np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[Benlisted]

Really not liking the random anti-all-weather sentiment surfacing here for whatever reason all of a sudden. If a weather really is impossible to balance, as Drizzle is proving to be increasingly, then there is reason to ban it, but just because we don't like the fact the meta is weather centric this gen? SS and Sun have had no attempts made to balance them as with the SwSw+Drizzle ban, so why we suddenly are proposing getting rid of all such abilities when we know how much it would affect the meta seems completely illogical to me.

Also, anything discussing different weathers in the same sentence really doesn't make a good case for getting rid of them, seeing as they all play rather differently especially with Aldaron's proposal in place. The fact that weather suddenly makes certain pokemon really good is also an awful reason to want to ban things - a new development in the meta boosting a pokemon to OU from even NU doesn't necessarily mean the boosting factor is broken in any way, just that the meta has changed.

 

[IcyMan28]

Really not liking the random anti-all-weather sentiment surfacing here for whatever reason all of a sudden. If a weather really is impossible to balance, as Drizzle is proving to be increasingly, then there is reason to ban it, but just because we don't like the fact the meta is weather centric this gen? SS and Sun have had no attempts made to balance them as with the SwSw+Drizzle ban, so why we suddenly are proposing getting rid of all such abilities when we know how much it would affect the meta seems completely illogical to me.

Also, anything discussing different weathers in the same sentence really doesn't make a good case for getting rid of them, seeing as they all play rather differently especially with Aldaron's proposal in place. The fact that weather suddenly makes certain pokemon really good is also an awful reason to want to ban things - a new development in the meta boosting a pokemon to OU from even NU doesn't necessarily mean the boosting factor is broken in any way, just that the meta has changed.

Your post implies that if something is broken, an attempt should be made to balance it. I disagree, it should simply be banned.

As for Sand, it is not nearly as powerful as rain. How many rock-types do you actually see in OU to take advantage of that SpD boost? 1. Furthermore, there are only 3 abusers of sand abilities. Garchomp gets evasion, which is situational as most moves will still hit. Excadrill ia forced to choose between Speed or Power, and it often takes a turn to achieve both. Landorus has no choice and simply uses Sand Force.

Residual damage does not put Sand on par with rain and sun either, mainly because the best walls tend to be immune to sand anyway. You can see Heatran potentially break through Blissey, or Empoleon break through Ferrothorn, but you wont see Excadrill break through Suicune just because of sand damage.

 

[Benlisted]

Your post implies that if something is broken, an attempt should be made to balance it. I disagree, it should simply be banned.

As for Sand, it is not nearly as powerful as rain. How many rock-types do you actually see in OU to take advantage of that SpD boost? 1. Furthermore, there are only 3 abusers of sand abilities. Garchomp gets evasion, which is situational as most moves will still hit. Excadrill ia forced to choose between Speed or Power, and it often takes a turn to achieve both. Landorus has no choice and simply uses Sand Force.

Residual damage does not put Sand on par with rain and sun either, mainly because the best walls tend to be immune to sand anyway. You can see Heatran potentially break through Blissey, or Empoleon break through Ferrothorn, but you wont see Excadrill break through Suicune just because of sand damage.

In most cases, I would entirely agree with you on your first point. However, in the case of an ability with such far-reaching effects as a weather one, I think a special case is needed (as did the majority apparently since Aldaron's proposal went through) due to the huge knock-on effects it has on the metagame. Simply banning such things immediately without attempting to minimise these impacts would surely just result in more harm than good to the meta in terms of destabilisation, etc.

Anyway, I kinda agree with you about SS as well, which is partially why I brought up what I did - there currently seems no reason to ban it, and may well not be unless the other dominant weathers are removed. Though I'd hate to see a knock-on effect of something like: Drizzle's removing meaning Sun is overpowered; then Sun is removed; leaving SS as overpowered etc, it would be the correct way to do things as opposed to simply proposing a blanket ban on weathers not presently broken.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

Your post implies that if something is broken, an attempt should be made to balance it. I disagree, it should simply be banned.

I have seen this said before actually, and I MOSTLY agree with you. During round 2, people were saying that to the people trying to get swift swim + drizzle banned because they didn't feel that we should "balance" rain, but rather get rid of it all together.

How I feel about this is this... this isn't 1 pokemon... this is about 30+ pokemon. This is an ability that has an effect on a huge net of play styles for different pokemon. Screwing over 30 pokemon and an entire play style because of three or four monsters in it? Seems so awkward. Yet some people just feel that it would be easier to be rid of drizzle in general instead of banning 8 or so abusers of it...


So now we have 2 sides to this...

1) Ban drizzle because it seems easier than banning 5-10 pokemon who abuse it brokenly.

2) Balance drizzle by banning those 5-10 pokemon, so that the other 30+ pokemon and the entire play style doesn't get screwed.



Personally, the only pokemon that I feel are really BREAKING rain are Thunderus and Tornadus... and honestly I just want them banned in general. They are way to good, regardless of rain, IMO. Latios with Surf is also pretty scary, but then again, its freaking LATIOS, and hes an asshole already as well.


Normally I would be against "balancing" something rather than just flat out banning it. But this isn't one thing. Drizzle affects so many things... is there ANY simple way we can salvage it? If anything, to keep this meta diverse?

 

[Benlisted]

Normally I would be against "balancing" something rather than just flat out banning it. But this isn't one thing. Drizzle affects so many things... is there ANY simple way we can salvage it? If anything, to keep this meta diverse?

Well, it's in the hands of the voters now, so we can't do anything really. I think the issue now as opposed to last round is - we've tried to balance Drizzle by removing SwSwers from it, and Thundurus and Tornadus amongst others still make it arguably the most threatening weather out there. Since Thundurus (not Tornadus tbh, Thundurus outclasses him) actually has many uses out of Rain, as well as the fact that we've already tried to "fix" Drizzle, the benefits of removing Drizzle as opposed to keeping it (on the rest of the meta) are becoming clear to even me, who vehemently opposed the Drizzle ban last round.

Personally, I still think that we have not reached the point where trying to balance Drizzle is "too much effort" or "detrimental to the rest of the meta" to keep it, but it seems that a lot of people do, and I can see their POV. I'd like to see Thundurus and/or Tornadus go before Drizzle, but if it were still found to be imbalanced after they went I would agree that keeping it was probably both too much hard work for the suspect process and too detrimental to the the rest of the metagame. Imo, it's all about where you draw the line at the effort you're willing to go to keep a huge part of the game, like a weather, part of the meta.

 

[Mishra]

As much as I hate the overcentralization of weather (and me and benlisted went back and forth on this earliar), I don't like the idea of just banning drizzle and drought straight through without looking at the pokes that are abusing it the most. The three I hear come to mind are Blaze (sun) and the two genies (rain). I would rather see a test round where those three are just banned, generally from OU and see if rain is as prevelant (or as powerful) as it was before, rather than just ban the abilities.

And even without an extra stab, I don't think whoever said it, that sand is even as close to weak as it was. One of the issues of running a nonweather team (because I hate weather), is turning off the weather, and sand paddlers w/o the worry of sand going away are really good... I would even consider a ban on ttar, or at least put him up for suspicion.

 

[BAD]

LOL, I like the fact how everyone is talking about weather EXCEPT for Hail. Hail isn't even on people's minds. It's really that bad......

Anyways, I want all perma-weather to stay. This is gen 5, not gen 4. Gen 5 is obviously more weather centric and we should not try to ban the gen 5 metagame to be more like gen 4. Just get used to it and adapt.

 

[Meru]

Your post implies that if something is broken, an attempt should be made to balance it. I disagree, it should simply be banned.

As for Sand, it is not nearly as powerful as rain. How many rock-types do you actually see in OU to take advantage of that SpD boost? 1. Furthermore, there are only 3 abusers of sand abilities. Garchomp gets evasion, which is situational as most moves will still hit. Excadrill ia forced to choose between Speed or Power, and it often takes a turn to achieve both. Landorus has no choice and simply uses Sand Force.

Residual damage does not put Sand on par with rain and sun either, mainly because the best walls tend to be immune to sand anyway. You can see Heatran potentially break through Blissey, or Empoleon break through Ferrothorn, but you wont see Excadrill break through Suicune just because of sand damage.

This post reeks of bias. You do realize residual sand damage is one of the prime reasons why steel types are so dominant in OU? It also shortens a lot of sweepers' lifespans. And you're proposing that Sand shouldn't be banned but Sun should be because Sand has fewer broken mons?

 

[Nanoswine]

Ok, I've been gone since the middle of last week, and what the hell happened here? Going back through the thread, everybody was saying "Drizzle is annoying, but it's managable" or "Latios/Blaziken can be beaten by X," but literally the day the noms thread went up the general opinion changed to "Drizzle is totally uncounterable" and "Latios only has like 2 counters." Last time at least it was clear where all the Reuniclus nominations were coming from, this time around most of the nominations are just completely out of the blue.

I'm glad that in the past the nominations thread did not accurately predict what the actual outcome of the vote would be, because a lot of the nominations this round are just ridiculous. It was less than a week ago that the general consensus was that this was a balanced metagame and there should be no suspects, and in the time since then we've decided to put Drizzle, Drought, and who knows how many Pokemon on the chopping block.

 

[MasterX]

I thought drizzle would of gotten a break after the combo ban but I guess not. If drizzle gets banned, it will turn into a domino effect. People will say sun is too powerful, then sand will dominate until there is nothing left. Drought also got more attention after the combo ban. Sand isn't bad at all. LO+SS is the worst for a sweeper and will cut their health like nothing. Excadrill and landorus are monsters and tyranitars special defense is extremely high in a SS. I think it would be best to leave everything the way it is because drizzle isn't THAT powerful.

 

[alphatron]

Sun gets Chlorophyll and an increase in Fire Stab with many abusers of Chlorophyll and many pokes such as Volcarona which can abuse the nerf of Water moves in Sun.

Yeah, because teams of rapidash, flaeron, heatmor, and moltres are totally tearing up the ladders under the power of drought ninetales.

The viable fire abusers drought gets isn't anywhere near as many as people say they are. No offense meant, but I find it odd that people mention drought's MANY abusers when there really aren't a lot of viable ones. Give me logs of Solar Power Sunflora sweeping teams and I'll admit that I'm wrong (this is hypocritical since I own such a log, but my opponent was pretty bad to be honest).

 

[Thorhammer]

I agree. It's clear by now that both in consensus and in fact, the metagame is completely balanced. While there are certain kinks that should be worked out, nothing that is currently permitted is broken.

The non-Pokemon vote in PR which just ended seems to support this conclusion, which is good to see.

 

[Benlisted]

Pretty much thought that the meta was fairly balanced before the tests, and it seems that at least in terms of playstyles the majority of our voters agree, which is encouraging. Very (pleasantly) surprised neither weather ability was voted to be banned more.
The only mon I'm currently expecting may go is Blaziken, but even then I'm unsure as to whether my feeling about what will happen is right.

 

[alphatron]

As much as I despise rain, I don't think there's anything we need to ban right away. Although I still don't think deoxys-S is good for the metagame. And...

Start of turn 19
Anoxx called Parasect back!
Anoxx sent out Wobbuffet!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Wobbuffet!
The foe's Wobbuffet is hurt by spikes!

Torunerosu used Hurricane!
The foe's Wobbuffet lost 44% of its health!
The foe's Wobbuffet fainted!
Torunerosu is hurt by its Life Orb!

Rain continues to fall!
Anoxx sent out Sharpedo!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Sharpedo!
The foe's Sharpedo is hurt by spikes!

Start of turn 20
The foe's Sharpedo used Protect!
The foe's Sharpedo protected itself!

Torunerosu used Tailwind!
A tailwind started blowing behind alphatron - Traitor's team!

Rain continues to fall!
The foe's Sharpedo's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Sharpedo's Speed rose!

I'm becoming increasingly unable to be reasonable about rain. Like, the only teams I lost to were other rain teams. Rain also cuts down on the number of things that can switch into CM Latios. Yes, CM Latios. He's insane.

 

[IcyMan28]

So nothing changes so far (I guess Brightpowder Garchomp is gone, thankfully). Id be pleasantly surprised if Blaziken stayed, I don't think a Latios/Excadrill/Reuniclus ban will succeedthis time either, and with Drizzle here I think Thundurus is out.

EDIT: Deoxys-s, that's what I forgot. I think it does more good than bad, and would love to see it stay. Dual Screens are equally as dangerous with Latios / Azelf...

 

[Lightning Tiger]

Eh, nothing has changed, Thundurus is probbly going to be gone after this id guess.

I just pray that people learn to deal with Tornadus, i definitely dont want to see that guy banned.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

The BIGGEST thing that bugged me during the nominations was this...:

No one really argued Drizzle being broken in this thread. Not often at least. People argued Thunderus and Tornadus. People argued Latios. People argued Blaziken, Deoxys-S, Duel Screen Shell Smash Passing, and people even argued Reuniclus... But not much about Drizzle...

When the nominations finally came up, Drizzle was thrown into the fray as well as drought. Why? No one discussed it. If everyone really thought it was an issue, then why the hell didn't the community (or at least the NOMINATORS) discuss it thoroughly here first? There seemed to be no real discussion about it before it was put on the chopping block and that means there was no discussion to see what could be done about it.

This, by itself, bugged me. It felt extremely weak, with very little reasoning.

I am glad that they were not voted to be banned, but I am very disappointed with how those nominations took place with very little discussion about it in the first place. Round 2 was littered with insanity about rain and all the different threads about drizzle and all the discussions that were going on. This round, however, feels half assed.




Blah. All that aside, I really hope to see Thunderus go. Between Thunderus, Latios and Blaziken, I can't see why they would even be worth keeping in this meta.

 

[Nashza]

Been a little bit lost for a while. Can anyone give a quick recap as to why Thundurus is so broken (in rain or just in general)? I thought it would've been Tornadus since Hurricane is so ridiculous/annoying...

 

[TEA_DEMON]

The BIGGEST thing that bugged me during the nominations was this...:

wait why do people have to consult with the community about what they personally think is broken exactly?

 

[Buzzcut]

wait why do people have to consult with the community about what they personally think is broken exactly?

Because whining for the sake of whining is annoying.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

Isn't that what this thread is for? Isn't that what this is all about? Bring up suspects, discuss it, figure out what opinions others may have on how to handle it...? Maybe even take suggestions? People are voting for the entirety of the community. I think it should at least be talked about and discussed a bit so we don't have something like that happen again with out warning.

In this case no one said a thing, and they just threw it up there. People can believe what they want on what is broken and what isn't. But to nominate it to ban it with out at least seeing how everyone else was handling these things just seems beyond me.

 

[yee]

Maybe we could just ban a certain effect of an ability, such as ones that give you double speed. Clorophyll and Sand Rush do the exact same thing as Swift Swim and really make it hard to build a team, because you can no longer use a scarfer or a fast pokemon to keep weather sweepers in check, you must use one of the <5 hard counters you can use for every single one of them. We could use a widespread "Aldaron's proposal" on them and ban them with their individual weathers because they obviously don't have any use outside of them.

Say Latios and Blaziken are still too much. Because they don't have auto +2 speed and its clear that the ability on its own isn't causing problems, they should be banned as pokemon instead.

 

[Slightly]

Say Latios and Blaziken are still too much. Because they don't have auto +2 speed and its clear that the ability on its own isn't causing problems, they should be banned as pokemon instead.

I don't think Blaziken was an issue without Speed Boost anyway. So if it is deemed broken, it would be because of the ability.
However I never really seem to have a problem with it.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I really can't express how satisfied I am with this voting. Blaziken can go fuck himself sideways for all I care now, banning a couple (if any) broken pokémon instead of weather will be enough to balance the metagame.

 

[gabezj]

When will voting be finished and the new bans released?