You should definitely mention focus sash on cloyster to prevent it being destroyed by politoeds focus blast etc. Also it gets walled by most steels if it doesn't carry shell blade (metagross, I'm looking at you) and it gets walled by specially defensive politoed
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Cloyster (Analysis)
- Thread starter zdrup15
- Start date
^does it matter though because once someone sees a cloyster chances are unless they have a counter for it, they'll withdraw from the fight in fear it could be the leader with a sash...
Unless there's more than Two pokemon that can go against this thing outright, It should be considered for ubers.
Unless there's more than Two pokemon that can go against this thing outright, It should be considered for ubers.
If you don't have a high-speed scarfer, priority user, or physically defensive bulky water, then yeah, Cloyster is going to rock your world. Consider CS Thundurus or Mienshao, NP Lucario, or Unaware Curse Quagsire, all of which are generally useful and stop Shell Break sweeps in their tracks.
You don't need two counters at all. Any one of these—and these are just examples—will stop Cloyster cold.
^I was referring to the notion that it seems Empoleon and Poliwrath seem to be the only solid counters to this thing from the schematic's on the previous page.
Although prediction does play a huge part as well so I'll retract a little of what I said about it being totally invincible, my Hydregedion OHKO'ed one with a Draco Meteor in an online random match i was in a few hours ago.
Although prediction does play a huge part as well so I'll retract a little of what I said about it being totally invincible, my Hydregedion OHKO'ed one with a Draco Meteor in an online random match i was in a few hours ago.
Cloyster has 45 base SpD.
that seems to be the only way to take it out without it having a sash, go for it's weaker defense area.
CS Mienshao will always OHKO the Shell Break set with High Jump Kick if it hits (100.4% - 118.6% with no def debuff), regardless of item or whether it's before or after the Shell Break, and outspeeds the spread in the OP. Just sayin'.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
GPing now.
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GP: 1/2
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There we go.zdrup15 said:
Pokedex Page
[Overview]
<p>Since Generation I, Cloyster has been seen mainly as a supporter Pokemon. It had a great Defense stat and the ability to set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes, but this was basically everything it could do. However, Ssince there were so many better Pokemon to do this for this role, such as Forretress, Roserade, and even Froslass, Cloyster was always relegated to the lower tiers.</p>
<p>But then Generation V came in and, with it, Cloyster received a gift it could only have dreamed with of: Shell Smash. With one of the best boosting moves around, the clamp now finds itself being able to perform an entirely different role;as it is now one of the most threatening sweepers around. When one also takes into account its ability, Skill Link, Cloyster can abuse 125 Base Power Icicle Spears and Rock Blasts that, at +2 Attack, will destroy anything that doesn't resist them. Its Water-type move of choice also makes sure that Steel-types aren't sure-fire counters as a +2 STAB Hydro Pump or Razor Shell will inflict huge damage to most of them.</p>
<p>However, Cloyster isn't without its flaws. The Its Ice-typeing means that it takes 25% of damage to switch in thanks to Stealth Rock and that it is weak to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave. With Conkeldurr and Lucario around available, one has to make sure they are eliminated first or Cloyster won't be able to set up and sweep after setting up. Cloyster also has some troubles getting past bulky Water-types such as Jellicent and Vaporeon that can burn or phaze it, and thus preventing a sweep. After reading this, there's only one more thing to say: Arceus Bless Shell Smash!</p>
[SET]
name: Shell Smash
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Icicle Spear
move 3: Rock Blast
move 4: Shell Blade / Hydro Pump
item: Life Orb / White Herb
ability: Skill Link
nature: Jolly / Naive
evs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This is the set Cloyster should always use. With a very good Defense stat, Cloyster will have many chances to set up. After the clamp manages to use Shell Smash, its Attack and Speed skyrocket to 578 and 500, respectively. Icicle Spear is the main attack and, thanks to Cloyster's ability Skill Link and STAB, it gets to a whoopping 187 Base Power, thus and destroyings everything that doesn't resist it. To show how true this sentence is, specially defensive Ferrothorn is OHKOed by Icicle Spear and the standard set will often be OHKOed with a layer of Spikes. Rock Blast is the other very useful move Cloyster may carry to abuse Stealth Rock I don't know what this sentence is supposed to say, but I do know that it isn't saying it. It helps by giving some coverage against Ice- and Water-type Pokemon, the latter being the most important because otherwise, these would wall Cloyster even more badly almost entirely. The final slot brings one of the decisions one should has to make when using this set. Since Cloyster has a much higher Attack than Special Attack - 578 against 412 - and the fact Hydro Pump would require a drop in the clamp's defenses, Shell Blade is the superior option to hit the Steel-types that resist both of the previous moves.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>A Jolly nature with 208 Speed EVs are needed to outspeed Scarf Garchomp after a Shell Smash. Then one should use 252 Attack EVs to maximize the damage output and the rest into HP to give a small boost to Cloyster's bulk. Life Orb is the preferred item to power up the clamp's attacks but White Herb nullifies the defense drops from Shell Smash, and thus being is useful to maintain Cloyster's bulk. The first three moves on the set are, due to Skill Link, irreplaceable and thus, the only change that should be considered is Hydro Pump over Shell Blade. Hydro Pump has the benefit of hitting most Steel-types for greater damage due to their superior Defense stat This seems to be the opposite of what you said in the set comments. However, when using it, one should go with a Naive nature so as not to hurt Cloyster's sweeping capabilities and to still outspeed Scarf Garchomp after a boost. If one wants Cloyster to have more power, an Adamant or Naughty nature can be used with an EV spread of 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spe to outspeed Scarf Darmanitan and Kyurem after the boost.</p>
<p>Due to the sheer power of this set, there aren't many Pokemon that can counter it. However, Empoleon resists every attack Cloyster carries and can OHKO back with Grass Knot. Entry hazards can also limit the clamp's potential so Magnezone is a great teammate that can trap and KO Empoleon and, as a bonus, it can trap some of the most common entry hazards set uppers users, such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress. The aforementioned entry hazards also limit Cloyster's potential so having a teammate with Rapid Spin is a good idea. Forretress is the one that synergizes better with the clamp and it can also set up entry hazards to help Cloyster sweep.</p>
[Other Options]
<p>Outside of using Shell Smash, Cloyster doesn't have many other options. It can still set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes but, with the return of Deoxys-S and the appearance of Ferrothorn to lay down Spikes, and the new abilities of Nidoqueen and Forretress got that help them setting up Toxic Spikes, Cloyster is now even more outclassed at this job. The last thing it can do is to use Rapid Spin to support its team but Forretress, Starmie, Tentacruel, and Excadrill can spin entry hazards more efficiently.</p>
[Checks and Counters]
<p>Empoleon is the only true counter to Cloyster because its typing grants resistance against the three attacks Cloyster will often carry. It can then OHKO the clamp back with Grass Knot. Entry hazards are the second thing Cloyster should be aware of as it is weak to Stealth Rock and vulnerable to Spikes and Toxic Spikes that can limit and, sometimes, prevent a sweep. Water-types are also tough to take down as, for example, Jellicent and Vaporeon can both come in while Cloyster uses Shell Smash and, if they're healthy enough, threaten it out thanks to both having a status move and the latter also has Roar. If entry hazards are up, this can be done multiple times due to the fact they both have recovery moves, and Cloyster will eventually lose.</p>
<p>Strong priority users can also abuse the drop in the defenses drop to KO Cloyter. Lucario is the most threatening among these and its Vacuum Wave targets the clamp's very frail Special Defense, thus OHKOing it. Conkeldurr is, however, the most common of the dangerous priority users and can deal at least 53% with Mach Punch, so if Stealth Rock is on the field, it can stop Cloyster won't be able to attacking more than twice if the opponent has the aforementioned Fighting-type. Finally, Pokemon that are faster than Garchomp can still outspeed Cloyster after a boost if they hold a Choice Scarf. Luckily, the most common is Starmie that has no troubles OHKOing with Thunderbolt, but even the star only rarely is found holding it.</p>
[Dream World]
<p>Cloyster gets Overcoat as its Dream World ability. Overcoat should never be used because without Skill Link, Cloyster can no longer count with on reliable and high powered moves such as Icicle Spears and Rock Blasts, thus losing its main niche in OU.</p>
GP: 1/2
Before this goes to GP, some counters are missing. CS Mienshao outspeeds and always OHKOs even White Herb sets with Hi Jump Kick; it's the only common physical scarfer that can do that, near as I can tell. Unaware Quagsire can Recover-stall LO Cloyster to death, and set up on or just kill other Cloysters, as Quags runs Recover and Leftovers, LO Pump does 47.2% - 55.3%, and LO Icicle Spear does 43.1% - 53.3%.
Quick typo fix.
Also, this implies that special Lucario needs to abuse the defense drop to KO Cloyster, which is incorrect. Before the defense drop, even Jolly Leftovers Lucario does 80.6% - 94.9% with unboosted Vacuum Wave; LO or Modest makes it a clean OHKO. Only physical priority users (which is most of them, admittedly) need the help from the defense drop.
Speaking of which, maybe it'd be a good idea to make it clearer that running White Herb specifically protects you from priority revenge and physical scarfers? It's obvious that it "maintains Cloyster's bulk," but there's no explanation to a new player why you'd want to do that. In my experience, LO Cloyster can break walls but needs revengers gone, while WH Cloyster's needs are reversed.
How is CS Mienshao a counter? It's a check as are every Pokemon faster than Garchomp with a Choice Scarf like I wrote on the second paragraph of [Checks and Counters] so I won't change it.
Unaware Quagsire will be added after the bulky waters.
I'll fix the typo.
Yes, I calced Modest Lucario's Vacuum Wave but you're right, the sentence gives the impression Lucario needs the drop; I will fix it.
Conkeldurr deals 53% minimum if Cloyster is at +0 so I'm taking MH into account (otherwise it wouldn't be the minimum). I'll add the "less prone to be revenged" part after the White Herb mention.
All in all thanks for the good post!
Sorry, I condensed that out of a desire to not be line-by-line replying guy, but I made it less clear. CS Mienshao probably deserves special callout as an outspeeding check. WH Cloyster can usually take a hit from a physical scarfer, OHKO back, and keep on sweeping; Garchomp (which doesn't outspeed, but just to illustrate) does 46.6% - 54.9% with Outrage. Mienshao is a rare exception, because HJK always OHKOs if it doesn't miss. As far as I can tell there isn't any other physical scarfer that can guarantee an OHKO. CS Terrakion OHKOs with Close Combat about half the time, but I've never seen one of those holding a Choice Scarf.
Wee
also Somalia is right about move pluralization; All moves are singular, even if you are referring to more than one of a move. Like deer, fish, or POKEMON.
;)
GP CHECK TWO
remove
add
(comments will be in these)
-clamp < clam for Cloyster unless I am mistaken
-Nicknames for Pokemon are only if they are EXTREMELY used or they are the subject of the analysis
keep up the good work
GP APPROVED 2/2
also Somalia is right about move pluralization; All moves are singular, even if you are referring to more than one of a move. Like deer, fish, or POKEMON.
;)
GP CHECK TWO
remove
add
(comments will be in these)
-Nicknames for Pokemon are only if they are EXTREMELY used or they are the subject of the analysis
keep up the good work
GP APPROVED 2/2
First off, I know this analysis is done. I wouldn't be posting here unless I had a big problem with it. I assume what im proposing here will take a lot of convincing so ill make sure to be thorough.
This analysis to way too one-dimensional to me. The overview and the lone set all but say "Cloyster can only work with Shell Smash". There is a mention of a utility set in Other Options but says it is outclassed by Forretress, Nidoqueen, Ferrothorn, and Deoxys-S. Last generation I would agree. Weakness to all hazards really made it suck in this role as I found in practice.
However, I saw a post in a #1 ranked Dream World RMT in which the team's owner said he had been using an "odd" bulky Cloyster to great success, even though it wasn't in the original post. You can probably tell what this led to, I tried and it worked amazingly. Its lack of potential to switch in on anything has vanished, and now that Stealth Rock users are easier to stop thanks to them being more predictable, it's much easier to keep it off the field. For example, a strong fighting type such as Lucario can OHKO the two most common users in the game, Ferrothorn and Tyranitar, meaning statiscally (both are on 20% of teams) 2/5 of the time (probably more factoring in other users) Lucario alone can pressure SR off the field.
Keeping SR off the field helps a Utility set just as much (if not more) than it does a sweeper set because Utility pokemon see much more action throughout the game. Previously, Cloyster couldn't switch in often. Now, you can just look at the top used pokemon and you see it has plenty of chances to take advantage of its bulk and movepool. I will be using smogon rated statistics here-
#4 Garchomp, #5 Gliscor, #18 Skarmory, #21 Gyarados, #23 Forretress, #35 Swampert, #36 Haxorus, #39 Hippowdon, and #46 Bronzong all are OU pokemon that Cloyster loves to see. Here are some more that are setup bait barring luck-
#7 Excadrill, #12 Jirachi (most common set), # 14 Dragonite- works against anything physical and in fact is the very best counter for a lot of them because it OHKOes with Multi Scale and a Sub up, etc.
Hopefully, I made the point clear that it has chances to switch in constantly, because I was amazed by this fact when I first used it this gen. Now I will add on with how it outclasses the other spikers in many cases. Many of these pokemon it counters in a similar way to Forretress, it walls them, then uses its time to spin or set up on them. Cloyster does this too just as well barring its vulnerability to Toxic. However, Cloyster is much more specialized at this as it has more than enough STAB goodness to counter things in the process and has even better defense to abuse. In fact, its right next to Hippowdon in terms of defense, look at this (Im using a 252/216 +def Cloyster)-
Forretress- Wanna set up on Gliscor? Too bad. Its gonna start Swords Dacing against you and/or Taunt you so you can't even try to set up on it. Cloyster can OHKO with no attack Icicle Spear. Forretress can't counter Garchomp, or anything really. Extra resistances aren't always more useful than an excellent attacking movepool in conjuction with the bulk. I was very pleased to be able to knock out that odd Staraptor I saw that would've forced me to sack Forry, for another example. Cloyster can wear down Forry with Hydro Pump, and is capable of killing almost every Rapid Spinner. Interestingly, these two are particulary similar.
Deoxys-S- Too differently played for a direct comparo, ones bulkier than Skarmory and Forretress while the other is faster than everything.
Nidoqueen- These two actually have AMAZING synergy. Anyway, can you counter Garchomp? Gliscor? Gyarados? Excadrill? Rapid Spin?
Ferrothorn- This would be tough- I know im taking a complete underdog against the king of OU. Ferrothorn may be a more sturdy counter to Gyarados and a hugely more capable mixed wall, but again, look at the top 5 pokemon. Garchomp and Gliscor in particular, Cloyster hard counters them (well I guess bar Draco Meteor from Chomp), and can use Rapid Spin. This stops Skarmory and friends from setting up on it, and its wider coverage between Rock/Ice/Water is much less counterable than Steel/Grass, putting more pressure on most opponents.
Now that ive hopefully covered why it isn't outclassed and why its amazing, I believe you will take a more serious look at this-
Here's a closer look at the set. Rapid Spin alongside a Relaxed Nature allows you to be lag below Skarmory and spin on it, the most common versions are 2HKOed by Hydro Pump, so its biggest threat (hazards) is very easy to handle. 40 spA is there alongside Hydro Pump to make likely OHKOes on Excadrill, Mamoswine, and Terrakion. I ignored the special defense to maximize its physical walling capabilities with a defense stat of 495! 304 HP and 126 spD would take away too much away in my opinion, although you may prevent Garchomp's Fire Blast from 2HKOing you. Spikes gives it something to help aid the efforts of your offensive pokemon while your opponent switches to a counter like Rotom-W or Jellicent.
As for other options, Toxic Spikes and Rock Blast could work. Toxic Spikes can be used over Spikes or Hydro Pump, and Rock Blast can work over Hydro Pump. Both add to your coverage by hitting Fire types, but Hydro Pump is normally better because it helps counter some previously mentioned threats and the special attack helps beat other walls and Forretress, Rock Blast can KO Gyarados quicker and at least scratch Rotom-W/Jellicent, waters in general.
I hope you try this out and see how useful it is. It may be weak to SR, and its list of resistances is the same as its list of STAB attacks, but its still a good set.
This analysis to way too one-dimensional to me. The overview and the lone set all but say "Cloyster can only work with Shell Smash". There is a mention of a utility set in Other Options but says it is outclassed by Forretress, Nidoqueen, Ferrothorn, and Deoxys-S. Last generation I would agree. Weakness to all hazards really made it suck in this role as I found in practice.
However, I saw a post in a #1 ranked Dream World RMT in which the team's owner said he had been using an "odd" bulky Cloyster to great success, even though it wasn't in the original post. You can probably tell what this led to, I tried and it worked amazingly. Its lack of potential to switch in on anything has vanished, and now that Stealth Rock users are easier to stop thanks to them being more predictable, it's much easier to keep it off the field. For example, a strong fighting type such as Lucario can OHKO the two most common users in the game, Ferrothorn and Tyranitar, meaning statiscally (both are on 20% of teams) 2/5 of the time (probably more factoring in other users) Lucario alone can pressure SR off the field.
Keeping SR off the field helps a Utility set just as much (if not more) than it does a sweeper set because Utility pokemon see much more action throughout the game. Previously, Cloyster couldn't switch in often. Now, you can just look at the top used pokemon and you see it has plenty of chances to take advantage of its bulk and movepool. I will be using smogon rated statistics here-
#4 Garchomp, #5 Gliscor, #18 Skarmory, #21 Gyarados, #23 Forretress, #35 Swampert, #36 Haxorus, #39 Hippowdon, and #46 Bronzong all are OU pokemon that Cloyster loves to see. Here are some more that are setup bait barring luck-
#7 Excadrill, #12 Jirachi (most common set), # 14 Dragonite- works against anything physical and in fact is the very best counter for a lot of them because it OHKOes with Multi Scale and a Sub up, etc.
Hopefully, I made the point clear that it has chances to switch in constantly, because I was amazed by this fact when I first used it this gen. Now I will add on with how it outclasses the other spikers in many cases. Many of these pokemon it counters in a similar way to Forretress, it walls them, then uses its time to spin or set up on them. Cloyster does this too just as well barring its vulnerability to Toxic. However, Cloyster is much more specialized at this as it has more than enough STAB goodness to counter things in the process and has even better defense to abuse. In fact, its right next to Hippowdon in terms of defense, look at this (Im using a 252/216 +def Cloyster)-
These are some nice calcs I did while posting my RMT in my signature. This is so fcking tough, even max attack Toxic Orb Breloom can't OHKO it with Focus Punch, among other things. Because a strong fighting type alone can keep the two biggest SR users at bay by itself as I showed earlier this guy gets even tougher to take down. Now how it seperates itself from the other frail spikes setters-
Forretress- Wanna set up on Gliscor? Too bad. Its gonna start Swords Dacing against you and/or Taunt you so you can't even try to set up on it. Cloyster can OHKO with no attack Icicle Spear. Forretress can't counter Garchomp, or anything really. Extra resistances aren't always more useful than an excellent attacking movepool in conjuction with the bulk. I was very pleased to be able to knock out that odd Staraptor I saw that would've forced me to sack Forry, for another example. Cloyster can wear down Forry with Hydro Pump, and is capable of killing almost every Rapid Spinner. Interestingly, these two are particulary similar.
Deoxys-S- Too differently played for a direct comparo, ones bulkier than Skarmory and Forretress while the other is faster than everything.
Nidoqueen- These two actually have AMAZING synergy. Anyway, can you counter Garchomp? Gliscor? Gyarados? Excadrill? Rapid Spin?
Ferrothorn- This would be tough- I know im taking a complete underdog against the king of OU. Ferrothorn may be a more sturdy counter to Gyarados and a hugely more capable mixed wall, but again, look at the top 5 pokemon. Garchomp and Gliscor in particular, Cloyster hard counters them (well I guess bar Draco Meteor from Chomp), and can use Rapid Spin. This stops Skarmory and friends from setting up on it, and its wider coverage between Rock/Ice/Water is much less counterable than Steel/Grass, putting more pressure on most opponents.
Now that ive hopefully covered why it isn't outclassed and why its amazing, I believe you will take a more serious look at this-
This is the set that I used on my team. It brought me so much joy to constantly walk in on Garchomp, Gliscor, Skarmory etc. and laugh in their faces. Icicle Spear was a bunch of fun as well, because its multi-hit use is so commonly useful. You can kill Garchomp through a Sub and Yache Berry, Sub+Protect Gliscor, Sub/DD+Multi Scale Dragonite, Sub Breloom (try to Focus Punch me you cant even 2HKO once im in) and more. These sets have the potential to be so annoying but here you have the absolute hardest stop to them in the game. Killing Focus Sash Aerodactyl is fun too. Its excellent damage output lets it OHKO even Gliscor and 2HKO Gyarados. Finding the limits of its bulk was a fun process as well. You can even leave it in on its weaknesses as long as they don't have a +2 boost and a HUGE attack stat. If you can't subject your team to a Terrakion switch in, stay in and Hydro Pump it, easy KO after the defense drop and you will survive. Besides hard countering some of the toughest sets to face down in the game, you can also beat Excadrill 58.4% of the time if you switch in on a Swords Dance. In theory a Vacuum Wave Luke covers all kinds of things for Cloyster, although it wasn't what I used. This is a true tank, with those STABs the number of physical attackers that don't boost their defenses and beat Cloyster one on one seems to be 0 in practice. Couple this with the ability to set up support against so many of them it is very impressive, raw defensive stats to me have proven capable of replacing defensive stats to become useful.
Here's a closer look at the set. Rapid Spin alongside a Relaxed Nature allows you to be lag below Skarmory and spin on it, the most common versions are 2HKOed by Hydro Pump, so its biggest threat (hazards) is very easy to handle. 40 spA is there alongside Hydro Pump to make likely OHKOes on Excadrill, Mamoswine, and Terrakion. I ignored the special defense to maximize its physical walling capabilities with a defense stat of 495! 304 HP and 126 spD would take away too much away in my opinion, although you may prevent Garchomp's Fire Blast from 2HKOing you. Spikes gives it something to help aid the efforts of your offensive pokemon while your opponent switches to a counter like Rotom-W or Jellicent.
As for other options, Toxic Spikes and Rock Blast could work. Toxic Spikes can be used over Spikes or Hydro Pump, and Rock Blast can work over Hydro Pump. Both add to your coverage by hitting Fire types, but Hydro Pump is normally better because it helps counter some previously mentioned threats and the special attack helps beat other walls and Forretress, Rock Blast can KO Gyarados quicker and at least scratch Rotom-W/Jellicent, waters in general.
I hope you try this out and see how useful it is. It may be weak to SR, and its list of resistances is the same as its list of STAB attacks, but its still a good set.
For teammates, I'd like to recommend Scizor or another viable Pursuit user excluding Tyranitar (sand seriously hampers Cloyster's lifespan, seeing as it already has to deal with SE Stealth Rock, Spikes, Priority and possibly Life Orb (White Herb is better in my opinion)). Many of the special threats that outspeed Cloyster take a lot of damage from pursuit, especially Scarfed Gengar and Scarfed Starmie.
Ok, I've finished playtesting the set yee suggested and I will leave it in OO.
It's ok at setting up Spikes and spinning but it can't really wall after switching in to spin because its low HP and the prevalence of Pokemon with strong special attacks (they don't even need to be super effective) greatly hinders it.
It's ok at setting up Spikes and spinning but it can't really wall after switching in to spin because its low HP and the prevalence of Pokemon with strong special attacks (they don't even need to be super effective) greatly hinders it.
What about a max SpDef max HP set with the moves from the spike set. Just like what we do with Blissey, but the only problemen would be HP. I really want to use this beast so I'm trying to find a good set.
Honestly, there's better pokemon to set up entry hazards. If Cloyster is actually having a defensive hazard set implemented, it will have to be after Cloyster's OU analysis has been published, and even then, Cloyster is better of Shell Smashing. Giving Cloyster maximum Special defenses is trying to make it an inferior OU layer in comparison to other common walls.
.
Well, not really inferior but its crappy typing makes it really hard to fit into a team. I agree that trying to give it spD is a waste of time, there's no point trying to set up on say Jellicent or stuff with Scald when you could have a niche counter to substitute things like Garchomp, Gliscor, and Dragonite.