Stealth Rock Discussion

[Sprocket]

Stealth rock can never be detrimental to your team and is always a good thing.

Unless your opponent uses Magic Coat, but that's a different story.

All in all, I would have to agree with everything you've said, alphatron.

Although I would like to see more variety in entry hazards than Stealth Rocks, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes, and more ways of countering entry hazards than abilities and rapid spin alone. Something similar to overall field effects like you see from the three Pledge moves except applicable in singles as well.

 

[AK707]

Stealth grass... I always wanted there to be an additional elemental type for stealth rock, would lead to some interesting mindgames.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

To be honest, I'm not much of a fan of entry hazards at all. Spikes and Toxic Spikes are a lot less of a deal than Stealth Rock, due to immunity by Flying types and the longer set up, which is why we're only seeing the argument against Stealth Rock.

It just feels a bit confining to feel like you have to have an entry hazard inducer, a Rapid Spinner, and a Spin-blocker all on a team. It narrows down your options by a bit, and it cripples a lot of other potentially interesting pokemon like Yanmega (one of my favorite pokemon) and Moltres, along with a lot of others.

I doubt it would ever get banned, but personally, I wouldn't mind if it disappeared.

 

[voodoo pimp]

It just feels a bit confining to feel like you have to have an entry hazard inducer, a Rapid Spinner, and a Spin-blocker all on a team.

I never felt this to be the case, and I think everyone who says so is exaggerating. I've made plenty of viable teams without any of those, even more so in Gen V.

 

[Bombkirby]

Agreed. Its way too important. My friends and I just agree to not use SR at all when facing each other as none of us want to waste a pokemon slot on some lame rapid spinner.

I never felt this to be the case, and I think everyone who says so is exaggerating. I've made plenty of viable teams without any of those, even more so in Gen V.

Well its pretty true. It sometimes feels like you NEED a a Entry Hazard pokemon. Even more so you really NEED a Rapid Spinner if you want to certain Pokemon, EI: ones who are 4x weak to SR, ones that need full health to preform well (Sturdy Pokemon/Multiscale Pokemon.)

Lets deny it no longer....its totally overcentralized. Its not a unique strategy....its a requirement...or just really GOOD to the point where most people run it....and even MORE people prepare to defend against it.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

If you really want to run a Yanmega team then hell yeah, you do need a way to keep SR off the field (Xatu, Espeon, Forretress, Taunt, Yanmega as a lead, all at once, whatever) but that's more or less like having to kill Blissey before sending in your non-Trick Starmie. I use a Volcarona along with Xatu in my team, but Xatu isn't there merely to stop Stealth Rock for Volcarona, just like Forretress isn't used merely because of Rapid Spin (or Stealth Rock). You guys talk as if people need to use a horrible pokémon only to Rapid Spin, but it's not always like that, just like even SR-weak pokémon are used without support. I use Xatu because I don't want to lose 50% of Volcarona's health but, if it lost only 25%, I wouldn't even care that much, really. She just needs to switch in once, after all.

Stealth Rock is also the only way to "counter" Ground-immune pokémon, which are immune to Spikes (the only entry hazard in ADV), Toxic Spikes (which is a big deal even if it has a limited distribution) and Earthquake (the most used physical move in ADV and then DPPt). If you complain about Stealth Rock now, then I'd like to see you complaining about Flying pokémon and Volcarona. Of course, we could it would be a *bit* easier to play around them when your pokémon don't take 6.25-25% every time they switch in on SR-weak pokémon but what seems better, not take ~12% damage trying to switch in on X, or having X losing 25% every time?

Besides, I wonder what would switch in on Latios/Hydreigon in this scenario.

 

[chrisrandom9]

Those pokemon were worthless anyway. The only competitively viable pokemon that was affected in gen IV was Yanmega (it would dominate without a SR weakness) the rest of those pokemon wouldn't impressive in standard even with a neutrality to Stealth Rock.

Regice was OU in gen 3.

Although really it's beside the point, the game would be worse for losing hazards

 

[Gairyuki789]

See the posts of "stealth rock must be used." is what bugs me in general.

considering that Stealth Rock does damage more in preportion to Type than it does normal damage like spikes or trying to poison someone with TS (Of course Poison and Steel types are immune to the latter.) i beleive is the problem people have with it.

At most i'd just be happy with Stealth rock's damaging system being modified abit, so it stops from being a "You must have this move or your team instantly fails." ordeal.

Be really nice if they made it to where you'd have to set it up at least twice for it to do the ammount of damage it does to pokemon like say charizard, or have it do the same ammount of damage to all pokemon bar Rock/Ground/Steel kinda like toxic spikes.

 

[Sensei_Bobbilytus]

I wonder, why Double Team is bannned to Evasion Clause, but para-fusion isn't deemed 'luck-based'...?

Honestly, most of the posts FOR SR only seem to reinforce why it should be removed from the metagame. Each and every post seems to make one of two points;

1) Either every team out there should have it, it has absolutely no downside what-so-ever, it gives you a distinct, possibly game-winning advantage for using it, and if you can't deal with it, don't play (which to me, qualifies as broken), or,
2) The fact that it makes pokemon weak to it die after two switch-ins without even being directly attacked just makes them bad pokemon, rather than making SR a broken move, and it's okay because people are too sick of it for it to be a big deal this gen.

When you can break down team roles into Hazard Layer, Hazard remover, LeadTaunter, and SpinBlocker, all based soley around one single move, and each team needs at least one of those roles, if not more, I think that's over-centralizing. When people can easily opt out of SR for spikes because most players are too uncreative to run fliers out of fear from SR, it's over-centralizing.
When it comes right down to it, SR and entry hazards in general are moves that are favored by a brutal, quick-paced metagame full of players who want their matches to feature the same pokemon and last 5 minutes tops. It renders a lot of pokemon useless, and encourages the all-too-metagame-defining 'force the switch' playstyle, which is almost entierly devoid of skill or stratagy, in favor of pre-scripted warstories about how cool you are for taunting their SRocker, setting up your own, and switching to your ghost-type when they switch to their rapid-spinner. You might as well just pull out a calculator and do some math homework while rolling dice, because that's about as much skill and thought things like SR brings competative pokemon to.


Nobody NEEDS SR, unless they just simply aren't confident in their ability to actually play without it, becuase their beloved OU pokemon fall flat in their ability to OHKO without hazard support, and get knocked out proptly by a nice sturdy tank. I play with Item Clause for the same reason; most players don't know what to do when they can't rely on Leftovers or LifeOrb for their damage calcs.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I guess someone's mad.

At most i'd just be happy with Stealth rock's damaging system being modified abit, so it stops from being a "You must have this move or your team instantly fails." ordeal.

Be really nice if they made it to where you'd have to set it up at least twice for it to do the ammount of damage it does to pokemon like say charizard, or have it do the same ammount of damage to all pokemon bar Rock/Ground/Steel kinda like toxic spikes.

First paragraph: Not going to happen. Smogon doesn't change game mechanics, it adheres to them.

Second paragraph: Game Freak clearly wanted to make all three hazards different (typeless damage with three stages, Poison status with two stages, type-based damage with one stage). If anything, they may change it in the future to affect only Ground-immune pokémon (after all, that's what Stealth Rock was made for, if you think about it), but don't get too much into "what if"'s because it doesn't help anything.

 

[Sprocket]

I've played teams where my Stealth Rock user (usually my Lead) gets smashed in the face before I get a chance to use it, and I still win the match. It just means I have to deal with my opponent being able to switch team members with imputiny.

Honestly, Stealth Rocks are about as common as other hard hitting moves as Flamethrower, Surf, and Ice Beam. To pretend they don't exist is naive.

 

[alexwolf]

Those pokemon were worthless anyway. The only competitively viable pokemon that was affected in gen IV was Yanmega (it would dominate without a SR weakness) the rest of those pokemon wouldn't impressive in standard even with a neutrality to Stealth Rock.

this is such a lie...first of all you can't know what they would be 'cause you don't have practical experience with them.and also i don't think that a charizard which only loses 12,5% of its health when switching in wouldn,t be uu or even ou...he has very good stats(very fast with nice special attack,not very fragile)and very good typing(except that freaking sr weakness)...my guess is that it would have been a solid uu if it wasn't for sr... same goes for articuno...sure he has an awful typing but with these defences it doesn't matter so much(regirock,tyranitar and many more).he also has roost and a nice speed stat to abuse it...my guess is uu for this guys also without sr. i think that the problem with sr is that the damage done to pokes weak to it is far greater than it should be...12,5% to every poke hit neutral by it is fine.but 25% and 50% to 2x and 4x weak pokes is unacceptable... it would be so much better if the damage dealt was 18,5% and 25% to 2x and 4x weak respectively...and finally the damage to resistors would be 6,25 to 2x resistant pokes and 1% to 4x resistant pokes(this way sr would be increasing by 6,25 in every level except for 4x resistors which receive 1% instead of 0% so that they can't switch in for free). imagine how much less restricting sr would be this way...sure you still wouldn't be switching in and out all the time with sr weak pokes,but you could actually use them a little if you coudn't keep sr off the field...

 

[Demoness]

Sensei@ all your post seems to be saying is that "I hate this move and playstyle, ban it now!" Not every match is the same pokemon and lasts 5 minutes. Making absolutley rediculous hypperboles in an attempt to make your arguement have any merit is not going to work.

 

[Deaga]

Hey guys it's not 2007 anymore, you don't shouldn't be thinking SR is broken!!

Honestly, with Team Preview and the fact that SR is no longer a TM (so out of all new Pokémon, only a few get the move), it's a lot less prevalent than it was last gen. Team Preview basically killed suicide leads, meaning that SR won't even be up on Turn 1 in the games it shows up.

And you can always use Magic Mirror stuff to troll your opponent. While Xatu and Espeon are pretty crappy by themselves, Magic Mirror is a fucking awesome ability and easily justifies using any of those two.

 

[Sprocket]

Let's not forget that Volcarona has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rocks, and will probably be one of the most popular Bug Pokemon for a long time.

 

[zarator]

I like how the side pro-SR ban kindly forget of how many Pokémon are kept in check by Stealth Rock.

Without the passive damage of Stealth Rock putting dangerous threats like Volcarona, Hydreigon or Latios on a sort of "timer", these Pokémon would be all the more devastating, being able to fire off their high powered attacks indefinitely. Now, I know we have no proof Hydreigon and friends would be broken without SR, but the fact SR here is being "nominated" without even thinking of the RELEVANT consequences (no one cares about Charizard...) proves his naivity.

Bottom line is, there's no reason we should test a move which, while being so common (as if Earthquake or Fire Blast aren't...), keeps in check many dangerous threats which could break the metagame if not hampered by Stealth Rock.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Personally, I don't feel that there is anything wrong with stealth rocks. I honestly don't find it to be that centralizing. Which seems to the exact opposite, of what other pro-rocks people here believe. Most of you seem to believe that we NEED stealth rocks, thats its a "nessisary evil," as one said. Is that true? Stealth rocks didn't stop Salamance from being banned, and most pokemon weak to it aside from Moltres and Yanmega, are not to greatly effected by them. Volcanora is a great example, seeing as stealth rocks doesn't even faise the monster, and Zapdos is about as prevelent as it was last gen, and honestly I am not worring about a Zapdos sweeping me. What does stealth rocks do that other entry hazards don't do? Hit levitators? Wooty freaking do! Net a few useful KOs? Super, thats great for you. Honestly, I find it only useful on stall teams, and the current metagame isn't over-stallish? Any anyone ever tested a metagame without stealth rocks, aside from a few tournies? My bet is the metagame would change very little, with only a few pokemon poping up to stardom.

I find it very interesting, how people with 2 very diferent views can agree on something, for vastly diferent reasons.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

I like how the side pro-SR ban kindly forget of how many Pokémon are kept in check by Stealth Rock.

Without the passive damage of Stealth Rock putting dangerous threats like Volcarona, Hydreigon or Latios on a sort of "timer", these Pokémon would be all the more devastating, being able to fire off their high powered attacks indefinitely. Now, I know we have no proof Hydreigon and friends would be broken without SR, but the fact SR here is being "nominated" without even thinking of the RELEVANT consequences (no one cares about Charizard...) proves his naivity.

Bottom line is, there's no reason we should test a move which, while being so common (as if Earthquake or Fire Blast aren't...), keeps in check many dangerous threats which could break the metagame if not hampered by Stealth Rock.

Maybe those guys are overpowered without Stealth Rock...but maybe not. Why not test it? It's easy to say what'll be broken or not, but we can't tell unless we do some good old-fashioned testing.

I don't think it'll hurt to see. If it turns out that the guys are sweeping too much, then you were right and we were wrong. If not...well, maybe we have a valid point then.

 

[voodoo pimp]

I like how the side pro-SR ban kindly forget of how many Pokémon are kept in check by Stealth Rock.

Without the passive damage of Stealth Rock putting dangerous threats like Volcarona, Hydreigon or Latios on a sort of "timer", these Pokémon would be all the more devastating, being able to fire off their high powered attacks indefinitely. Now, I know we have no proof Hydreigon and friends would be broken without SR, but the fact SR here is being "nominated" without even thinking of the RELEVANT consequences (no one cares about Charizard...) proves his naivity.

Bottom line is, there's no reason we should test a move which, while being so common (as if Earthquake or Fire Blast aren't...), keeps in check many dangerous threats which could break the metagame if not hampered by Stealth Rock.

And yet you blindly assert that all of those Pokémon would be broken without it. Have you tested a metagame without SR to determine that?

 

[Synth_Metal]

I find Stealth Rock similar to Ice Shard on Mamoswine or Stone Edge on Coneldurr. It's not necessarly needed, but it helps keeps many things in check like salamance and dragonite that would otherwise wreck your team.

 

[alexwolf]

of course sr is needed so every pokemon in the game is forced to take some damage by switching in,but not as strong as this one...
rly 4x weak pokes lose 50% of their health just by switching in???
this sounds a little bit overpowered to me...
in what world is it fair for specific types in the game to lose such large amounts of their health just by switching in????
why ice types which alrdy suck have also sr to bother???
why you see discrimination even in pokemon??? anyway i think if they made the damage dealt to be 1%/6,25%/12,5%/18,5%/25% for 0,25x,0,5x,1x,2x,4x respectively then this damn move wouldn't be so freaking overpowered...
but the way it is right now???of course it is overpowered and overcentralizing as hell having the influence to place pokemons in tiers depending only to their sr weakness...
but despite the brokeness of this damn move the metagame would collapse without it cause so many pokes would get free switch ins and stall would be nonexistent...
that's why i believe my version of sr is the best..
it keeps in check every thhreat from coming in for free but doesnt punish pokes weak to it so hard... damn gamefreak...why you suck so much????

 

[Sprocket]

There's a reason why many perfectly viable OU Pokemon aren't OU, and it doesn't have anything to do with Stealth Rock. Most of them are just inferior specimens compared to other Pokemon.

Given the choice between Scyther and Scizor, and ignoring Stealth Rocks, how often would you use Scyther over Scizor? Scizor has vastly superior Attack, vastly superior defenses (only one weakness, immunity to Toxic, 4x resistance to Grass and 2x resistance to most attacks), wicked strong priority attack (STAB Technician Bullet Punch, which is also a Steel type so it hammers Ice, Rock) coming off of a very high Attack stat (base 130).

What does Scyther have over Scizor? Higher speed (base 105 vs base 65), immunity to Ground, STAB Aerial Ace instead of STAB Bullet Punch. However it also has five weaknesses (including a 4x weakness to Rock!), reduced Defense (base 80 vs base 100), and lower Attack (base 110 vs base 130), not to mention Bug/Flying is a weaker defensive type (3 resistances) to Bug/Steel (9 resistances). Bullet Punch takes care of Scizor's middling speed stat.


While Scizor will likely survive a Stone Edge, Scyther is guaranteed to be OHKO'd by it, even at full health. A large number of Pokemon carry Stone Edge for coverage versus Flying types.

Scyther also shares the same weakness to Fire attacks that it's evolution has.

Honestly I can't think of too many reasons why I'd want a Scyther instead of a Scizor for those reasons alone. And again, that's ignoring the presence of Stealth Rock.

As for Pokemon like Articuno, Ice/Flying is a very weak defensive type (weak to Electric, Rock, Steel, Fire, all common attack types), and Articuno's stats aren't exactly stellar for a legendary either.

It almost sounds to me like Stealth Rock haters have a problem with the Rock type itself.


Also keep in mind, the OU tier is based on usage, with Uber Pokemon being too powerful for OU, and BL Pokemon being too powerful for the UU tier. You can still use NU, UU and BL Pokemon in OU; the reason they're in NU, UU or BL in the first place is because they aren't used as much as OU Pokemon.

 

[cantab]

People who don't want to play with SR should go and ORGANISE a whole bunch of matches without it. Arranged matches, a tourney, a ladder on your own server, whatever. Once you can understand the SR-less metagame, and how it compares to that with SR, there'll be a much better basis to decide whether the move should be in standard.

 

[Kibago]

I personally think SR should have been banned in gen #4 - it was clearly more over-centralizing then any of the individual pokes banned (Chomp excepted...maybe) and you pretty much had to use it on any serious team (where as no pokemon could ever be considered a must.)

...but it's nowhere near as omni-present this time. (note: i only play DW.) Magic Mirror helps, sure, but I'm not sure if it's the reason. all i can do is look at the fact that suicide SR leads just don't see anywhere near the same use anymore. i've made teams with SR and without and the former didn't perform any better because of it. the OU pokemon most obviously affected by it (Volcarona) can still sweep with it up. so a SR ban in gen 5 just doesn't seem logical to me.

 

[Kibago]

and I'd use Scyther over Scizor in no-SR-land because of Eviolite. =) it'd be worse at most of Scizor's jobs, but a better SD+Roost sweeper.