In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Vratix]

As far as Cofagrigus stopping MoxieKrook:
It doesn't.
Use STAB bulldoze or any other Non-contact move. You still get your moxie boost when you take it out and then Crunch will absolutely wreck the rest of Chauntal.

Also eh, Tirtouga is only really good if you got a Sturdy one, Solid Rock isn't going to save it from getting raped by Grass Knot anytime soon. And you need to grind it to get Shell Break, and until then its really slow. Even with Shell Break most of the time you are gonna need another one. You are stuck with Curse until then, and it doesn't boost your shit SpDef as well. Shell Break makes things worse actually. Tirtouga is honestly quite terrible, while Archen can be said to be god tier, this guy just plain sucks. Archen has a Cranidos-like Attack stat, actual Speed, and a decent Special Attack for backup btw.

I used a tirtouga in my first play-through and I was fairly pleased with it. I was lucky enough to get Sturdy though and I did rely on sturdy a number of times so I suppose that made a bit of difference. And while by no means am I going to argue that it is better than Archen I am going to argue that being a water type it may fill a better niche than a flying type plus STAB aqua jet is amazing. This thing soloed the ice gym without trying (literally, I left and thought: huh, Logo Writer soloed the whole gym, that's cool) and he also soloed Cynthia's Garchomp without items**!!! Let's see an Archeops do that.

**it was level 67 at the time.

 

[Chieliee]

As far as Cofagrigus stopping MoxieKrook:
It doesn't.
Use STAB bulldoze or any other Non-contact move. You still get your moxie boost when you take it out and then Crunch will absolutely wreck the rest of Chauntal.

Except that with it's base 145 Def, and you only using a 90 BP(STAB included) move, and the fact that it has WoW(or does it have Toxic?) Searched. It has WoW, Grass Knot, Psychic and Shadow Ball. AND those goddamn E4 members always use their full restores and stuff. So no, with Bulldoze you aren't getting past that coffin

 

[Vratix]

Except that with it's base 145 Def, and you only using a 90 BP(STAB included) move, and the fact that it has WoW(or does it have Toxic?) Searched. It has WoW, Grass Knot, Psychic and Shadow Ball. AND those goddamn E4 members always use their full restores and stuff. So no, with Bulldoze you aren't getting past that coffin

I promise you can. I know that I did and with rather little trouble iirc.

It's been several weeks so I may be a little hazy the minutia of the E4, but I am absolutely certain that I soloed Chauntal (and Caitlin for that matter) with my Krookodile. I may have used a few items but if I did they were Hyper Potions because I didn't buy any Full Restores for the first E4 run. My Krookodile was in the mid-upper 40s at the time. If you're that worried about WoW you could always stick on a Rawst Berry.

 

[Acosta]

Also eh, Tirtouga is only really good if you got a Sturdy one, Solid Rock isn't going to save it from getting raped by Grass Knot anytime soon. And you need to grind it to get Shell Break, and until then its really slow. Even with Shell Break most of the time you are gonna need another one. You are stuck with Curse until then, and it doesn't boost your shit SpDef as well. Shell Break makes things worse actually. Tirtouga is honestly quite terrible, while Archen can be said to be god tier, this guy just plain sucks. Archen has a Cranidos-like Attack stat, actual Speed, and a decent Special Attack for backup btw.

Grass-types are rare and non-threatening enough to not be a huge issue. My Tirtouga had no trouble running through most things in the game, even though it usually had to take a hit first. Sure, Tirtouga isn't as good as Archen, but for in-game, what is? Archen is ridiculous. Tirtouga is nowhere higher than mid or high mid-tier but "quite terrible" is a vast overstatement.

 

[Aquatile]

I actually beat the game with every pokemon type. I used these twelve.
Serperior
Emboar
Samurott
Sigilyph
Excadrill
Vannillice( not sure of actual name):
Gigalith
Hydreigon
Cofagrigus
Scolipede
Eelectrik
Stoutland
Please rate these twelve

 

[Sajak]

As far as Cofagrigus stopping MoxieKrook:
It doesn't.

Right. Krookodile OHKOs the entire team without Moxie. At least mine did, and it was only level 50 at the time (mine had Intimidate anyway).

 

[Lazyboy0337]

Dwebble was great in game for me. Strong STAB and a bit tanky when nessesary. Give it an Eviolite, and it can tank the third gym while hitting hard with Smack Down.

 

[wavves]

which would you guys say is the better pokémon (for in-game purposes, naturally): archeops or sigilyph?

i'm trying to avoid using any particularly stellar pokémon seeing as i used a team of samurott, excadrill, lilligant, darmanitan, reuniclus and galvantula my first time through, but archen and sigilyph are both high-tier right now and they're the only ones that really fit into the last slot of my planned team in terms of coverage.
essentially, what i'm asking is which of the two would be more of a challenge to use? i'm aware that archeops' stats and moves are far superior to those of sigilyph, but at the same time i'm wary of defeatist - does it take effect often enough for it to impact upon archeops' usefulness?

(upon reflection this should probably be in SQSA - my apologies)

 

[Sajak]

I found Sigilyph to be much worse than Archeops. Defeatist never activated that much for me, simply because Archeops OHKOd basically everything that didn't resist Acrobatics. Sigilyph is still very good, but mine seemed to have the same curse as all the others on PO did in that it seemed to draw critical hits frequently. >__>

 

[Heroism]

what. ._.

Hide

Not to mention you may need Speedwings for Ike to not get doubled by a certain enemy in a certain chapter to get a certain character

Spectre card, anyone? And you don't even need to double the BK to wtfpwn him with a hammer in 4-E-2.

But pokemon isn't Fire Emblem, and "shitty" pokemon are definitely usable in-game (plus unlike FE, pokemon don't have growths and can't get RNG screwed). There aren't any goddamn turncounts to worry about here.

Darumaka + victory star is amazing and darumaka by itself can sweep the 4th gym. It's accuracy loss from hustle is boosted by VS and can pretty much OHKO everything that's weak to it. Its speed is sort of meh, but so are the other pokemon that you go up against at this point.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Spectre card, anyone? And you don't even need to double the BK to wtfpwn him with a hammer in 4-E-2.

But pokemon isn't Fire Emblem, and "shitty" pokemon are definitely usable in-game (plus unlike FE, pokemon don't have growths and can't get RNG screwed). There aren't any goddamn turncounts to worry about here.

Darumaka + victory star is amazing and darumaka by itself can sweep the 4th gym. It's accuracy loss from hustle is boosted by VS and can pretty much OHKO everything that's weak to it. Its speed is sort of meh, but so are the other pokemon that you go up against at this point.

FE note aside(you even got the chapter wrong), how are you gonna do Darumaka + VStar in 4th gym? The 4th gym is ELECTRIC types, known for their epic speed. Blitzle and Emolgas are gonna outspeed you every day, and they all take neutral dmg from Fire Punch. Victini is only from an event as well, and there are no doubles in Nimbasa Gym. :/

 

[The Cicada]

Currently at the dragon gym in black, heres my team so far:


Sawk, lvl 44, nature jolly

Brick Break
Bulk Up
Rock Slide
Stength

Samurott:
nature timid, lvl 46

Surf
Aqua Jet
Revenge
Encore

Cobalion: Nature, Quiet, lvl 44

Sacred Sword
Iron Head
Helping Head
Retaliate


Leavany: lvl 46, nature relaxed
Leaf Blade
X-Scissor
Swords Dance
Flash


Galvantula: lvl 46:, nature Modest

Thunder Wave
Chagre Beam
Thunder
Signal Beam


Give my team rate.



Also, i support moving Leavanny to top tier. It's just awesome. When you catch it, it already gots two really good stab moves: Bug bite, and razor leaf, and once it gets to lvl 36, it gets Leaf Blade, then at lvl 39 X-Scissor, two awesome stab moves. I evolved mine from Swadloon at lvl 32.

 

[Tortferngatr]

I found Sigilyph to be much worse than Archeops. Defeatist never activated that much for me, simply because Archeops OHKOd basically everything that didn't resist Acrobatics. Sigilyph is still very good, but mine seemed to have the same curse as all the others on PO did in that it seemed to draw critical hits frequently. >__>

From going into the E4 underlevelled, I can attest to the fact that Sigilyph might want to go down to mid-high/mid. It might be bulky, but not enough so to sweep. Sure, Psybeam+Air Cutter eats everything early game. I found it to be by far the most useless member of my team vs. the E4, N, and Ghetsis, though. It only notable achievement was critting Shauntal's Cofagrigus with Shadow Ball for the kill.

I feel that Timburr should be High-tier, though-it's most certainly strong, it can take hits well, and it can dish it back out to a degree I've found Sigilyph unable to match.

Ferroseed should get mid-high if we ever get a mid-high tier-it took *some* babying and Lucky Egg grinding against the Ice gym, not to mention it needs to set up Curse a lot of the time...but not only can it entirely wall Zekrom, but he can take a wide variety of hits and let your own Pokemon recover. Fire-types are few when you get Ferrothorn; the Opelucid gym apparently has never heard of the concept of Fire-type moves. Only Crimgan's Revenge threatens it there. Ferrothorn was easily my MVP versus N and Ghetsis-Bouffalant is roflwalled, as is Cofagrigus. Power Whip is an excellent STAB-and Rough Helmet+Iron Barbs makes so many Pokemon sadface.

If anything I would put Ferroseed in high-it was an epic tank upon evolution. Also, who cares jack about the inability to run from wild encounters-the game offers plenty of money to buy Super Repels with.

Ok, good, I just thought of this and I needed to get this piece out. I don't think Eviolite is a factor in discussing the tiering of a Pokemon. Simply put, if you have ever discussed in any other tier list discussion(like Fire Emblem), stat boosters are not factored into the awesomeness of a unit/Pokemon, simply because stat boosters are quite literally free-for-all. Example, the DB Speedwing, I can just keep it to the DB and feed it to someone like Aran, or I can have Ilyana transfer it to the GMs for Ike/Haar to eat it. It's not even working at all. :/ I noticed people used Eviolite to argue Sandile up the tier list. IMO this should not be, when you get the Eviolite EVERY SINGLE THING that you have should be able to use it, outside of Simisage/Simisear/Simipour/Throh/Sawk/Sigilyph/Maractus/Audino/Emolga/Victini. Why must I give Eviolite to Sandile, when I can give it to Servine, Pignite or even Whirlipede. Seriously, I don't think we should use Eviolite in tiering discussions.

Hmm. How about pointing out that they should be able to use the Eviolite far more efficiently than some other mons? (Gurdurr is quite bulky with it, able to take on even super-effective physical attacks, and easily has the strength to hit things before evolving.)

 

[breh]

I feel, if anything, the Evolution Stone is applicable on mons that evolve late.

case in point, vanillish

 

[Colonel M]

Ok, good, I just thought of this and I needed to get this piece out. I don't think Eviolite is a factor in discussing the tiering of a Pokemon. Simply put, if you have ever discussed in any other tier list discussion(like Fire Emblem), stat boosters are not factored into the awesomeness of a unit/Pokemon, simply because stat boosters are quite literally free-for-all. Example, the DB Speedwing, I can just keep it to the DB and feed it to someone like Aran, or I can have Ilyana transfer it to the GMs for Ike/Haar to eat it. It's not even working at all. :/ I noticed people used Eviolite to argue Sandile up the tier list. IMO this should not be, when you get the Eviolite EVERY SINGLE THING that you have should be able to use it, outside of Simisage/Simisear/Simipour/Throh/Sawk/Sigilyph/Maractus/Audino/Emolga/Victini. Why must I give Eviolite to Sandile, when I can give it to Servine, Pignite or even Whirlipede. Seriously, I don't think we should use Eviolite in tiering discussions.

Eviolite is not something that is even locked in like a stat booster is in particular with Fire Emblem. It's like if every unit had 1 Mov and were crowded next to each other, could pass it around, etc. Most of the time in non-important fights the lead can carry Eviolite without impending anyone and Archeon doesn't want to nerf Acrobatics.

Also I'm putting this in Hide tags primarily because it is off-topic but it does reply to your post in particular:

Hide

Tier Lists definitely assume optimal stat booster distribution over anything else. For example, why give the Speedwing to Aran if it takes him from not doubling to... potentially not doubling? Aran is pretty freaking slow. Meanwhile, Haar and Titania definitely make immediate use of the item. Also the Hammer tidbit was right from the other poster's post.

ALSO FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE STOP POSTING YOUR GOD DAMNED TEAMS! WE. DON'T. CARE.

Either argue Pokemon up and / or down the tier list. Don't post the freaking teams.

I'll open everything up to moving up and down individually. So we can sort outside of alphabetical order.

Also, i support moving Leavanny to top tier. It's just awesome. When you catch it, it already gots two really good stab moves: Bug bite, and razor leaf, and once it gets to lvl 36, it gets Leaf Blade, then at lvl 39 X-Scissor, two awesome stab moves. I evolved mine from Swadloon at lvl 36.

Hm, more discussion here. Maybe, but the Happiness Evolution is a drag.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

The point is that Eviolite should not be used to argue Sandile up the ladder because when you get the Eviolite, nearly everybody and their mom can use Eviolite, only the following mons(which you can get at that point realistically, without mass grinding) can't:

Simisage
Simisear
Simipour
Lilligant
Whimsicott
Audino
Throh
Sawk
Sigilyph
Maractus
Musharna
Liepard
Victini
*Lilligant and Whimsicott are from shaking spots in Pinwheel*

Yeah, that's it. Almost everyone else and their mom can use Eviolite, only these bunch are excluded, and half of them are crap: monkeys and Munna are not meant to evolve early if you are using them, Lilligant and Whimsicott are rare, only Throh/Sawk/Sigilyph/Maractus are good, Victini is event mon and stomps everything anyway, and lolAudino. Essentially, the important players out of the Eviolite comp here are Throh, Sawk, Maractus and Sigilyph. When only 4 mons out of like 20 you can have at that point are not allowed for Eviolite, you have some serious competition. Sandile isn't the best holder for Eviolite either, Scraggy and Servine are even bulkier with Eviolite, and if Eviolite can be used as an argument, I can similarly use it to argue Scraggy or Servine, or even Herdier up the tierlist.

Eviolite out of discussions please. When you have an item that everybody and their mom can hold at that point in the game, Sandile doesn't have stuff good for him TBH.

 

[IcyMan28]

On Leavanny:

I currently have one in my team and was lucky enough to get a Jolly one - it is great. The happiness evolution really isn't that difficult to achieve so long as you use alot of items on it - mine evolved at level 22 if that tells you anything. Also, Swadloon has pretty good defenses and resistances, and doesn't miss out on any notable moves by not evolving for a while, unless you count Lv. 29 Slash.

I don't think its Top tier (maybe Upper Mid?), but it does well against the many dark- and ground-types ingame, and has good STABs for the E4. It comes pretty early, too. The things that hold it back are faring poorly against the remaining gyms (Electric has flying- and fire-type moves, Skyla has flying, Brycen has Ice) and the happiness evo.

 

[Shotoetoe]

Well then I want to plead for Pidove in mid tier again. It's easily as useful as ducklett by the time they are acquired.

Arguments:
Very early capture.
Decent ingame ability in Super Luck
Air cutter @lv15, with super luck, makes critical hits cover for low sp.att.
focus lens ups crit rate even more.
Can be taught Return before able to catch ducklett.
Can be taught Fly shortly after.
Learns work up to boost it's low sp.att and it's attack.
Gets a great 105 base attack when fully evolved.

Yes, archeops and sigilyph are better, but pidove should be mid tier material.

 

[Rackham]

I'd like to second moving Leavanny to top-tier.

Although I had a -speed nature, it still tore stuff up. For me, the happiness evolution wasn't a problem at all and he evolved at level 24, with no item usage as far as I can recall. To sum up, the pros:
-Good strong STABs from an early level (Bug-bite and Razor leaf, and then X-scissor TM found fairly early as well, and finally, Leaf blade )
-Both of its STABs wreck the sandile that are so common with team plasma, as well as the multitude of other grass, water, rock, dark and psychic mons running round.
-Furthermore, its STABs are super-effective against 2 of the elite 4, he is also very useful against N and Ghetsis
-Relatively fast throughout the game
-Some nice resists (esp.)
-Great boosting move in Swords Dance (but you'll probably only have this for the E4)

Cons
-4x weak to fire (which isn't very common) and flying (which is fairly common)
-Happiness evolution appears to hinder some

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Heh, I used Leavanny on my first PT of White. It's quite good, I evolved it at 28, so I got Slash. If you get Slash you have better offences than if you have Tackle, period. Bug and Grass just happens to be the 2 types that rape Plasma Grunts. :/

 

[Vladimir]

Snivy is overall better than Sewaddle, so if the latter is moved to high, the former should as well.

 

[The Cicada]

Also, i support moving Leavanny to top tier. It's just awesome. When you catch it, it already gots two really good stab moves: Bug bite, and razor leaf, and once it gets to lvl 36, it gets Leaf Blade, then at lvl 39 X-Scissor, two awesome stab moves. I evolved mine from Swadloon at lvl 32.

Edited post, i evolved my Swadloon at lvl 32, not 36.

Snivy is overall better than Sewaddle, so if the latter is moved to high, the former should as well.

How is Sinvy better than Sweaddle? I used Snivy on my first run, and im sorry to say that it sucks. If you want a physical attacking grass type, pick Sewwadle.

 

[Rackham]

I would disagree there. Snivy comes slightly earlier, is faster and bulkier... but that's it. Sewaddle gets a better movepool, whereas Snivy can basically only use grass moves, in addition to this, Sewaddle gets to its final evolution quicker and its extra bug typing is great for in-game purposes.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Snivy's only other form of physical attack is...

Dragon Tail. Aerial Ace. Rock Smash. What.

well, that's crap, seriously. Leavanny doesn't suffer from the crap movepool, its the only grass type in Unova that doesn't, seriously.

Snivy's best hope is to run a bulky leech seed set with Coil/Seed/Tail/Blade. :/ Sewaddle has a way better movepool, getting X-Scissor STAB, and Shadow Claw too.

 

[TheSuperCacturne]

Well, after having another look at the list, I have a few qualms which I feel should be addressed:
Elgyem
Terrakion
Thundurus
Maractus
Pidove

Elgyem - Why is this thing in Mid? It doesn't come until before the 6th gym, is slow as fuck, evolves late, has a shitty level up movepool, can't do donkey dick to anything except maybe Marshall, and is thoroughly outclassed by earlier Psychic types (Sigilyph, Gothita, Solosis and even Woobat are better choices). Before anybody rambles on about how it has good TM choices, Thunderbolt requires Surf and a detour, Shadow Ball can't be gotten until after Gym #7 and Energy Ball is postgame. Should be in Low.

Terrakion - Although I can definately see where people are coming from putting it in Mid, it comes too late to really be considered part of your team (I mean, midway into Victory Road, right before the League? REALLY?!) AND you need to catch Cobalion to access it in the first place. It also is difficult to catch and probably requires a bit of training before catching up in levels with you.

Thundurus - I've already talked about this guy, so I'll make this quick. Roamer, comes before/after the 8th gym at the earliest, has poor initial moves, is a roamer. Why is this in Mid and Tornadus in Low again? (Both should be in Low)

Maractus - I honestly feel people are underestimating this dude. He may not be stellar, but I feel he's good enough to be propelled up a tier. He comes just before Gym #4 and gets brilliant STABs resonably early (Needle Arm at level 22 and Giga Drain at level 26) to come off its excellent (at that point) Attack and Special Attack stats. It's also easy to train considering the vast amount of Sandile around the Desert and it doesn't falter too much thanks to getting a boosting move (albeit an unreliable one) in Acupressure. Its biggest problem is its poor movepool, but it's far from being as bad as say, Purrloin or Shelmet.

Pidove - Many people have argued this guy for Mid and I'm another in the long line. As long as you get a Super Luck one, you can get the brilliant Scopecrit combo early on to compensate for your poor Special Attack, and by the time you obtain Return and teach it Work Up, you'll be set pretty much for the whole of the game. It learning Fly is the icing on the cake as well, ensuring it doesn't lose its place later on. Shamefully it can't really make it past Steel and Rock types, but you have a team for coping against that.

I'm hoping you guys will consider the points I made here, since I really feel that they're valid ones.

Also, I fully support Sewaddle moving up, little omnombug is just too awesome...