Are we allowed to discuss religion yet?

[Alan]

So at my new job, since I'm a host I spend a lot of time standing around doing nothing except talking and chilling and getting paid for it. I work with this one guy who is pretty interesting, he dropped acid pretty much every day for about two years of his life and smokes weed but he is really religious, which I found to be almost ironic. He's got a kid and a wife and he's a pretty normal dude. I also work with these girls who are from some Christian group (I think its like a work exchange thing, its called Kaleo if anyone knows what the fuck that is) and they are super duper religious and don't drink, smoke etc just like the bible says so. We all got to talking about religion one day and I thought it was interesting how we all have different views about it, yet all basically believe the same general concept.

I kinda wanted to make this thread so we could all share/discuss our views, even though it will eventually lead to flaming and the eventual lock of the thread and we won't be able to discuss religion because we pretty much have a few people are really immature and/or 14.

Anywho, I guess I'll start and explain my views?

I don't believe in God. I believe that something exists, because to be honest for everything that happens to have happened, both in the short term and in the long term, by random chance, is just too astronomically unlikely to fathom. Like, the way that mankind evolved from monkeys and the way the Earth happens to exist in just the right area to sustain life and all that jazz, just doesn't seem like all of it could happen by random chance. I don't believe you are judged harshly by your sins. If God is supposed to be forgiving, than it seems like he wouldn't weigh a white lie you tell someone to protect them from themselves the same he would against cold-blooded murder. I believe strongly in karma and that everything evens out in the long run and that everything happens for a reason. So basically, I believe that if you lie to someone, it will come back to get you. If you help someone, you will be rewarded for it. If you lie to someone to help them, nothing will happen. I kind of feel like this is complicated and hard to understand, but it makes sense to me.

I'm pretty sure I left out a lot of stuff, but I'm kind of tired and I wanted to post this thread before I go to sleep and forget about it. Feel free to question why I believe the things I do or whatever you disagree with, but keep it to a degree of respectfulness and lets try to make a religion thread that doesn't get locked? Also, post your own views, I'm interested in what you guys think, since everyone is different.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

my ex was catholic and kinda retarded

I believe that something exists, because to be honest for everything that happens to have happened, both in the short term and in the long term, by random chance, is just too astronomically unlikely to fathom. Like, the way that mankind evolved from monkeys and the way the Earth happens to exist in just the right area to sustain life and all that jazz, just doesn't seem like all of it could happen by random chance.

this is a textbook case of the anthropic principle (but deism is still a pretty cool quasi-religion)

oh and i'm agnostic (best quasi-religion)

 

[ck49]

I think I'm agnostic.

Basically, I feel as though God may or may not exist. My explanation for believing 'god' exists is the Big Bang. Lets say it happened. What caused it to happen? Where did this concentrated blob of mass come from? If we have an explanation for that, why is that happening. Its impossible to fathom, and I wouldn't be surprised if a god exists and set of this chain of events.

Meanwhile, I don't believe god will effect us on earth in any way. If you have an exam, praying wont help outside of possibly the placebo effect. Studying will help. You cannot pray and expect god to help you. that is the easy way out, and I think the only way to be successful is hard work.

Is there a Heaven/hell? Maybe. I really don't know, but alot of the standard religeous stuff is plain stupid. Like what the first two posters said, who is more likely to go to heaven, a murderer who prays to god and was baptized, or a person who doesn't believe in god, but is caring and helps people. Obviously the latter. Also, people tend to respect nicer people more. Lastly, I really can't fathom an ever growing heaven/hell (since more and more people are bing born and die daily) and the only explanation i can see is rebirth, which in Hindu mythology, would be in a 'worse' life form if you are bad. cool, but Ill just stick to enjoying now and not worry about what may or may not exist.

Now, for a more rational explanation. Religion was originally made for two reasons, explanations and power. People didn't know why a certain mountain had a certain plant on it? Well, a god must have put it there. Now we know more and more and more religious facts are being dis proven. The other is power. People obviously want power. What better way than to take the explanations others gave for random things, say you know this divine thing, and then become rich, powerful, and famous. It makes sense, and people tend to be scared of the unknown, and would follow this person.

Now, here's a question for you: If you believe in god, your goal in life is to get to heaven. If you dont, what is your goal? This also is an explanation for people believing, hope and a reason for existence (as well as a person to blame). Personally, my goal is not to be rich or famous, but to make a lasting impact on the world, and be happy. AS such, many of the things which people do in the name of god I would do just for my own sake.

So yeah, those are my thoughts on god. Kinda long, but thats pretty much what I ponder when my parents force me to the temple because their parents force them there.

Oh yeah, that reminds me. "God" from religious texts is rather selfish. Why does he need us to donate food to prove our allegiance. People are starving, so why in the world does god want food when he created the whole universe. We shouldn't be wasting it. Eat it yourself or give it to someone who needs it. God, if he exists, is almighty, and is not selfish. If he is, screw it, no point in making him happy. If he's not, he shouldn't care if we dont sacrifice stuff and do rituals daily. Yeah, thats the end.

 

[Manafii101]

I try my hardest not to care about the big questions. I'm of the belief that they'll be answered upon death. Until then, I may as well try and live life as fully and happily as possible. A lot of mainstream religion is pretentious misleading propaganda used as an excuse for a social construct. Example? Christmas. Christ wasn't born Dec 25th 2011 years ago, he was born somewhere between A.D. 5 and B.C. 5. The church just decided to use the date of an already existing pagan festival in order to further propagate their beliefs. I am abhorrent of evangelism in almost any form. Why are kids taught "Religious Education" in schools when the only religion that is even mentioned is (in Australia anyways) Christianity? And even then, none of the different types or branches of Christianity are explored in any detail. It seems to promote ignorance and bigotry, fueled by an irrational hatred of change and differentiation.

 

[Matthew]

The best way to put my views on religion would be agnostic, though I'm not really sure how I want to go about putting religion into my daily life. On a regular given day I wouldn't give God a second thought, but on those down-and-out days I usually ask for His wisdom or something of that nature. It's actually a really odd thing whenever I think about asking God for a sign or for advice, because religion has never played a huge role in my life. Despite my baptism at a very early age I haven't really been around religion ever, not Sunday school, not even church on any given day. So I always found it a bit humorous whenever I turned to God for advice -- maybe I learned praying for television, I just cannot say.

While I think science is probably one of the most important fields anyone can go into, and I myself plan to go into, I just cannot stand when you meet people who are basically, "all about the science," and simply just say God (whatever entity you want) doesn't exist and be done with it. I'm not about to go get up-in-arms and start a debate with them, but the fact they're so certain really just ticks me off. It's just something I honestly can't explain.

I've read the English interpretation of the Koran and I've read the bible -- I was planning to read more but I guess I probably just got lazy with my religious studies. I really like the Buddhist and Hindu religion, but not in the 'oh man I'm so hipster I meditate 5 times a day due to my religion' kind of way. It's more of a curiosity than anything else. If I meditated in a completely quiet place for hours upon hours a day -- what would I learn? For the monks who have taken the Vow of Silence, what do they know? If they know something important how can they not talk about it? I know it's a very silly life dream, but I've always thought that staying in a monastery for a month (at minimum) would be a really awesome thing to do. I might get really sick of it and leave early on -- I might love it and stay longer, but it's sadly something I'm not going to be able to do until much later in life. Going into the medical field requires a lot of my future time sadly.

That's how I see religion, it's positive and it's negative. Much life most things in life!!

 

[MrIndigo]

this is a textbook case of the anthropic principle (but deism is still a pretty cool quasi-religion)

Not really. The anthropic principle is not "IT ALL HAPPENED FOR A REASON, IM SURE". It's more "The reason the universe has all these features that precisely support life is because if it didn't, we wouldn't be here to see it so we wouldn't know. Therefore, it is entirely without significance that the universe is just-so tweaked to support us."

 

[MrIndigo]

I also work with these girls who are from some Christian group (I think its like a work exchange thing, its called Kaleo if anyone knows what the fuck that is) and they are super duper religious and don't drink, smoke etc just like the bible says so.

Where does the bible say not to smoke or drink?

 

[TEA_DEMON]

i'm agnostic. if god exists, good for him. if he doesn't, i haven't wasted any time. i just really don't care about religion at all since basically the way i see it is that it causes a whole lot of unnecessary bullshit over something potentially equally bullshit, so i avoid it at all costs.

 

[Improbability]

I went to an Opus Dei catholic school for a good few years of my childhood. My parents being non-practising christians, you can expect the kind of treatment I received. Some fat kid even had the tenacity to tell me I was going to hell because I never went so Sunday church, to which I replied with something along the lines of "Looks like I'll be seeing you there, only you'll be doing time for gluttony". So I began to hate religion and what it stood for. I hated the hypocrisy in the system; I saw some of the worst sets of morals I've ever seen in some of the most astout catholics I've ever seen. Generalizing is bad, but this completely turned me off the whole picture.
Anyway a few years later and I'm at a different school. I think I'd call myself agnostic. After I rid myself of all the brainwashing, I started to question things. Being what I like to think of as a rational and scientific person, I started to feel more and more strongly that religion is just a cover up for what science cant prove at the time. One of the richest arguments I remember having with a teacher was over evolution, to which he replied "A day to god can be as long as he wanted it to be".
So yeah. Not a big believer of god anymore.

 

[black_cotton]

Yep I've been raised in a Catholic Family, so I passed through baptism and everything. And it was pretty much whatever, until I was like 13.

After that age there were some stuff I couldn't buy about religion, specially with what I learned from History. All that episodes make me question it, were those one that did atrocious things, the choosen ones from God? What make them different?Why? And a lot more of them...

That's when I started questioning, but the answer didn't come (well not in the way I was expecting), which gave me more and more questions. After a while, I realized that pretty much nobody was too sure what they were talking about or even believing.

So I started to follow my conscience and what I think is the most correct. That makes me a non-practising christians. I guess.

Is funny that, despite what i said until now, religion has never been a great part of my life. But once in a while I ask for God wisdom.

Which pretty much everyone around me does when they seem lost. I once read a article in a cientifical magazine, thinking if God exists or if is something that we as Human create just for felling that something beyond/superior and that idea is just there to conforts us. So is a human necessity to believe in something superior or is just because that entity actually exist that we believe in it? Of course, there was no answer and I sure no one in the entire world can come with a satisfactory one.

I think religion as a whole is to give you peace, and is very much personal, because everyone is looking for different answers. So no matter which one you choose (or none at all), as long as it give you internal peace.

 

[billymills]

i'm agnostic. if god exists, good for him. if he doesn't, i haven't wasted any time. i just really don't care about religion at all since basically the way i see it is that it causes a whole lot of unnecessary bullshit over something potentially equally bullshit, so i avoid it at all costs.

I think the term you're looking for is indifferent. Agnostic relates to not being able to prove god's existence or non-existence. Everyone should be agnostic, as long as they're sane.

 

[Tobes]

Indifferent describes me perfectly, I guess. I don't believe in God, and if he exists then he's an asshole and I want nothing to do with him. I just really don't get how people can claim there's a kind and loving God with all the horrible shit that happens on a day-to-day basis all over the world. So I guess I'd like people who do believe that there's a gentle, caring God to weigh in on why you believe that. I'd also be curious as to why you believe in heaven and hell, because neither of those make sense to me.

 

[AlphaJolt]

I just really don't get how people can claim there's a kind and loving God with all the horrible shit that happens on a day-to-day basis all over the world. So I guess I'd like people who do believe that there's a gentle, caring God to weigh in on why you believe that.

The reason that so much bad stuff happens is because in the beginning, man was punished for disobeying God (I'm assuming most of you at least know the story of the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil). The world had been paradise, but because of man's sin, we were punished and separated from God. Bad things in life that happen are part of this punishment. God is a holy God and can't stand sin, which is why we were separated. It is not that He likes punishing us, because the Bible makes it clear that He doesn't. Even though Jesus died for our sins, every human still sins and is not perfect. That is why everyone, not just unbelievers, still have crap happen in their lives.

I'm running short on time but i'd love to talk on IRC sometime if you have more questions or you want me to elaborate more on something. Hope this helped.

 

[Zacchaeus]

I don't believe in God. I believe that something exists, because to be honest for everything that happens to have happened, both in the short term and in the long term, by random chance, is just too astronomically unlikely to fathom. Like, the way that mankind evolved from monkeys and the way the Earth happens to exist in just the right area to sustain life and all that jazz, just doesn't seem like all of it could happen by random chance. I don't believe you are judged harshly by your sins. If God is supposed to be forgiving, than it seems like he wouldn't weigh a white lie you tell someone to protect them from themselves the same he would against cold-blooded murder. I believe strongly in karma and that everything evens out in the long run and that everything happens for a reason. So basically, I believe that if you lie to someone, it will come back to get you. If you help someone, you will be rewarded for it. If you lie to someone to help them, nothing will happen. I kind of feel like this is complicated and hard to understand, but it makes sense to me.

The thing is that God is indeed supposed to be forgiving, but the reason behind something as simple as a lie being evil is that He gave you all of what you have now. If your parents raised you well and then asked you to take the trashbag outside, it's really not that big of a deal but just because they've given you so much, you refusing to do it in return would have a greater consequence. And when it comes to the hierarchy (or lack thereof) of sins, there isn't much of a reason why specified in the Bible (to the best of my knowledge) but I believe that all sins are viewed indiscriminately because it makes the smaller ones more serious, it disallows us from creating a measurement to keep track of how sinful (or not) we are being, and it doesn't favor one geographical or ethnic group over another (for example: in some cultures, you could be mutilated or even put to death for stealing, while in others you could serve a short term of community service; so some groups of people would be much more likely to steal than others, but since stealing isn't weighed heavier than other sins, that doesn't put one group at a disadvantage)

 

[Nilf]

I think the term you're looking for is indifferent. Agnostic relates to not being able to prove god's existence or non-existence. Everyone should be agnostic, as long as they're sane.

Huh? I would say I'm atheist. I don't believe in God and reject the possibility he exists full stop. I could be wrong though I suppose... thankfully though I'm not some omniscient being who's always right!

Surely as an agnostic if you're unsure as to whether god exists or not as you can't prove it, does that mean you are open to the prospect of the invisible pink unicorn orbiting the earth simply because you cannot prove nor disprove it? You cannot (as far as I know?) prove or disprove Star Wars didn't really take place a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, but it seems silly to me to not just reject that as a possibility full stop. As I said there is a possibility I could be wrong, but it seems to me so infinitesimally that it is negligible and not worth considering.

Sorry by the way if I'm confusing definitions of atheism or agnosticism etc, this is just my understanding of it...

 

[Dogfish44]

The reason that so much bad stuff happens is because in the beginning, man was punished for disobeying God (I'm assuming most of you at least know the story of the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil).

Adam and Eve were tempted into this by Lucifer - who's existence was the fault of God and who could've been stopped by God. Why didn't our omnipotent lord then stop Lucifer from trying to ruin his creation? And if God is omniscient, you can't say he never foresaw this, but he knew from the start that humanity would be doomed unless he intervened - which should be easy for him, but he didn't.

The world had been paradise, but because of man's sin, we were punished and separated from God. Bad things in life that happen are part of this punishment.

So God punishes us and keeps us seperate because of a mistake he made in controlling Lucifer? Really loving.

God is a holy God and can't stand sin, which is why we were separated. It is not that He likes punishing us, because the Bible makes it clear that He doesn't. Even though Jesus died for our sins, every human still sins and is not perfect.

What about the newborn children who die before they've lived a day? And how about those who pray for forgiveness on a day/weekly basis? If God forgives them, why must he punish them afterwards?

That is why everyone, not just unbelievers, still have crap happen in their lives.

Ad Homenium. Non-believers aren't evil, which part of the Decalogue have they broken? You make it sound as if the only way to be a good, moral person is to follow God, which is not true.

I'm running short on time but i'd love to talk on IRC sometime if you have more questions or you want me to elaborate more on something. Hope this helped.

Again, you've given fallacious reasoning to the existence of a caring God. Can you actually give more reasons why God punishes us, or is that gonna be it?

 

[Alan]

Where does the bible say not to smoke or drink?

I'm not sure of the exact verse, because I only know like 3 verses in the whole bible and one of them is John 3:16 which barely counts, but I'm like 99% sure there is a verse against "harmful substances entering your body" (which is of course loosely interpreted and incredibly vague) and the church I used to go to pretty much told me that includes alcohol and all illegal drugs and cigarettes and semen until marriage. I didn't pay much attention in church so I'm not the right one to ask.

Also, I wanted to include this since I left it out of my OP, but I do believe in a heaven and hell. Good people are rewarded, bad people are not. I don't believe in a points system based on good deeds and bad deeds, because I also believe people are either inherently good or bad, and people do not change.

I pretty much agree with coolking's views/explanation on why religion exists though. I don't really agree with the whole organized religion aspect of religion (???) that says you need to attend church and pay homage etc etc. If I believe or don't believe that should be enough right?

 

[masterful]

I used to be Agnostic, simply by merit of the fact that I didn't know enough to be able to firmly claim the existence or lack thereof of a higher power. Since then, I have grown, over time, to be a firm believer that the likelihood that a supreme being is so incredibly small it is not even imaginable. Someone earlier brought up the point that for all what's happened to have happened out of random chance is highly unlikely.First off, I'd like to point out that evolution is not random, and the fact that we evolved from our previous forms is only because the vast majority of beings who were not suited for their changing environment would die off before they could reproduce, leaving only the most fit to pass on their genes. Also, if you think it's so unlikely something like the Big Bang occurred out of random chance, what would you say were the odds that an omnipotent being that existed outside all the laws of the universe and could reate from nothing would spontaneously come into existence? Perhaps out of all the many planets in the universe, Earth truly is the only one capable of supporting life as we know it. For all we know, those are pretty damn good odds.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

People go under the assumption that the Christian/Judea god is perfect, fact is he isn't. If we where indeed made in the image of God, that may mean God is just as hostile, rash, and blunt, as us.

It could also be a fact that perhaps our idea of morality is actually reaching too far. Like it or not, if God thinks murdering in his name is fine, but not sex out of marriage, there is nothing you can do about it. He is God after all, he can make up what is right and wrong regardless of what we think. I mean if you tried to have a ideological argument against God, it wouldn’t work, he would just say "Hey I am God, I make the rules."

Considering that, I don’t think God is a bad guy, he just does what needs to be done, regardless of what you think about it, because he doesn’t care. He is kinda like a Grumpy grandpa, that’s a nice guy but still wants things his way, and his way only. With his years of experience he can teach you many great moral lessons, but still yells at you when your draws fall too low.

 

[Cartoons!]

Feel free to question why I believe the things I do or whatever you disagree with

I don't know which school of thought you're coming from, as there are many who put forth that point of view, some mainstream, others more esoteric. But why do you believe what you do?

As I've stated in this forum before, I'm a Christian, super duper-style, and since repenting and coming to faith a year and a half ago, I've had the promises of the Bible manifested in my life along with enough experiences to accommodate the supernatural.

At the risk of stepping on some toes, I do think the Catholic church has done more to tarnish the gospel of Christ than any other organization in the last 2000 years, because it has come bearing the name of Jesus. People who have read the New Testament are probably aware that the RC's bloody history and papal assertions look nothing like the early church or even the church today. That is, the church in places where the gospel is spreading like a fire, with persecution only adding to the fuel. Christians today are persecuted, tortured, imprisoned and killed on a daily basis and yet it is in these hotspots that the body is growing most rapidly.

Most of the historical objections to Christianity are easily resolved (mithraic origins, the bible's been changed etc...) but I do empathize with the emotional barriers (the problem of evil in the world, hell). I'd love to answer these individually via PM or in this thread, but I do think a lot of it just comes from a misunderstanding of the gospel.

People often believe the bible is a method for getting the masses subjugated. But the most enslaved examples of human society have existed at times when the bible has been outlawed or limited in some way. Think the middle ages (bibles only available in latin to a largely illiterate population) or the murderous communist regimes of the last century and this. The bible,however, time and again, in both old and new testaments, testify to how corrupt and depraved human government is and encourages us to obey God rather than man when there is a conflict, which is, like, all the time.

Another misunderstanding concerns the role of the law passed down from Moses. The point of the law was to make us aware how far short we fall from God's standard of cosmic perfection (also that those to whom the law was not given will be judged by the standard of their conscience). He very well knows our shortcomings, so, despite being not obligated to do so at all, provided a scapegoat in His Son, Jesus Christ, to pay the penalty on our behalf. God's love and mercy will not trump His justice and holiness, but that He went through the trouble at all, on my behalf, to love me despite how much I hated Him blows me away...

 

[Bynine]

God is our teacher and life is a test. The decisions we make effect our grade. The higher grade we get, the better afterlife we get.

That's my philosophy and I'm sticking to it.

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

I believe that the afterlife and god is just a giant fucking roulette wheel and could be anything, so I go off what we know and just stick to being an atheist.

Knowing that there are an infinite amount of ways for any path of life to be screwed when it comes to the afterlife pretty much what allows me to do all of my relentless trolling with no real remorse.

 

[Eggbert]

Mankind didn't evolve from monkeys, we just had a common ancestor

Regarding the whole

and the way the Earth happens to exist in just the right area to sustain life and all that jazz, just doesn't seem like all of it could happen by random chance.

thing, think of it this way: Earth has life because it is in the right area and conditions, and none of the other planets have that. It has nothing to do with chance, it just happens to have the right conditions otherwise it would be just like the other planets.

I seriously want some proof of a god besides these speculations that say the world is complicated god must exist, because those don't prove anything at all. I would have no problems believing in a god if I just had some certainty...I found this on a website and I agree with it entirely:

 

[ck49]

Masterful brought up another thing I've debated about before. How do we know we are the only life forms in the universe. I would think that, even though chances are we will never meet, life is constantly occurring and dieing out in the infinite vastness of space. Of course, they may not evolve well enough and die out soon, but then again, say we aren't the only inhabited planet in the universe. Does god follow them too? And if there is one more, who's to say there aren't 100's more, all with trillions of life forms on them? God really judges the trillion organisms that die every minute in the universe?

In other words, if an interactive god exists, chances are, other life forms in the universe don't exist. I personally believe that other life forms do exist but we will never meet them since space is pretty goddamn huge. As such an interactive god who judges and helps us probably doesn't exist.

Agreeing with eggbert and some others who posted.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Regarding the whole thing, think of it this way: Earth has life because it is in the right area and conditions, and none of the other planets have that. It has nothing to do with chance, it just happens to have the right conditions otherwise it would be just like the other planets.

Its more then right conditions. You have to consider that most solar system that we have found, that could harbor another Earth, and have the right conditions (not too close to the center of the Galaxy, Goldilocks zone, right size sun, etc), have something terribly wrong with them. A few systems have a Jupiter size planet where earth should be! Many planets in the zone are to big, or too small, or just don't even exist. We have found a few planets that contain all the wrong elements, making them another Venus! Also life on earth needs a magnetic field, which was formed by an interplanetary collision, of to decent size planets, something not too common. Everything I just labeled does indeed come down to luck, either by the randomness of the big bag, or the massive sun that existed in the system before us. So even if your in the right zone, there is no guarantee life will form, due to the generally unlucky universe.