In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Baztard]

I really don't think the Joltik/Petilil argument can ever be solved. There's too much clash of opinions as not everyone's play through is the same.

I think the tiers need seperatring even more (Like the HG/SS tier list). We definately need an Uber tier (Archen/Scraggy/Darumaka etc) and a Top were Petilil may deserve.

 

[Sajak]

Cottonee only appears in Black version.

There's an in-game trade for it in White.

 

[sax king]

We definitely need more tiers. Petlil and Joltik will always be hovering between mid and high.
I think stuff like High-mid and mid-high is a little confusing.
I think things should be separated by A, B, C, D, and F (like schools) or on a five star rating system.

 

[RevolverKnight]

What do you people think of Escavalier?

 

[Phadunk]

What do you people think of Escavalier?

"boxed pokemon" comes to mind.

 

[RevolverKnight]

"boxed pokemon" comes to mind.

What do you mean?

 

[tomtom5858]

As in, it should remain boxed.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

In-gmae, Escavalier is garbage. no megahorn without breeding, slow as fuck, requires a trade, terrible movepool.

 

[RevolverKnight]

As in, it should remain boxed.

oh ok thx

 

[TheSubwayMaster]

I agree with more tiers. 5 star rating would be nice, but if not Upper Mid and Lower mid.

If that happens: Joltik and Petilil both for Upper Mid, Munna, Ducklett, Pidove for Lower Mid.

 

[The Cicada]

Dwebble for High. Destroys 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th gym, 3 of E4, and Ghetsis. That sounds like high to me. Discuss!

 

[MewMaster]

Foongus is misspelled in the OP. You used three O's whereas there are only two.

 

[spweasel]

Results from Gym #6:

I had to go quite a bit out of my way to have Joltik not evolved before hitting the Gym. I ran the entire gym 3 times. Joltik was 35 going in, while Lilligant was 36.

#1: Joltik solo - Joltik was the only Pokemon used, and every evolution attempt was canceled. This wasn't very difficult, surprisingly. Very little outsped Joltik, while pretty much everything was a 2HKO. The biggest worry is Critical Hits. I actually lost Joltik to Swanna, but that's because I made the mistake of healing instead of attacking on the turn she used Aqua Ring, putting me permanently on the defensive (hoping she'd use a non-damaging move). I got sick of waiting and just attacked once... and died. Still, if I hadn't misplayed, this would have been a fairly easy fight.

#2: Lilligant solo. This was incredibly easy. Magical Leaf was an easy 1-2 hit kill on everything (1-shot on Duckletts, 2 on everything else), while everything was just shy of 2HKOing Lilligant. Giga Drain provided a very comfortable cushion as well, making it incredibly easy. Sleep Powder - Quiver Dance - Sweep was way more than Skyla could handle.

#3: Mixed. I forgot to save befoe Skyla since I had wanted to try the still-level 35 Joltik against her after I finished with Lilligant. This run was full of Swoobat Hax. Between the two Swoobats, all of the following happened:

1) Missed 3 Sleep Powders in a row
2) Flinched from Heart Stamp 3 times in a row
3) Lost 4 consecutive turns to Attract
4) Lost Joltik on the first turn against Skyla due to an Acrobatics crit from Swoobat

>_>

The third attempt against Skyla, I decided to minimize the opportunity for Hax by simply using the X-Speed I'd been sitting on. After using that, level 35 Joltik swept without any issue. I made the mistake of bringing Electro Ball instead of Electroweb, which definitely would have made this fight much easier (and negated the need for that X-Speed).

I strongly support Lilligant and Joltik staying High, even if/when the tiers are split. They both are incredible powerhouses after evolving (Lilligant is great even when things resist it, virtually nothing resists Galvantula), and aren't nearly as hard to evolve as they might initially look.

Dwebble is Lower Mid or just Mid (it most emphatically does not "destroy" everything The Cicada says it does, at least not without lucky IVs and significant overleveling), Munna is low (why are we still arguing this thing?), and Maractus can be Lower Mid (just throwing that out before anyone tries to get it into Mid or higher, though Low isn't inappropriate for it, either).

 

[Ray Jay]

Petillil is not hard to train at all. You should basically be taking on all Basculin with it; there's plenty of them before the 4th gym and they're experience pots, and it also does very well I found in the battling building place near the 3rd gym. Mine learned Quiver Dance before the 4th gym, which allowed me to cool off on training it for a while.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

Raising Petilil does sometimes force you to engage trainers that might otherwise be optional. For example, Parosol Ladies and Fishermen are basically free exp for Petilil, but many of those can be avoided.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Raising Petilil does sometimes force you to engage trainers that might otherwise be optional. For example, Parosol Ladies and Fishermen are basically free exp for Petilil, but many of those can be avoided.

At least it ensures that you won't murder yourself at a gym, but honestly, with Petilil, it's either a own or get owned business. At least it is better than pre-Seed Bomb Pansage, which is honestly a pain in the ass.

@Lou: doesn't beat me soloing Cynthia with a LV 51 Haxorus :P

 

[Raikaria]

Agreeing with Breludicolo. Golurk is awesome. Why is it so low? It's bulky, powerful, and it has a great movepool. It's great for those who need the convenience of fly but don't want crappy pokemon like Unfezant or Swanna on the team. I found it easy to level up, seeing as pretty much everything on team plasma is weak to either ground or fighting, and with a lucky egg evolving into golurk wasn't difficult at all. Sure it's slow, but it has bulk and power to make up for it's speed. I'm not saying it's high tier because it comes so late, but I don't think low tier is correct.

I've used Golurk, Unfezant, and Swanna.

Swanna is one of the few mixed sweepers in the game. Water/Flying gives excellent coverage as it is. FeatherDance and Roost make Swanna a wall, even as Ducklett [Especially with Evolite]

Swanna is not dreadful. It's only fault is it dies to Electric. You know Renbu packs Stone Edge and Rock Slide? No issue, with Featherdance and Roost.

Unfezant, I truthfully feel needs to be bumped up a teir. Super Luck Pidove/Tranquil can more than get by on High-Crit Air Cutter until you get to Raimon, where you pick up Return. From that point, you just OHKO everything until you get to Gym 7/8 onwards. Seriously, my Unfezant never had to use Work Up after getting Return, it just demolished everything in the first place.

Golurk comes late, although is easy to level due to being utterly immune to Audino's moveset. Golurk is slow, and not that bulky. Unlike Unfezant and Swanna, he can't self-heal. To top it off, he could have Klutz. Which is USELESS. Golurk also fails against half the E4, won't sweep Catlin due to it's speed and Siligphs Ice Beam, while also struggleing to do anything against N and Gehetis too.

I'd rather use Swanna or Unfezant for Fly, personally. At least they get some use out of it, Swanna for it's stongest physical STAB, and same for Unferzant for Flying STAB.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Agreeing with the above Unfezant remark, Not only does Return destroy everything, but it has very good defense for a bird, being about equal to its attack as a Pidove. It can OHKO most things and what ict cant it 2HKOs without getting hit too hard.

 

[Vladimir]

Just beat Cynthia with a lvl 40 Deino with Eviolite. If you set up on Spiritomb she's a joke.

I feel like we shouldn't make *too* many tiers. Just saw the HGSS tier list and wow, this thing wouldn't help at all someone starting the game... Approximately 10 different tiers each one with very few pokes in it made a very confusing and inaccurate list. We should imo stick to only one additional tier (lower mid), and enlarge high if necessary.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

And hence, you are extremely lucky to have your Dragon Pulses hit.

Also HGSS is horribly diff from BW. There are way more Pokemon, Eevee, Pokewalker mons that function differently from their normal counterparts(e.g. Pokewalker Kangaskhan, available early and makes earlygame cake, but to catch one pre-E4 you need the Safari Zone, which is plain annoying, and Kangaskhan's 45 catch rate doesn't help either), etc.

These mons that function differently from their normal counterparts(like Kanga) can be drawn in the same way to Sawk, Throh, Whimsicott, Lilligant and Basculin. Only 6 more 'mons' are added to the tier list FYI, so it doesn't clog up the tier list at all.

Just some theorymonning here, but my predicted positions for these new entries, if accepted:

White Sawk: Mid. High Atk/Spd makes it worthwhile, but the time taken is plain bs. The time for a Sturdy one is even more bs.

Black Throh: Low Mid. Better bulk, but not really so worthy ingame. Can't hit very hard.

IGT Whimsicott: Low. It's Whimsicott. Sucks a lot. Only good use is Stun Spore, the Modest 31 doesn't help IMO.

IGT Lilligant: High. Now if it was Own Tempo, I would say insta-top lol.

Black IGT Basculin: Upp Mid. Nothing special, tbh, other than Adamant 31.

White IGT Basculin: Upp Mid. Rock Head can actually work with Double Edge, lol.

IMO IGT Whimsicott/Lilligant are not gonna be accepted, but Throh, Sawk and Basculin should go in. Rename the Basculin as 'wild Basculin' and kick to Low.

 

[The Cicada]

Results from Gym #6:

I had to go quite a bit out of my way to have Joltik not evolved before hitting the Gym. I ran the entire gym 3 times. Joltik was 35 going in, while Lilligant was 36.

#1: Joltik solo - Joltik was the only Pokemon used, and every evolution attempt was canceled. This wasn't very difficult, surprisingly. Very little outsped Joltik, while pretty much everything was a 2HKO. The biggest worry is Critical Hits. I actually lost Joltik to Swanna, but that's because I made the mistake of healing instead of attacking on the turn she used Aqua Ring, putting me permanently on the defensive (hoping she'd use a non-damaging move). I got sick of waiting and just attacked once... and died. Still, if I hadn't misplayed, this would have been a fairly easy fight.

#2: Lilligant solo. This was incredibly easy. Magical Leaf was an easy 1-2 hit kill on everything (1-shot on Duckletts, 2 on everything else), while everything was just shy of 2HKOing Lilligant. Giga Drain provided a very comfortable cushion as well, making it incredibly easy. Sleep Powder - Quiver Dance - Sweep was way more than Skyla could handle.

#3: Mixed. I forgot to save befoe Skyla since I had wanted to try the still-level 35 Joltik against her after I finished with Lilligant. This run was full of Swoobat Hax. Between the two Swoobats, all of the following happened:

1) Missed 3 Sleep Powders in a row
2) Flinched from Heart Stamp 3 times in a row
3) Lost 4 consecutive turns to Attract
4) Lost Joltik on the first turn against Skyla due to an Acrobatics crit from Swoobat

>_>

The third attempt against Skyla, I decided to minimize the opportunity for Hax by simply using the X-Speed I'd been sitting on. After using that, level 35 Joltik swept without any issue. I made the mistake of bringing Electro Ball instead of Electroweb, which definitely would have made this fight much easier (and negated the need for that X-Speed).

I strongly support Lilligant and Joltik staying High, even if/when the tiers are split. They both are incredible powerhouses after evolving (Lilligant is great even when things resist it, virtually nothing resists Galvantula), and aren't nearly as hard to evolve as they might initially look.

Dwebble is Lower Mid or just Mid (it most emphatically does not "destroy" everything The Cicada says it does, at least not without lucky IVs and significant overleveling), Munna is low (why are we still arguing this thing?), and Maractus can be Lower Mid (just throwing that out before anyone tries to get it into Mid or higher, though Low isn't inappropriate for it, either).

Hav you even tried Dwebble? I doubt it. If you did, you would know how awesome it is.

 

[spweasel]

Hav you even tried Dwebble? I doubt it. If you did, you would know how awesome it is.

So anyways, I started a Black run last night to test Sawk (I'm also going to test Dwebble and possibly Dragon Dance Scraggy).

Dwebble has been pretty meh so far (he's at level 32, though, so he's going to improve a lot very soon). He's defensively strong enough (especially with the Evolite) that he has no problem taking hits, but his offenses are pretty terrible. Rock Slide is good, but the accuracy makes it undesirable for a primary STAB. Smack Down is decent against Fliers, but as a neutral STAB it's not very good. Bug Bite is fine except for still being a little weak on neutral targets due to Dwebble's lack of Attack (the fact that I got one with a terrible nature and Attack IV didn't help).

I finished my Black run a while back.
[...]
Dwebble should stay Mid at best. He's loads of fun, but he's not exactly amazing. Too many foes survived after a single Shell Smash that the reward ultimately wasn't worth the risk. He's also a little out of the way, especially if you don't spend much extra time in the desert.

So yeah, I not only tried him, I tried him in an extremely favorable environment since only running 3 Pokemon that game gave him higher levels than he normally would have had.

 

[Stellar]

The in-game trade Lilligant does have Own Tempo, however it was proven a while ago that Own Tempo does not prevent Petal Dance confusion.

 

[Too Funk to Druck]

The in-game trade Lilligant does have Own Tempo, however it was proven a while ago that Own Tempo does not prevent Petal Dance confusion.

Are you sure? I've never had confusion after using Own Tempo Petal Dance.

 

[The Cicada]

So yeah, I not only tried him, I tried him in an extremely favorable environment since only running 3 Pokemon that game gave him higher levels than he normally would have had.

Sounds like you just had bad luck with it.

Like i said before, Dwebble owns the 4th, 6th, 7th, and 8th gym. It destroys 3/4 of the E4 (possibly one of the best pokes for the end game boss battles). And it destroys Ghetsis too.

Vs the 4th gym: Smack Down/Rock Tomb puts a quick stop to Emolga's, and Dig makes short work of Zebstrika.

Vs the 6th gym: It's a rock type vs flying type. Whatdya expect other than quick ownage?

Vs the 7th gym: Just use Shell Smash and kill everything With X-Scissor. You might need Rock Slide for Beartic tho, idk.

Vs the 8th gym: Shell Smash against Fraxure, it'll use Dragon Dance. Then, kill it with Rock Slide. When Druddigon comes out, use Shell Smash or Rock Slide. Rock Slide Haxorus, then it's gg.

Vs: Grimsley: Stay away from Scrafty, then once Scrafty is gone, set up Shell Smash, and X-Scissor everything else.

Vs Caitlin: Shell Smash, survive Psychic due to Sturdy, then kill everything with X-Scissor, be sure to use X-Scissor on Sigilyph and not Rock Slide, cuz Rock Slide might miss, and X-Scissor kills it anyway.

Vs Shauntal: Shell Smash, Rawst Berry off the Burn, Shadow Claw, Confarigus is gone, and you still got full HP, and Shell Smash. Kill all else with Shadow Claw, and Rock Slide the candle thing.

Vs Ghetsis: Substitute on Confarigus, Shell Smash 3 times, win.




Sounds like High tier to me.