np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Princess Bubblegum]

Ok lets compare this system to real world systems, in the past warriors would prove themselfs on the battlefield and becomes kings, similar to Pokemon players proving themselfs on the battlefield. Only the best would survive and where able to speak there minds and become voters and leaders. You do realize those 2 systems are exactly the same, and if your supporting a tyranical dictatorship, then there is something wrong with you.

And there is a very simple solution to balancing the commonfool's stupidity, and there right to vote and do what they want, a Republic. Stupidity is filtered through the representatives for the voters, and they still have influence on the decisions.

 

[pkmn1000]

if anyone over 1250 could vote instead of a 15+15 system, that would mean smogon is truely democratic, unfortunately we're not there yet, PO system really sucks when you can fall from 1400 to 1260 in just 5 or 6 haxxed up battles.

 

[XienZo]

Ok lets compare this system to real world systems, in the past warriors would prove themselfs on the battlefield and becomes kings, similar to Pokemon players proving themselfs on the battlefield. Only the best would survive and where able to speak there minds and become voters and leaders. You do realize those 2 systems are exactly the same, and if your supporting a tyranical dictatorship, then there is something wrong with you.

Somehow, I'm very skeptical that anything in history actually occurred remotely like that, not to mention that monarchies are very much outclassed nowadays...

And there is a very simple solution to balancing the commonfool's stupidity, and there right to vote and do what they want, a Republic. Stupidity is filtered through the representatives for the voters, and they still have influence on the decisions.

That'd be nice, but that's a lot of work to setup for just a bit of voting, y'know. Not to mention, in reality, representatives and their constituents are based on geography, while there isn't any sort of local continuity on the internet.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

That'd be nice, but that's a lot of work to setup for just a bit of voting, y'know. Not to mention, in reality, representatives and their constituents are based on geography, while there isn't any sort of local continuity on the internet.

To be honest, this here I have spent much thought on, and honestly I can not come up with a clear cut solution. The only thing I can think of to solve this problem is perhaps a mass voting? There is a total of perhaps 100 possible canadites, and each person gets 20 votes for whatever people they want (and no they can not mass them all in one person). And whatever 20 people get the most votes, win and get to be representatives. But even that is iffy, I am perferctly open to other ways a republic on the internet could be run.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Ok lets compare this system to real world systems, in the past warriors would prove themselfs on the battlefield and becomes kings, similar to Pokemon players proving themselfs on the battlefield. Only the best would survive and where able to speak there minds and become voters and leaders. You do realize those 2 systems are exactly the same, and if your supporting a tyranical dictatorship, then there is something wrong with you.

And there is a very simple solution to balancing the commonfool's stupidity, and there right to vote and do what they want, a Republic. Stupidity is filtered through the representatives for the voters, and they still have influence on the decisions.

...1. This is more like officers on the battlefield with a mind for strategy being promoted to generals. The idea is again that the best players will make the best choices.
2. The issue according to PR is more "are the good players being represented" than "is everyone being represented."
3. Pretentiously talking about republics and real-world governments will get you nowhere. This an Internet forum, where people escape all those troublesome real-life matters and discuss things way less important.

 

[TheValkyries]

Smogon is not, and has never been, and hopefully never will be a Democracy. It is a dictatorship led at the discretion of those who achieve an elite status within the community through superior play.

Stop pretending that you have a vote in these matters, because you don't. You're only given a voice, and even the strength of that is at the discretion of those voting. This system isn't about fairness to the players as a whole, it's about creating a balanced meta-game. The opinions of those who don't achieve a high level of play should very much be held lower than those who do, as that shows an inherent lack of understanding of the meta-game we play, and therefore should not be impacting the meta-game in any significant manner.


Now, back to the real issue: the Meta-game.

Garchomp and Latios are showing significant signs of centralization in the stats. The common counters/checks of the two being in the top 5 (Gliscor and Ferrothorn for Garchomp and Tyranitar and Scizor for Latios). It also shows the usage of the other common sand abuser, Excadrill which in my opinion is only so high because of it's easy power and ability to mesh with Garchomp and Tyranitar well.

I think it's time I built myself a Sand team to test 'em out.

 

[Thorhammer]

Smogon is not, and has never been, and hopefully never will be a Democracy. It is a dictatorship led at the discretion of those who achieve an elite status within the community through superior play.

Stop pretending that you have a vote in these matters, because you don't. You're only given a voice, and even the strength of that is at the discretion of those voting. This system isn't about fairness to the players as a whole, it's about creating a balanced meta-game. The opinions of those who don't achieve a high level of play should very much be held lower than those who do, as that shows an inherent lack of understanding of the meta-game we play, and therefore should not be impacting the meta-game in any significant manner.


Now, back to the real issue: the Meta-game.

Garchomp and Latios are showing significant signs of centralization in the stats. The common counters/checks of the two being in the top 5 (Gliscor and Ferrothorn for Garchomp and Tyranitar and Scizor for Latios). It also shows the usage of the other common sand abuser, Excadrill which in my opinion is only so high because of it's easy power and ability to mesh with Garchomp and Tyranitar well.

I think it's time I built myself a Sand team to test 'em out.

I would describe it more as a meritocracy, as others have said. No reason to unnecessarily use descriptions with negative connotations, however inaccurate those connotations may be.

What I would say is that the votes go to only those who prove themselves in the game. For the rest of us, all we have is our voices. And if we have something important enough to say, and we can convey it well enough, that's all we need.

As for your other arguments, I also disagree. The Pokemon at the top of the usage charts wouldn't be the slightest bit different even without Latios and Garchomp. Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Gliscor, and most certainly Scizor are all just that amazing.

 

[waffles101]

I would, at this stage keep the metagame as it is. I know the weather wars may be annoying but I kind of like it this way. I never find anything too hard to face nor do I see my team as being OP (Drizzle w/o SS).

 

[alphatron]

Scizor may be good but I personally do not think he is good enough to be top 5 all on his own. His uage would certainly take a dip if Latios and Latias left the tier. Or if Reuniclus suddenly stopped being as popular.

I mean, look at that specially defensive Scizor set. That set sucks, but its used mainly to switch in on Latios Draco Meteors and threaten it out.

Also, I may have said this before. But Garchomp is a much bigger threat than Latios. If anyone wants to argue about how Sand Veil ruins games, look at Garchomp first and only garchomp.

He has more checks than he did last gen, but he can still end games incredibly easily. Mamoswine mentioned a while back that a Garchomp in the sun with Sword's Dance, Fire fang, Earthquake, and Outrage gets STAB on all of its attacks. That set actually manages to OHKO both Skarmory and Bronzong after a +2, no Life orb needed. Just like in fourth gen, the faster Ice users were all taken out by Yache Berry garchomp. There are things like Latios and Latias, but those are taken care of simply by teaming Chomp up with something like Escavelier, Metagross, or even Wobbufett.

Not to say he's broken, as he is an enormously powerful pokemon and can still be handled if you prepare for him. However, in my experience, not preparing for most other threats will simply give your team trouble. If you don't prepare for Reuniclus, it will probably kill off 1-2 team members before it dies. Don't prepare for Garchomp and you'll probably lose every match you battle against it.

 

[Lee]

...there's nothing about Ferrothorn that's broken in the slightest.

I think we've been a little quick to dismiss Ferrothorn, probably due to our inclination to focus on offensive Pokemon when it comes to nominating suspects. I'm not saying I believe him to be a suspect...I'm on the fence tbh and as such I'd like to see a little more discussion on him than 'lol x4 fire weak.' Anything's better than yet more weather discussion, right?

One could argue that Ferrothorn has a bigger overall impact on the metagame than weather because, thanks to his ridiculously good typing and stats, he can reliably and consistently set up Stealth Rock and Spikes. Such easy and convenient access to those hazards totally changes the flow of the game. It becomes too easy for something like Specs Latios, Landlos or [Water type in Drizzle] to just unleash their powerful attacks knowing that not much can survive after accounting for the entry hazard damage. The problem is only made worse by the fact that Ferrothorn is so darn good and the Rapid Spinners are just plain awful with the exception of Starmie who usually doesn't bother spinning anyway.

I'm reminded of a situation in 4th Gen UU where the combination of Froslass + Moltres was believed to be broken due to Moltres being able to 2HKO almost everything after Froslass had laid down Spikes. So what did our voters decide? We banned Froslass. I think we're in a similar situation now - players have incredibly easy and reliable access to Spikes and can compliment it with some ridiculously hard hitting Pokemon like those mentioned in the previous paragraph.

It's no coincidence that 6 of the top 10 most used Pokemon are immune to Spikes when using their standard sets.

I'm sure there are plenty of reasons to disagree with my reasoning but don't bother with 'other pokemon learn spikes too!' because there hasn't been such a capable user of the move since 3rd Gen Skarm (and you couldn't pair him up with fucking Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor spam). A lot of Spikers are dead-weight outside of their primary role but Ferrothorn is capable of so much more thanks to his high BP attacks, Iron Barbs (seriously, talk about overkill) and Leech Seed.

tl;dr: Ferrothorn makes it way too easy to get up entry hazards, lack of viable Spinners makes it really difficult to get rid of them and there are too many powerful attackers to take advantage of the spike stacking. It could well end up that by banning Ferrothorn we avoid having to ban Latios, Thundurus, Garchomp etc.

Sure I'm gonna be quite unpopular for this but go ahead and tell me what you think anyway. ^_~

 

[alphatron]

Actually, the rapid spinner doesn't matter, thanks to iron barbs. If you're running rocky helmet, rapid spinners lose 25% of their health just for trying to rapid spin. Add is leech seed damage (all spinners are faster than ferro, so you can just leech seed them after they spin) and weather damage and spinners usually just switch out or die as they spin. And when a spinner dies the turn they use rapid spin, they don't spin away any hazards. Rapid spinning when ferrothorn is alive is even worse than trying to use a spinner during the platinum metagame, where Rotom-A laughed at all of them.

 

[Jibaku]

Well Lee does have a point here (actually Rising_Duck brought it up to me before a while back). Rarely do we ever ban something on the defensive (except for maybe...Cresselia in Gen 4 UU? Then again it fulfilled the other characteristics to an extent so w/e), and Ferrothorn could be something to look into.

That said, I wouldn't go about banning Ferrothorn in this metagame. Though it does provide "easy Spikes" or so to speak, Ferrothorn plays a large role in "gluing" this metagame together (I...hope I don't have to list what Pokemon it checks?). Whether that or its immense support is a more powerful force is up to your interpretation though. However I do find that Ferrothorn is relatively easy to abuse against occasionally. Lack of Spikes immunity places it in a terrible position against things like Forretress (who could Rapid Spin, as painful that might be. Even if Forry loses in the end it probably would have gotten more entry hazards down than Ferrothorn), Skarmory (Spikes immune), or Deoxys-S (quick Spikes), and things like Reuniclus stops its Leech Seed recovery and murders it.

ps: Don't use Rocky Helmet. Leftovers is much better.

 

[Ulevo]

ps: Don't use Rocky Helmet. Leftovers is much better.

I've used Rocky Helmet on every incarnation I've had and it has yet to disappoint. Not that Leftovers couldn't be useful, its just that I find the combination of Spikes damage + Leech Seed + Protect + Rocky Helmet & Iron Barbs damage helps to check a lot of physical threats.

 

[Ninja-persian]

Don't forget that ferrothorn's 4x fire weakness is halved in the rain, where he is also a staple. I think ferrothorn is too strong defensively to stay in OU. With proper defense investment, he can survive a 252 atk jolly scarfed terakion CC if itnis at full health, and cripple it with twave or ko with power whip. In my book, this is just too good for OU.

 

[Ulevo]

Don't forget that ferrothorn's 4x fire weakness is halved in the rain, where he is also a staple. I think ferrothorn is too strong defensively to stay in OU. With proper defense investment, he can survive a 252 atk jolly scarfed terakion CC if itnis at full health, and cripple it with twave or ko with power whip. In my book, this is just too good for OU.

And I assume you're to be the first of the many bandwagoning on Ferrothorn now that statistics are out and a few notable players have mentioned an opinion.

It'd be nice if we ever got to a point where people didn't feel the need to look for something to complain about.

Ferrothorn isn't suspect because it isn't broken. It's incredibly good at what it does, but you aren't required to use it in order to win.

I think we've been a little quick to dismiss Ferrothorn, probably due to our inclination to focus on offensive Pokemon when it comes to nominating suspects. I'm not saying I believe him to be a suspect...I'm on the fence tbh and as such I'd like to see a little more discussion on him than 'lol x4 fire weak.' Anything's better than yet more weather discussion, right?

Aside from being 4x weak to Fire:

• Weak to Fighting, common type
• Taunt
• Trick
• Magic Bounce
• Easy to set up on with particular threats; Volcarona, Heatran, Dragonite, Garchomp, et cetera

One could argue that Ferrothorn has a bigger overall impact on the metagame than weather because, thanks to his ridiculously good typing and stats, he can reliably and consistently set up Stealth Rock and Spikes. Such easy and convenient access to those hazards totally changes the flow of the game. It becomes too easy for something like Specs Latios, Landlos or [Water type in Drizzle] to just unleash their powerful attacks knowing that not much can survive after accounting for the entry hazard damage. The problem is only made worse by the fact that Ferrothorn is so darn good and the Rapid Spinners are just plain awful with the exception of Starmie who usually doesn't bother spinning anyway.

I'm reminded of a situation in 4th Gen UU where the combination of Froslass + Moltres was believed to be broken due to Moltres being able to 2HKO almost everything after Froslass had laid down Spikes. So what did our voters decide? We banned Froslass. I think we're in a similar situation now - players have incredibly easy and reliable access to Spikes and can compliment it with some ridiculously hard hitting Pokemon like those mentioned in the previous paragraph.

It's no coincidence that 6 of the top 10 most used Pokemon are immune to Spikes when using their standard sets.

I'm sure there are plenty of reasons to disagree with my reasoning but don't bother with 'other pokemon learn spikes too!' because there hasn't been such a capable user of the move since 3rd Gen Skarm (and you couldn't pair him up with fucking Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor spam). A lot of Spikers are dead-weight outside of their primary role but Ferrothorn is capable of so much more thanks to his high BP attacks, Iron Barbs (seriously, talk about overkill) and Leech Seed.

tl;dr: Ferrothorn makes it way too easy to get up entry hazards, lack of viable Spinners makes it really difficult to get rid of them and there are too many powerful attackers to take advantage of the spike stacking. It could well end up that by banning Ferrothorn we avoid having to ban Latios, Thundurus, Garchomp etc.

Sure I'm gonna be quite unpopular for this but go ahead and tell me what you think anyway. ^_~

This idea that Ferrothorn has an detrimental impact to the metagame due to its ability to set up SR or Spikes easily thus allowing top threats to sweep with ease is two fold, because its Ferrothorn that is keeping a lot of these dominant threats in check. As Jibaku pointed out, Ferrothorn is a glue that holds many teams together because it is effective. If you take out Ferrothron, honestly, you'd likely making the problem worse. While setting up hazards could arguably be more difficult by removing Ferrothorn from the picture, the fact is that we don't really have a shortage of good Pokemon who are capable of doing the job. Forretress, Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D, Skarmory, and Roserade are all capable. Less seen alternatives are Crustle, Accelgor and Scolipede; Crustle has access to both Stealth Rock and Spikes + Sturdy, while Accelgor and Scolipede have high speed, with Scolipede having access to Toxic Spikes.

If you were to nominate and subsequently ban Ferrothorn, all that would really likely happen is it would be replaced by something that is still capable of setting up hazards (like one of the Pokemon I mentioned) and we'd have one less defensive threat to check those Specs Latios Draco Meteors your talking about.

 

[SupremeDirt]

Until Ferrothorn has usage above Gen IV Heatran, who iirc had 25% usage at one point, people arguing for it to be banned have no case. At all. The usage statistics show the centralization to be par for the course.

Hopefully this can, at least for the moment, put a stop to the silliness that has been going on in this thread for a while.

 

[SalTheThief]

I absolutely HATE dealing with Ferrothorn. His combination of Leech Seed, Iron Barbs, Spikes, Stealth Rock, and decent offensive stats make it a pain to fight. It's ridiculous how even STAB Fighting moves fail to OHKO it, and the Leech Seed + Protect combo played well enough is enough to bring it back from the brink of death. That being said, I'm not sure if Ferrothorn is bad enough to be tested (I'm not against it. I'm on the fence). Having to pack a Fire, Ground, or Fighting move is something all teams are forced to do to get past Steel types. However, Ferrothorn is the only pokemon I've seen where this is a requirement. At least in Gen 4 with Scizor and Forretress you could wear it down with repeated neutral hits. It's defensive stats and typing allow it to shrug off anything not super effective. Not to mention that most of the time the neutral hits aren't STAB for Ferrothorn (Ground, Flying, Ice, and Bug). My felings for the steel UFO thing are that it's bad enough to be annoying, but not to the point where I actively want it gone.

 

[capefeather]

OK, I think that you guys have to be a bit fair here. Only one person has explicitly called to ban Ferrothorn, and it sure wasn't me or Lee. The case being made is that Ferrothorn is as deserving of the general suspect complaining as some of the other stuff being thrown around. In a way, this HELPS the case that nothing needs to be banned.

 

[ShadiSmith]

Ferrothorn is perfect set up fodder for many pokemon. Switch it to SR or spikes, set up a sub, and you get at least two set ups before your sub breaks. Especially if you burn it or put it to sleep. Despite it having base 131def and 116sdef, there's no way its gonna survive even a +2 brick break/superpower or flamethrower, even in the rain. Unlike certain pokemon (Chomp, Latios), you really dont need to worry much about ferro, because usually people have counters for steels, and ferrothorn is no different.

 

[Ninja-persian]

Ferrothorn isn't suspect because it isn't broken. It's incredibly good at what it does, but you aren't required to use it in order to win.

Did I ever say the word broken? What I'm trying to say that I think that the other pokemon in OU are not in the same level as ferrothorn. Ferrothorn has fantastic defenses and good attack, which combined with its astounding ability, can almost cripple whole teams. All in all, i think ferrothorn should be at least nominated as a suspect, because it is a pokemon that has drastically changed the metagame, and IMO, is just a superior pokemon than the others in OU at the moment.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

Did I ever say the word broken? What I'm trying to say that I think that the other pokemon in OU are not in the same level as ferrothorn. Ferrothorn has fantastic defenses and good attack, which combined with its astounding ability, can almost cripple whole teams. All in all, i think ferrothorn should be at least nominated as a suspect, because it is a pokemon that has drastically changed the metagame, and IMO, is just a superior pokemon than the others in OU at the moment.

If its not broken then why make it suspect?, being a "superior" pokemon is not enough reason to give it a slim chance of being banned through making it suspect.

besides its only half a percentage pint more used than Tyranitar, should we ban T-Tar as well?

Its ridiculous usage is no reason to ban something.

 

[Thorhammer]

Did I ever say the word broken? What I'm trying to say that I think that the other pokemon in OU are not in the same level as ferrothorn. Ferrothorn has fantastic defenses and good attack, which combined with its astounding ability, can almost cripple whole teams. All in all, i think ferrothorn should be at least nominated as a suspect, because it is a pokemon that has drastically changed the metagame, and IMO, is just a superior pokemon than the others in OU at the moment.

Being superior to other Pokemon isn't a good reason to ban a Pokemon. The only reason to ban a Pokemon is if it is broken, and as you admitted, Ferrothorn is not. And as the only reason to make a Pokemon a suspect is because people think the Pokemon should be banned, if Ferrothorn should not be banned, Ferrothorn should not be a suspect.

You understand the tiering system enough to understand this much, yes?

---

On a slightly different note, non-Pokemon factors can be banned if they are uncompetitive by means of promoting hax to a dramatic extent over strategy. However, no aspect of Ferrothorn fits this condition.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Keep in mind that Ferrothorn effectively allows a Sub Charge Magnezone (especially the Rain+Thunder version) to get 2-3 free kills as it is quite bulky and can take a hit after the sub half the time.

As people said, it provides lots of set up oppurtunities.

 

[Sajak]

Aside from being 4x weak to Fire:

• Weak to Fighting, common type
• Taunt
• Trick
• Magic Bounce
• Easy to set up on with particular threats; Volcarona, Heatran, Dragonite, Garchomp, et cetera

Ferrothorn often carries T-Wave, which cripples all of those except for Chomp though. It's not the most common, but it's used enough that you need to be aware of it.

This idea that Ferrothorn has an detrimental impact to the metagame due to its ability to set up SR or Spikes easily thus allowing top threats to sweep with ease is two fold, because its Ferrothorn that is keeping a lot of these dominant threats in check. As Jibaku pointed out, Ferrothorn is a glue that holds many teams together because it is effective. If you take out Ferrothron, honestly, you'd likely making the problem worse. While setting up hazards could arguably be more difficult by removing Ferrothorn from the picture, the fact is that we don't really have a shortage of good Pokemon who are capable of doing the job. Forretress, Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D, Skarmory, and Roserade are all capable. Less seen alternatives are Crustle, Accelgor and Scolipede; Crustle has access to both Stealth Rock and Spikes + Sturdy, while Accelgor and Scolipede have high speed, with Scolipede having access to Toxic Spikes.

If you were to nominate and subsequently ban Ferrothorn, all that would really likely happen is it would be replaced by something that is still capable of setting up hazards (like one of the Pokemon I mentioned) and we'd have one less defensive threat to check those Specs Latios Draco Meteors your talking about.

Completely agree here. Getting rid of Ferrothorn would lead to Latios being banned quicker (not to mention others most likely). When Latios, who is probably the Pokemon with the most support for a ban right now, needs to carry HP Fire specifically for Ferrothorn, you know Ferrothorn's banning would lead to Latios being banned.

And don't say HP Fire is used to counter Scizor too. Nobody ran HP Fire on Latias last gen to counter Scizor (or Forre), and Scizor was easily one of the most common threats last gen too.

 

[Ulevo]

Ferrothorn often carries T-Wave, which cripples all of those except for Chomp though. It's not the most common, but it's used enough that you need to be aware of it.

Ferrothorn rarely carries Thunder Wave. I've only witnessed this a few times at best. Also, Volcarona still walks over Ferrothorn and Rests off the Thunder Wave paralysis.

And don't say HP Fire is used to counter Scizor too. Nobody ran HP Fire on Latias last gen to counter Scizor (or Forre), and Scizor was easily one of the most common threats last gen too.

Um. Yeah, they did. HP Fire was used fairly frequently on Latios and Latias.