Masquerain

i dont know how many people are aware of this but ive tested the waters on google and it seems no one seems to be discussing this set, and i find it to be very deadly

Masquerain Quiver Passer

252 SpA 252 Spe 4 SpD focus sash

baton pass
quiver dance
air slash
bug buzz

the whole reason for this set is to pass those quiver dances into something that can use it much better then masquerain, ive found it especially useful on stored power pokes for the extra speed and boosts it gives them, but its also extremely useful on pokes such as jirachi, chandelure, azelf, or even gengar. +1 speed special attack and defense is even enough to get calm minders or sweepers started without having to waste their own moves (this is my first time starting a thread about a possible move set, so bear with my paragraphs..) the reason it has 252 SpA and 252 Spe is because its defenses are to too low to take a hit anyways, and the sash guarantee's it at least 1 quiver dance to pass with its now higher speed

so... discuss?
 
Venomoth > Masquerain at QuiverPass. Sleep Powder + Shield Dust to prevent Fake Out flinch = better than Intimidate.

End story.
 
I really like Masquerain, but it's just outclassed by Venomoth. If GF had only made it retain it's Bug/Water typing from Surskit, then it would have probably seen more use.

Because we totally need more Bug/Flying type combos running around.
 
I've stated before in the old Masquerain thread, the best thing Masquerain has going for it is a 4x Fighting resistance + Intimidate (Oh, and Hydro Pump). It should at least be able to force a switch on a Fighting type to allow it to get a Quiver Dance or two in (I will never not be annoyed at having to write that and not Butterfly Dance). I see it being the Venomoth of NU (Venomoth is RU, right?) as currently Venomoth outclasses it by virtue of its better stats, typing and abilty.
 
i dont know how many people are aware of this but ive tested the waters on google and it seems no one seems to be discussing this set, and i find it to be very deadly
As others have said, nobody is probably discussing that set because Venomoth can do similar to that (and usually better).

I agree though, I also find it to be a great tactic.
 
Too bad Masquerain didn't stay Bug/Water, as then its BD set would be significantly better with STAB on Hydro Pump.

Either way, Masq isn't 100% outclassed because LO +1 Hydro Pump 1hko's Heatran.
 
Too bad Masquerain didn't stay Bug/Water, as then its BD set would be significantly better with STAB on Hydro Pump.

Either way, Masq isn't 100% outclassed because LO +1 Hydro Pump 1hko's Heatran.
But Heatran isn't UU. Or are you just talking about how powerful it is?
 
But Heatran isn't UU. Or are you just talking about how powerful it is?
this wasn't in uu subforum when i posted that haha

Either way, I mostly posted that just to compare it to other QD+3 attackers who would otherwise completely outclass it in terms of actual power (think Volcarona/Venomoth/Lilligant) because they all fall short against Heatran, which is their most common counter.
 
QuiverPassing isn't Venomoth's only niche. In fact baton passing is not its best set IMHO. With Tinted Lens, Venomoth takes the whole UU metagame with unresisted Psychic and Bug Buzz unlike Masquerin.

Venomoth > Masquerain at QuiverPass. Sleep Powder + Shield Dust to prevent Fake Out flinch = better than Intimidate.

End story.
Fake Out isn't the most common thing in UU and with intimidate Masquerin shouldn't be taking a lot of damage. Masquerin isn't meant for QuiverDancing so obviously Venomoth outclasses it in that department along with many others. But Hydro Pump is a nice thing to have.
 
Eh, I'm sure Venomoth could work without Baton Pass...but why wouldn't you want to use it to its fullest? Tinted Lens Bug Buzz is hitting almost everything hard. The only Pokemon that resist it in UU are Charizard, Moltres, Drifblim, Emboar, Crobat, Cobalion. Drifblim and Emboar aren't common, and Charizard isn't either after Drought was banned. For everything else, Venomoth is better off Sleeping the counter and passing the boosts to something else. That's the beauty of using it.

Anyway, while Masquerain does have Intimidate and some notable attacking moves that Venomoth lacks, the absence of Sleep Powder and a decent Speed stat is too significant to ignore. Its typing is also generally worse. I'm sure it can be used successfully, but that applies to most outclassed things.

Tl;dr Venomoth > Masquerain as a BPer, [insert special sweeper] > Masquerain as a sweeper
 
QuiverPassing isn't Venomoth's only niche. In fact baton passing is not its best set IMHO. With Tinted Lens, Venomoth takes the whole UU metagame with unresisted Psychic and Bug Buzz unlike Masquerin.
note as to why wouldn't you use Nidoking instead, who has BoltBeam coverage and can use Earth Power to hit Magneton/Lanturn and Flamethrower to hit Magneton/Shedinja. Nidoking is much more powerful and he just needs the extra speed, and Venomoth's ability to sleep makes it a much more effective QuiverPasser than Masquerain.

Venomoth is outclassed at sweeping IMO. It CAN do a mini-special sweep if the opponent is weakened enough, but you can just pass these boosts to Nidoking and watch the rampage ensue.

Fake Out isn't the most common thing in UU and with intimidate Masquerin shouldn't be taking a lot of damage. Masquerin isn't meant for QuiverDancing so obviously Venomoth outclasses it in that department along with many others. But Hydro Pump is a nice thing to have.
Except the entire point of Shield Dust is to prevent the flinch so that Venomoth can sleep enemies. Masquerain may have Intimidate, but it flinches from FO and it can't sleep enemies either.
 
note as to why wouldn't you use Nidoking instead, who has BoltBeam coverage and can use Earth Power to hit Magneton/Lanturn and Flamethrower to hit Magneton/Shedinja. Nidoking is much more powerful and he just needs the extra speed, and Venomoth's ability to sleep makes it a much more effective QuiverPasser than Masquerain.

Venomoth is outclassed at sweeping IMO. It CAN do a mini-special sweep if the opponent is weakened enough, but you can just pass these boosts to Nidoking and watch the rampage ensue.



Except the entire point of Shield Dust is to prevent the flinch so that Venomoth can sleep enemies. Masquerain may have Intimidate, but it flinches from FO and it can't sleep enemies either.
You are forgetting that you can still Quiver Dance and Sleep stuff while Venomoth is out. I have swept way more times with Venomoth than with Nidoking. Scare something out, while you Quiver Dance, then sleep, etc..

Baton Pass isn't the must reliable thing around and +2 Venomoth > +1 Nidoking. Venomoth's base special stat and speed is higher than Nidoking's not including Encourage.

Why are you stressing Fake Out so much. Fake Out isn't common and there are many many more common priority alternatives present such as Extremespeed, Sucker Punch, Bullet Punch etc. and you don't even need priority to kill Venomoth. Tinted Lens makes Venomoth unresisted throughout the whole tier with only just two moves so you can continue to sleep threats and boost your stats through the battle which Nidoking cannot do.
 
Shield Dust's benefits don't stop at Fake Out, they also prevent random things like parahax from Thunder and the like.

What exactly does Venomoth scare out again? I don't understand.
 

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Most pokemon on stall teams for a start (hitmontop slowbro roserade chansey deoxys-D) but even against offensive teams it can usually find a place to get one dance (choice mons or "the glue"). One dance is all venomoth really needs to be scary anyway since then it gets a free powder and free pass/second dance.

Sorry to derail Masquerains thread a bit but no-one is gonna use masquerain in a tier that venomoth is in (except maybe for running them together but you're compounding weaknesses a lot.....not the best idea)
 
Note: I dont really know much about tiers.
Masquerain is wonderful. I have no idea what people here are talking about. But I would never use this set for it. I see Masquerain as a sweeper. I've swept teams with it. Just because nobody realizes the (decent) Sp.D bulk Masquerain has and the fun of a Salac berry and two Quiver Dances. Or even one. It can survive a t-bolt from a max'd sp atk reuincululs (or other pokemon with the same base stat). And OHKO it with a bug buzz. Its a great switch in for a fighting pokemon. It could survive whatever a fighting pokemon threw its way. (Even Conkeldurr who isnt in UU i think, wouldnt OHKO it with a thunderpunch, and im not even sure if it learns thunderpunch.) Masquerain in my opinion is best in the rain though. It abuses Hydro Pump, covers grass weakness on the team, and can survive fire attacks due to the rain. It isnt the best, but it definatly has its perks. I think its highly underrated, but Intimidate seriously helps it out. It literally walls fighting pokemon with its measly 62 defense.
 
Masquerain isn't entirely outclassed, Intimidate is still as good as ever, he has a number of useful resistances and with his decent special bulk he can function as a mini-Gyarados of sorts in RU. Don't forget access to Roost can be a nasty surprise.
 
Intimidate does help it take fighting attacks, but if those Fighting-types choose to carry Stone Edge it's still getting wrecked. Venomoth also has a 4x resistance to Fighting-attacks anyway, so it's not like it's going to roll over and die to a Karate Chop. Masquerain's special bulk isn't anything special (pun not intended) either. It only has 7 more points in its base SpDef than Venomoth, and both of them are boosting it with Quiver Dance.

Sleep Powder + better initial Speed are simply much more important, and Venomoth doesn't really mind having less attacking options than Masquerain since it has Tinted Lens.
 
Shield Dust's benefits don't stop at Fake Out, they also prevent random things like parahax from Thunder and the like.

What exactly does Venomoth scare out again? I don't understand.
4x Resistance to the ever-common Fighting and Grass. It's a pretty solid counter to Heracross if it decides to CC or Megahorn for an example.
 
Hey, hydro pump isnt masquerain's only coverage move. It gets Ice beam and gigadrain for recovery. It aslo gets SCALD. A burn on the opponents physical attackers while your special defense keeps being boosted is not a joke.
 
One advantage I guess is on a Rain team, so it gets Quiver Dance, Bug Buzz, Hydro Pump, Baton Pass. Rain removes Fire weakness, powers up Hydro Pump, and Baton Pass can work nicely. That is another benefit. It's like getting a water typing without the electric weakness.
 
I honestly have no idea why anyone would use this over venomoth on any team. Sleep Powder and Tinted Lenses more than make up for any extra coverage Masquerain could possibly get.
 
note as to why wouldn't you use Nidoking instead, who has BoltBeam coverage and can use Earth Power to hit Magneton/Lanturn and Flamethrower to hit Magneton/Shedinja. Nidoking is much more powerful and he just needs the extra speed, and Venomoth's ability to sleep makes it a much more effective QuiverPasser than Masquerain.

Venomoth is outclassed at sweeping IMO. It CAN do a mini-special sweep if the opponent is weakened enough, but you can just pass these boosts to Nidoking and watch the rampage ensue.
Sorry, but you can't actually think that Nidoking is a better sweeper than Venomoth when it comes to Quiver Dance? Are you forgetting that Nidoking is dependant on a whole other Pokemon to set up for it (I.e. Venomoth)? Such a Pokemon isn't a sweeper at all, they're a Baton Pass recipient.

And sure, Baton pass recipients can technically "sweep" but they aren't a sweeper in the traditional sense. Venomoth is actually much better than Nidoking at this in that it can sleep a counter, set up by itself and hit everything in the game for neutral damage with two moves, and all with higher base Spe and SpA (not taking into account Sheer Force)

And just to finish, almost anything can sweep with enough boosts passed to it. Sheer force Nidoking has the equivalent of Base 123 SpA (I think) when using a Sheer force boosted move, so passing a boost to something with Base 125 or more SpA will achieve the same outcome. So Nidoking isn't even the be-all and end-all of baton pass recipients either. It is a very good one though, but it's definitely not a "sweeper".

PS: To keep this thread on track, can we get away from the "MASQUERIAN IS OUTCLASSED BY VENOMOTH AT QUIVERDANCE PASSING" discussion (beating a dead horse tbh) and talk about ways that it ISN'T outclassed and can be used? The Rain team discussion seemed interesting...
 

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