In-Game Tier List Discussion

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Arcticblast

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My (Relaxed) Lilligant all but soloed Ghetsis. Boufalant (?) had Intimidate so I used Sleep Powder when Lilli came in and started Quiver Dancing (with healing). I then killed it with Giga Drain and out came Hydreigon which I stalled out with Leech Seed (yes, I am completely and utterly walled by Grass types) until I was at +6/+6/+6. Thank god no crits happened there. After beating Hydreigon, I proceeded to rape Ghetsis's team.

tl;dr Lilligant does not suck and is not garbage.
 
i thought Lilligant had a lot of hate going on it?


Besides, Leaf Blade hits harder than Lily's Giga Drain, and Leavanny has way better covergae.
this.

how Lilligant can be higher than Leavanny beats me. Hits harder, better stabs, an extra stab that provides VERY good coverage against the E4 and to destroy other grass types, etc.
 

breh

強いだね
Quiver Dance, I presume. CM is very powerful. Sleep Powder is a boost too.

But I agree Leavanny is rape. It kicks the elie four's ass and fully evolves veeeeeery early without losing any levelup moves.
 
Slow as fuck. Has to boost to do damage
She KO'ed plenty of things with Giga Drain. She also has 90 base Speed, which is most certainly not "slow as fuck."

Really, I think some people are commenting on certain Pokemon without ever having used them before. Either that or they caught one with really terrible IV's in all the wrong places and then proceeded to put said Pokemon in less-than-favorable situations just to see it fail.


As for Leavanny, I think it's pretty good. I would put it somewhere in Upper-mid (which, for the record, is probably where I would also place Lilligant).
 
Okay, I used Crustle, Sawk, Throh, Seismitoad, Swanna and Scrafty. Swanna just died a lot and I didn't really need Sawk (Except for Sturdy + Counter on Mienshao), and Crustle was suprisingly good. It almost swept Shauntal and Caitlin, but if you don't have Earthquake for Caitlin's Metagross (I didn't have it, I had Flail), then it stops you mid-sweep by being neutral to your best attack and hitting you with SE BP. I tried to sweep Marshal with it but Breloom survived +2 X-Scissor and Effect Spore activated, which Paralyzed me so I had to switch out. At the beginning of the fight with Shauntal, I used Throh because I thought Cofagrigus always used WoW on physical attackers, but it used Psychic first which caught me off-guard, but I pretty much swept her with it even with all the random Psychic-users she has. Scrafty swept Grimsley obviously, with Seismitoad being useful for late-game cleaning.

Against Alder, I almost lost to Accelgor (Bug-Buzzed Crustle, Energy-Balled Seismitoad, Energy-Balled Swanna, and killed Sawk while its Stone Edge missed and it would've killed Scrafty with Focus Blast), but Throh came in, killed it with Stone Edge, then set up on Escavalier and just swept his entire team.

Overall, I'd say Dwebble is pretty good, and so is Throh. The only bad thing I could see about them is their rarity (In the desert, I found like 4 Maractus, 15 Sandile, 3 Sigilyph and like 10 Darumaka, then I found one single Dwebble and it had Shell Armor..), and training them through the amount of time before they get their good moves.
In all my casual playthroughs, I don't think I've ever found a single Dwebble there, haha. Which is why it surprised me when apparently you can find them there.

On another note, I'm cementing Cubchoo's place down in low. Running off a weak Icy Wind coming off his worse attacking state, being horribly frail doesn't do it any favours. He has decent TM compatibility, learning Surf/Shadow Claw/Dig all at once if you want, but he's really too frail, honestly.

Any word on Cryogonal though?
 
Leavanny is not better than Lilligant. Especially the Trade one.

Lilligant's SpA is higher than Leavanny's Atk. A very significant number of Pokemon in Gen 5 have a noticeably lower SpD than Def. Lilligant learns Giga Drain 10 levels before Leavanny learns Leaf Blade. If we assume that the two Pokemon have equal IVs and natures against a foe with equal defenses, Leavanny's damage advantage comes to less than 13%. If you compare the Trade Lilligant to an average Leavanny, though, Lilligant wins by about 3%.

Leavanny gets no setup/utility moves until directly before the Elite 4. Lilligant starts with Sleep Powder + Growth (Sleep Powder will give you plenty of time to set up, and is insanely useful all around), and picks up Quiver Dance (arguably the best setup move in the game) a couple levels after evolving.

Against the Elite 4, Lilligant will have Petal Dance, which after a Quiver Dance outdamages a Super Effective X-Scissor (Leavanny will have a harder time setting up Swords Dance because of a lack of Sleep Powder and more weaknesses).

People seem to be forgetting that Leavanny's Bug typing does not come free. It gives him a weakness to Rock (one of the more common attacking types in-game), as well as turning the Flying weakness (another pretty common attacking type) from an annoyance to a huge threat.

And let's face it, the extra coverage gained is of limited usefulness before the Elite 4. Most of the Dark, Psychic, and Grass types you commonly encounter are extremely lulzworthy anyways.

Also, I'm really, really not seeing how Petilil has "nothing to train against". Outside of targets who resist Grass, Petilil is perfectly capable of taking stuff out, even if it insn't the fastest thing on your team. Especially with Sleep Powder, Growth, and a free Miracle Seed around, Petilil is nothing difficult to train.

I'm willing to concede Joltik to Upper Mid (although I think he's on the low end of High), but Petilil just has too much utility and raw power to drop down. If you don't misplay her, she's absolutely amazing.

Edit: Cryogonal sucks. It just folds to physical attacks, it's extremely rare (especially outside of Winter), it has extremely few coverage options that don't use its terrible Atk stat, and it really has nothing to going for it besides STAB Ice Beam coming off of 95 SpA.
 
Leavanny is not better than Lilligant. Especially the Trade one.

Lilligant's SpA is higher than Leavanny's Atk. A very significant number of Pokemon in Gen 5 have a noticeably higher SpD than Def. Lilligant learns Giga Drain 10 levels before Leavanny learns Leaf Blade. If we assume that the two Pokemon have equal IVs and natures against a foe with equal defenses, Leavanny's damage advantage comes to less than 13%. If you compare the Trade Lilligant to an average Leavanny, though, Lilligant wins by about 3%.

Bolded part: How the hell does that make Lilligant better? If more pokemon had higher SpD I would think that Lilligant would have it harder, considering it uses special attacks, and that Leavanny uses physical attacks.
The 2 of them should evolve at roughly the same time, which is somewhere around the late 20s in level when you reach Nimbasa City. Petilil is not that much stronger than Swadloon at that point, and has an extra bug stab to fling around.


Leavanny gets no setup/utility moves until directly before the Elite 4. Lilligant starts with Sleep Powder + Growth (Sleep Powder will give you plenty of time to set up, and is insanely useful all around), and picks up Quiver Dance (arguably the best setup move in the game) a couple levels after evolving.

Against the Elite 4, Lilligant will have Petal Dance, which after a Quiver Dance outdamages a Super Effective X-Scissor (Leavanny will have a harder time setting up Swords Dance because of a lack of Sleep Powder and more weaknesses).

Leavanny doesnt need to set up against the majority of the Elite 4 that it is useful against.
Caitlin's Reuniclus and Gothitelle die in 1 hit to X-Scissor, while Musharna is 2koed and cannot even do 50% to you in return in 1 hit. Sigilyph beats you, but can Lilligant stand up to it?
Grimsley's Liepard and Krookodile obviously dont stand a chance, while Scrafty cannot take out Leavanny in one hit, and you also have a fighting resistance to chew brick break up with thanks to that BUG TYPE. Bisharp is a problem, but again, use your team!
Chauntal's Jellicent and Golurk die to Leaf Blade.
Wont get in to detail with Marshal since neither Leavanny and Lilligant have the edge on him.

People seem to be forgetting that Leavanny's Bug typing does not come free. It gives him a weakness to Rock (one of the more common attacking types in-game), as well as turning the Flying weakness (another pretty common attacking type) from an annoyance to a huge threat.

Most rock type attack users are rock or ground types that Leavanny outspeeds and Leaf Blades to death. Not so much of a weakness after all. Flying types are a problem, yes, but they are just as much of a problem for Lilligant, since most are physical.

And let's face it, the extra coverage gained is of limited usefulness before the Elite 4. Most of the Dark, Psychic, and Grass types you commonly encounter are extremely lulzworthy anyways.

Fine, but its an extra stab to use when Grass is resisted and even neutral damage is better than a resisted Giga Drain right?

Also, I'm really, really not seeing how Petilil has "nothing to train against". Outside of targets who resist Grass, Petilil is perfectly capable of taking stuff out, even if it insn't the fastest thing on your team. Especially with Sleep Powder, Growth, and a free Miracle Seed around, Petilil is nothing difficult to train.

Wont comment on this since I do agree that its not as hard to train as some make it out to be, although by no means easy, just not hard.

Im going to try out Lilligant again because of all this discussion, maybe it will prove me wrong.
 
It's amazing how i was quite literally the only person in this thread that argued Joltik going down a tier, but after Colonel_M posted stating he'd move it, the same people that were trying to disprove me are now heavily supporting it staying mid tier. Talk about solid opinions...

Same deal with Petilil - nobody was even questioning its tiering, but after Colonel_M's post everyone's attitude changed drastically (even to the point where it's being compared to the inferior Leavanny, which has worse stats and neither Quiver Dance nor Sleep Powder)... I mean, seriously, it needs babying till you get the Sun Stone (which is by Nacrene btw), but a decently levelled up Liligant with Giga Drain/QD/SP/Sub can easily sweep through N, Ghetsis, the E4 both times and Alder completely unharmed. Black's IGT is Modest 31 sp.atk IV, and i personally never had an issue ohkoing anything Grass can hit neutrally with it... And yet, after Colonel_M downgraded it, people went as far as to call it "garbage".

What's the point in giving your "opinion" about a pokemon's tiering when it's so heavily influenced by others' experiences, that it's no longer your own opinion?
 
This is a nice list, though it seems rather.. unupdated?

I have a rather serious question, Drilbur or Sandile? As my in game ground type.

Drilbur, from what I heard has problems at first when you first encounter it. (Getting to level 19 for dig) Is that a major problem?

Sandile, I have heard suffers from bad defenses which mitigate his advantages.

I would like a solid argument please, as it would be really helpful if its not any trouble. Also, to everyone who has used Scraggy extensively... how is he compared to Sandile as a dark type?
 
Drilbur>Sandile. I'd catch one in Chargestone Cave though, just so that you don't have to go through that horrible early-game phase of having Fury Swipes as your only attack.

Sandile>Scraggy as a Dark type, because Scraggy loses against two of the most common Psychics (Woobat and Sigilyph). If you don't have another Fighting-type though, go with Scraggy.
 
Lilligant is garbage :P

Terrible STAb, no place to train. Slow as fuck. Has to boost to do damage. i quoted Col. m a few pages ago if you want specifics.
Uh what
Lilligant was my personal death machine throughout the entire game. typically outspeeding without a QD (and this had a minus speed nature), it could fire off Leech Seed &/or Sleep Powder if need be, and Giga Drain smarts most things to a ridiculous degree (while healing yourself to boot).
And the 90 base speed mons are not "slow as fuck", much less in The Land of Glaciers that is Unova.
 
I am all for supporting Lilligant. Yes, it can't touch some Pokemon without a good Hidden Power (hard to get) or Hyper Beam (really?), but it is a diabolical set-up Pokemon. Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance and Petal Dance/Giga Drain is amazing. It can't beat Ghetsis' Bouffalant: other things can. It loses to some things, it kills everything else. Granted, it IS initially hard to train, but fast, specially strong and loaded with utility. I'd support it being at least Upper Mid or High, if not God (not quite as good as Darmanitan or Archeops.)
 
UGH FOR FUCKS SAKE PEOPLE STOP DISCUSSING THE SAME 2 POKEMON AD NAUSEUM, I SWEAR YOU'RE ALL DOING THIS JUST TO TROLL THE THREAD.

For the last fucking time, Petilil is Upper Mid because as all of you have so lovingly mentioned, Petilil needs to be babied and Lillgant NEEDS SETUP to be decent. What happens when your beloved little Sleep Powder misses with its crappy 75% accuracy? Lillicant takes a massive hit, that's what. If a Pokemon needs setup to be good, IT IS NOT HIGH. That's the entire reason why High exists, it's for Pokemon which hit hard with minimal (in most cases no) setup. Lilligant, with it's overreliance on Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance, absolutely awful coverage and having to be babied when you initially get it, is not in High, but it is in the next best place. Satisfied?

For the love of God, can you actually disguss Pokemon which DESERVE to be discussed, ones which haven't been discussed yet? Instead of THE SAME TWO FUCKING THINGS WE STARTED OFF DISCUSSING WITH?!
 
UGH FOR FUCKS SAKE PEOPLE STOP DISCUSSING THE SAME 2 POKEMON AD NAUSEUM, I SWEAR YOU'RE ALL DOING THIS JUST TO TROLL THE THREAD.

For the last fucking time, Petilil is Upper Mid because as all of you have so lovingly mentioned, Petilil needs to be babied and Lillgant NEEDS SETUP to be decent. What happens when your beloved little Sleep Powder misses with its crappy 75% accuracy? Lillicant takes a massive hit, that's what. If a Pokemon needs setup to be good, IT IS NOT HIGH. That's the entire reason why High exists, it's for Pokemon which hit hard with minimal (in most cases no) setup. Lilligant, with it's overreliance on Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance, absolutely awful coverage and having to be babied when you initially get it, is not in High, but it is in the next best place. Satisfied?

For the love of God, can you actually disguss Pokemon which DESERVE to be discussed, ones which haven't been discussed yet? Instead of THE SAME TWO FUCKING THINGS WE STARTED OFF DISCUSSING WITH?!
Or we, y'know, can talk about it until we're done instead of discontinuing early and mistiering. And if someone actually wants to talk about something else's tiering, they are going to - even with a separate argument going. Don't pretend that just because we have one argument going we can't talk about anything else.

I love how you basically come in saying "STOP TALKING ABOUT IT I'M OBVIOUSLY RIGHT SO IT'S POINTLESS TO ARGUE", and call us trolls.

Petilil needs setup. Lilligant does not, at least not most of the time. When Lilligant does, it's in situations where most other Pokemon need to set up as well, only they cannot (at least not nearly as well). After setup, Lilligant is the single most deadly easily accessible Pokemon around.

@sharkz: I obviously meant to say many things have lower SpD than Def instead of higher. Also, Lilligant does great against Marshal where Lilligant fails. Stone Edge isn't nearly so deadly, and Sleep Powder will give you time to set up against Throh for a clean sweep.

@Vii: Drilbur is fine. You get him early enough in the game that being a little on the weak side for a few levels isn't some huge disadvantage. Worst case scenario you can pick one up at first opportunity and then just bench him until you get the Dig TM, at which time it won't take long to power-level him against random trainers.

@Vladimir: More people have been supporting moving Joltik down less because they are agreeing with Colonel M and more because we've had confirmation we're probably getting new tiers.

Also, "Sandile > Scraggy"? I'm going to say that's not the case. Yes, you'll take more damage from Swoobat/Sigilyph (who aren't even all that common), but Scraggy has so much higher defenses than Sandile it won't be nearly as big a difference as you think. And Scraggy is better against the average foe because it has noticeably fewer weaknesses and better defenses.
 
Sawk can survive even a +6 Giga Drain with Sturdy and KO Lilligant with Retaliate. I don't see how is that a clean sweep.

Also Scraggy has way better bulk and can use a move called Work Up, allowing it to deal some damage right off the bat. And it's easy to use, thanks to its incredible Eviolite'd bulk.
 
Sawk can survive even a +6 Giga Drain with Sturdy and KO Lilligant with Retaliate. I don't see how is that a clean sweep.
Maybe not the "cleanest" of sweeps, but if you use Giga Drain to take out Throh you can still Sleep Powder Sawk for a 75% chance to avoid Retaliate (it's not much of a threat at 70 BP). Either way Lilligant performs much, much better against Marshal than Leavanny ever could.
 
Nothing good really performs against Marshal: even Golurk, the only Unova mon to resist Fighting+ Rock, must watch out for Grass Knot(despite Sawk and Conkeldurr's SpA, lol).
 
Nothing good really performs against Marshal: even Golurk, the only Unova mon to resist Fighting+ Rock, must watch out for Grass Knot(despite Sawk and Conkeldurr's SpA, lol).
Garbodor and Amoongus actually do pretty well against Marshal.

But Leavanny actually does do worse than Lilligant for Marshal, since she's weak to Rock.
 
Hmm, I guess. I used Leavanny before, she was quite epic for me.

Anyway, back to the story, since Petilil and Joltik are easily one of the most controversial mons for ingame, it'd do good to discuss them. The others are kinda set in stone.

Also Vladimir, where are you moving Joltik down to, eh? If Joltik stays, it's still not going down. I do not understand you, and your points are extremely weird.
 
Nothing good really performs against Marshal: even Golurk, the only Unova mon to resist Fighting+ Rock, must watch out for Grass Knot(despite Sawk and Conkeldurr's SpA, lol).
Grass Knot depends on weight not SpA. It's mainly for coverage and doesn't actually depend on your attack stats.
 
Grass Knot depends on weight not SpA. It's mainly for coverage and doesn't actually depend on your attack stats.
Its base power varies not the damage it does. For example it can be a 200 BP attack or a 20 BP attack. Its not percentage based. Its just like any other special grass move except for the fact its Base Power varies.
 
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