Would you still play in Smogon's OU Metagame if Stealth Rock was banned?

[Boarbaque]

I ask you this and I bet you will ask me the stereotypical questions regarding Stealth Rocks. Here is my attempt to answer them:

Why ban Stealth Rocks?
It overcentralizes the metagame. It is used on nearly every team, and the move itself is (just an educated guess) used more than every other move in the game, or at least in the top 5. It forces you to pack a Rapid Spinner as well, which takes up a moveslot.

You are just QQing because you can't use certain pokemon because of it, right?
Yes, yes I am and there is nothing wrong with that. Its ridiculous that one move, and not even a pokemon, makes several upon several good pokemon completely hindered from the get go, which goes back into the forcing me to carry a rapid spinner.

Why only ban Stealth Rocks, and not Spikes and Toxic Spikes?
With Spikes and Toxic Spikes, the original entry hazards, you had to set up several layers of them for them to be as useful and as potent as you wanted them to be. With Stealth Rocks you only have to set it up once. Spikes and Toxic Spikes also do not have a type equation. Although it is nice that if you resist rock types that Stealth Rocks does slightly less, but if you happen to be weak to rock you take a large amount of damage in comparison to resisting it.

There is still Rapid Spin and Defog (for doubles)...
Defog is counter productive because it removes everything on the side of the field of the target, which includes your own entry hazards. Rapid Spin can be completely resisted by what is known as Spin Blocking with Ghost pokemon. Pokemon with Levitate can also dodge Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and Steel pokemon can resist Toxic Spikes completely, BUT there is no way to be completely immune to Stealth Rocks.

Stealth Rocks isn't that great of a move, you are just being overdramatic.
Stealth Rocks IS a fantastic move. Its so fantastic that its a staple on nearly every team and most people see you as a fool for not running it or not running a way to combat it. It overcentralizes the metagame. In my opinion, anything that overcentralizes the metagame is too useful and too powerful that it should be banned whether that be a move, ability (Perma-Weather) or pokemon.

Honestly I think that there would be a lot more strategies in play and a lot more variety in the pokemon used if Stealth Rocks was banned. Its just way too damn useful to the point where it forces you to adjust your teams just to counter one move that can be on a variety of pokemon.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Please add this option to the poll: I do not want it banned.

 

[stephenjm]

^Agreed

 

[Tyranitarphantom]

Please add this option to the poll: I do not want it banned.

Agreeing with this.

Also, the move is called Stealth Rock, not Stealth Rocks

So yeah, anyone who says Stealth Rock isn't an important part of the metagame is ignorant. But it's not like you're forced to use it, and you're not forced to run a spinner or other method of stopping them (Magic Bounce/Coat, Taunt, etc.). It would be nice to be able to use certain rock-weak Pokemon without worrying about Stealth Rock, but it really doesn't have a detrimental effect on the game. Stealth Rock also doesn't make anything broken, so I see no reason to ban it.

 

[133k]

I never understood these arguments. You have a total of 24 moveslots on a team; you're telling me you can't pick one poke that learns rapid spin and dedicate one (1) moveslot to it? People pretend that if something learns Rapid Spin, that's all it's good for, which is very false (Case and point: Starmie, Blastoise, Donphan, Claydol, Hitmontop, etc).

 

[ARandomDude]

I know of no move called Stealth Rocks.

Why do people continuously get this wrong.

EDIT: Also ban Earthquake because in the long run it probably deals more damage than Stealth Rock and its a top 5 move and is centralizing. See what I did there.

 

[flashkickass]

really? i would not like it banned. it helps keep things in check. ya it hurts moltres, charizard, volcarona, but its not hard to play around and they need something to stop them especially volcarona.
stealth rock actually isn't that common anymore. i see toxic spikes and spikes way more often.

 

[Woodchuck]

Yes, yes I am and there is nothing wrong with that. Its ridiculous that one move, and not even a pokemon, makes several upon several good pokemon completely hindered from the get go, which goes back into the forcing me to carry a rapid spinner.

Its ridiculous that one move, ice shard, and not even a pokemon, makes several upon several good dragon-types completely hindered from the get go, which goes back into the forcing me to carry an ice resist.

 

[Prince Arceus]

but if stealth rocks were banned, then it would make the metagame unfair to everyone who doesn't use fire or flying types!
We hate fire types!
We hate flying types!
Our ground type sand teams cant hit flying types!

 

[Aura Guardian]

I ask you this and I bet you will ask me the stereotypical questions regarding Stealth Rocks. Here is my attempt to answer them:

Ok.

Why ban Stealth Rocks?
It overcentralizes the metagame. It is used on nearly every team, and the move itself is (just an educated guess) used more than every other move in the game, or at least in the top 5. It forces you to pack a Rapid Spinner as well, which takes up a moveslot.

Wrong. You are NOT forced to run Rapid Spin. You can run a team that resists Stealth Rock for the most part and/or has recovery. Leftovers exist for a reason.

You are just QQing because you can't use certain pokemon because of it, right?
Yes, yes I am and there is nothing wrong with that. Its ridiculous that one move, and not even a pokemon, makes several upon several good pokemon completely hindered from the get go, which goes back into the forcing me to carry a rapid spinner.

I believe that is the point of almost every competitive move in the game. And again, not forced to carry a spinner. Also, if the move was that powerful, why is Volcarona, who takes 50% from it, in the upper half of OU and not deep in RU? Obviously, the move is not so destructive as your answer seems to be implying.

Why only ban Stealth Rocks, and not Spikes and Toxic Spikes?
With Spikes and Toxic Spikes, the original entry hazards, you had to set up several layers of them for them to be as useful and as potent as you wanted them to be. With Stealth Rocks you only have to set it up once. Spikes and Toxic Spikes also do not have a type equation. Although it is nice that if you resist rock types that Stealth Rocks does slightly less, but if you happen to be weak to rock you take a large amount of damage in comparison to resisting it.

Toxic Spikes hinder all non-Levitating, non-Steel/Flying/Poison types, just as SR hinders Fire, Flying, Ice, and Bug types (I might have forgotten a type there, too lazy to check). Spikes

There is still Rapid Spin and Defog (for doubles)...
Defog is counter productive because it removes everything on the side of the field of the target, which includes your own entry hazards. Rapid Spin can be completely resisted by what is known as Spin Blocking with Ghost pokemon. Pokemon with Levitate can also dodge Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and Steel pokemon can resist Toxic Spikes completely, BUT there is no way to be completely immune to Stealth Rocks.

Ghost types: Bait for a Pursuit or Crunch. A team =/= one Pokemon. Also, there is a way. It is called "Magic Guard".

Stealth Rocks isn't that great of a move, you are just being overdramatic.
Stealth Rocks IS a fantastic move. Its so fantastic that its a staple on nearly every team and most people see you as a fool for not running it or not running a way to combat it. It overcentralizes the metagame. In my opinion, anything that overcentralizes the metagame is too useful and too powerful that it should be banned whether that be a move, ability (Perma-Weather) or pokemon.

Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Surf, Scald, Recover, Earthquake, Close Combat, Superpower, ... the list goes on. They centralize, too. Why not ban all Dragon attacks because only one thing resists them? They are way too powerful, especially Draco Meteor and Outrage. Answer: They are part of the game, and not, say, OHKO with 100% accuracy.

Honestly I think that there would be a lot more strategies in play and a lot more variety in the pokemon used if Stealth Rocks was banned. Its just way too damn useful to the point where it forces you to adjust your teams just to counter one move that can be on a variety of pokemon.

See above. Also, more strategies? Yeah, and what about the strategies that rely on SR? You'd be replacing strategies, not adding new ones. And variety? We have that. Look at the stats, there's plenty of evidence for variety. Also, useful? That's sort of why it's used... just like Draco Meteor, Crunch, Dragon Dance, Spikes, Leech Seed ... Speaking of Leech Seed, it forces you to either have something that forces out the Leech Seeder, has U-Turn, has Magic Guard, has Liquid Ooze, has Rapid Spin, or is a Ghost Type. How is that different? Answer: not very.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Espeon is a good answer to stealth rock. However, because of team preview he can't be used effectively. If there was a metagame that didn't use team preview, espeon may have an easier time switching in as people wouldn't expect him to.

 

[KurashiDragon]

I really wouldn't care 2 ways if Stealth Rock is banned but stealth rock is actually good for the metagame. It actually helps alot of things get easily checked. Can you imagine if Dragonite could switch in and have it's Multi Scale active every time it doesn't switch into an attacking move? How about if Volcarona switches in unhindered to set up? What if Salamence could switch in like that?

I personally think Stealth Rock stops alot of things from being broken. It's certainly useful to the metagame. It also hinders alot of things though. Moltres, Charizard and Drought are a few examples.

 

[KokoaKiwi]

Holy shit, I'd LOVE a SR-free metagame. 100% do want.

 

[verbatim]

Personally I want it gone but to be honest it is not going to happen.
I may not have been around for all of 4th gen, but from what I can piece together it is not as effective as it was then, and if it wasn't banned by smogon then, I don't think it will be banned now.

 

[Chameleon]

Sometimes I hate what Stealth Rock does to type variety, but I'm leaning against eliminating it. It's part of the game and can be worked around, and arguably SR is just as much a part of a natural metagame as is permaweather. Seeing it gone in the lower tiers might be interesting.

I'd like to defend some of Boarbeque's points, though.

Can you imagine if Dragonite could switch in and have it's Multi Scale active every time it doesn't switch into an attacking move? How about if Volcarona switches in unhindered to set up? What if Salamence could switch in like that?

Some Pokemon which could become overpowered are of concern, but I wonder what the secondary effects of no SR would be. For example, no SR makes Dragons more threatening, but it also makes Ice types easier to use and thus it easier to take dragons down, and maybe even help solve our Garchomp issues (more Ice Sharders will not make them terrible). Similarly, what type resists both of Volcarona's STABs? Fire. But a major reason nobody wants to use defensive Fire types is because they're weak to Stealth Rock. Flyers also are bad for Volcarona. Sure, Stealth Rock will power up some strong attackers, but it can power up counters and defensive Pokemon as well.

On a side note, less stealth rock -> likely more hail. Good or bad?...

 

[Afti]

In Generation IV, I'd have been all for this; I believe that SR did have an unhealthy effect on that metagame.

But in V? It's harder to use with things like Espeon running around, has far less distribution (ex: in IV, Mienshao would likely have it and that'd be REALLY REALLY SCARY; not so in V, most of the new Pokémon have no access to SR at all, and those that get it from IV can't use new egg moves or DW abilities, meaning that, say, Gliscor doesn't use it anymore), and with new Pokémon like Volcarona and the new-and-improved Dragonite running around actually plays an important role in maintaining the stability of the metagame.

 

[Tortferngatr]

...Is this a parody of the permaweather arguments?

Voted "I'd move to another server."

 

[Woodchuck]

Ice Shard hinders Dragons, but reasonably. Ice Shard does not make Dragons horrible. Stealth Rock makes a lot of Pokemon really bad, or enough so to keep them out of OU by itself. Does Ice Shard discourage you from using Garchomp as much as Stealth Rock discourages you from using Yanmega, for example? Not to mention attacks can only be used when a Pokemon who knows it is out, while Stealth Rock is always there.

But Ice Shard will OHKO Yache-less Garchomp, so basically it forces Garchomp to run an item.
Stealth Rock forces you to lead with Yanmega OR carry a spinner/magic mirror-er.
Or run Leftovers + Protect to 1) take advantage of speed boost and 2) recover that lost health.
Also, do you really believe that Garchomp wouldn't be better than Yanmega anyways in a Stealth Rock-less metagame?
Stealth Rock can be counteracted at any time by a Rapid Spinner. You can't delete Ice Shard off your foe's Mamoswine just because you have a Claydol.
Also, Stealth Rock doesn't make all pokemon 4x weak to it horrible by itself. For example. Volcarona is still top-20 OU despite being 4x weak to Stealth Rock (AND getting hurt by other hazards).

To go through other 4x-weaks:

Charizard isn't that great of a pokemon with its average base 100 speed and 109 SpA being its one other notable stat. Honestly, isn't Infernape better?

Articuno is Ice/Flying. Even without Stealth Rock, Ice is still a bad defensive typing, and Articuno isn't as good as its bird brethren at attacking.

Volcarona is arguably being kept OU as opposed to Ubers thanks to Stealth Rock.

Ninjask is a lead and doesn't need a whole lot of bulk anyways.

Yanmega is nerfed and the main problem it has with that is dying to priority. But it's still countered by Sp. Def. Scizor and dies to Ice Shard.

Moltres Actually, it would be kinda cool to use Moltres in an SR-less environment <3 Moltres is already solid UU and could fill a neat stalling role on Sun teams. (However, Zapdos is UU so idk about how much Moltres would improve)

Butterfree Screw Butterfree.

It would be kind of neat to have a hazards-less tier separate from OU (perhaps combined with a Clear Skies tier) so that we'd see some different pokemon shine, but I don't really believe that Stealth Rock should be banned from the actual OU tier. This discussion has come up time and time again and somehow Stealth Rock is never voted suspect (or even nominated?)
Still the best chance SR-haters have is to "join forces" with the weather haters. lol.

Still, I don't really believe Stealth Rock has that negative of an impact on the metagame.

BTW @OP: creative title for the thread I really like your originality
Why not just ask "Should Stealth Rock be banned?"
The reason why my poll asked "would you still play" was because of a debate I had about the potential split in the playerbase :/

 

[PokéMontage]

"Booooo, I don't feel like dealing with something threatening so we should just ban it."

That's all I hear in these arguments. If you don't like what you're being presented with, then find a different game to play. Stealth Rock isn't broken, so there's no reason to ban it. It's not a permanent fixture on the field. There are viable ways to deal with it. If you're using something that's weak to it...well, so what? Every pokemon has weaknesses. Learn how to overcome them or choose something else.

 

[Wilson Antley]

I honestly enjoy Stealth Rocks if only because it increases the pace of the game and is probably the only thing keeping Thundurus from being completely broken (though I personally lean towards banning Thundurus anyway).

Stealth Rocks puts immediate pressure on your opponent as far as switching goes, and adding this pressure I think introduces pretty complex mindgames that would be absent without hazards. Even though it affects the effectiveness of certain types that rock hits supereffectively, ice, fire, flying, & bug are generally shit types defensively (usually are only effective when they're combined with types that resist rock but not only for canceling the rock weakness) and so a defensive pokemon running these types usually has an inherent type disadvantage whether rocks are in play or not and generally speaking pokes that use these types offensively are comparatively less hampered by rocks being on the field, etc etc

Rocks certainly centralize the meta to an extent but I also think they force more thought into the mindgames involved with switching and anything that makes the game more strategic is good in my book. The lack of rocks in the meta would by no means make me stop playing but in general I favor their inclusion.

 

[Quataaaa]

In Generation IV, I'd have been all for this; I believe that SR did have an unhealthy effect on that metagame.

But in V? It's harder to use with things like Espeon running around, has far less distribution (ex: in IV, Mienshao would likely have it and that'd be REALLY REALLY SCARY; not so in V, most of the new Pokémon have no access to SR at all, and those that get it from IV can't use new egg moves or DW abilities, meaning that, say, Gliscor doesn't use it anymore), and with new Pokémon like Volcarona and the new-and-improved Dragonite running around actually plays an important role in maintaining the stability of the metagame.

stealth rock absolutely ruined the gen IV metagame, well for me at least.

with rotoms running around, spinning was very tough in the ou metagame.

fire was the best check on steel, and ice was the best check on dragon, obviously. but since stealth rock rendered most of the fire and ice typed pokemon unviable, we had a dragon dragon steel steel steel metagame.

stealth rock was incredibly centralizing in gen 4, and not only that but too much of the game revolved around getting up the rocks, preventing your opponent from doing so with taunt, and spinning when actually possible.

having a metagame centralized around one move was pretty shitty compared to having a metagame centralized around weather changers (which it is now, and which i personally enjoy).


we'd be much better off with sr removed from gen 5, but its not as big a problem as it was in gen 4.

 

[mamoswineFTW]

There isn't just one way to deal with Stealth Rock. Sure you could Rapid Spin. Or you could Taunt/Magic Coat/Magic Mirror it. Or Bulky Wish Pass. Or send out your pokemon before SR comes up.

With the loss of the Rotom-Formes as spinblockers, it isn't too hard to deal with other ghosts. And if you really want your Charizard/Moltres to succeed, then base your team around them, with Spinners and Wish Passers and whatnot. Run a Volcarana with Chesto-Rest.

There are ways to deal with SR, and if you really want to use a SR-weak pokemon, build your team around ways to deal with it. Don't go calling for bans for something like this.

 

[bread]

Gen IV was dominated by dragon steel because dragon was by far the single best attacking type which of course necessitated its only resist: steel types. This dominance was not through a lack of "counters" to dragons and steels individually. Steels are weak against the two most common physical attacking types: ground and fighting. And a fire type (heatran) was the number 1 most used pokemon in OU. Many, many pokemon carry ice as a coverage move which is just as decent against dragons without stab.

Stealth rocks is as much a part of the metagame as leftovers or EQ. Why should only ground get a 100BP move thats 100% accurate with no recoil, negative priority, stat decrease, etc AND be a common move on many physical pokemon? Physical walls that are weak to EQ or fighting are almost never considered because EQ and fighting moves are so popular. Yes it sucks for pokemon like Bastiodon but oh well, we deal with it.

 

[Togelover]

Stealth Rock is currently one of the least broken things in the metagame right now. Things like Ferrothorn, Rain, Sun and Excadrill are far more broken.

 

[Raikaria]

Gen IV was dominated by dragon steel because dragon was by far the single best attacking type which of course necessitated its only resist: steel types. This dominance was not through a lack of "counters" to dragons and steels individually. Steels are weak against the two most common physical attacking types: ground and fighting. And a fire type (heatran) was the number 1 most used pokemon in OU. Many, many pokemon carry ice as a coverage move which is just as decent against dragons without stab.

Stealth rocks is as much a part of the metagame as leftovers or EQ. Why should only ground get a 100BP move thats 100% accurate with no recoil, negative priority, stat decrease, etc AND be a common move on many physical pokemon? Physical walls that are weak to EQ or fighting are almost never considered because EQ and fighting moves are so popular. Yes it sucks for pokemon like Bastiodon but oh well, we deal with it.

May I just point out that at the time Heatran was the #1 most used, the only OU dragons were Dragonite, Flygon and Kingdra, and none of them saw massive amounts of use?

Scizor during the Mance times would be more appropriate a comparison.