np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days

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shrang

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This has been tested to be extremely successful in Ubers, but Chansey can use Snatch or Psych Up to steal Calm Minds (Softboiled / Snatch / Seismic Toss / Toxic sounds pretty damn complete) and recovery from opposing setup sweepers (Like SubCM Suicune and stuff), making her pretty unkillable.
 
Snorlax? Eviolite Frillish? Please, they can't even compare. The difference being they can't take hits half as well, while only being able to provide minimal support in return. There are a number of offensive duos out there that can break a Slowbro/Chansey core, you just have to experiment with what works on your team. With a Pokémon like Chansey things are always straight forward, and tailoring a few movesets to work around and set up on Chansey is an easy task. Do I think every team should have atleast 1 Pokémon that can atleast 2HKO Chansey? Yes, a team needs balance to deal with defensive threats, same as always. Chansey, not unlike Blissey, has always stopped the majority of offensive specially-inclined Pokémon cold. As for Heracross being "splashable"? Heracross is one of, if not the most reliable hyper-offensive Pokémon out there. It can fit on virtually any team filling any number of offensive roles.
 

PK Gaming

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I completely agree with FlareBlitz, Chansey is really dumb in this metagame. A well played Chansey (see users: Meru, M Dragon etc) is pretty much impossible to kill without massive entry hazard support or a nuke like Victini.

A not so small list of Pokemon that don't give a fuck about Chansey:


Cobalion: Cannot OHKO Chansey, gets crippled
Heracross: Yeah, yeah CB OHKOes, but Scarf is arguably the best hera set and it can't even kill Chansey at 87% (Chansey takes 71.9% - 84.7% from CC)
Fighting types:Does anyone ever use the other Fighting types?
Sub:CM Cress is absolute trash but i'll give you that, sub hone claws wrecks her
Support Roserade: Agreed
Deo-D: Super agreed. Its part of the reason why I think Deoxys-D is super awesome in BW UU, it sets up on Chansey and curb-stomps it.
Venomoth:Only if it lacks Thunder Wave
Ghosts:Toxic / Thunder Wave ruins you on the switch in.
Mew:Taunt WoW destroys it if you can switch in on the non-status move. Nasty Plot can 2HKO at +2 but it can't exactly switch in.
SubRoost Zapdos:Same as mew, only if Zapdos switches into the non status move
Azelf:+2 Psyshock can 2HKO but Azelf can't exactly switch in. I wouldn't call him a Chansey counter.
Victini:Yeah
Snorlax: Indeed
Togekiss: Air Slash from the Para flinch set does (10.4% - 12.4%) per hit so...


You're assuming that the Chansey user is an idiot. With team preview more than half of these "counters" can't even switch in because of status. With the proper support from the appropriate teammate, Chansey is never going down because there are a ton of pokemon who can cover he weakness. The combination of Mew + Chansey or Slowbro + Chansey walls most of the metagame.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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@specifically the above Cobalion statement: Cobalion Taunts preventing Chansey from healing/statusing, then sets up Swords Dances, +4 with Leftovers rapes stuff.

Worst case scenario, Chansey has STed three times leaving an almost dead Cobalion with Life Orb and +4 attack that then gets to essentially kill/cripple one of your pokemon.

Best case scenario, Chansey attempted to status/heal initially, Cobalion is running Leftovers and thus has ~150ish HP and +4 attack facing a Chansey that has to die or switch to something that then gets killed/crippled. If the opp lacks a pokemon faster than Cobalion/Scarfer its gg.
 
@specifically the above Cobalion statement: Cobalion Taunts preventing Chansey from healing/statusing, then sets up Swords Dances, +4 with Leftovers rapes stuff.

Worst case scenario, Chansey has STed three times leaving an almost dead Cobalion with Life Orb and +4 attack that then gets to essentially kill/cripple one of your pokemon.

Best case scenario, Chansey attempted to status/heal initially, Cobalion is running Leftovers and thus has ~150ish HP and +4 attack facing a Chansey that has to die or switch to something that then gets killed/crippled. If the opp lacks a pokemon faster than Cobalion/Scarfer its gg.
In either case's scenario:
Opponent sent out Hitmontop!
 
OK, just the facts about chansey:

Pros:

..Great Defensive Stats: at max hp/max Def with eviolite se has 704/179/369 (better SpD that Last gen leftover Chansey with all in SpD and way better Def)
..Good Defensive Typing: only one weeknees
..Reliable Recovery: Sofboiled and newly boosted Wishes
..Great supporting movepool: Heal Bell/Aromaterapy, Safeguard, Toxic, T-wave, Stealth Rock, every weather and even sing for sleep, and snatch for set-up sweepers
..She is Cute: she is :3
..She can take strong unboosted/unSTABed SE hits: CC from Banded arcanine is about 72%-84%, FB from SpecsZam is 36%-41%
..She doesn't care about status: Natural cure (as long as T-spikes are out of the field)
..She is NOT alone: Slowbro, Dusclops and Roserade are great companions for Chansey and many pokes can help her to take her weeknesses
..She works outside of stall: Not a common argument but many seem to think that she is only good in stall, well, any sweeper will gladly take those 302 whishes, and most of them will be relieved to have their status removed
..She can easily swich: Unless you Pursuit, she easily swiches out into something she can't take, and unlike swepeers that doesn't make her job harder
..She is a Defensive treath: She does he job is something gets healed, she does her job is something gets paralized/intoxicated, she does her job if your pokes get rid of status, she doesn't want to eliminate your pokes, she might, but that's NOT her job

Plops:

..She LOOOVES her eviolite: without it, it's just like Romeo and Juliet, one goes and the other dies shortly after... (trick, knock off, switcheroo, etc...), too much item dependant
..She's afraid of ghosts: Any good ghost can use her as a set-up fodder by just using a sub (Since ST is her only attack)
..She doesn't like 101 subs: and specially pokes with subs and the possibility of Boost themselves
..She is fairly predictable: Outside of Toxic vs T-wave you don't need to be a phyquic to know what moves she's using
..4MSS: if she wants to wish she needs protect, if she doesn't want to be taunt bait she needs ST, if she wants to status she has to chose between Toxic vs T-wave, then she can´t use Heal Bell without getting rid of one of her moves, if she wants to be different (like use SR or weather) then she has to get rid of more moves
..Taunt: yeah, she doesn't have a way to avoid being taunted so she easily become a set-up fodder to powerful pokes with taunt, and lets her be set-up fodder to any pokes with reliable recovery or something like it
..Enormous HP: WHAT!? how can this be bad?, well, it is bad when you have a boosted Drain Punch from pokes that have a way to boost themselves, the same with Leech seed and to a lesser extent Giga Drain that can heal your foe pokes to their full, not really an enormous con but something should be considered

And again, i don't think she is broken nor say she is not, just pointing out the facts about her, i think if she is broken she should go, BUT i'm against a complex ban like Eviolite + Chansey, if she is the only broken poke in UU with eviolite the so be it and ban the little pink blob, NOT the item+her
..
 
..She LOOOVES her eviolite: without it, it's just like Romeo and Juliet, one goes and the other dies shortly after... (trick, knock off, switcheroo, etc...)

And again, i don't think she is broken nor say she is not, just pointing out the facts about her, i think if she is broken she should go, BUT i'm against a complex ban like Eviolite + Chansey, if she is the only broken poke in UU with eviolite the so be it and ban the little pink blob, NOT the item+her
..
Last gen. no one had a problem with chansey yet it was contraversial for awhile but still manageable...This gen pokes only got better so it would seem like chansey would disappear in the shadows but it stayed one step ahead of the game ONLY thanks to evolite..I can completely agree with you when you say one goes and the other dies shortly after..because none of us would be sitting here agreeing that chansey fits the defensive characteristics if it didnt get evolite
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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In either case's scenario:
Opponent sent out Hitmontop!
Irrelevant, the discussion was about Chansey.

While that's certainly a possibility that gets into team mechanics and other areas not relevant here.

At any rate the Cobalion can simply decide to CC straight off instead of Taunt and the majority of Hitmontop's (all bar near max defenses) get 3HKOed by Close Combat.

But like I said its irrelevant, the point was that one-on-one Cobalion beats/"doesn't give a fuck about" Chansey.
 
There's a few good users of knock off in UU.

only ones I can think of are deoxys-d, donphan, gligar, and tangrowth/tangela. Donphan gets special mention because of its ability to knock off eviolite dusclops and weaken its ability to spinblock.
 

Yuggles

hey that second guy isn't too bad
You realize that Knock Off has been mentioned multiple times, right? And that it's been ignored all those times?

Probably cause it's shit.
With attitudes like this, it's no wonder people are having trouble with so many pokemon in this tier.
 
There's a few good users of knock off in UU.

only ones I can think of are deoxys-d, donphan, gligar, and tangrowth/tangela. Donphan gets special mention because of its ability to knock off eviolite dusclops and weaken its ability to spinblock.
Nearly all those Pokemon have better things to be doing though. For one, I don't see why you'd be running Knock Off on Deoxys-D. Taunt Chansey and move on. Gligar, same shit, Taunt it and walk. Tangrowth is alright, I guess, but it has better things it could be using that moveslot for. Donphan needs all the moveslots it can get with its four-move syndrome. If you force in something like Knock Off (why Chansey would be coming in on Donphan, I'm not too sure) like Ice Shard, Foresight, Assurance, Toxic, etc, etc.
 
I wouldn't say Knock Off is one of the most useful moves in the game but it's not as bad as people are making it out to be.

Also, Chansey fits the defensive characteristic like a glove. It needs to go.
 
Mandibuzz is an awesome knock off-er, she has amazing bulk and whirllwind + roost, knock off is a great move to have since an item-less team is in a huge disadventage against one with them, still, not everyone is likely to find a spot for a move like it
 
Knock off? Didn't see that one coming...But still, chansey isn't really all that hard for me to deal with anymore, thanks to my SD Kabutops. I don't even have that much trouble without him, so I dont why we are still on the topic of Chansey. I think we set a firm ground on banning it, and should move the discussion on.
 

FlareBlitz

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Some of the discussion here is the reason we've never banned anything under the Defensive characteristic. It seems that we automatically discount the "significant portion of the metagame" aspect whenever we talk about any defensive suspect. Yes, you can use Knock Off to beat Chansey, even though Knock Off usually represents an underutilized moveslot at the best of times. Yes, you can switch in Support pokemon with Nature Cure or Aromatherapy and support your team while she supports hers (although I wouldn't consider this "winning"...) But ultimately, you cannot switch in any "counters" to Chansey, because you have to worry about eating a Thunder Wave, or worse, letting her pass a Wish to some teammate that counters your counter.

This is why dealing with Defensive suspects in the same way that we deal with Offensive suspects is fallacious. With an offensive suspect, it makes sense to say "okay, commonly-used pokemon x y and z safely switch into this suspect therefore it's not broken". With a defensive suspect, it doesn't matter that there are Pokemon who are capable of beating it; what matters is whether the suspect itself is capable of switching into a "significant portion" of the metagame with relative impunity and then switching out again after accomplishing something significant (status, spike damage, wish passing, etc). Otherwise, we could drop literally any Pokemon into this tier and have it not meet the Defensive characteristic based on the arguments you guys are posting: "Oh, Giratina-A? 2hko'd by CB Absol, weak to tspikes, can be set up on by Guts fighting types, clearly not broken". Come on.

Anyway, I'm not normally a fan of complex bans, but I think that banning Evolite on Chansey is a pretty good way to go about making it balanced.
 
Why are some people even acting like Chansey with its Eviolite Knocked off is dreadful? I mean, it's still the best special wall in the metagame without Eviolite.
 
This is why dealing with Defensive suspects in the same way that we deal with Offensive suspects is fallacious. With an offensive suspect, it makes sense to say "okay, commonly-used pokemon x y and z safely switch into this suspect therefore it's not broken". With a defensive suspect, it doesn't matter that there are Pokemon who are capable of beating it; what matters is whether the suspect itself is capable of switching into a "significant portion" of the metagame with relative impunity and then switching out again after accomplishing something significant (status, spike damage, wish passing, etc). Otherwise, we could drop literally any Pokemon into this tier and have it not meet the Defensive characteristic based on the arguments you guys are posting: "Oh, Giratina-A? 2hko'd by CB Absol, weak to tspikes, can be set up on by Guts fighting types, clearly not broken". Come on.
Exactly the reason why I said that i people think it should be banned they should see her as a defensive teath, she doens't sweep, she can kill some stuff, but that's not her main job, she is even a toxic staller, a wish passer, or just a pure wall, she has ONE purpose and that is she has the objetive to suppor her team in a way, recovering it, healing status, paralizing oposing pokes, etc... no matter how powerful your poke is, if chansey has done her job she is likely to swich to make your powerful poke set up fodder (interestingly enough the only pokes that ressist both of her status are escadrill and steelix) so you might brought your heracross, now i bring celebi in a predicted CC and phyquic for the OHKO, she SWITCHES, she likes to run, and this is not a 1 vs 1 situation so stop using 1vs1 arguments, they work aainst sweepers since they come and stay, not chansey, that's why defensive treaths are tricky, people just got used to ban offensive bastards (and with their pure power who could argue that stuff like Kyurem is broken since they likely 1vs1 kill most stuff) but against something like chansey (and most defensive treaths by the way) you're againt a whole team which chanse is only a supporting blob (the best at it) that may be to good at the supporting part, she heals, she cures, she spreads status but she doesn't sweep so don't treath her like a sweeper


PS: Chansey's uninvested SpD makes loose a lot of the defensive power that would wall many special pokes
 

Yuggles

hey that second guy isn't too bad
Actually, that'd be Blissey. And without Eviolite, it takes a massive hit to its SpD stat as well. It isn't like Gen IV UU, where you could invest 252 HP | 252 SpD and just call it a day. Now, if you have 252 HP | 252 Def Chansey without Eviolite, it's going to die to something like Calm Mind Raikou that much faster.
Your post gave me a tumor.

1. Blissey isn't in this metagame.
2. People invested at least some Def EVs in Gen 4 Chansey, before the power creep. IIRC I probably gave it max def to almost double its defensive prowess, whereas 252 HP doesn't eally help that much.
3. People run 252 Def / 252 SpDef on Evolite Chansey.
 
Actually many people do run max HP for bigger wishes (and to tank better physical attacks, for example without max hp, CC from heracross does OHKO)
 
I think that a lot of people just maximize Chansey's physical walling potential because she's already very good at walling special attacks, even if the benefit is ~9%.

Also, hell no to combo bans related to Eviolite. It's completely unnecessary.
 

Mario With Lasers

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Last gen. no one had a problem with chansey yet it was contraversial for awhile but still manageable...This gen pokes only got better so it would seem like chansey would disappear in the shadows but it stayed one step ahead of the game ONLY thanks to evolite..I can completely agree with you when you say one goes and the other dies shortly after..because none of us would be sitting here agreeing that chansey fits the defensive characteristics if it didnt get evolite
No one would even bother banning Salamence if it weren't for it learning Outrage in Platinum. Chansey's best set has Eviolite, so that's Chansey being used to its fullest potential, so that's the reason she may or may not get banned. Besides, older generations have no relevance as whether a pokémon is broken or not.

Stop trying to nerf her.
 
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