np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[sarkhan666]

The only viable pokemon that can reliably counter Excadrill are Gliscor and Skarmory. Slowbro is 2HKOed by adamant LO after rocks, Bronzong is one of the worst Excadrill checks possible (it can check one of Excadrill, Latios, Landorus, etc. per match... but crumbles under the pressure of two on the same team), and other less bulky pokemon predictably fall under pressure from the stupidly powerful adamant LO Excadrill. Priority is also mentioned a fair amount as a way to check Excadrill, but only two priority users can OHKO Excadrill: TechniTop and CB Azumarill. TechniTop is not viable in OU, and CB Azumarill barely makes the cut.

I dont know about anyone else, but i've had quite good luck checking excadrill with this guy:

Cobalion @ Air Balloon
Justified
4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
Jolly
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Swords Dance

I mean seriously guys. This thing laughs off Excadrill's coverage moves. And how many Excadrill actually carry Brick Break? Yeah, it has to come in on a predicted EQ or revenge, but don't most Excadrill checks have to do that anyway?

I do agree that Excadrill is stupidly powerful, but there's a lot more ways to check it than just priority or uber bulky pokemon like Bronzong, Skarmory, etc.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

They are just the standard ways to counter it, there are others, as you said most air-balloon pokemon. Also Hitmontop counters it pretty well, Conkeldurr check it decently (and if you predict a swords dance, its a counter), heck, I found a physically defensive Gyrados to be an ok counter. It has plently of counters and checks.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

This... actually makes a lot of sense. I've never looked at Excadrill that way. I guess I'm going to ladder paying attention to Excadrill more than Thundurus this time.

He does have a great point. Not many scarfers are seen this Gen...Let's all just take a moment to think back to 4th gen (I know it's different, but i'm just trying to use an example we all know). Deoxys-s made so many leads nonviable that it was pushed to uber. Isn't that what's happening now? Scarfers have no purpose when they just flat can't outspeed the main threat. If excadrill is making that many pokemon nonviable...maybe it is uber, no matter how many gliscors and skarms you have (which will fall to a rock slide flinch....)

I dont know about anyone else, but i've had quite good luck checking excadrill with this guy:

Cobalion @ Air Balloon
Justified
4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
Jolly
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Swords Dance

I mean seriously guys. This thing laughs off Excadrill's coverage moves. And how many Excadrill actually carry Brick Break? Yeah, it has to come in on a predicted EQ or revenge, but don't most Excadrill checks have to do that anyway?

I do agree that Excadrill is stupidly powerful, but there's a lot more ways to check it than just priority or uber bulky pokemon like Bronzong, Skarmory, etc.

But if you come in on a X-Scissor, you're dead, which makes this a situational counter at best. What if it's excadrill vs celebi? reunicleus? You have to sacrifice something, and then your opponent can just switch out.

Also, if countering excadrill is going to center around just prediction, then something is wrong. Ever poke should have some hard-stop counter, no matter how unusable it is.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Also, if countering excadrill is going to center around just prediction, then something is wrong. Ever poke should have some hard-stop counter, no matter how unusable it is.

No where in this metagame exists a hard Infernape, Lucario, Dragonite, or Jirachi counter. Under that logic then, they should all be banned.

 

[sarkhan666]

You have to sacrifice something.

My point exactly

 

[November Blue]

I agree with MWL. Snunch, your post was great.

But don't you think that you might be generalizing a little? Excadrill isn't as unanimous as garchomp was (from what I've seen) and he doesn't completely overshadow the scarf metagame. Hell, scarf flygon and mamoswine are great antimetagame pokes right now. Even outside weather, scarf pokes are usually viable if they have some kind of selling point. Scarftar and infernape for example.

Maybe y'all should acknowledge Sarkhan a little more. His sets are innovative and "tailored to the current meta"

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

But if you come in on a X-Scissor, you're dead, which makes this a situational counter at best. What if it's excadrill vs celebi? reunicleus? You have to sacrifice something, and then your opponent can just switch out.

What's stopping you from switching to a Bug resist that's weak to ground or neutral wih resists to Bug/Rock? Then you get a free switch. Its not as inviable as you make it out to be.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

No where in this metagame exists a hard Infernape, Lucario, Dragonite, or Jirachi counter. Under that logic then, they should all be banned.

But all of those pokes can be outsped...Excadrill cannot.

What's stopping you from switching to a Bug resist that's weak to ground or neutral wih resists to Bug/Rock? Then you get a free switch. Its not as inviable as you make it out to be.

That's assuming a lot about you team...but anyway, the point I was trying to make is the excadrill can just switch out and come back later. A counter is supposed to beat the opposing pokemon. This just forces a switch.

 

[November Blue]

Actually, what is the most common excadrill set? Adamant LO rapid spinner? X-scissor? The air balloon creates excadrill checks. Anything that can OHKO it and take a rock slide/x-scissor/return can check it.

Balloon Hippowdon! :P

 

[Wilson Antley]

I know I'm not adding a massive amount to the discussion here, but I can definitely vouch for the extremely unhealthy effects a few threats are having on the meta.

-Drizzle obviously needs to go. I'm pretty sure Drought needs to go as well, but Drizzle should definitely be banned first since Drought is obviously just outclassed by Drizzle.
-Smashpassing is incredibly easy to win with and I've been laddering with a smashpass team in hopes to nominate it if I ever get voting reqs. Still, smashpassing is far from the worst thing in the meta.
-LO Excadrill is really worrisome and, honestly, I just don't think a sweeper with Exca's stats should be around. Adamant LO Exca hits, what, 972 atk and 550 speed after one turn of setup in the sand? I don't care about priority, those sweeping stats are simply exaggerated and seem more fitting in ubers than in OU.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Actually, what is the most common excadrill set? Adamant LO rapid spinner? X-scissor? The air balloon creates excadrill checks. Anything that can OHKO it and take a rock slide/x-scissor/return can check it.

Balloon Hippowdon! :P

Unfortunantly we do not know because PO fails to make such specific useage stats. And even if one set was used 99% of the time, that means 1% of the time, you would always lose. Although in todays metagame, you usually have to take such risks.

 

[sarkhan666]

But all of those pokes can be outsped...Excadrill cannot.



That's assuming a lot about you team...but anyway, the point I was trying to make is the excadrill can just switch out and come back later. A counter is supposed to beat the opposing pokemon. This just forces a switch.

You would be surprised how many dont switch or completely ignore that it has an Air Balloon in the first place. If you want a lure then why not just put a shuca berry on everything weak to ground that resists bug/normal/rock? and as Texas Cloverleaf pointed out, so what if it switches? then you get a free turn.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Jolly Balloon ~65%, Adamant LO ~35%

SD Rapid Spin ~5%
SD X-Scissor ~55%
SD Reurn/Frustration ~40%

My estimations based on experience.

 

[SuperHydreigon1996]

To be honest, Sand Veil is a cheap ability. It's like having a Double Team or two for an ability, and you all know Double Team is banned.
When Rough Skin comes out, I'd love to see Garchomp be a suspect for OU. By the way, I'm new here...

 

[Luphrous]

Snunch made a really good point about Excadrill outclassing scarfers, which goes on to screw up the speed tiers and whatnot. He basically connected two thoughts I've had plenty of times in this game before, but never managed to connect myself. Several times I've thought, why are things like Thundurus and Volcarona giving me so much trouble, I should just use a 100+ speed scarfer and call it a day. But then I get around to considering scarfers, and it's like why incur all the setbacks of a scarf user(gives away many set up opportunities) when it won't even be able to outspeed and revenge a non-scarf user with no set up(Excadrill). But I never said, 'Excadrill is making the vast majority of scarf users obselete, which in turn is making it hard to check set up sweepers, unless using Excadrill himself.'

I've always thought it a little hard to call Excadrill broken, what with having 2 counters and plenty of situational checks(anything + air balloon pretty much), but after seeing Snunch's logical jump, I have to say....it's a really strong conclusion, and I'll definitely be paying attention to Excadrill this round.

 

[Tortferngatr]

To be honest, Sand Veil is a cheap ability. It's like having a Double Team or two for an ability, and you all know Double Team is banned.
When Rough Skin comes out, I'd love to see him be a suspect for OU. By the way, I'm new here...

...Garchomp was just banned.

Like Speed Boost, Sand Veil is only broken when it's on a mon with the stats, typing, and moves to abuse it.

Because last I checked, Yanmega wasn't broken in Gen IV.

And neither was Gliscor, despite the fact in Gen IV they almost all used Sand Veil in lieu of Poison Heal.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

This could be the revelation that pushes it to uber. Everyone last round was all happy about garchomp til somebody mentioned the subchomp set. Then it was all for uber.

Seriously, thundurus is not the problem here. Choice scarf flygon, one of the simplest and common pokes from last game, can handle it easily. Jolteon, any scarfed ground type, heck, rhyperior could take it on with solid rock. But since excadrill outclasses all the scarfers...well...

 

[SuperHydreigon1996]

I usually carry an Ice type attack around my team for any of the dragons.
A sub set got Garchomp banned? I don't know much really. Maybe just ban that set?
Again, I love wifi battles, but I don't like getting controlled too much when I paid money for my game.

 

[sarkhan666]

I agree. there's a whole 4 pokemon that can weild a choice scarf and outspeed it. and none of them can do a significant amount of damage to it to be viable (except maybe accelgor's focus blast but im not too sure about that).

 

[jas61292]

Oh no! There is 1 Pokemon that my scarfer is no good against. I guess that automatically means it is broken and as long as it is around I can never use a scarfer again.

Really people?

 

[sarkhan666]

Oh no! There is 1 Pokemon that my scarfer is no good against. I guess that automatically means it is broken and as long as it is around I can never use a scarfer again.

Really people?

that wouldnt be so bad but its the fact that excadrill has amazing typing/base 135 attack/swords dance/excellent neutral coverage/relatively decent bulk going for it. and the fact that since it can ohko most things that would hold a scarf in the first place means that simply running one scarfer vs a team with excadrill is just giving away free turns.

 

[Tortferngatr]

I usually carry an Ice type attack around my team for any of the dragons.
A sub set got Garchomp banned? I don't know much really. Maybe just ban that set?
Again, I love wifi battles, but I don't like getting controlled too much when I paid money for my game.

Smogon's current policy is not to ban sets. Not only that, but why couldn't Garchomp use Dragon Claw or Dual Chop over Outrage? That's two more things to ban, because they might also be broken for the same reasons as Outrage Subchomp-in essence, it is far simpler to ban the entire Pokemon, or a single aspect that is by nature game-breaking. (Neither Speed Boost nor Sand Veil break everything that has them.)

And that's only if your definition of "set" is a moveset. If you define it as including EV spreads, then we can simply divert 4 attack EVs into HP or some such loopholing to get even more ridiculous.

 

[Tobes]

Minor nitpick but Dragon Claw was way more common than Outrage on Subchomp.

But yeah banning sets is not something we do, or ever will.

 

[IcyMan28]

Alright people are getting tired of hearing me bitch on IRC so it's time for an actual post.

Fuck Excadrill.

Finally, intelligent discussion regarding Excadrill. The Adamant LO set is what got Excadrill its hype to begin with, then people for some reason decided to start running Jolly Balloon.

I do disagree on a few things however, and it is that scarfers have always been general set-up fodder and you have needed to run checks to the things that set up on them regardless. They are, however, still viable. I run Scarf-RotomW and it works just fine, for obvious reasons. If you decide to run a different Scarfer, pack an Excadrill check and call it a day.

As far as priority is concerned, why are we assuming that it has to do 100% damage? If Adamant LO is what we're working with, it will lose about a fourth of its health from switching into spikes and launching an attack alone. And Excadrill only has 1 immunity to switch in on. All of the pokemon running an electric-type move in OU have a means to hit Excadrill hard, and will be wary of it thanks to TP. Rotom-W, Thundurus, Starmie, and Magnezone tend to have water/fighting/fire moves, respectively. Revenging Excadrill (or not letting it set up at all) really isn't as extreme as your post makes it out to be. It isn't easy, but then that shouldn't be the case to begin with if you are relying on a pokemon as your main sweeper.

Weather wars are weather wars, I want Drizzle gone regardless.

RS Excadrill does not terrorize stall in the way you imply. As Mien pointed out, it will prolong the battle by quite a bit, but with Skarm + Hippo, Excadrill won't be sweeping anytime soon. Even worse if you aren't running balloon, because spinning those Spikes will take its toll (particularly switching into a Brave Bird here, being Roared out there).

All of that aside, I am far more inclined to support an Excadrill ban if (and when) more people catch on and go back to using Adamant LO. Excadrill is currently manageable, but a 42% increase in power simply by changing the item and nature would make it a much more difficult contender to deal with.

Maybe y'all should acknowledge Sarkhan a little more. His sets are innovative and "tailored to the current meta"

No, that set seems pretty useless, IMO. Terrakion can run that same set to much greater effect for example (same item and everything), and Cobalion has little, if any, niche in OU. Air Balloon is a shaky check to Excadrill at best, because you have to either avoid switching in your Balloon user at all, or perfectly predict a ground/support move every time you want to bring it in.

 

[Stratos]

This could be the revelation that pushes it to uber. Everyone last round was all happy about garchomp til somebody mentioned the subchomp set. Then it was all for uber.

Seriously, thundurus is not the problem here. Choice scarf flygon, one of the simplest and common pokes from last game, can handle it easily. Jolteon, any scarfed ground type, heck, rhyperior could take it on with solid rock. But since excadrill outclasses all the scarfers...well...

Actually CS flygon outspeeds and fails to get the Stone Edge KO, then Thundurus rapes it in the ass hard. Trust me, I would know.

Also, Snunch's whole "SCARF OBSOLETION" thing is pretty far-fetched. Know why? Because there's still 648 pokemon that you outspeed. Scarf Landorus, Chomp, Flygon, etc were all still common with excadrill around, and they're good in sand! Yes, we're not getting the Slap-A-Scarf-On-Something-And-Call-It-A-Day thing we did in Gen IV with pokes such as Tyranitar, but I don't really see that as a bad thing, do you?