np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Pocket]

Pretty much all mentioned. There is also Specially defensive Bronzong. Specially defensive Rest Talk Heatran can soak up Specs Hurricanes and could survive a Focus Blast. If you want a more offensive answer, there is Raikou, Chople Berry Ttar (w/ Rock Slide or Stone-Edge), and of course SR.

 

[alphatron]

Kefka, KurashiDragon said that gastrodon can be an anti metagame pokemon against the three major weathers. Gastrodon is great against rain and sand. It cannot handle drought.

Swampert is pretty lousy. I gave up on him when I reliazed that a sun boosted hp fire (stronger than ice beam) couldn't kill a breloom when I was running max special attack EVs and a nuetral nature. Screw that. I only wished that gastrodon learned SR though...

Rotom-H makes a good check to both Thundurus and Tornadus.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Kefka, KurashiDragon said that gastrodon can be an anti metagame pokemon against the three major weathers. Gastrodon is great against rain and sand. It cannot handle drought.

Swampert is pretty lousy. I gave up on him when I reliazed that a sun boosted hp fire (stronger than ice beam) couldn't kill a breloom when I was running max special attack EVs and a nuetral nature. Screw that. I only wished that gastrodon learned SR though...

Rotom-H makes a good check to both Thundurus and Tornadus.

But, didn't I say that? Hence why you have 5 other pokemon to deal with Drought? Balloon Tran was an example :L

Swampert is just meh.
I used him and he could tank crap, but he still couldn't hit hard enough even when EV'd, he gets walled by freakin everything, and he has to rely on just Lefties...Gastrodon > Swampert

Rotom-H? DAT SR WEAKNESSS!
Though I ran Rotom-C over Rotom-W, so idk.
I'm gonna use Bronzong though...my team needs another steel.
Thx guys.

 

[iSkittles]

Besides the obvious Lati twins and Gene Bros, are there some really underrated offensive threats that are not getting enough attention? (Not including weather abusers just because they're kind of obvious)

 

[Demoness]

Well, although I havn't used him in a while, Gallade was actually quite good when I used him. I used a simple Life Orb set with Close Combat, Zen Headbutt, Shadow Sneak, and Ice Punch. shaving off more then half from Latios trying to switch in was always fun, and Shadow Sneaking them right after was great. It did require a good amount of prediction to work well, but other then that, it was fun using.

 

[rickatick]

Hydreigon, slap a life orb on him and you can tear things up. He's got useful resistances and an interesting typing, I like him.

 

[IcyMan28]

CB Staraptor, hands down. Less knowledgeable people lol when they see him in TP, but are quickly corrected when Ferrothorn takes 80% from Brave Bird and Gliscor takes like 70% (I was running Adamant Reckless CB).

Brave Bird / Close Combat / Quick Attack / U-Turn was the set. You don't need a normal attack because Thundurus is devastated by BB regardless while Zapdos, Emolga, and Rotom-S aren't nearly as common. Quick Attack is nice priority while Close Combat and U-Turn patch up the holes. But honestly, CB Reckless Brave Bird is all you need.

 

[ssbbm]

Am I the only one that thinks that Politoed (or, more specifically, SpecsPolitoed) is broken? I mean you can just spam Hydro Pump and, if the Pokemon isn't a blob or immune to water, you have a guaranteed 50% of off a Pokemon. It's more powerful than Specs Latios' Draco Meteor for goodness sakes. -______-;;

 

[SJCrew]

Swampert is pretty lousy. I gave up on him when I reliazed that a sun boosted hp fire (stronger than ice beam) couldn't kill a breloom when I was running max special attack EVs and a nuetral nature. Screw that. I only wished that gastrodon learned SR though...

Why the hell are you using a Water-type with low base Sp. Att and HP Fire on a Sun team anyway, trying to beat a faster Grass type that can just Seed Bomb you for the OHKO? If your goal is to "surprise" Swampert's checks, be smart and use Choice Band. It operates on Swampert's significantly higher Attack stat, can weaken or beat most of its checks with minimal prediction, and works against not just Breloom (Ice Punch has a slightly higher chance to OHKO it at 252 HP), but against everything in all weather conditions.

 

[Pocket]

Yea, I'd love to see Ferrothorn switching into Swampert only to lose close to half its HP from Earthquake (Or even risking an OHKO from Superpower)! Pretty much the same story for Forretress, Slowbro, and Jellicent. Rotom-W and Bulky Gyarados both risks getting 2HKOed by Stone-Edge. Even the bulky CMer Latias gets 2HKOed by Avalanche / Ice Punch. Under Rain, Waterfall 2HKOs Skarmory.

Of course CB pert wouldn't have perfect prediction, but it has the potential to break walls.

 

[SJCrew]

Also, even though CB Pert works in all weather conditions, I highly recommend it on a Rain team. That way you can just come in on something you check and go apeshit with Waterfall. And when Torrent activates? Whoa nelly.

 

[Cinccino]

Am I the only one that thinks that Politoed (or, more specifically, SpecsPolitoed) is broken? I mean you can just spam Hydro Pump and, if the Pokemon isn't a blob or immune to water, you have a guaranteed 50% of off a Pokemon. It's more powerful than Specs Latios' Draco Meteor for goodness sakes. -______-;;

By that logic every water pokemon with Specs Hydro Pump in rain are broken too.

 

[jiggz16]

That's why i said half the abusers or the majority.Because most of the times the majority gives you evidence that you need and makes the rules.

If you need half of the abusers of Drizzle to be broken in order to make Drizzle itself broken you are foolish. Half or majority is such an arbitrary, ridiculous, and in my opinion, extremely large number that makes no sense for a number of reasons. Even if we remove Magikarp, Feebas, and Surskit from the list of Swift Swimmers, we're still left with 19 Pokemon. Add in arguably all OU Steel types, Politoed, Thundurus, Tornadus, Dragonite, Starmie, Parasect, Toxicroak, Blastoise, Tentacruel, Pelipper, and Swanna, then subtract Heatran and Excadrill, and we have grand total of 39 "rain abusers." (Keep in mind this excludes most OU viable Water types and is therefore complete BS, I just made it up for the sake of argument) If you then decide to order said Pokemon by usage you would find that Blastoise ranks 20th according to the May stats. So basically what you're saying is that we need to ban BLASTOISE, and all Pokemon that are better than Blastoise under permanent rain before we ban Drizzle. Sure, some of them in my list may not be OU material, like Swanna and Pelipper, but if we ban Dragonite (lol, 4th on my completely BS list of "rain abusers") one of them might move up to replace it or, you could instead include things like Rotom-W, Gastrodon, and Swampert.

I am much more in agreement with KurashiDragon with the idea that we set a number of Pokemon that need to be broken under Drizzle in order to ban Drizzle in general, with the number hovering between his suggested 5-8. If the number reaches and/or exceeds this point then Drizzle has clearly become the culprit and must be the broken factor. The idea that only the lower half of "rain abusers," under any context, are not broken seems pretty asinine to me.

Having said that, I still do not see Drizzle in it's current form broken at all, even with Thundurus running rampant. I'd say that it's on the same level as Excadrill, which I also do not see as broken. However, I do see both Thundurus (by extension Drizzle) and Excadrill to be somewhat "overcentralizing," in that I need to carry several Pokes that work well together to not only take care of these two threats but to also help accomplish the goals of the entire team.

 

[Royal Flush]

Am I the only one that thinks that Politoed (or, more specifically, SpecsPolitoed) is broken? I mean you can just spam Hydro Pump and, if the Pokemon isn't a blob or immune to water, you have a guaranteed 50% of off a Pokemon. It's more powerful than Specs Latios' Draco Meteor for goodness sakes. -______-;;

It just happens to be Toed's best set imo, usually overlooked by most of the players who stick with bulky Toed. I'd consider underrated, but not really broken as you rely on 80 acc and well, he's slow.

 

[SJCrew]

I happen to think Scarf Politoed is better than Specs. You trade your awesomely unnecessary wallbreaking power for the ability to simply attack twice on things that would normally go faster than you and kill you the next turn. Also, what do you expect to do when you change the weather on Excadrill? Die to Earthquake? Fuck no, just slap a Scarf on him and hit him with Surf. Scarftar trying to check you? lol. Hit him with Surf.

Trying to get greedy with your power is an easy way to lose, as I quickly discovered when trying out a Specs Starmie earlier today and getting checked by about the five or so million things immune to Water that like to pop up every now and then to beat Drizzle. Starmie is not famous for its awesome wallbreaking ability, it's famous for its impeccable Speed and coverage. Go LO or go home.

And while we're on the whole "power vs. utility" argument: always always always use Surf on a Drizzle team. Too many matches are lost to Hydro Pump misses in situations where Surf is guaranteed to get the job done. It's also easier to calculate your moves in a match when almost all of your moves are guaranteed to work. EX: Rather than Latios taking ~37% with a 20% chance to take no damage, I'll take a 100% chance of dealing 30%. The fight against hax starts in teambuilding.

 

[BurningMan]

I happen to think Scarf Politoed is better than Specs. You trade your awesomely unnecessary wallbreaking power for the ability to simply attack twice on things that would normally go faster than you and kill you the next turn. Also, what do you expect to do when you change the weather on Excadrill? Die to Earthquake? Fuck no, just slap a Scarf on him and hit him with Surf. Scarftar trying to check you? lol. Hit him with Surf.

Well both got their Flaws i actually think that a specs set with max HP/Max SpA (imo Spe EVs are almost never worth it the only thing notably you outspeed is SDef Jirachi who is likely to neuter your speed on the switch in anyway and you can't OHKO it, while HP EVs offer you alot more bulk that allow for some misprediction) is the best if your team really needs the rain (e.g. focusing around a sweep of something that uses Hurricane/Thunder) to accomplish its goal, while scarftoed is better if your team only benefits from rain more than actually than being reliant on it (things like Scizor etc.).

Trying to get greedy with your power is an easy way to lose, as I quickly discovered when trying out a Specs Starmie earlier today and getting checked by about the five or so million things immune to Water that like to pop up every now and then to beat Drizzle. Starmie is not famous for its awesome wallbreaking ability, it's famous for its impeccable Speed and coverage. Go LO or go home.

Seconding the starmie part, but one could actually have seen that coming as starmie relies alot on its great coverage moves to be effective.

And while we're on the whole "power vs. utility" argument: always always always use Surf on a Drizzle team. Too many matches are lost to Hydro Pump misses in situations where Surf is guaranteed to get the job done. It's also easier to calculate your moves in a match when almost all of your moves are guaranteed to work. EX: Rather than Latios taking ~37% with a 20% chance to take no damage, I'll take a 100% chance of dealing 30%. The fight against hax starts in teambuilding.

Meh it depends on the pokemon starmie really seems to need the power of Hydro Pump, especially in parts of the matches where its not raining, but you are right its often dangerous to rely on low accuracy moves a lot.

 

[spweasel]

This topic seems to have gone off topic more than a little bit. Not that I have any problem with that.

In my opinion, ScarfToed kinda needs the extra power of Hydro Pump, while LO Starmie doesn't. While it's certainly not the only matchup to consider, Modest ScarfToed's Hydro Pump and Timid LO Starmie's Surf both just barely OHKO Thundurus/Tornadus on a minimum damage roll. Politoed is also much better at taking a hit than Starmie as well, so misses are a lot less fatal.

Either way, I avoid having more than one Hydro Pumper per team. That's just begging for hax.

 

[jas61292]

If you need half of the abusers of Drizzle to be broken in order to make Drizzle itself broken you are foolish. Half or majority is such an arbitrary, ridiculous, and in my opinion, extremely large number that makes no sense for a number of reasons. Even if we remove Magikarp, Feebas, and Surskit from the list of Swift Swimmers, we're still left with 19 Pokemon. Add in arguably all OU Steel types, Politoed, Thundurus, Tornadus, Dragonite, Starmie, Parasect, Toxicroak, Blastoise, Tentacruel, Pelipper, and Swanna, then subtract Heatran and Excadrill, and we have grand total of 39 "rain abusers." (Keep in mind this excludes most OU viable Water types and is therefore complete BS, I just made it up for the sake of argument) If you then decide to order said Pokemon by usage you would find that Blastoise ranks 20th according to the May stats. So basically what you're saying is that we need to ban BLASTOISE, and all Pokemon that are better than Blastoise under permanent rain before we ban Drizzle. Sure, some of them in my list may not be OU material, like Swanna and Pelipper, but if we ban Dragonite (lol, 4th on my completely BS list of "rain abusers") one of them might move up to replace it or, you could instead include things like Rotom-W, Gastrodon, and Swampert.

I'm not going to say I completely agree with alexwolf's majority idea, but I will say it makes more sense than anything anyone else has said. Any other number would simply be arbitrary and have no good reasoning behind it.

But I think the more important issue you brought up here is the definition of an "abuser." One thing we need people to understand is that we should be looking only at abusers, and not at regular users. Sure plenty of guys like Scizor love rain because it helps them defensively. However, while it might use the rain to its advantage, it does not significantly affect anything about it. It would still function the same way outside of rain and probably don't gain any usage because of it. If a normal user like that ends up being broken, it should be banned itself, as Drizzle would not be a factor that made it broken.

Abusers, on the other hand are only those that significantly benefit from Drizzle and would be substantially worse off without it. These are guys like Swift Swim Pokemon, Tornadus and Hydration Vaporeon (I would not include Thunder spammers or other Hurricane users, as for the most part they have other roles or can just as easily use the fantastic move called Thunderbolt).

Once you narrow down who is actually abusing rain, and then seek out the broken Pokemon, you will see how few Pokemon are actually made broken by rain. It might make many Pokemon slightly better, but that is just a passive effect that shapes the metagame (like sand damage in gen4). Rain is not actually increasing the usage of many of the other users.

 

[SJCrew]

But see, if you're using Modest Scarftoed, you're missing out on Raikou, Starmie, and Dugtrio, three Pokemon you really don't have any business being slower than, especially with a non-bulky Toed (I've actually seen a few Dugtrio around, and it's very useful in this metagame, so it's a legitimate case). Even if Pokemon faster than Thundurus are no longer all that common, it's better to have those options covered so that you don't lose to some nub that shows up with a Sceptile or Zebstrika.

 

[Pocket]

I agree with jas61292 on the main point. When addressing Rain abusers in the strictest sense, we are talking about Pokemon whose usage would drastically alter due to the presence or absence of rain. Sure Dragonite and Ferrothorn benfits from Rain, but by no means would they lose their viability by the loss of perfectly accurate Hurricanes and Thunders and the weakening of Fire weakness.

In OU the following are probably what I consider Rain Abusers:
1) Politoed
2) Thundurus
3) Toxicroak
4) Vaporeon
5) Tentacruel
6) Tornadus
7) Empoleon
8) Manaphy
9) Suicune
10 - 20) The 11 Swift Swimmers listed before

Arguably, Tentacruel and Vaporeon may not fit the definition of Rain Abusers that I have just mentioned, since they will still be viable for there utility in Rapid Spin / Toxic Spikes and Wish / Baton Pass / Roar, respectively but they do have Abilities that greatly benefit them in Rain. Rotom-W, Starmie, and Cloyster are arguably Rain Abusers since they are offensive Water mons that are truly enhanced by 50% greater damage output for their main STAB move. I could have put them on the list, but I figured that their high placement in OU is more due to their individual merit than due to Drizzle. I included Suicune and Empoleon, though, because they were in the lower OU, and they may very well lose enough usage to drop a tier if Rain is removed.

 

[Ada]

Trying to get greedy with your power is an easy way to lose, as I quickly discovered when trying out a Specs Starmie earlier today and getting checked by about the five or so million things immune to Water that like to pop up every now and then to beat Drizzle. Starmie is not famous for its awesome wallbreaking ability, it's famous for its impeccable Speed and coverage. Go LO or go home.

I thought Starmie was famous for being Pursuit bait and getting 2HKOed by moves it even resists :P

And while we're on the whole "power vs. utility" argument: always always always use Surf on a Drizzle team. Too many matches are lost to Hydro Pump misses in situations where Surf is guaranteed to get the job done. It's also easier to calculate your moves in a match when almost all of your moves are guaranteed to work. EX: Rather than Latios taking ~37% with a 20% chance to take no damage, I'll take a 100% chance of dealing 30%. The fight against hax starts in teambuilding.

While I respect your arguments and think you’re a great player, recently, I’ve found myself disagreeing with many of your posts…

On the “power vs. utility” argument, I think it depends a lot on the Pokemon, but generally I feel the extra power is more important. I’m a true believer in the fact that hax will balance itself out in the long run even if you do lose a few games to hax. To me, winning in the long run means selecting the best moves for each Pokemon whenever possible, so if say Hydro Pump, is better than Surf 8 times out of 10, then that’s good enough for me. Sometimes the extra power is what’s needed to break through a dedicated wall or counter. I think it’s called "hustling" (Hipmonlee wrote a nice guide that explains it better than I could). The only time I’d opt for Surf over Hydro Pump is on a bulky set up sweeper like 4th gen CroCune, since at +6, it doesn’t really matter either way so the accuracy becomes more important (or PP).

 

[Pocket]

When -30 ranking points are at stake, sometimes you can't afford to rely heavily on high-risk moves. Yes, the extra power will allow a Sweeper to muscle its way through a counter. Ideally, however, you have an alternative plan in damaging the wall, so that Surf can 2HKO the wall on the switch 100% of the time rather than 64% of the time.

And honestly in a rainy environment, so many mons are going to die to a boosted Surf. You may want Hydro Pump for the opponent's wall, but then you would have to risk missing against monsters that are guarantee kills. If you are going to use Hydro Pump on the likes of Politoed, having Surf as a secondary Water move wouldn't be an absurd idea. Hydro Pump can dent a few things early-game, while Surf will net you the 100% kills.

Ironically, it was also an RBY tutor that has taught me SJCrew's concept of minimizing hax. RBY is notorious for the CHs and misses, but one way to minimize hax is to use accurate moves over powerful ones. Naturally, my tutor's Starmie opts for Surf rather than Hydro Pump. I'd have to say, his solid performance in RBY may be contributed in part due to this. Especially when accounting accuracy, Hydro Pump's damage output is 96 (120 * 0.8), which comes very near to Surf's power.

 

[SJCrew]

On the “power vs. utility” argument, I think it depends a lot on the Pokemon, but generally I feel the extra power is more important. I’m a true believer in the fact that hax will balance itself out in the long run even if you do lose a few games to hax. To me, winning in the long run means selecting the best moves for each Pokemon whenever possible, so if say Hydro Pump, is better than Surf 8 times out of 10, then that’s good enough for me. Sometimes the extra power is what’s needed to break through a dedicated wall or counter. I think it’s called "hustling" (Hipmonlee wrote a nice guide that explains it better than I could). The only time I’d opt for Surf over Hydro Pump is on a bulky set up sweeper like 4th gen CroCune, since at +6, it doesn’t really matter either way so the accuracy becomes more important (or PP).

You're missing one vital part of my argument though: Surf should always used over Hydro Pump on a Drizzle team. I understand how weak Starmie is and how things like Surf can miss vital KOs on the likes of Scizor without it. As long is Rain is up, however, missing KOs is just not an issue. For example, a Choice Band Scizor has no chance of surviving LO Surf in the Rain after Stealth Rock damage (minimum of 87.8%). Standard Rotom-W has good chance of being 2HKOed by that very same Surf after Rocks (43.2% - 51.3%), though you could just as easily muscle through it with a stronger Thunder (49.1% - 57.9%). Heck, even if you're going Specs and just want to 2HKO Latios using Hydro Pump, it's not necessary because Surf into Ice Beam always 2HKOs, and so does two Specs Surfs after Stealth Rock damage.

Also, I trust you understand that we've come a long way since RBY, where things like weather boosting your offensive power doesn't factor in when assessing risk. A 142 BP move hitting 100% of the time with no drawbacks was a dream in that day and age, and I don't think competitive Pokemon has really progressed to a point where it's no longer sufficient.

 

[alexwolf]

If you need half of the abusers of Drizzle to be broken in order to make Drizzle itself broken you are foolish. Half or majority is such an arbitrary, ridiculous, and in my opinion, extremely large number that makes no sense for a number of reasons. Even if we remove Magikarp, Feebas, and Surskit from the list of Swift Swimmers, we're still left with 19 Pokemon. Add in arguably all OU Steel types, Politoed, Thundurus, Tornadus, Dragonite, Starmie, Parasect, Toxicroak, Blastoise, Tentacruel, Pelipper, and Swanna, then subtract Heatran and Excadrill, and we have grand total of 39 "rain abusers." (Keep in mind this excludes most OU viable Water types and is therefore complete BS, I just made it up for the sake of argument) If you then decide to order said Pokemon by usage you would find that Blastoise ranks 20th according to the May stats. So basically what you're saying is that we need to ban BLASTOISE, and all Pokemon that are better than Blastoise under permanent rain before we ban Drizzle. Sure, some of them in my list may not be OU material, like Swanna and Pelipper, but if we ban Dragonite (lol, 4th on my completely BS list of "rain abusers") one of them might move up to replace it or, you could instead include things like Rotom-W, Gastrodon, and Swampert.

I am much more in agreement with KurashiDragon with the idea that we set a number of Pokemon that need to be broken under Drizzle in order to ban Drizzle in general, with the number hovering between his suggested 5-8. If the number reaches and/or exceeds this point then Drizzle has clearly become the culprit and must be the broken factor. The idea that only the lower half of "rain abusers," under any context, are not broken seems pretty asinine to me.

Having said that, I still do not see Drizzle in it's current form broken at all, even with Thundurus running rampant. I'd say that it's on the same level as Excadrill, which I also do not see as broken. However, I do see both Thundurus (by extension Drizzle) and Excadrill to be somewhat "overcentralizing," in that I need to carry several Pokes that work well together to not only take care of these two threats but to also help accomplish the goals of the entire team.

Where did you get that?I am reffering to the bolded sentence!Why is Drizzle the culprit?
Even if 8 pokes get banned under Drizzle(which is almost impossible)who told you that drizzle is the only common factor these pokes share?
All of these pokes share also a water Stab and the SS ability so don't be so quick to accuse Drizzle...
And i say that avery abuser that will be banned under drizzle will share the ability SS,because this is the case...
Thundurus,if it proves to be broken,is broken on its own as we all know!And no other rain abuser without SS as its ability has been nominated since now...So explain me pls why do you want to ban the common factor drizzle and not the common factor water stab or SS?
Also as i have told before the majority of the abusers seems to me the less arbitary number to set for the banning of drizzle...Why?Because we always make conclusions based on the majority!I am not agreing it is the perfect number but right now it seems to me the less arbiatary...

Also i agree with Pocket and Jas for the drizzle abusers...When i said in the beginning that every poke that gets even slightly buffed 'cause of drizzle,should be counted as an abuser i was wrong...Abusers should be the pokes who:

1)Have a very larger usage with Drizzle than without
2)Have unique niches to fill in Drizzle(f.e.vaporeon can use hydrarest in drizzle a niche it didn't have in 4th gen.It's use may not decrease if drizzle gets banned,'cause it is a very good wispasser regardless,but it will lose a certain role.)

So now that we have a more clear and specific idea on what a rain abusers is we can see from Pocket's post that the viable drizzle abusers in ou are 20 more or less!
So if anyone of the anti-drizzle group can show me how half or more of these abusers that will have ONLY drizzle as their common factor could be broken i could start realizing why you think that drizzle is broken.
So for example if someone manages to show me that all of the 11 SSers would be broken(not that this could happen but just for example's sake) it wouldn't be a valid explanation as all these rain abusers don't have only Drizzle abuse as their common factor,they also have water stab and the SS ability...!

P.S.To everyone that says that SS is not a broken ability without drizzle 'cause in rain dance teams SS pokes are absolutely manageable,i have to say that Drizzle also is very manageable without the SSers so it is neither Drizzle's fault neither SS's.It is the individual broken pokes's fault!

 

[Notty]

I think the biggest reason you would blame Drizzle over the rain abuser is because Drizzle creates a situation where the abuser has a permanent time frame to abuse the rain.

Except maybe Thundurus, I doubt you'd find many people willing to argue rain abusers would be broken in 5-8 turn rain.

Non-Drizzle Rain + Swift Swim is still available, after all, but nobody cares about that. (Granted, as long as permaweather inducers exist, no-one will care about non-permaweather, anyway.)

If rain abusers aren't broken out of rain or with limited rain, then it's pretty clear what's at fault.

(Whether rain abusers are 'broken' at all is another argument entirely, of course.)