np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

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why do you even think that smashpass is a broken strategy when its users didn't even hit uu?isn't this a little bit contradictive?
Honestly, because people do have integrity. Top tier users such as Meru and ToF may recognize its power, but a lot of people HATE seeing it and using it, part of the reason Wobbuffet is not used that much, even though it is ridiculous. It is considered a "dirty" strategy (plus, I assume the pretense of drought also played a role in the lack of BP teams last round, AND a poke whose D-tail could actually get through subs with Reflect up).

At first, I thought the issue just might be Espeon. What we have hear is a poke who can not only use Shell smash boost extraordinarily well, but can also BP. What's more, espeon cannot be taunted, Roar/ww, or statused short of toxic spikes or hax. Smeargle can use a mental herb very well too, so my BP team, which is already ranking above 100 and climbing, fights taunt incredibly well (at the cost of not being able to switch as freely with smeargle and co.). However, guts Heracross is just as powerful with an amazing attack stat, and an awesome status absorber with two really good base 120 stabs. And I am sure others are experimenting with other pokes.

I think I am pretty decent, but if someone better took up Smashpassing, and used it to tier, it would get a HELL of a lot more attention. It took the smogon tour to realize that Garchomp's sand veil destroyed a lot more games than many naysayers originally thought.

I agree. I can understand a broken Pokemon not getting in the top 10 on usage or whatever, but SURELY it would actually make it into the tier, if it's actually broken!! Everybody is playing to win, so why aren't people using Smashpass?

And if those Pokemon are getting so little usage, do we truly know enough about them to be banning them?
Do I really need to mention Wobb from gen 3 and 4? I expect with drought gone, usage should increase by a lot.
 

jas61292

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Honestly, because people do have integrity. Top tier users such as Meru and ToF may recognize its power, but a lot of people HATE seeing it and using it, part of the reason Wobbuffet is not used that much, even though it is ridiculous. It is considered a "dirty" strategy (plus, I assume the pretense of drought also played a role in the lack of BP teams last round, AND a poke whose D-tail could actually get through subs with Reflect up).
I'm sorry, but I just find this really funny. Integrity? Maybe... no. Integrity is using a legal team in a Wi-Fi battle where rules are not automatically enforced. Not using a good strategy because you do not like it is not integrity, it is stupidity. A smart player should use the tools available to them to win. And if it really is broken, then they have their fun while they can, and then ban it.

If the Smash Passers were in UU at all, no matter where, I might think differently, but there is no way you can convince me that a strategy is broken, but is not used because people don't like it. If it were a small group of people, maybe, but when you take into account the masses that play here on Smogon, there is no way that a broken strategy would not be abused. And since it is not abused, then that is just additional proof that it is not broken.
 
That's not the main reason though, I used that as another reason.

The primary reason I feel usage was down was the pretense of drought and Kyugem. Kyugem can sub up faster than Smeargle sporing, can d-tail anything away, including MB Espeon, something roar users can't claim, in addition to being not liked.

I only ask you to give the round a bit of a wait. I am not saying this should be quick banned, but I have jumped from 108, to 56th in the games I have played in between this, and the people I beat, most of the time will utter a variation of screw you afterwards.
 

alexwolf

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Honestly, because people do have integrity. Top tier users such as Meru and ToF may recognize its power, but a lot of people HATE seeing it and using it, part of the reason Wobbuffet is not used that much, even though it is ridiculous. It is considered a "dirty" strategy (plus, I assume the pretense of drought also played a role in the lack of BP teams last round, AND a poke whose D-tail could actually get through subs with Reflect up).

At first, I thought the issue just might be Espeon. What we have hear is a poke who can not only use Shell smash boost extraordinarily well, but can also BP. What's more, espeon cannot be taunted, Roar/ww, or statused short of toxic spikes or hax. Smeargle can use a mental herb very well too, so my BP team, which is already ranking above 100 and climbing, fights taunt incredibly well (at the cost of not being able to switch as freely with smeargle and co.). However, guts Heracross is just as powerful with an amazing attack stat, and an awesome status absorber with two really good base 120 stabs. And I am sure others are experimenting with other pokes.

I think I am pretty decent, but if someone better took up Smashpassing, and used it to tier, it would get a HELL of a lot more attention. It took the smogon tour to realize that Garchomp's sand veil destroyed a lot more games than many naysayers originally thought.


Do I really need to mention Wobb from gen 3 and 4? I expect with drought gone, usage should increase by a lot.
while i see your points about smashpass i totally disagree about wobbuffet.
the reason that wobbuffet is not used very much is because it is very difficult to understand its role and its use...
many people try to use it and then they see that wobbuffet is not immortal and he can die in 2 hits,so they just dismiss him.
wobbuffet gives the most immense team support to a team after drizzle and drought but people just fail to use him right.
smash pass on the other hand is pretty straightforward..!
you setup screens whenever you can and then ypu procced to shell smash,sub when the opponents use dragon tail or batton pass when they wall you...
so the 2 cases are not in the same boat really...
 
My only point with wobbafeet was how strong it was, it it saw light play. Otherwise, the two are completely differnt beasts.

I think smashpash might take a hit is espeon left, since normal phazing strategies would work again, but base 115 speed in UU is about as fast as you get. And like deo(s), very few things can stop Azelf from setting up.
 

jas61292

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Wobbs is not used because he is just a mediocre Pokemon right now. At least on PO, where the programming error nerfs encore even more than it should. Add that to the fact that it is almost dead weight if it is your last Pokemon. It can be really useful, but it is not overpowering, at least right now.

And as for Smash Pass, don't get me wrong, it can be a very powerful strategy. However, it is not exactly easy to use. People act like you can just pass to Espeon to fix all the problems with it, but if someone just attacks, Espeon, Smeargle and other important pokemon for a Smash Pass team pretty much just die. In my personal opinion, I consider it more like a slightly better version of more gimmicky strategies like Trick Room Marowak. It can be extremely powerful if used right, but it is too unreliable to be broken.
 
Wobbs is not used because he is just a mediocre Pokemon right now. At least on PO, where the programming error nerfs encore even more than it should. Add that to the fact that it is almost dead weight if it is your last Pokemon. It can be really useful, but it is not overpowering, at least right now.

And as for Smash Pass, don't get me wrong, it can be a very powerful strategy. However, it is not exactly easy to use. People act like you can just pass to Espeon to fix all the problems with it, but if someone just attacks, Espeon, Smeargle and other important pokemon for a Smash Pass team pretty much just die. In my personal opinion, I consider it more like a slightly better version of more gimmicky strategies like Trick Room Marowak. It can be extremely powerful if used right, but it is too unreliable to be broken.

Defintely not as easy as it is attacking...ppl just dont switch to espeon for shits and giggles...if they see a phazer or taunter coming, then espeon's duties are needed..during which case not many strong phazers out there that can easily OHKO espeon either and espeon is decently bulky on the special side..unless that person decides NOT to run Max HP on espeon...
 

jas61292

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Defintely not as easy as it is attacking...ppl just dont switch to espeon for shits and giggles...if they see a phazer or taunter coming, then espeon's duties are needed..during which case not many strong phazers out there that can easily OHKO espeon either and espeon is decently bulky on the special side..unless that person decides NOT to run Max HP on espeon...
Do you know how many Pokemon learn Roar? Tons. Many of which can easily OHKO both a Smasher and an Espeon. Just because the few most common ones may not be able to dosesn't mean they don't exist. Arcanine, Rhyperior, Mamoswine, Houndoom, Drapion, etc. all can both phaze and KO. Espeon can't switch in freely if it is going to be KOd.

And even if you can't OHKO, just doing big damage is good enough. There is such thing as priority for finishing things off.
 

breh

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geez guys what happened to dragon tail

it's not like Smashpass is uncounterable anyway
 
Ok, i was wrong, and really i haven't run into any espeon in the Tier (which is why i though he had moved up), but still, he retains some of the worst defenses for a Shell Smash receiver, seriously he is way more deadly as a BP team supporter, since there is literally nothing that stops him from switching in and out of phazers is a sub is up, there he can actually be unstopable thanks to Stored Power, as a normal pokemon in a SS team, not so much

PS: Most Dragon Tail users can't break a sub
 
Personally, I think Haze is by far the best stat boost removing move out there. It can't be stopped by Espeon or Sub. It's a fantastic, underrated move. And there's some good users out there: Weezing, Milotic, Blastoise, Crobat, Quagsire being the best in UU. Xatu can use it too but I think it's illegal with MM, but that would have been handy with it's immunity to taunt.
 

FlareBlitz

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Honestly, because people do have integrity. Top tier users such as Meru and ToF may recognize its power, but a lot of people HATE seeing it and using it, part of the reason Wobbuffet is not used that much, even though it is ridiculous. It is considered a "dirty" strategy (plus, I assume the pretense of drought also played a role in the lack of BP teams last round, AND a poke whose D-tail could actually get through subs with Reflect up).
While I understand the sentiment, this is a really bad argument. If top players recognize that smash pass is broken, they shouldn't avoid using because of "integrity"; if they do, then it follows that only subpar players will be using smashpass, which makes it very easy for players like me to beat it.

So far, I have lost to smashpass maybe three times (out of over 20 times playing it). That, to me, does not scream "broken". Maybe the problem is that I'm not facing good players - that could very well be the case.

I can understand not using smashpass because it doesn't gel with your style of play...that's the same reason I don't use the fat pink whore. But not using it out of a misplaced sense of integrity is counterproductive imo. Do you really think people would be screaming about staraptor's brokenness if players like me weren't on the ladder putting the fear of it into people? If KinglerNoob644 was the only player who used staraptor, would people think it's broken?
 
Ok, i decide to create a new team from scrath, and does anyone else is seing BP teams everywhere, i mean EVERYWHERE, i just fought 7 out of 10 battle (and one of the other 3 were a shell smash), it might seem like Espeon is kind of breaking BP teams, since the best thing to stop them is phazing, which now, unless you run haze, you can't do anything about it, and it's not like they are easy, unless you carry some heavy sleep talker, smeargle is sporing you, then they get +6 in everything since they are faster an can easily avoid Dragon Tail, and if you roar, then Espeon is on, it's getting really powerful, since some smart teams carry Mime to get pass perish song, making haze the only true counter
 
Ok, i decide to create a new team from scrath, and does anyone else is seing BP teams everywhere, i mean EVERYWHERE, i just fought 7 out of 10 battle (and one of the other 3 were a shell smash), it might seem like Espeon is kind of breaking BP teams, since the best thing to stop them is phazing, which now, unless you run haze, you can't do anything about it, and it's not like they are easy, unless you carry some heavy sleep talker, smeargle is sporing you, then they get +6 in everything since they are faster an can easily avoid Dragon Tail, and if you roar, then Espeon is on, it's getting really powerful, since some smart teams carry Mime to get pass perish song, making haze the only true counter
Yeah, about half the teams I've been facing lately have been baton pass and more than half of them have included Espeon.

I did not think SmashPass was broken before, and I don't really think it is now. Espeon is the problem, in my opinion. It's breaking ShellSmash teams and full baton pass even more so. I really don't see what you can do if you're not running a hazer. You can set up your own mons, but BP teams have a valuable phazer of their own in Mew. I've been using RestTalk Haze Milotic, the meta really wouldn't be bearable with it.

If anyone doesn't think Espeon breaks baton pass, I'd be curious to hear what you're running to deal with it. I recognize that there are competent players not running haze.
 

Bad Ass

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SmashPass has been insanely easy to deal with for me. Crobat Taunts any attempts at Set-up, outspeeds Espeon who can bounce it back, and can U-turn out to Scarf Staraptor who can pretty much OHKO-2HKO everything on the standard BP team. But most of the times Crobat does a clean 6-0.
 
can't outspeed ninjask (which is like the bottom of BP), and staraptor probably being broken itslef doesn't help either

PS: oh yeah, haze is tauntable, which means that even that is not 100% reliable altough it's the closest thing to it
 
Looking at the last voting period and my laddering experience so far this round, here's my contribution to the discussion (I only read this page and the first two, so sorry if I get redundant)
Starraptor: It hurts. It's also incredibly easy to take down- any decent poke carrying a priority move can take down even the scarf set. I'm a fan of Mamoswine's Ice Shard or Arcanine's Extremespeed. That being said, to get into those pokes, you usually have to sack/fodder a poke, and even then they might switch out. Of course, if you've been paying attention, you might be able to predict the switch and blah blah blah. Overall I think it's counterable, and, as mentioned above, a glass cannon. If it switches in on something it can Brave Bird, it most likely will, as choosing Close Combat over it is a risky maneuver for many reasons. That being said, with like 90-95% of all Starraptors being choiced in some way, bringing in a rock or steel type (not Escavalier) on the predicted Brave Bird gives you a chance to set up. It can be safely countered most of the time.
Chansey: I would have to say that it's broken, but like everything else it has counters. I carry Knock Off on my Escavalier, because I can safely switch in on a predicted Toxic (to a special attacker/wall) and hopefully knock off the eviolite. Without eviolite Chansey is toast. Even if the eviolite isn't knocked off, whatever the opponent switches in to take the knock off is hindered by it (unless you've already gotten rid of the item). Chansey is still an insane wall and should just be banned in general for its near impossibility to kill outside of knock off and its ability to disable and cripple would-be threats after laughing off their hits.
SmashPass: What's the big deal? It's a gamble, like Trick Room, and can be broken. If you lose to it, oh well big deal you got owned. It happens- it's Pokemon!
Wob: This thing is a pain in the neck. If it switches in on anything that isn't a mixed attacker or isn't extremely powerful/haxy, it can weather a hit and counter it w/the appropriate move, or lock a set up sweeper into a move and tickle it down, leaving it really vulnerable to Dugtrio or the like. It's just way too powerful when played correctly to be in UU, or even anywhere.
Victini: Easily counterable and frail as all get out. Bulky water and/or pursuit much? Also, if you switch in a bulky water to take the V create, you can either recover it off somehow, or switch in your counter to the predicted switch in. Definitely not broken w/o sun.
Mew: Gosh darn you stupid thing! ALfjasdjklfhasldfhaskdfhasjdf. That's what I think about Mew. Unpredictable, and dangerous however it is used. It's difficult to take down w/no EV investment into bulk, not to mention once its defenses are beefed up with some EVs. While psychic typing is not very good defensively, it still proves to be a HUGE pain when you factor in softboiled. A well played Mew, in most of his many roles, can wreck many of the pokes in UU. Definitely bannable.
Celebi: Meh. Its stats are identical to Mew's, but it has many many more weaknesses, and is no more dangerous than many of the common UU special attackers. It can still annoy you sometimes, but it has so many weaknesses and counters in UU (like Escavalier and Heracross) that it's not bannable.
Definitely glad to see Kyurem and drought gone (though, truth be told, I rarely saw either- maybe one in three or four battles).
The most bannable pokemon in UU is Zapdos. Gosh that thing does NOT belong here. Two weaknesses? One of which (really) only has StoneMiss to use against it, immense natural bulk, access to instant recovery, and a great special attack? StallDos should just go die in a hole somewhere with its impossibility to counter. It laughs at its Stealth Rock weakness, sets up a sub, and roosts back to 100% from behind it, and if a suitable counter (like Raikou, believe it or not) is switched in, switches out to something that can take the hit. With StallDos it's REALLY risky not immediately trying to take it down when you have the chance, so most of the time the damaging move will be used, and can be safely switched into. StallDos can just obliterate almost everything in UU with even mediocre team support, not to mention a great player and good team support. Zapdos is the single most bannable poke in UU right now.
There's my two cents.
 
Haze is an egg move so it is completely legal with Magic Mirror.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was pretty sure female DW Natu is released (appears in pleasant forest after 10,000 pts).
If it is female wouldn't egg moves be legal?
 
If BP teams are really a problem, put a Trick/choice item pokemon on your team. Seriously. Shuts it down pretty much every time.

And I may as well add in my two cents regarding Staraptor. I use two walls, Golbat and Dusclops both at Eviolite, and Staraptor does over 50% to both of them, AND outspeeds! It is ridiculously powerful. Only reason I'm able to combat it is my scarfed electric type.

Also, with boosts going all over the place, check out the thread I just started
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3449262
which is really about another way to combat the UU metagame as I see it.
 
Ambipom is not going to land a hit after shell smash, besides fake-out. Your either going to have to sac ambipom, or sac something else.
Wait what? I was referring to how people use Azelf leads. Ambipom can Fake Out to do some damage on Azelf, then Taunt, Double Hit or U-turn. ._."

That was kind of my point. At base 115 speed, azelf is one of, if not, the fasted taunter in the game, tied with Ambipom. And the only pokes that could do the job faster with MH (prankster) in UU are Contonnee, Sableye (if it is released), and Murkrow. I hate all 3, the first for being unable to touch grass type, the middle for being fragile as fuck, and the latter, for more or less the same thing, even with evolite, but now add a SR weakness.

So, it is infinitly easy to set up screens, Smashpass to espeon, and coast, since I can't be phazed out. I even now carry a silver bullet for Milotic, so the only poke that scared my team is staraptor, if I can't win the speed tie (may even switch mine to a scarf, just to ensure I can).
the entire point was about Misdreavus not having Prankster for its DW ability. You misunderstood me apparently.

also, for Trick, BP teams are prolly gonna be carrying Substitute half the time, so you need to smash the sub first then switch in your Trick user. And worse, you have to pray that your +1 whatever can outspeed my +2 whatever, and Choice Scarf just makes things worse actually since its now a lot harder to revenge.

(for the record though Mr. Mime is really gen 3... I haven't seen a single smashpass team using Mr. Mime)
 

Bad Ass

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Some thoughts on Suspects and controversial Pokemon.

Mew - Really not broken. The SD set is definitely the most deadly, but even at that it just hasn't impressed me. Maybe if I saw more well-played SD sets, I might have a change of heart. Other than that, Nasty Plot can't toss around Sucker Punch to KO would-be revengers in Staraptor and Victini and the like. Oh, also, SD is not "worse than" Celebi, but Celebi can set up whatever on Waters and OHKO Slowbro. Just saying. Stallbreaker Mew is deadly as always. I hate those fast ones that carry Psychic, because Crobat can't Taunt them effectively. I still think this one is UU, but I'm on the fence.

Staraptor - Broken. Reckless Brave Bird almost 2HKOs 252/252+ Slowbro. With a Scarf. That means that he can outspeed and 2HKO just about everything less defensively inclined than Slowbro. Which is everything. Choice Band guarantees a couple of kills per match, and SubRoost means that even Slowbro can't stand up to it. But it also doesn't have to predict. Stealth Rock is so easy to spin away with Donphan, or prevent with a Magic Bouncer. It's ridiculous. If Slowbro got 2HKOd by Adamant Scarf...I don't know what I'd do. BL.

Chansey - I don't see what the hassle is with these things, they are SO easy to wear down. It doesn't get Leftovers, so just U-turn to a Taunter or something that is mildly threatening to Chansey and your problem is solved. I may be biased since Crobat shuts this down 100%, but I have seriously had 0 problems. Hell, sometimes I even Scald until I burn. Then it is easy to kill. UU

Wobbuffett - asdfadkfasd I hate this thing. It can take a hit from almost anything and CounterCoat back for a KO, the fast set can remove any wall that you have, and even 2 or 3 if it Encores a healing move and doesn't take a lot of damage. It renders Scarfmons useless, because they can't break it. Tickle Wobb + Pursuit / Dugtrio is broken. Wobb needs to go. BL

Victini - The only thing that is mildly threatening is Mixed + Spikes, that can 2HKO Slowbro. Other than that, Choice is so easy to predict around. UU.

Some stuff that I think should be looked at:

Zapdos - This thing is pretty hard to kill. Be it SubRoost just being a dick, or 3 Attack 2HKOing everything (Thunderbolt for waters, Heat Wave for the grasses, a Hidden Power of choice for whatever, Roost, along with 328 speed and 349 satk...yes please!!), it is super hard to deal with. 3 Atk is definitely the worst to deal with, though I have been using Scarf Zapdos to surprising effect. It's really good, and I suggest that you don't try it out because I'm weak to it :(

Honchkrow - Yeah, as crazy as I probably sound (about as crazy as reach nomming snorlax lol), Honchrow is strong as HELL. Sub / Roost / BB / SP tears all non-Rocks / Steels a new one, gets an Attack boost every time it gets a kill, and can throw up 101 subs. However, subbing HP Grass for substitute shaves off even more counters to this bad boy. Really, the only things that can take it with SR down are Zapdos (with smart play), Empoleon, Registeel, and playing around it. Standard Superpower Krow takes all of his counters, eats them, and them stomps on them, pulls them out of his stomach, and eats them again. Except Zapdos. Roost is ridiculously easy to pull off due to the sheer number of switches this guy causes. Try him out today. ps he can 2ko donphan and stuff

Stuff that is just awesome

Porygon-Z - Man oh man this thing is GREAT. Thunderbolt / Tri Attack / Agility / Ice Beam tears apart so many teams. If you don't feel comfortable with Download, just use Adaptability to get double STAB tri attacks off of 405 special attack and a Life Orb. Only thing that you have to do is remove Hitmontop and CB Mamo/Arcanine. Crobat works great with this. Most people swap in Donphan or Rhyperior on Crobat. Simply predict the switch and U-turn to PZ and get a download boost. Now they are facing a sure OHKO. They can't let it die, because then Crobat will sweep them. Just Agility and have fun sweeping with 600 Satk boosted by LO. Or just toss around LO Adaptability Tri Attacks and soften up the team, Agilitying if possible. This is a great underrated threat.

Crobat - Just as good as it was last gen. Only thing that really hurt it was Scald...just pair it with a Grass type, you need one for Rhyperior and Donphan anyway. It's also the best check for SmashPass ever...BB + BB 2hkos Espy even if it Reflects after BB 1. 279 attack BBs are still strong as hell. It enjoys all of the Grass types in the tier, and is just a great all around check. U-turn is an amazing momentum move, and Taunt shuts stall down.

also there are so many birds and they are all good ffs
 
I might run Nasty Plot Weaville just to deal with those Wobbuffets >:D

Also, Froslass is the most annoying Pokemon in the metagame apart from maybe Roserade. Neither are broken at all, but they are comfortably the best spikers/toxic spiker in the metagame if you're looking for some. I've also lost on more than one occassion due to Snow Cloak hax :(

The Froslass Sub+Spikes set is great though. Your common spinners in UU are:
- Donphan: obviously loses to Froslass
- Hitmontop: sub to scout for Pursuit/Sucker Punch - can be a bit problematic for Froslass, but that's the mind games Froslass is so good for.
- Claydol: obviously loses to Froslass
- Blastoise: basically lets Froslass get up at least 2 layers of Spikes
- Cryogonal: Set up fodder for Froslass, although they can't do much to each other in terms of offence.

I think the set I'm talking about is this:
Sub; Destiny Bond/Shadow Ball/Taunt; Ice Beam; Spikes
 
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