In-Game Tier List Discussion

[spweasel]

The in-game trade Lilligant does have Own Tempo, however it was proven a while ago that Own Tempo does not prevent Petal Dance confusion.

It definitely has Chlorophyll, and you'll need to link to a source for Own Tempo not preventing self-inflicted confusion, because I've heard the opposite several times.

Only 6 more 'mons' are added to the tier list FYI, so it doesn't clog up the tier list at all.

I'm still failing to see any real benefit to splitting them, aside from maybe Sawk/Throh. The In-game Trade Pokemon don't have nearly enough difference from their normal versions to justify making the distinction. If we really wanted, we could split the list based on Ability or nature, too, but it makes far more sense to just factor all those variables into the calculation from the start.

White Sawk: Mid. High Atk/Spd makes it worthwhile, but the time taken is plain bs. The time for a Sturdy one is even more bs.

Black Throh: Low Mid. Better bulk, but not really so worthy ingame. Can't hit very hard.

Both should be Low for the same reason that the Kamis should be low - they are too much of a pain to get a usable one. It's telling that it's arguably easier to catch the roamers, since you can just lob your Master Ball at them (and the Master Ball isn't really needed for anything else in-game, so you might as well).

IGT Whimsicott: Low. It's Whimsicott. Sucks a lot. Only good use is Stun Spore, the Modest 31 doesn't help IMO.

While he's not amazing, he does have enough utility to keep him out of Low, in my opinion. Priority Stun Spore, Charm, Tailwind, and so forth gives him some use even if he ends up getting himself killed almost immediately. And with all the boosts, his SpA is at least borderline passable.

Cottonee should be Lower Mid in all variations, since he's lacking offensively, but he is one of the best utility options in-game (which you shouldn't want/need, but it's still an option).

IGT Lilligant: High. Now if it was Own Tempo, I would say insta-top lol.

Honestly, considering how late Lilligant learns Petal Dance, I'd actually say that Chlorophyll is arguably the better ability. While I wouldn't try it since it forces you to choose between Giga Drain and Sleep Powder, Sunny Day + Growth + Solar Beam sets up faster than Quiver Dance will until Petal Dance comes around.

@Cicada: I'm not even going to bother responding to you beyond
A) Your only 100% accurate Rock attack sucks, and if you get hit post-Shell Smash you're in trouble, especially if you get hit by a Special Attack.
B) How are you outspeeding Sigilyph, even after a Shell Smash? Indeed, any other 90+ Speed Pokemon might give you trouble depending on your IVs.

 

[Rezileen]

It definitely has Chlorophyll, and you'll need to link to a source for Own Tempo not preventing self-inflicted confusion, because I've heard the opposite several times.

You could just test it out yourself. I can vouch for Own Tempo preventing self-inflicted confusion after using Liligant. Also, I've never heard of someone saying Own Tempo doesn't prevent it. You can also just do a google search and basically every single result will say it does prevent it.

 

[The Cicada]

It definitely has Chlorophyll, and you'll need to link to a source for Own Tempo not preventing self-inflicted confusion, because I've heard the opposite several times.



I'm still failing to see any real benefit to splitting them, aside from maybe Sawk/Throh. The In-game Trade Pokemon don't have nearly enough difference from their normal versions to justify making the distinction. If we really wanted, we could split the list based on Ability or nature, too, but it makes far more sense to just factor all those variables into the calculation from the start.

Both should be Low for the same reason that the Kamis should be low - they are too much of a pain to get a usable one. It's telling that it's arguably easier to catch the roamers, since you can just lob your Master Ball at them (and the Master Ball isn't really needed for anything else in-game, so you might as well).

While he's not amazing, he does have enough utility to keep him out of Low, in my opinion. Priority Stun Spore, Charm, Tailwind, and so forth gives him some use even if he ends up getting himself killed almost immediately. And with all the boosts, his SpA is at least borderline passable.

Cottonee should be Lower Mid in all variations, since he's lacking offensively, but he is one of the best utility options in-game (which you shouldn't want/need, but it's still an option).

Honestly, considering how late Lilligant learns Petal Dance, I'd actually say that Chlorophyll is arguably the better ability. While I wouldn't try it since it forces you to choose between Giga Drain and Sleep Powder, Sunny Day + Growth + Solar Beam sets up faster than Quiver Dance will until Petal Dance comes around.

@Cicada: I'm not even going to bother responding to you beyond
A) Your only 100% accurate Rock attack sucks, and if you get hit post-Shell Smash you're in trouble, especially if you get hit by a Special Attack.
B) How are you outspeeding Sigilyph, even after a Shell Smash? Indeed, any other 90+ Speed Pokemon might give you trouble depending on your IVs.

Rock Slide not being 100% accurate is not much of a problem. If you miss with it against Skyla, so what? your still alive. Swoobat'll just use Amnesia (yes, it will use Amnesia against a damn Curstle), Swanna will use Aqua Ring, and Unfeazant, well, idk bout that one. But you will more than likely survive its atk.

Against Brycen, you dont really even need Rock Slide. After Shelll Smash, a neatral X-Scissor should kill everything.

Against Iris/Drayden, if you miss with Rock Slide against Fraxure, thats your problem. If you miss on Druddigon, you got sturdy for another chance to hit. And Haxorus, if you miss on that one, it'll euther use Dragon Dance, or Dragon Tail. If it uses Dragon Dance, it's toast. I highly doubt you'll even miss that freaking much.


My case is closed hear. Dwebble is High without a question in my mind.

It does just as good, possibly even better against the E4 than Scrafty.

 

[R_N]

Pokemon really shouldn't be knocked against for using a 90% accurate move
It's still really good accuracy and it's not like most of the Pokemon that would be using them couldn't take a hit if it did miss.

 

[The Cicada]

@R_N: Exactly! If we were judging pokemon by accuracy, Scrafty would not be high, since it hits itself so much with HJK.........

 

[Diana]

Seeing the IV's argument does make me wonder something. Are the AI's IV's and EV's all 0 like I remember them being in 4th gen for the most part? I just remember everything with Hidden Power had base 30 Fighting which is 0/0/0/0/0/0 but I haven't been able to check this time around.

If so even the worst Crustle outspeeds base 82's with a Shell Smash, and chances are you'll have at least a neutral one, and with 0 IV's and a neutral nature at worst you're outspeeding 92's after that. Of course if you're higher than neutral 0 you're doing better (Chances are you'll outspeed Sigilyph, for example)

 

[Vladimir]

And hence, you are extremely lucky to have your Dragon Pulses hit.

Yet more proof of your ignorance regarding BW. Special atacks aren't affected by Hustle >_>

Dwebble isn't held back by a 90% accurate move - he's held back by being slow with below average attack until it evolves. Shell Smash and good stats only come by the time you have Crustle, and this is way too late in the game.

Also claiming that Dwebble solos the 4th gym is a joke - even Drilbur/ Sandile need an X-speed to do that. There's no pokemon able to solo that gym unless you're overlevelled.

That said, i honestly feel like The Cicada has overlevelled teams in his/her playthroughs, that being the reason why he/she has judged so many mid-tier residents high. Lvl 32 Leavanny by the 4th gym? I mean, come on. The average player won't have similar experiences.

 

[Squid Ninja]

Yet more proof of your ignorance regarding BW. Special atacks aren't affected by Hustle >_>

Dwebble isn't held back by a 90% accurate move - he's held back by being slow with below average attack until it evolves. Shell Smash and good stats only come by the time you have Crustle, and this is way too late in the game.

Also claiming that Dwebble solos the 4th gym is a joke - even Drilbur/ Sandile need an X-speed to do that. There's no pokemon able to solo that gym unless you're overlevelled.

That said, i honestly feel like The Cicada has overlevelled teams in his/her playthroughs, that being the reason why he/she has judged so many mid-tier residents high. Lvl 32 Leavanny by the 4th gym? I mean, come on. The average player won't have similar experiences.

How is evolving Dwebble right after the 5th Gym and getting Shell Smash as soon as you get to Mistralton "way late in the game"? Shell Smash and Sturdy is a great combination that should give Dwebble upper-mid tier at the least.

 

[Diana]

Okay, hoping this doesn't die on me before I post, but let's take an indepth look at Dwebble.

You get it at level 20-22 at the Desert Resort, which I don't find to be a big detour considering it's good experience just on the road there that helps later on. Stats as a Dwebble are 50/65/85/35/35/55, so you do need to keep it away from Special Attacks at times, which hurts, but it can hit okay, though not great.

At 22 you have Sand-Attack/Faint Attack/Smack Down/Rock Polish which can actually be nice. You might be able to solo Elesa thanks to Rock Polish and Smack Down, actually, if you're a few above 22 by then (which you should be).

It gets Bug Bite for a second STAB at 23, Stealth Rock (lol) at 24, and Rock Slide at 29, which is really nice. I'd take that over Smack Down. It evolves at 34, which is probably around Mistralton, maybe slightly before. You can teach it Shell Smash in Mistralton too, and X-Scissor comes around Brycen's gym at 38. Its best coverage move is only Dig but it works enough for annoying things like Klinklang late.

Crustle's stats are 70/95/125/65/75/45, and 45 after a Shell Smash can outspeed quite a bit. For things trainers use (which I think are 0 IV/EV's other than maybe N's dragon but even then I'm not sure), you can outspeed certain things with just a neutral nature if you get the right IV:

Leavanny, Krookodile: 0
Unfezant: 1
Darmanitan, Sawsbuck: 3
Sigilyph, Haxorus: 5
Basculin, Swanna, Hydreigon: 6
Volcarona: 8
Simisage, Simisear, Simipour: 9
Emolga: 11
Zoroark, Cryogonal, Mienshao: 13
Liepard: 14
Galvantula: 16
Durant: 17
Archeops: 18
Scolipede: 20
Serperior: 21
Swoobat: 22
Cinccino: 23
Zebstrika, Whimsicott: 24

Now I don't expect people to be going for a 24, but it's always outspeeding Krookodile after a Shell Smash and has a 3 in 4 chance of doing so with Volcarona. And since Speed stats are closer together when not at 100, I'm sure Crustle will outspeed more than shown here.

There is a lag bit right before it evolves and all the Boldore around don't help it, which might keep it from High. It also doesn't take hits that well after a Shell Smash, though I bet it could take a physical move if it had to. Overall I think it adds up to Mid-high, because of where it comes and it hits pretty hard but has trouble with a few things that pop up all over the place and can't take a special hit well.

 

[spweasel]

@R_N: Exactly! If we were judging pokemon by accuracy, Scrafty would not be high, since it hits itself so much with HJK.........

1) Crustle usually takes one hit on the turn it uses Shell Smash. If it takes an attack after that because of a miss (or not OHKOing the target), it will likely die. If Scrafty misses a HJK, his defenses let him usually survive the follow-up hit even though he's at 50% HP.
2) Scrafty only uses HJK when absolutely necessary, which is rare (since it only really comes into play for the first Pokemon Scrafty kills, and only if Brick Break and Crunch can't kill it fast enough). Indeed, I didn't even take HJK into the Elite 4 at all.

Crustle needs to rely on that 90% accurate Rock Slide to kill things, because it absolutely cannot fail to get OHKOs if it wants to survive.

As for IVs, I believe the Pokemon League has them, but I have not performed conclusive testing. Several members certainly seem faster than they ought to be, though.

 

[Diana]

I think that's probably pretty important to test, sadly I've beaten both of my games already so I can't really test on the first Elite Four round anymore but I'll see if I can trade things from Black and maybe I'll restart to test things.

Edit: Yeah I'm going to do that after trading the Pokemon that I want to keep, anyone want me to test anything while I'm at it for a playthrough?

 

[The Cicada]

@Vladimir: i do NOT overlevel my Pokemon. Dwebble was level 34 at Mistralton City, lvl 38 at Iccirus, and lvl 43 at Opleucid city. And, against the E4, it went there at lvl 48.


@Spweasel:What the hell is wrong with you? Dwebble does get X-Scissor, which has higher base power AND accuracy than Rock Slide. Why the hell would you be using Rock Slide as your main attack instead of X-Scissor?
@Spweasel:

 

[spweasel]

@Spweasel:What the hell is wrong with you? Dwebble does get X-Scissor, which has higher base power AND accuracy than Rock Slide. Why the hell would you be using Rock Slide as your main attack instead of X-Scissor?

You do realize that getting hostile doesn't help your argument, right?

I did use X-Scissor as primary STAB, but since Rock has much better coverage than Bug, you often don't have a choice but to use Rock Slide. Unless you want to claim that a resisted +2 X-Scissor can OHKO everything.

 

[The Cicada]

I dunno what hostile means.

I don't think you use Dwebble right. You very rarley use it in random trainer battles, cuz it's not needed there. Just use it for all boss battles, except Clay, and N. It'll have no problem destroying every boss battle, ezcept those 2, and it wont have a problem staying caugh up in level with your team either.

 

[Serious_Business]

Dwebble for me could not solo Elesa. It did amazing, but couldn't solo. With Rock Polish, I could outspeed the Emongas but not the Zebstrika, (With Eviolite) Emonga failed to 2HKO with Volt Switch, while Smack Down was a solid 2HKO. Then Zebstrika comes out, outspeeds and does a bit too much with Volt Switch. Got one Dig in, then finished off with Leavanny. So not quite a solo, but damn close, and I may have had a -Speed nature.

It's great against the gyms/E4, requires no babying to be viable, and does well enough against random trainers even without setting up. Upper-Mid at the very least, in my experience.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Yet more proof of your ignorance regarding BW. Special atacks aren't affected by Hustle >_>

Heh, fine, it was a mistake on my part, but you claim it to be an ignorance. BTW Hustle has been working like that since RSE.

Besides, I have problems believing that you could get past Milotic in the first place. Aside from Blizzard misshax. My +6 Haxorus barely OHKO'd Milotic with Dual Chop(mind you, when I say OHKO, each hit of Dual Chop brought Milotic to 40%). And mind you again, my Haxorus is 11 levels higher than your Deino, has 147 Attack, and is holding a Dragon Fang.

 

[TheSuperCacturne]

After all this, I honestly think we should stop discussing Joltik and Petilil. The discussion isn't going anywhere since we have tons of people arguing for High and tons arguing for Mid, and they just keep on coming up time and time again and not letting us devote time to Pokes which actually DESERVE to have discussion about. I mean, we don't want to mistier things simply because we argued like idiots so much over Joltik and Petilil right?

Anyways, takling the OPs idea of making an Upper-Mid and Lower-Mid separation, I feel I could make a sort of preliminary list with what stuff should be in what tier. Here is my opinion of what they should be, with each Pokemon factoring in their best possible performances (IE, Sawk is best in Black, so counting that appearance)

High: Excellent Pokemon which stay consistently useful throughout the game.
Oshawott
Panpour
Drilbur
Timburr
Throh
Sawk
Darumaka
Scraggy
Sigilyph
Archen
Cobalion

Upper Mid: Pokemon which although being good, falter in some way compared to those in High (IE, movepool problems, late appearance, becomes less effective later on, has a bad start etc.)
Victini (Exclusive)
Tepig
Lillipup
Blitzle
Roggenrola
Tympole
Sewaddle
Venipede
Petilil
Sandile
Dwebble
Minccino
Vanillite
Deerling
Joltik
Axew

Lower Mid: Pokemon which although not normally useful, have a few niches which allow them to stand out.
Snivy
Patrat
Pansage
Pansear
Pidove
Cottonee
Basculin
Maractus
Tirtouga
Zorua (Exclusive)
Gothita
Solosis
Ducklett
Emolga
Klink
Ferroseed
Litwick
Mienfoo
Druddigon
Golett
Durant
Virizion

Low: Ineffective choices for ingame, lack in power, movepool, early appearance, typing, or all of these. In some cases, their evolutions are effective though.
Munna
Woobat
Audino
Yamask
Trubbish
Karrablast
Frillish
Elgyem
Cubchoo
Cryogonal
Pawniard
Bouffalant
Terrakion
Tornadus
Thundurus

Epic Fail (Basement): Insults to humanity, do not ever use these terrible awful Pokemon. They WILL suck, we promise you.
Purrloin
Foongus
Alomomola
Tynamo
Shelmet
Stunfisk
Rufflet
Vullaby
Heatmor
Deino
Larvesta

Discuss! Italics are ones I myself am iffy on.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Archen should be at the very top, 112 Attack, gets a 110 BP STAB move in 3 levels, outspeeds a lot of crap, and what not. This guy redefines god itself.

Cobalion can stay in Upp. Mid. Going out of the way to nab him isn't really efficient to me.

Lillipup can stay where its ass is parked right now.

No comments on Sandile.

IMO Pansage for Upper Mid. It's a great grass type, but its STAB is physical, which is seriously annoying ingame(when you can't 2HKO Roggenrolas something is wrong). Pansear should be at the bottom. In fact, it's the only drawback to nabbing Oshawott, lol. It's basically another Purrloin when you try to train it, and Fire hits... nothing early for SE. You've to wait until Pinwheel when you can finally train it, but I'd prefer Timburr for that already. No.

Zorua stays. Illusion actually fools the AI, to the point that Caitlin will repeatedly attempt to Psychic 'Conkeldurr'.

Solosis, I dunno. It can run Dual Screens to assist the team though, but you need to be lucky to have a workable Hidden Power. :/

Frillish to low. It's very existence relies on a surfer. In that case, use the surfer instead, lol.

Golett is cool, so he stays. It's not that hard to get a Iron Fist Golett, since the second floor of DS Tower is filled with nothing but 'em.

Karrablast down to bottom, Terrakion up to Lower Mid. Karrablast has terrible stats, needs a trade to evolve, and it doesn't accomplish anything. Sucks a lot, imo. Terrakion on the other hand, can be actually useful in E4.

IMO Deino, Pansear, Purrloin and Larvesta deserve their own tier. Name them, 'The Trolls'. They suck so badly, they are only right below Flareon and Farfetch'd on GameFreak's hate list.(fine, its an exaggeration, but still.)

EDIT: wootz 1000th post on the forums

 

[sharkz]

Going off that new list, I think Panpour is at best Upper Mid. It's early game usefulness is really limited to the first gym, since after that it has nothing to hit SE for. It's too weak to take on Lenora(water gun lol), struggles with grass types in Pinwheel, and is only able to take out Dwebble against Burgh. Elesa is even worse. Clay and maybe Brycen are the only gyms where I can imagine it doing well, and it doesnt offer any quality support against the E4 either.

For now, this is all I can think of, so I might come back later, but feel free to discuss.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Panpour is only weak from Striaton until Castelia, when you get Scald, after which it just rapes everything. Doesn't KO? Let the 30% burn rate do the job for you. Burgh also isn't the only trainer in the gym with Dwebble, and Scald has a 30% chance of pseudo-bypassing Sturdy. The fact that almost all the wild mons and their moms on the next route are weak to Water, Panpour gets a lot of EXP there. At most Panpour only needs to go to LV 31, but you can skip it completely since Acrobatics is just pure damn power, before that Scald rapes faces. Nothing significant is owned by Panpour with Acro between Driftveil and Skyla. After Acrobatics only Crunch and (maybe) Brine is skipped, but honestly Crunch is terribly unnecessary, Shadow Claw is fine for ingame. With a boosting move at hand, Panpour is clearly one of the best choices ever for a water mon.

 

[Virizion]

Archen should be at the very top, 112 Attack, gets a 110 BP STAB move in 3 levels, outspeeds a lot of crap, and what not. This guy redefines god itself.

Cobalion can stay in Upp. Mid. Going out of the way to nab him isn't really efficient to me.

Lillipup can stay where its ass is parked right now.

No comments on Sandile.

IMO Pansage for Upper Mid. It's a great grass type, but its STAB is physical, which is seriously annoying ingame(when you can't 2HKO Roggenrolas something is wrong). Pansear should be at the bottom. In fact, it's the only drawback to nabbing Oshawott, lol. It's basically another Purrloin when you try to train it, and Fire hits... nothing early for SE. You've to wait until Pinwheel when you can finally train it, but I'd prefer Timburr for that already. No.

Zorua stays. Illusion actually fools the AI, to the point that Caitlin will repeatedly attempt to Psychic 'Conkeldurr'.

Solosis, I dunno. It can run Dual Screens to assist the team though, but you need to be lucky to have a workable Hidden Power. :/

Frillish to low. It's very existence relies on a surfer. In that case, use the surfer instead, lol.

Golett is cool, so he stays. It's not that hard to get a Iron Fist Golett, since the second floor of DS Tower is filled with nothing but 'em.

Karrablast down to bottom, Terrakion up to Lower Mid. Karrablast has terrible stats, needs a trade to evolve, and it doesn't accomplish anything. Sucks a lot, imo. Terrakion on the other hand, can be actually useful in E4.

IMO Deino, Pansear, Purrloin and Larvesta deserve their own tier. Name them, 'The Trolls'. They suck so badly, they are only right below Flareon and Farfetch'd on GameFreak's hate list.(fine, its an exaggeration, but still.)

EDIT: wootz 1000th post on the forums

I tried to use Purrloin, I really did. I gave up after about 10 minutes of using it then later caught a Liepard in the desert, alongside a Darumaka. I used both, but.. Darumaka was just bad for me, I boxed it and trained Liepard to 34 then boxed it too in Mistralton lol

Liepard really wasn't that bad, it outsped a lot of things, but it was still kinda weak and had to rely on Pursuit :L

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Darumaka... bad? I think Hustle hax must have really sucked for you.

Liepard sucks. Scraggy is a much better Dark-type, and can hog Eviolite for a long long time. Liepard is basically speed and nothing else: no bulk and no power. Bullcrap.

Also, how do you catch Liepard on Route 4, lol?

 

[Virizion]

Darumaka... bad? I think Hustle hax must have really sucked for you.

Liepard sucks. Scraggy is a much better Dark-type, and can hog Eviolite for a long long time. Liepard is basically speed and nothing else: no bulk and no power. Bullcrap.

Also, how do you catch Liepard on Route 4, lol?

It was right after Castelia, you can find wild Liepards in the sand, the one I caught was level 22.

And I do admit my final team sucked, it was because I was doing more of a "carefree" playthrough (I got the game almost as soon as it was released, and I didn't check this thread around that time). I can't restart because I have tons of EV'eds/events/etc. so I'm waiting until I can get White (First game was Black since my favorite is Whimsicott, only to later find out that it sucks in-game).

 

[TheSubwayMaster]

Upper/Lower Mid are necessary. We won't get anywhere with certain Pokemon (Dwebble, Joltik, Petilil, Solosis, Panpour, Ducklett, Pidove, and Munna) without those. Some Pokemon are clearly inappropriate in their current tiers. It is in mine and several others in this thread's opinion that Upper and Lower Mid are called for. Perhaps Top is useful as well, but Upper and Lower Mid are the ones that are really necessary.

 

[Sajak]

How is Cobalion high? It comes far too late for that.

Also, Sigilyph and Joltik need to be switched. Sigilyph really starts to fall a bit late in the game, while Joltik is just amazing from the second it evolves, and doesn't need much to get to that point.