np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

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DetroitLolcat

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If it isn't good in Uber, that doesn't mean it is allowed in OU. We didn't say it deserves a test because it is bad in Uber

With a 4x resistance to Fighting, the most common type in the tier, with its BST as 390, and I only used it's defenses. This sentence is both grammatically and logically incorrect. Its BST is 680 and its defenses are good. Kyurem has a good BST too, and it's rotting in BL.

Also, it speed ties with Gengar, and outspeeds everyone under a base 110 Speed Stat. Electrode is fast too, doesn't make it Uber

People here are thinking that its bad in Uber, but think of the impact it will have on OU. Skarmory will be completely outclassed, and will go down to OU. That doesn't matter. If Lugia's presence in OU makes Skarm drop, boo hoo for Skarmory. Infernape made Blaziken go to UU last gen, it didn't mean Infernape was broken

That means a domino effect will be in order and then most Physical attackers in UU will go down to RU. No, it probably means Skarmory will go to BL. And the fact that Lugia will shake up the other tiers is irrelevant. If Lugia belongs in OU, then the other tiers have to deal with it.

Regardless of it's typing, Lugia has amazing stats, Flying-Type STAB, CM, 154 SDef. Flying STAB is nice, but that 90 Special Attack is bad. Tyranitar walls it, Blissey destroys it, Lugia can't Taunt, etc.

Another thing is that Blissey will be overpowered, as now it will be something like Lugey (Lugia + Blissey). This sentence makes no sense.

The worst part is, that most of the moves that will to super-effective damage to him will do nothing, as Ghost- and Dark- type moves are mostly special attackers. Crunch? Ghost moves are usually Special, but Dark moves are physical.

Plus, if Drizzle gets banned, it doesn't need to worry about Thunder, so how would Lugia be OU material, as it is waaaaaaay to overpowered in that sense, even if it is "horrible" in Uber. But Drizzle isn't banned. We have to consider THIS metagame, not a possible future one.

Even in Uber it is still good, as not many moves will OHKO it.
Not many moves KO Cresselia, should we ban Cressy too?
 
People here are thinking that its bad in Uber, but think of the impact it will have on OU. Skarmory will be completely outclassed, and will go down to OU.
Ummmm, have you played Ubers? Skarmory is used even with Lugia in the tier, as it has Spikes, which is generally very useful. Also, it is neutral to Rock Moves, which is also very useful. Also, Lugia is hardly bad in Ubers -_______- it's like the best mixed wall in Ubers.
 

ginganinja

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ffs stop saying 90 SpA is bad. Politoed, Suicune and Virizion all have 90 SpA and it does not stop people using them as sweepers. It outspeeds most of the tier, can threaten a sweep with Calm Mind, be a bitch with Sub Roost or just straight up wall things to kingdom come.

nitpicking but

Electrode is fast too, doesn't make it Uber
Lol do not fucking bother comparing the two.

Lugia pretty much takes Electrodes stats and doubles them except for Speed and SpA. Even then it hits harder than Electrode and is predominately thought of as a wall.
 
I never said it was horrible, I just recall reading posts saying that it wasn't good in Ubers anymore.
I also recall some posts before saying that but I also recall several other posts noting just how untrue this is - especially with its DW ability (once that is released). There were also posts about bringing down Ho-oh but that's really just as absurd as Lugia as both still perform their roles quite well in ubers - in case you haven't noticed Lugia is always a standard in damage calculations at ubers precisely because he's the bench mark wall and that is certainly saying a lot considering how hard things hit there.
 
We didn't say it deserves a test because it is bad in Uber
This is good, because anyone who says Lugia is bad in Ubers has never played the metagame.

Flying STAB is nice, but that 90 Special Attack is bad. Tyranitar walls it, Blissey destroys it, Lugia can't Taunt, etc.
Stop pretending that 90 SpA is bad. You don't see anyone whining about Virizion's lack of offensive power. And since Lugia can set the match to its own pace and boost up to +6, it will be hitting much harder than your average base 90. CM / Roost / Aeroblast / Earth Power allows Lugia to sweep nearly all of OU.

Crunch? Ghost moves are usually Special, but Dark moves are physical.
There is only one dark move Lugia cares about outside of Ubers, and that is CB Tyranitar's Crunch. Otherwise, it will shrug off the hit and simply KO the user, especially if it is unSTABed. Gengar, Chandelure, and NP Mismagius are the only three ghosts that even remotely threaten Lugia with Shadow Ball, as the others are just too weak. And of course the latter two are outsped regardless.

But Drizzle isn't banned. We have to consider THIS metagame, not a possible future one.
Even if we do, this isn't Ubers where Thunder > Thunderbolt by default. The reason for that is because Kyogre is literally the metagame itself, so odds are you will be able to use Thunder effectively in at least half of your matches (and many users of Thunder carry moves that are hella strong regardless of weather). In OU, Sand is by far more common, meaning that if you run Thunder in the hopes of catching a Lugia in the rain, it will backfire more often than not.

Not many moves KO Cresselia, should we ban Cressy too?
Lugia has reliable recovery, Lugia can set up in your face, Lugia can pressure stall. Cresselia can do none of those things with anywhere near the same level of effectiveness.
 
Manaphy – Uber OR OU?

Should Manaphy be Uber or OU with Drizzle expelled from the OU Metagame?

I don’t think anyone has done a good enough evaluation on the matter for us to be convinced either way. Therefore I’ve decided to write one myself which will hopefully help us come to a conclusion.

Note: I will show both sides of the argument and my opinion is not biased because I haven’t made up my mind about it as of yet.


Argument FOR Manaphy:

Manaphys base stats resemble those who are OU/UU (Celebi/Jirachi/Shaymin/Victini) – Base 100 in all stats. Whilst base 100 in speed is nice, it’s not as high as most OU sweepers. It is great as a late game sweeper but not for early on in the match as it can easily be outran and killed. Whereas, if used as a support Pokemon, it lacks a decent recovery move and its ability is useless unless on a rain team. Manaphy also fails to kill counters such as Ferrothorn and if it runs Hp-Fire instead of Electric, it loses out coverage on Jellicent, Tentacruel and other water walls.

Argument AGAINST Manaphy:

Whilst its base stats resemble those found in OU/UU, Manaphy by far has the best typing of the lot (the rest being weak to common OU threats.) Base 100 speed may not be high as most sweepers, but with tail glow being +3sp.att Manaphy can pretty much sweep anything slower aside from specific counters. Its pure water typing also means that Manaphy is not priority weak. As a support Pokemon it lacks a decent recovery move but this doesn’t stop Pokemon like Jirachi from doing its job. Its ability is useless without rain present but let’s not forgot a large number of Pokemon’s abilities have certain conditions, such as the Flame Body on Volcarona only burns 30% of the time on physical contact, but none the less this does not hinder its ability to sweep. Whilst Manaphy may fail against Ferrothorn and Blissey, it can pretty much kill every other wall in the OU Metagame. Two effective counters is not a good enough reason to keep something in OU (this can actually be applied to other Pokemon in my opinion *cough* Latios and Excadrill). Manaphy was Uber last gen and now gets an even more powerful Tailglow this gen. Anyway, let’s look at Manaphys capability as a sweeper to help us decide.


Statistics: (Edited)

Manaphy + Tailglow + LO Timid Nature:

Celebi Calm Max HP/Sp.def – Icebeam:
971 Atk vs 328 Def & 404 HP (95 Base Power): 404 - 476 (100.00% - 117.82)

Brongzong Careful Max Hp/Sp.def – Surf:
971 Atk vs 364 Def & 338 HP (95 Base Power): 271 - 321 (80.18% - 94.97%)

Jellicent Calm Max HP/Sp.def – HP Electric:
971 Atk vs 339 Def & 404 HP (70 Base Power): 288 - 340 (71.29% - 84.16%)

Tentacruel Calm Max Hp/Sp.def – HP Electric:
971 Atk vs 372 Def & 361 HP (70 Base Power): 262 - 310 (72.58% - 85.87%)

Deoxys–D Calm Max Hp/Sp.def – Surf:
971 Atk vs 460 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 216 - 255 (71.05% - 83.88%)


Conclusion:

If Manaphy’s Tail Glow had been + 2 sp.att like last gen, I would have probably made up my mind rather quickly, with no doubt about it. The extra +1 in Tail Glow may not seem like much at first glance, but statistics wise it makes a major difference. Add that to all the points I’ve made about Manaphy in the ‘against argument’, I’ve come to the conclusion that I would not like to see this Pokemon in OU. Whether you agree or not it’s your decision.
 
^ that calc is flawed

+ 3 isnt THAt big.

299 + + 2 = 598.
299 + + 1 = 448,5

299 + + 3 = 786

Now 786 + 30%*786 = 1021

besides example for damage

Against same celebi with ice beam:

99.5% - 117.3%

Not much different but yeah
 
I never had any doubt that even if Drizzle is banned, Tail Glow Manaphy would still be too powerful. I played when Manaphy was still allowed, and every time I face one, all I could think of doing was sending out all my pokemon out one by one (most at full health) and try to see which of them can take one hit. Seeing the calcs given by Rosey explains how my Specially Defensive Bronzong never even got the chance. I agree, Manaphy should stay out of OU.

And yeah, as JSND said, the calcs are wrong. For example:
Manaphy +3SpA + LO Surf vs Bronzong Careful Max Hp/Sp.def: 80.2% - 95%
But even the, while its raining:
Manaphy +3SpA + LO Surf (in rain) vs Bronzong Careful Max Hp/Sp.def: 120.1% - 141.4%
That's still just crazy, and all for one turn of set-up!
 

shrang

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People who are proposing to test Lugia in OU, please tell what you intend on using to kill this:

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Nature: Impish
- Substitute / Reflect
- Roost
- Toxic
- Dragon Tail

Precisely what trickroom uses in Ubers (Just read his Drown All RMT). Just for the record, if Lugia uses Reflect, CB Tyranitar is doing 33.65% - 40.38% with Crunch, which means he can just Roost off the damage, Toxic your Tyranitar and watch you die painfully, unless you get a Defense drop in the middle, in which point you're not going to live long anyway (and Lugia can just switch out).

Or this:

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Aeroblast
 
@JSND

Edit: Nvm, you're right I've made an error. I've done x3 instead of (1/2 of base + x2 of base) + LO

I'll fix my calculations.
 
Tail Glow is +3, meaning it's *5/2 (or x2.5), IIRC.

So 299*2.5*1.3 = 971.75 (floor makes it 971, methinks.)

...Which would make both wrong. Have I missed something too? o_O

Edit: Right, 328 SpA, so it comes out at 1066.
 
wait, is tail glow not times 3?

so it would be 299*3 = 897 *1.3 (LO) = 1166?

or is it not the same as a Pokemon using nasty plot/ SD (x2) ?

I'm not familiar with Tail Glow seeing as only Manaphy and Volbeat use it,
so I could be off...

Can someone confirm what JSND has said, so that I can fix my calculations if they are wrong.
+1 = x1.5
+2 = x2.0
+3 = x2.5

Every boost is worth an additional x0.5. +4 is x3.
 
People who are proposing to test Lugia in OU, please tell what you intend on using to kill this:
Off the top of my head... the first set might be handled by Gengar. Possibly Starmie. And Thundurus, who in my opinion needs to GTFO anyhow. Of course that's me assuming Reflect and/or it doesn't have a sub up.

Of course, this doesn't mean that Lugia isn't borked. Offensive CM Lugia will wreak all sorts of havoc. 90 SpA isn't bad when you can easily get to +6 and have nice coverage in two moves, one of them a powerful 100 BP STAB with chance of crit.

Seriously, people are already annoyed with Reuniclus, but this thing is much, much worse. Pressure stalling, arguably better STAB, more reliable coverage and more bulk and speed. I don't want Reuniclus banned (though sadly I don't have a say in it) but Lugia in OU is just ridiculous.

Besides: What is OU gonna do with a Lugia/Blissey core? Or, Lugia/Chansey for that matter?
 
@ the Manaphy thing;
Manaphy w/o Drizzle is honestly not even as good as Mew or any other of our little 100's.

As a boosting sweeper, Manaphy can go to +3, and Mew can only go to +2. However, Manaphy has to resort to things like Energy Ball and Shadow Ball for coverage, while Mew can use things like Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Aura Sphere. etc; meaning that Mew's coverage moves will often about as strong even when Manaphy has one more boost than Mew does.

They both have CM, but Mew can heal itself with Roost to get more CM's in. For Manaphy to heal itself, it needs 2 moveslots (RD and Rest), leaving it unable to get as good coverage. Or Manaphy can just not heal itself, but then it lacks an ability which Mew has.

And let's face it, Manaphy probably wouldn't run a Defensive set very well. It just doesn't have the movepool for it.
Manaphy may have better typing than Mew, but Jirachi has arguably better typing than Manaphy. Jirachi can support the team more, with Wish and paralysis support.

I want someone to show me evidence (or very good reasoning) of why Manaphy would possibly even be close to being too strong in a Drizzle-less OU.
 
Off the top of my head... the first set might be handled by Gengar. Possibly Starmie. And Thundurus, who in my opinion needs to GTFO anyhow. Of course that's me assuming Reflect and/or it doesn't have a sub up.
Uh with 154 SpD Lugia won't be going down to some Thunder/Shadow ball that easily - especially with investment. Even worse if it already has a CM under its belt - could easily OHKO Gengar and Starmie just fragile Thundurus would be a different story but in the end would be better off doing a Thunderwave if Lugia isn't behind some sub before it gets KOed all three pokemon are pretty frail so that 90 SpA will hurt.
 
People who are proposing to test Lugia in OU, please tell what you intend on using to kill this:

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Nature: Impish
- Substitute / Reflect
- Roost
- Toxic
- Dragon Tail

Precisely what trickroom uses in Ubers (Just read his Drown All RMT). Just for the record, if Lugia uses Reflect, CB Tyranitar is doing 33.65% - 40.38% with Crunch, which means he can just Roost off the damage, Toxic your Tyranitar and watch you die painfully, unless you get a Defense drop in the middle, in which point you're not going to live long anyway (and Lugia can just switch out).

Or this:

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Aeroblast
Seems like the first set can't really kill any Steels though, with them being immune to poison and resistant to dragon.
 
Seems like the first set can't really kill any Steels though, with them being immune to poison and resistant to dragon.
That set isn't supposed to be killing. It's a Pressure Stall, from the looks of things, and one that works hideously well. I can't see many Steel types lasting for long enough against that to break all of the Subs it can set up and still have anything left to throw at it afterwards.
 
Manaphy can be a new SleepTalk Suicune with 15 less in defenses +10 in spa, +15 in speed and the opportunity to sweep without luck factor (costing a turn for casting rain dance).

Sounds good and interessing.
 
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