirdo shark, say he gets himself banned, the Spe EVs on most sets will change as hell.
Side note on Aqua Jet, it's base power is 40, against the doom mole its 80, while ESpeed is 40 due to steel, but he wont go down with just Aqua Jet so no reason to not Fire Punch his ugly face!
Dragon Tail is for phazing, Dragon Claw is for STAB and Flamethrower is to kill Steel-types who are immune to Toxic;
Thunder Wave is for helping set a sweep, or stop a sweep, and Toxic is for stalling or breaking stall;
Roost keeps Dragonite alive for longer and helps Toxic stalling;
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
EV spread to maximize defensive capacities;
Calm or Careful, depending on what attack you are running, Calm with Toxic + Flamethrower or Careful with the other options;
[TEAM OPTIONS]
This set works better on teams with dedicated walls, since Multi Scale is not a option, so Blissey/Chansey appears as excellent partners, due to the huge HP for Wish passing and the walling capabilities, also, Dragonite resist fighting;
Good to have on teams with weaknesses to status moves, such as Paralyze or Poison;
Dragon Claw is normally used over Outrage due to the ability to change attacks;
Roost keeps Dragonite alive for longer, allowing him to keep boosting his Attack and Speed while renewing Multi Scale;
Fire Punch appears as a coverage option against bulky Grass-types and floating Steel-types, Brick Break serves to hit mainly Terakion and Tyranitar;
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
EV spread to raise his bulk to a great level and make him outspeed Scarf Chomp after 2 Dragon Dances;
[TEAM OPTIONS]
The basic Wish support and/or Rapid Spin support will do, also, having a pokemon who can reliably check Cloyster is a good call, something to remove Sandstorm and Hail is also good, but not mandatory;
Forgoes most of the defense and relies only on Multi Scale to set up at least one Dragon Dance, two if the oposing pokemons switches;
Dragon Claw is more reliable STAB than Outrage, but the later can be used due to the ridiculous damage;
Fire Punch is used to cover Steel-types;
Last move rounds out coverage, Thunder Punch is for taking care of bulky waters, who gives Dragonite problems and Brick Break takes Dark and Normal-types down, Extreme Speed serves as a check to frail Scarved pokemon who can outspeed DNite;
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
216 Spe EVs are needed to outrun ScarfChomp;
Dragonite needs more 4 Spe EVs to outspeed Adamant Doryuuzu with 252 Spe Evs on the sand, after two Dragon Dances;
Still thinking on where to put those 36 remaining EV, since putting them on Speed is mostly a waste of points;
[TEAM OPTIONS]
Wish and/or Rapid Spin support is a good call, so you can boost twice considering no bad weather and a switch;
Should be paired with another boosting Dragon-type, such as Salamence or Ononokusu since they share more or less the same counters;
[SET]
Choice Band
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Fire Punch
move 3: Brick Break / Earthquake / Dragon Claw
move 4: Extreme Speed
ability: Multi Scale
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
[SET COMMENTS]
Outrage is a obvious choice in a banded set, due to the massive damage caused;
Fire Punch covers the Steel-types that would otherwise wall the set, it's even capable of OHKO Nattorei;
Third move depends mostly on preference, EQ hits Shanderaa and Heatran harder than Brick Break, yet, Brick Break hits Levitating foes, such as Sazandora, and OHKOs TTar and Blissey. Also, it will hit Baloon Doryuuzu, who is one of the biggest threats of the metagame, while EQ fails to do so, Dragon Claw appears as a STAB move with the option to switch out;
Extremespeed serves as a almost granted revenge on anything that doesn't resist it;
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
EVs for maximum offensive power;
Can work quite well as a anti-lead, since it can OHKO many common leads, such as Machamp, Tyranitar, Nattorei and anything frailer, yet, care is needed with Hippodowdon and Swampert;
[TEAM OPTIONS]
As always, Wish and/or Rapid Spin support to keep Multi-Scale intact;
Pairing up with a specially based dragon, such as Specs Lati@s can work wonders, since whatever come in to resist a hit from one of them, is taken down by the other;
Main aim of the set is to spread paralysis and shuffle most of the opposing team;
In order to stall the opponent, paralyze him first and proceed to Roost until he can’t move, then proceed to either sub, attack or shuffle;
Given the right scenario, can wall an entire team;
When running Substitute in the last slot, after 16 Dragon Tail the set becomes almost dead weight, but without it, the set looses a lot of walling power;
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
The 176 Spe EVs are used so that Dragonite can outspeed Breloom and set a Substitute before it gets Spored;
[TEAM OPTIONS]
Wish/Rapid Spin support is mandatory in this case, also, Heal Beal support is highly appreciated;
Works better with a team who can use lots of entry hazards;
On a annoyer team, Erufuun/Monmen appears as great partners, paralyzing Ground-types and providing even more switches with Leech Seed;
Ridiculously damaging attack with shaky accuracy, that goes to 100% on rain;
Last move depends on the approach, Agility makes him somewhat a Kingdra, Dragon Pulse is for hitting other Dragon-types who otherwise gives them set trouble and Roost is for durability;
When using Agility, 216 with Modest nature ensure that DNite will outspeed Scarfchomp;
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Running less Spe EVs to increase Atk EVs and using a Rash nature, a mixed set is viable, running Extreme Speed over Agility and Brick Break / Dragon Claw over either Surf or Thunder, when running Brick Break, 116 Atk EVs are recommended to OHKO Tyranitar;
[SPECIAL MENTIONS]
Magic Mirror Espeon / Xatu: These guys grants Dragonite's safety when dealing with entry hazards and status; also, if they carry HP Fire, they become good counters to the bane of most Dragonites, Nattorei, that being said, you could scrap Fire Punch on most sets for another coverage move. Espeon is the better option, since not only he gives protection against status and entry hazards, it can use the rare Heal Beal, in case Dragonite gets himself statused;
Hitmontop: After some testing I found Hitmontop one of the best partners for Dragonite, getting rid of entry hazards while being able to 2HKO Doryuuzu and Terakion with a combination of Fake Out and Mach Punch, boosted by Technitian;
[COUNTERS]
Any pokemon who can survive Dragonite's first blow and attack him twice with a Ice or Stone attack;
Stealth Rock leads;
Hippowdon, Tyranitar and Abomasnow are great counters to some extent, in that Dragonite's efficiency will drop drastically without Multi Scale protection;
Cloyster is the sure check to any Dragonite not running special attacks, he can take almost any physical hit and OHKO back with Icicle Spear;
Ononokusu is a great check, ignoring Multi Scale due to Mold Breaker and dealing obscene damage with Outrage;
[DREAM WORLD]
Nowadays, Dragonite is defined by his Dream World ability, Multi Scale.
That grants him 50% damage reduction on anything while his HP is full. That means he can revenge kill basically anything unboosted and despite having 4x Ice weakness, he can take the first ice attack from almost anything and retaliate.
Also grants him the safest Dragon Dance, as it's almost a given he will be able to pull the boost and survive at least the next turn, where he can Roost or simply dish out damage.
Rain has not been banned or voted on a second time. Options are being discussed that may allow Drizzle to remain in standard play. Do not make changes to the analysis on the assumption that something will be banned; wait until it is actually banned. Garchomp has not even been officially nominated for suspect status or voted on.
The HP EVs give dragonite his highest lefties number, giving him the most health restoration possible per turn. Max special defense aids him in taking a draco meteor from latios and paralyzing it, as well as the numerous ice beams he will inevitably roost off. The rest is allocated to speed. Off the top of my head, I can't remember anything that 199 speed beats, so these EVs might be better somewhere else.
The higher speed of the second spread allows you to throw up a sub before breloom can spore you. The shroom might run poison heal, so you will be unable to paralyze it.
Lulzer, I'll clean up the analysis for you tomorrow.
Rain has not been banned or voted on a second time. Options are being discussed that may allow Drizzle to remain in standard play. Do not make changes to the analysis on the assumption that something will be banned; wait until it is actually banned. Garchomp has not even been officially nominated for suspect status or voted on.
My sincere apologies, I meant testing Dragonite in a hypothetical no drizzle/swift swim scenario; but your right, we should just wait until after the vote.
Lulzer, I don't see anything grossly mistaken on the analysis, particular on the Offensive DD and CB Set (my test sets). Just make sure you slash in EQ for the last move on the Offensive DD and note that Brick Break will not OHKO Blissey on the CB set (but will OHKO T-tar).
Also, on the parashuffler, I think you meant that if Substitute is on the set, then DNite becomes deadweight after 16 D-tails, not the other way around.
I'll change the OP with the new build, k?
This now probably covers everything, only changes would be order of the sets, more to less relevant and used, but that's it.
Also, whenever you can swift, send me a detailed analysis on the parashuffler (bullet point is better for now).
Wherever you have Brick Break, you should replace it with Earthquake. Dragon/Ground is an almost unresisted type coverage, only stopped by Bronzong (with levitate) and Skarmory. Both of those are defeated by fire, so Having Dragon Claw or Outrage/EQ/Fire Blast/Punch provides unresisted coverage, and therefore would be superior to having brick break.
Wherever you have Brick Break, you should replace it with Earthquake. Dragon/Ground is an almost unresisted type coverage, only stopped by Bronzong (with levitate) and Skarmory. Both of those are defeated by fire, so Having Dragon Claw or Outrage/EQ/Fire Blast/Punch provides unresisted coverage, and therefore would be superior to having brick break.
Wherever you have Brick Break, you should replace it with Earthquake. Dragon/Ground is an almost unresisted type coverage, only stopped by Bronzong (with levitate) and Skarmory. Both of those are defeated by fire, so Having Dragon Claw or Outrage/EQ/Fire Blast/Punch provides unresisted coverage, and therefore would be superior to having brick break.
In the set you listed, what would you actually use EQ on? Heatran and fire pokemon mostly. Everything else is covered by Outrage and Fire move. With fire types, you can use Outrage for more or less the same damage. Brick Break OHKO's Tyranitar which are much more prevalent than Heatran and can still hit Heatran for SE damage. Moreover, most Heatrans now carry balloon which of course makes it hard to use EQ. Finally, on the choice set, you don't want to be set-up fodder for Flying, Levitate, and Balloon users. Brick Break is setup fodder for Flying and ghosts which is overall less of the current metagame.
HOWEVER, IF rain becomes less prominent, we might see more Heatrans so a reanalysis of that move might be needed.
on the support set follow the regular ev order. so just switch the SpD and the Def around. also i really dont think this set should be second on his list. dragonite is clearly an offensively oriented poke and should have several offensive sets before he's used defensively. for the mixed attacker you mention in team options once that it functions as a lead so i think it should be called attacking/anti lead. it works superbly as an attacking lead this gen because of it's ability which in the lead position won't be broken by anything but hail/sandstorm. that being said i think life orb shouldnt be the first option on that set as it's kind of counter productive when using multi scale and no roost. since that'll make for a lack of power, use the old attacking lead evs because mixed nite wont outspeed a whole lot of leads anyway and it has extreme speed. for the offensive DD set 252 jolly speed should get a mention in additional comments for outspeeding scarftran at +1, adamant 252 speed blaziken if it tries to revenge by using protect then stone edge, and for the chance of tieing timid scarf shandera who could carry hp ice. even if you personally dont agree with all this it should definitely get a mention as all of them are pretty viable threats and reasons to ev it that way. it certainly isnt "a waste of points."
I think you should change the order of the sets based on usefulness. If you want my opinion on the order I think it should be Mixed Attacking Lead, BulkyDD, OffensiveDD, Choice Band, Parashuffler, Support. Once again this is just my opinion. Ask someone else if you'd like a second opinion.
I said that I was going to clean up the analysis, but nobody has said anything. Does it not need it? I'm not sure what all of the semicolons are for ect.
Thunderpunch is pointless. Fire Punch is hitting skarm, and Outrage hits water pokemon harder. Rather put Extremespeed / Brick Break / Earthquake in that order.
[SET]
Choice Band
move 1: Extreme Speed
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Fire Punch
move 4: Superpower / Dragon Claw
ability: Inner Focus
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Most important moves should be listed first. Extremespeed is the main reason to use Choice Band Draggy. Brick Break is just too weak to even be of use and Earthquake is just a no-no with all the baloons running around. Multi-scale is pointless because your going to be taking residual damage from switching in and out, so why not use the much more powerful Superpower?
Thunderpunch is pointless. Fire Punch is hitting skarm, and Outrage hits water pokemon harder. Rather put Extremespeed / Brick Break / Earthquake in that order.
Most important moves should be listed first. Extremespeed is the main reason to use Choice Band Draggy. Brick Break is just too weak to even be of use and Earthquake is just a no-no with all the baloons running around. Multi-scale is pointless because your going to be taking residual damage from switching in and out, so why not use the much more powerful Superpower?
There is much more to CB Dragonite than ESpeed. The way I see it, it's role is more of a bulky revenge killer (taking the hit and then hitting back) rather than the traditional priority revenge killer (although it does that as well), thus Multi-scale is both needed and necessary. I almost never have any problems with entry hazards since clever use of Espeon (mentioned in the analysis) or Rapid Spin will negate that issue. Thus, the only thing that can mess up multi-scale is sand/hail, both of which occurs at the end of the turn. If you put Dnite in after one of your team members fainted, Multi-scale will be intact for that one turn in which you take the hit, making it far from useless. CB Nite can then retaliate with an OHKO or at most 2HKO.
I agree with you on the use of EQ as the last move, however, I don't think running Superpower over Brick Break is worth the loss of Multi-scale. I've actually tried Inner Focus CB Nite and it is severely outclassed. The key, as I keep trying to emphasize, is to realize what part of the Metagame you're target with the moves. For the fighting move, it's mostly only for Tyranitar and to a lesser extent Heatran. Everything else will be covered by Outrage and Fire Punch. CB Brick Break OHKOs Tyranitar hands down and is a 2HKO on Heatran. In both these instances, it accomplishes exactly what it needs to. Superpower is overkill on T-tar and leaves you vulnerable for the next poke coming out. Against, Heatran, it's an OHKO as well, but it leaves you vulnerable to being OHKOed by HP Ice, something that will never happen with multi-scale. Thus, it will boil down to a speed race in both cases. The only case Superpower would be more useful is against Blissey/Chansey since I'm not sure Brick Break is even a 2HKO. However, you have Outrage for that which is a guaranteed 2HKO.
I think you should change the order of the sets based on usefulness. If you want my opinion on the order I think it should be Mixed Attacking Lead, BulkyDD, OffensiveDD, Choice Band, Parashuffler, Support. Once again this is just my opinion. Ask someone else if you'd like a second opinion.
Thunderpunch is pointless. Fire Punch is hitting skarm, and Outrage hits water pokemon harder. Rather put Extremespeed / Brick Break / Earthquake in that order.
The thing about T-Punch is the following, the move lsited first is Dragon Claw, which means no Outrage, then you look and see T-Punch doing more damage to Water. Of course if you have Outrage (more much unsafe path as Nattorei will pick you appart and make DNite useless with T-Wave + Leech Seed) you just scrap that.
Most important moves should be listed first. Extremespeed is the main reason to use Choice Band Draggy. Brick Break is just too weak to even be of use and Earthquake is just a no-no with all the baloons running around. Multi-scale is pointless because your going to be taking residual damage from switching in and out, so why not use the much more powerful Superpower?
Tpunch is very useful if your team has a problem with Gyarados, and you wish DD Dragonite to lure it in for an intimidate and send it to its death. +0 nonLO Tpunch does 79.4% - 93.6% to Restalk Gyara, killing it outright with either a LO, Rocks, prior damage, or a second DD. None of DD Dnite's other moves can really scratch Gyara (really the only thing I can think of that's common on any Dnite is Thunder/Draco Meteor), so it'll come into you quite often. It also hits random waters slightly harder than Dclaw, and hits Skarm for decent middling damage (which Fire Punch does not in rain).
Overall it isn't a great move but its perhaps worth mentioning in the Additional comments for the set.
If all Dream Pokemon are Male, how does it get both Extremespeed and Miracle Scale? I'm also confused on the mechanics of Dream World, so that may be the problem.
I read on another site (don't remember which, and I haven't seen it confirmed on here) that you can breed a dream world male holding an everstone with a Ditto to pass on the Ability, Then when you get a female Dratini with Marvel Scale you can give that the everstone and breed it with another Dragonite family member that gets extreme speed. Assuming this works thats the only way to get both Extremespeed and Miracle Scale on a Dragonite, that I can see.
If all Dream Pokemon are Male, how does it get both Extremespeed and Miracle Scale? I'm also confused on the mechanics of Dream World, so that may be the problem.
I read on another site (don't remember which, and I haven't seen it confirmed on here) that you can breed a dream world male holding an everstone with a Ditto to pass on the Ability, Then when you get a female Dratini with Marvel Scale you can give that the everstone and breed it with another Dragonite family member that gets extreme speed. Assuming this works thats the only way to get both Extremespeed and Miracle Scale on a Dragonite, that I can see.
Ok, thats what I was confused about. I kept seeing stuff about only males being found in dream world and that causing problems with egg moves and it messed with my mind. Thanks for clearing that up.
By the way, Life Orb is listed as a primary item because Dragonite needs the power. If Dragonite is running Roost or has to set up in front of a faster Pokemon at full health, MultiScale will still save it from heavy damage. The order of activation should go like this:
1. Faster opponent attempts to KO Full-Health Dragonite, but activates MultiScale.
2. Dragonite attacks, Life Orb recoil. The recoil technically doesn't matter much because you're doing heavy damage to the guy anyway.
If the opponent is slower than you, you get recoil at full health, but at the same time you're KOing the opponent AND Roosting off the damage (in most cases), so Life Orb is primary.
EDIT: BTW Lulzer, Aldaron's proposal has been passed. This means that Drizzle can stay in OU, but it can't be used with Swift Sim users. Dragonite still benefits from Drizzle Politoed, so I strongly suggest you get on this.
While rain not banned yet, I'll post my set:
Rain Abuser
move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Surf
move 4: Thunder
ability: Multi Scale
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spd
Pretty straightforward, max offensive power in the rain. Hurricane is the main attack, as it has sky high base power with decent typing and nice 30% confusion chance just in case. Surf and Thunder to abuse rain and Meteor as last option.
Rapid Spin and obviously Rain support is a must. With it Dragonite can wreck a lot.
Evs are pretty dumb, but while experimenting with it, I found no really good distribution. This Dragonite needs no speed (there is plenty of swift swimmers), but as max power, as it can, thus max SpA and Specs.
