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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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It's like Smogon has forgotten Jolteon for stuff like Gastrodon/Quagsire...I'd never thought I'd see the day.
Thundrus is out-sped and wrecked by Jolt. Fearing a Focus Blast? I run Tentacruel to bait him into using an Electric move, pretty much any other Water/Poison/Ghost can do this. HP Ice usually kills him off after SR, and a Thunderbolt will certainly ruin his day should he switch to something else, or you can use the free turn to set up something with Jolteon.
Really, people think Thundrus is uber? If you don't like Jolteon, use some prediction with Ground types.
Thundrus is out-sped and wrecked by Jolt. Fearing a Focus Blast? I run Tentacruel to bait him into using an Electric move, pretty much any other Water/Poison/Ghost can do this. HP Ice usually kills him off after SR, and a Thunderbolt will certainly ruin his day should he switch to something else, or you can use the free turn to set up something with Jolteon.
Really, people think Thundrus is uber? If you don't like Jolteon, use some prediction with Ground types.
jolteon isnt the best pokemon because its basically set up fodder for excadrill, ferrothorn and tyranitar.
It's not a counter since it gets KOed by 2 DMs, but Life Orb has very little chance at all.
252 Timid Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor
vs. 248/252 Careful Leftovers Gastrodon : 65.9% - 77.6%
252 Timid Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor
vs. 248/252 Careful Leftovers Gastrodon : 57.4% - 67.8%
But if you use recover, there is no chance at all of being KOed by the specs DM.
lol you can't come in on it and recover on the same turn
Hence why you have 6 team members. No Pokemon is perfect. Don't expect Jolteon to be either.
Jolteon can serve as a Thundrus counter, a Cleric with Heal Bell, a Revenge Killer with that Base 130 Speed, Dragon Insurance/Gliscor check with HP Ice, and even other roles. He is far from dead weight only meant for Thundrus.
It's, at best, a check to Specs Latios. It's not a counter because it can't switch in, take the hit and survive the next one. There is a chance it'll survive due to leftovers, but I still think the chance of being KOed is greater.
I think you people aren't realizing that the obscenely high ratings last round were caused by no ladder reset plus an insanely long period. If you guys could find it in your hearts to get off your asses and check out the last time we had a ladder reset and a 4 week round, you'd see that 44 accounts had over 1400, and only 12 had over 1450 when the requirement was 15+15. The round before that when the requirement was 1400, there were 47 accounts at 1400 and only 3 over 1450. If you really think a rating requirement of 1400 would have produced more voters than it did this past round, there's something seriously wrong with the logic part of your brain.
I said the same thing about jolt vs thundurus and got treated as a scrub on PO. They say jolt is only a check due to hammer arm 2hkoing or OHKOing with SR down
They must be goats...when does Thundrus ever run Hammer Arm?
you expect him to do all that shit and not die? I can easily use those same 6 pokemon and wear you down with hazards/ leech seed + revenge with my own scarfers. Without specs your tbolts are pretty weak for this metagame.
I do most of that shit regularly.
And any of those arguments can apply to a host of frail Pokemon, the thing is Jolteon has Volt Absorb for some recovery if you can predict well. Regardless of fragility, Jolt still gets the job done; you'd be surprised how many idiots like to switch in Gliscor/Garchomp/Another Dragon and get 2KO'D or OHKO'd by HP Ice/Shadow Ball. Yes, Jolt may run into problems with Nattorei and friends, but not every Pokemon is perfect.
Thundrus is checked/countered by Jolteon/Ground types and some good prediction. Thundrus is not Uber. Case closed.
I was thinking about making this its own thread because of the threat of derailing this thread, but I already made a thread in PR and unfortunately nothing has been done about it. The only thing I can do now is continue to mention it in other places.
EDIT: also lol what am I really derailing right now? -.-
On the other hand, it is for the very same reasons that it's exceedingly difficult to do what suspect voters SHOULD be doing: playing to learn. As people may know if they read anything from Sirlin other than the article about scrubs, playing to learn can be at times very different from playing to win. It can involve intentionally using suboptimal teams and tactics, making teams entirely on your own (not stealing them), and using several different teams. Unfortunately, PO's rating system actively punishes playing to learn. Indeed, the "ease" of playing to win translates to doing a lot of meaningless grunt work. All in all, it produces a fantastically dull, boring and unenlightening laddering experience.
It's highly unfortunate that we've had to rely on this rating system to determine who our "best" and "most informed" players are...
I see a lot of people complaining about voters being stupid or uninformed or whatever. That's exactly why I'm thinking more and more that we should do this. People who suggest a return of the Smogon Council should especially be pushing this with me; I honestly don't see why they don't, especially considering at least one of them is in the "brain trust". I suspect that it's just a combination of ignorance and a subsequent refusal to change. In reality, my suggestion is directly inspired by the Council, and it reflects what was good about it, not the ludicrously low number of voters that is the main criticism of it. If the Council worked at all, it was in spite of the low number of voters, not because of it.
EDIT: also lol what am I really derailing right now? -.-
It's terribly naive to think that what you said in the second paragraph will fix what you said in the first paragraph. As I demonstrated a while ago, the rating system is significantly flawed. In a way, it is both too easy and too hard to get a high rating, for all the wrong reasons. People have admitted to copying cookie-cutter teams and even joke teams to attain ludicrously high ratings with little effort and learning little through the process. A while ago, Rising_Dusk got over 1200 rating by copying Cynthia's team... (just species, but still...) We can point out bad apples all we want, but are you really sure that continuing to increase the rating to 1450 or 1500 or whatever will get rid of them?
On the other hand, it is for the very same reasons that it's exceedingly difficult to do what suspect voters SHOULD be doing: playing to learn. As people may know if they read anything from Sirlin other than the article about scrubs, playing to learn can be at times very different from playing to win. It can involve intentionally using suboptimal teams and tactics, making teams entirely on your own (not stealing them), and using several different teams. Unfortunately, PO's rating system actively punishes playing to learn. Indeed, the "ease" of playing to win translates to doing a lot of meaningless grunt work. All in all, it produces a fantastically dull, boring and unenlightening laddering experience.
It's highly unfortunate that we've had to rely on this rating system to determine who our "best" and "most informed" players are...
I actually agree with much of what you said. I've already seen people dismiss your post in chat because of the solution that you propose - people are honestly too quick to judge posts... - but I have to disagree with it as well. Paragraphs put too much grunt work onto the "brain trust", making the process very inefficient. I stand by what I suggested in PR: a chatroom or subforum for the potential qualified voters to talk, with the "brain trust" moderating it. (In PR, I also suggested giving "trial runs" to people with alternate qualifications.) It's a lot more dynamic, interesting and efficient than just reading a bunch of paragraphs.
I see a lot of people complaining about voters being stupid or uninformed or whatever. That's exactly why I'm thinking more and more that we should do this. People who suggest a return of the Smogon Council should especially be pushing this with me; I honestly don't see why they don't, especially considering at least one of them is in the "brain trust". I suspect that it's just a combination of ignorance and a subsequent refusal to change. In reality, my suggestion is directly inspired by the Council, and it reflects what was good about it, not the ludicrously low number of voters that is the main criticism of it. If the Council worked at all, it was in spite of the low number of voters, not because of it.
The smogon server went down, so I went and laddered on PO with my new team.
Basically, my new team is Bulky Offense, and has screen support. It also has a fast late-game sweeper, who's not exactly frail.
Combined with Duel Screens Latias, and Jirachi to keep the attackers healthy with Wish [And spready Paralysis], the team is seeming rather sucessful right now.
Of course, winning against PO scrubs is one thing. Winning against Smogon players when the Smogon server is back up is another thing altogether. Still, the team seems to be working well.
However, I've not seen anything yet to suggest Latios isn't broken still. Ferrothorn is still borderline in my mind.
I've finally stopped sitting on the metathorical fence for Thunderus, and fallen on the broken side. However, it's far from too late for me to climb back over.
Basically, my new team is Bulky Offense, and has screen support. It also has a fast late-game sweeper, who's not exactly frail.
Combined with Duel Screens Latias, and Jirachi to keep the attackers healthy with Wish [And spready Paralysis], the team is seeming rather sucessful right now.
Of course, winning against PO scrubs is one thing. Winning against Smogon players when the Smogon server is back up is another thing altogether. Still, the team seems to be working well.
However, I've not seen anything yet to suggest Latios isn't broken still. Ferrothorn is still borderline in my mind.
I've finally stopped sitting on the metathorical fence for Thunderus, and fallen on the broken side. However, it's far from too late for me to climb back over.
To be fair, the last vote had an addition 'write-in' option where people could apply for voting rights. No idea how many of these were actually considered, but it's still an option. That said, I agree that ranking should not be the sole factor - it should be considered, but not the only thing looked at.
Going back to the topic at hand:
Curtains, Jolteon is clearly not meant to do all of those things at once. The point is that Jolteon has a number of options available to him, including countering Thundurus.
And ??????, how the hell do you see Thundurus being beaten by any Ground-type? Good luck beating Thundurus with, say, Donphan, especially if the Thundurus is running HP Ice. =/ (And if you meant the fact that they can switch in on an Electric-type attack, they still need to actually beat Thundurus. Otherwise, it just sits and sets up on them, and +4/+6 Thundurus is not failing to OHKO anything. >_>)
Going back to the topic at hand:
Curtains, Jolteon is clearly not meant to do all of those things at once. The point is that Jolteon has a number of options available to him, including countering Thundurus.
And ??????, how the hell do you see Thundurus being beaten by any Ground-type? Good luck beating Thundurus with, say, Donphan, especially if the Thundurus is running HP Ice. =/ (And if you meant the fact that they can switch in on an Electric-type attack, they still need to actually beat Thundurus. Otherwise, it just sits and sets up on them, and +4/+6 Thundurus is not failing to OHKO anything. >_>)
What about mamoswine? If it switches in on a thunderbolt, it would be immune to priority thunder wave and be able to ice shard.
Perhaps I should've clarified...Ground types can switch into Thundrus and then prediction can go from there. You can switch into a Ghost or something for Focus Blast. And there is always Doryuzu in Sand and Mamooswine, as GatoDelFuego mentioned.
And yeah my simple LO Jolt set of BoltBeam(w/ HP Ice), Shadow Ball, and Heal Bell not only counters Thundrus, but serves as a good deterrent to Lati@s, Gliscor, and Dragons, as a general Poke that pretty much outspeeds everything without a scarf, and as an unexpected cleric. Jolteon is far from as useless as Curtains makes him out to be.
Excadrill is my worry in Sandstorm, this wrecks many, but priority also wrecks it, and Gliscor:
Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Adamant + Sand Rush
252 Atk/252 Spd/6 HP
Swords Dance
Rock Slide
Earthquake
X-Scissor
Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Adamant + Sand Rush
252 Atk/252 Spd/6 HP
Swords Dance
Rock Slide
Earthquake
X-Scissor
The problem here is if your opponent predicts a ground type switch (made easier by the team viewer), you're dead. The problem with thundurus is it has no clear, cold-cut counter. Sure, it has lots of checks, but until you fully know it's set you don't have many options. Blissey and Ferrothorn get taken out by FB and hammer arm, ground types are taken out by HP ice, Mamo+excadrill are take out by FB, anything not ground type that's faster gets nailed by thunder wave, anything slow that resists its moves can be taunted. I know that all these moves won't be on one set, but you'd still have to prepare for all of these...and what pokemon can do all that?
How exactly does Donphan get taken out with Sturdy and access to Stone Edge and ice Shard?
Okay, its time for me to finally vent out all my issues with Drizzle. Although it is not "broken", I don't believe that we can only ban things that are "broken". However, we can and should ban things that affect the metagame in the way that Drizzle does. And I will describe my reasons below. First, some ground rules.
Okay, so I think many of Smogon's senior users will agree for the most part to the things mentioned above. So here are the reasons why Drought has no place in OU.
1. Drizzle makes Fire types unviable This one is obvious. With a 50% decrease in the power of their STAB moves, Drizzle ruins the viability of all fire types. It is definite that without Rain being so common, pokemon like Heatran could make the top 5 while Infernape and Volcarona could become the top-tier sweepers they wish they were. It is also wholly possible that pokemon like Arcanine, who is very powerful in UU and has many new options in Gen V could make low OU. This is especially obvious with Darmanitan, who would normally be much higher but is now placed low at the #53 spot because its only good point is its ultra-powerful Flare Blitz.
2. Drizzle makes sandstorm more viable then they already would be. We all know how great sandstorm is, and we all know that it is the dominant playstyle in OU. One thing that many people don't realize is that it is only so great because it can counter rain. For players who choose not to use Drizzle, there is only one other option to remain viable in OU. For reasons I will explain below, non-weather teams are pathetic when compared to any type of weather. The fact that Drizzle encourages the already most common pokemon in the game is simply unforgivable. Soon we will reach a stage where Tyranitar will be similar to Scizor in late Platinum OU, where I think he had over 30% usage. The game will revolve around Tyranitar, Excadrill, and Gliscor. Not good for diversity, or for balance.
3. Any Pokemon that can't abuse rain (or other weathers which counter rain) is unviable. I want you to pull up the May 2011 usage. Read off the top 20 Pokemon in OU. Only 2 Pokemon, Conkeldurr and Gengar, lack the ability to abuse weather. More than half of OU gains a boost in usage, while the other half gets a decrease in usage. Its like taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich; and its all caused by Drizzle for the most part.
4. A Drizzle team has an automatic advantage when facing a team without weather. A Drizzle team gets many advantages that a normal team doesn't have, and can build its movesets accordingly. For one, it has double STAB on water moves. This allows is to hit everything, and hit it hard unless that thing's name is Ferrothorn. Secondly, it can avoid Fire moves on its team. In this scenario, the Drizzle teams saves several moveslots that are wasted on the team of the opponent. That can mean all the difference. Rain also allows for 100% accurate Thunders and Hurricanes. Let's say that two Starmies, at full health, are facing off for the win. The one on the rain team will succeed simply because it has that free 20% extra damage. Think about it this way: if two equally good players battle, the one will rain will more likely win due to these advantage raising his/her odds.
5. Drizzle has no drawbacks, only positives. There is no reason to NOT use Drizzle. It can beat sandstorm, gives many advantages, and can neutralize potential threats in Volcarona, Darmanitan, etc. There is no drawback. Unlike sandstorm, it can't hurt your own Pokemon.
6. A Drizzle team, when facing a team with one or two fire types, is more likely going to win simply due to team matchup. Lets say that I have a team with two fire types. Neither have a weakness to Stealth Rock, and both are perfectly viable in OU like Heatran and Infernape. In the rain, I essentially have two potential deadweights. Its like the score is 6-5 right off the bat. Or lets say that I am running a Drought team. I am already at a disadvantage due to the fact that Grass types don't even get a STAB boost in the sun. Like above, if I am just as good as my opponent, I am more likely to lose. This reduces the entire metagame to luck, and those who run into more teams that they are effective against can do better. It was not like this before in Gen 4, where anything could be played around. You cannot play around Rain. It will always be there, nerfing your Pokemon and boosting theirs.
I hope you guys don't think I'm an idiot, and I hope you try to refute my position, as that is what Smogon is all about. Thank you.
- Things that limit diversity substantially need to be banned
- Things that offer a significant advantage to the user at no cost need to be banned
- Anything that reduces the metagame to "team matchup" needs to be banned
Okay, so I think many of Smogon's senior users will agree for the most part to the things mentioned above. So here are the reasons why Drought has no place in OU.
1. Drizzle makes Fire types unviable This one is obvious. With a 50% decrease in the power of their STAB moves, Drizzle ruins the viability of all fire types. It is definite that without Rain being so common, pokemon like Heatran could make the top 5 while Infernape and Volcarona could become the top-tier sweepers they wish they were. It is also wholly possible that pokemon like Arcanine, who is very powerful in UU and has many new options in Gen V could make low OU. This is especially obvious with Darmanitan, who would normally be much higher but is now placed low at the #53 spot because its only good point is its ultra-powerful Flare Blitz.
2. Drizzle makes sandstorm more viable then they already would be. We all know how great sandstorm is, and we all know that it is the dominant playstyle in OU. One thing that many people don't realize is that it is only so great because it can counter rain. For players who choose not to use Drizzle, there is only one other option to remain viable in OU. For reasons I will explain below, non-weather teams are pathetic when compared to any type of weather. The fact that Drizzle encourages the already most common pokemon in the game is simply unforgivable. Soon we will reach a stage where Tyranitar will be similar to Scizor in late Platinum OU, where I think he had over 30% usage. The game will revolve around Tyranitar, Excadrill, and Gliscor. Not good for diversity, or for balance.
3. Any Pokemon that can't abuse rain (or other weathers which counter rain) is unviable. I want you to pull up the May 2011 usage. Read off the top 20 Pokemon in OU. Only 2 Pokemon, Conkeldurr and Gengar, lack the ability to abuse weather. More than half of OU gains a boost in usage, while the other half gets a decrease in usage. Its like taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich; and its all caused by Drizzle for the most part.
4. A Drizzle team has an automatic advantage when facing a team without weather. A Drizzle team gets many advantages that a normal team doesn't have, and can build its movesets accordingly. For one, it has double STAB on water moves. This allows is to hit everything, and hit it hard unless that thing's name is Ferrothorn. Secondly, it can avoid Fire moves on its team. In this scenario, the Drizzle teams saves several moveslots that are wasted on the team of the opponent. That can mean all the difference. Rain also allows for 100% accurate Thunders and Hurricanes. Let's say that two Starmies, at full health, are facing off for the win. The one on the rain team will succeed simply because it has that free 20% extra damage. Think about it this way: if two equally good players battle, the one will rain will more likely win due to these advantage raising his/her odds.
5. Drizzle has no drawbacks, only positives. There is no reason to NOT use Drizzle. It can beat sandstorm, gives many advantages, and can neutralize potential threats in Volcarona, Darmanitan, etc. There is no drawback. Unlike sandstorm, it can't hurt your own Pokemon.
6. A Drizzle team, when facing a team with one or two fire types, is more likely going to win simply due to team matchup. Lets say that I have a team with two fire types. Neither have a weakness to Stealth Rock, and both are perfectly viable in OU like Heatran and Infernape. In the rain, I essentially have two potential deadweights. Its like the score is 6-5 right off the bat. Or lets say that I am running a Drought team. I am already at a disadvantage due to the fact that Grass types don't even get a STAB boost in the sun. Like above, if I am just as good as my opponent, I am more likely to lose. This reduces the entire metagame to luck, and those who run into more teams that they are effective against can do better. It was not like this before in Gen 4, where anything could be played around. You cannot play around Rain. It will always be there, nerfing your Pokemon and boosting theirs.
I hope you guys don't think I'm an idiot, and I hope you try to refute my position, as that is what Smogon is all about. Thank you.
I won't answer for him, but I assume not since he said starting at 6-5 instead of 6-4 , since heatran can do at most, set up rocks and die. However, without its fighting type, it does gain a lot of weaknesses and a neutrality that it didn't have before...., not including at least 1 weak slot.
Overall, I like the argument, however I could argue that #5, drizzle does have the drawback on relying on politoed to keep the weather up in a weather war, and that not being able to use fire type moves can hurt against opponents who use Ferrathorn or Scizor, ect. Otherwise, it seems like a really good argument.
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