Dream World Tier Discussion

[lostaurora]

This thread is designed to give a brief overview of how the Dream World tier is different from normal OU play, and how different playstyles fare in this metagame.

Here, you should discuss how you think the Dream World metagame has changed since the banning of Garchomp and whether anything in the current metagame is too powerful, underlooked, or anything else along those lines.

How does the Dream World Tier differ from BW OU?

The Dream World tier allows every Pokemon to use its Dream World ability, regardless of whether or not it has been released yet. In addition, the three yet-unreleased Pokemon, Genesect, Keldeo, and Meloetta, are also allowed. Finally, egg move & DW ability combinations that are not possible in the current OU metagame are allowed. Two prime examples are Chlorophyll Venusaur with Power Whip and Sheer Force Feraligatr with Dragon Dance; because both of these moves are egg moves, both combinations are not yet possible because all DW starters released so far have been male. However, the Dream World tier is a metagame where unreleased combinations are usable, so both of these combinations are allowed. However, that does not mean that illegal egg move combinations (Ferrothorn with SR, Spikes, and Leech Seed, for example) are allowed. Another major factor in the Dream World tier is that Soul Dew is allowed, meaning that the Lati twins are top threats in the tier. Finally, the berries that are not yet available in-game are allowed in Dream World, allowing the use of things like SubPetaya Empoleon.

How popular are weather teams in Dream World?

To no one's surprise, weather teams see significant usage in Dream World. However, I would argue that weather is even more popular (and almost necessary) in Dream World than OU due to the additional threats running around. Looking at the top 10 presently, four are pure rain teams, four are pure sand teams, and two are mixed rain/sand teams, a style recently popularized by myself and Jargonite (Raj on the forums). This is not to say, however, that sun and even hail are unviable, they are simply harder to use like they are in normal OU.

Latios and Latias with Soul Dew? That's insanely broken!

Both Lati twins are top threats in the tier because they are allowed to carry Soul Dew as a held item, giving them the Choice Specs boost without limiting move choice. Thankfully, Dream World gives us two excellent additional checks; Shadow Tag Chandelure and Choice Scarf Genesect. The former can trap weakened Lati@s and kill them with Shadow Ball, while CS Genesect forces both out under threat of a Download-boosted U-Turn. And finally, Tyranitar is as common as ever, because sand remains a viable playstyle even without Garchomp, and with its sand-boosted SpDef, it can take Draco Meteors and Surfs and KO both Latis with Pursuit.

Chandelure with Shadow Tag too? This tier is overpowered.

With the preconception of Shadow Tag as the ultimate ability thanks to 3rd and 4th generation Wobbuffet, you might expect a Pokemon with 145 SpAtk to be broken, as it can trap and kill so many Pokemon. Luckily, neither Sand nor Rain, the most popular playstyles, is kind to it. Tyranitar takes negligible damage from even Energy Ball and can KO back with Pursuit, while everlasting rain causes its Fire-type moves to be halved in power, allowing Pokemon like Jirachi to take it on more easily.

Do the pinch Berries often make an appearance in battles?

Although all of the as-of-yet unreleased berries are indeed allowed, they are rare. SubSD Garchomp holding a Salac Berry was a monster, allowing it to beat Genesect and served as one of the best late-game sweepers. However, as Chomp is banned now, there are few things that can successfully utilize a pinch Berry. SubPetaya Sceptile might be one of the best choices, as its ability, Unburden, doubles its Speed when it consumes the Berry. A similar set could be made with Hitmonlee, which also gets Unburden. Lastly, slow Pokemon with the Sturdy ability often carry a Custap Berry to ensure that they move first once they are brought down to 1 HP. Forretress is often found carrying Custap to ensure that it gets at least two layers of hazards up. Other Custap users are used to set up Rocks and then Explode (Golem, Gigalith) while Aggron often carries one so that it can Metal Burst something, then Head Smash or set up SR before dying.

Dream World sounds like a load of BS based on a fairytale metagame.

I honestly can't understand why the "fairytale" part of Dream World draws so much ire. Sure, it's a tier based only on what we assume will be released, but as long as it's feasible, I don't see what the problem is. It's not like the unreleased Dream World abilities and event Pokemon are not present within the game's coding, they're simply inaccessible. Furthermore, I highly doubt the programmers at Game Freak would waste valuable man-hours implementing the unreleased abilities and Pokemon, just to never officially release them at some point in the future. I can't even remember a time off the top of my head where they've kept anything unreleased. And it's not like they are egg cycles for legendaries, or anything else programmed to prevent an error in case of hacking, as some Pokemon legitimately do not have DW abilities.

Ultimately, why should I play in Dream World?

The Dream World tier has some characteristics that are distinctly different from OU play. It's a faster-paced metagame in general, focusing more on overpowering your opponent with offensive threats. Stall doesn't work nearly as well, as Genesect and Keldeo are both good stallbreakers, and thanks to Soul Dew's legality, Latios and Latias often run Psyshock just to beat Blissey. Slow but bulky set-up Pokemon such as Conkeldurr and Reuniclus also don't work nearly as well in the fast-paced offensive Dream World metagame. Secondly, Dream World is in fact the second-most played tier, having a significantly greater number of battles than UU. People playing on Dream World have a different mentality than some OU players who just copy another good team so that they can reach voting requirements. Because Dream World has no suspect tests, people on the ladder tend to compete more to learn than to reach reqs, which I believe is a healthy thing for this metagame. Finally, one could argue that Dream World represents what the OU metagame could become in the future; there are no guarantees regarding Dream World releases, of course, but it can be seen as a sort of futuristic metagame. Dream World also provides players with many more options to explore, with the immediate inclusion of all of the special abilities, items, berries, and Pokemon that have not yet been released by Game Freak.

So why isn't the tier incredibly unbalanced, after all that?

In my opinion, at least, the various Pokemon and combinations allowed in Dream World conveniently check each other nicely. To demonstrate this point, let's briefly cover some of the top offensive presences in Dream World:

Latios and Latias with Soul Dew are among the top, if not the best offensive presences in Dream World. Being able to switch moves while retaining the power of Choice Specs is greatly appreciated, and Latios and Latias will often carry Draco Meteor, Surf, Thunder, HP Fire, and Calm Mind. Despite the 1.5x boost to both SpAtk and SpDef, both Latios and Latias are checked by Genesect, who forces both out with the threat of OHKOing with U-Turn. In addition, both can be revenged by Chandelure's Shadow Ball if they are down ao about 50%. Tyranitar is a good check as always and can kill both twins with Pursuit, but must be wary of switching in on Surf. Other Pursuit users such as Weavile and Metagross are rare but serve the same purpose. Finally, Jirachi and Ferrothorn are good Lati@s checks in Rain, which is common. On the flipside, both Latios and Latias are solid checks to opposing Thundurus, as even boosted HP Ice will fail to OHKO.

Genesect, the last Pokemon in the National Pokedex, serves as a fantastic check to many of Dream World's top-tier threats when equipped with a Choice Scarf. It has an excellent special movepool, having acces to Thunder, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and Bug Buzz. On the physical spectrum, Genesect gets STAB U-Turn that is invaluable to force force Lati@s and Tyranitar out. On top of that, its excellent ability, Download, gives one of its attacking stats a 50% whenever it switches in. Coupled with 120/120 base attacking stats, Genesect can reliably revenge a host of threatening Pokemon and serves as an excellent offensive pivot. On the other hand, if locked into Flamethrower, Ice Beam, or Bug Buzz, it is easily disposed of by Chandelure, which can easily OHKO Genesect with a STAB Fire-type move.

Chandelure is the most reliable revenge killer in Dream World thanks to its ability, Shadow Tag. With 145 base SpAtk, it has the ability to trap and kill many Pokemon in Dream World, including Ferrothorn. With Fire Blast / Shadow Ball / Energy Ball / HP Ice, Chandelure can handle a host of Pokemon and ensure a kill. HP Fighting can also be used to hit Tyranitar hard if you are using another weather. Genesect locked into one of the moves outlined earlier is easily taken care of by Chandelure. It traps and kills Ferrothorn, which is as common a sight in DW as it is in OU. Finally, it kills Genesect locked into Flamethrower, Ice Beam, or Bug Buzz, and can also take out weakened Tyranitar or Politoed. In return, however, after Chandelure makes a kill, Tyranitar can come in and Pursuit it to death.

Our favorite sand inducer is back in Dream World, back again to start Sandstorm. With its excellent boosted Special Defense, it can trap and kill the likes of Latios, Latias, and Chandelure while supporting Sand teams simultaneously. However, Dream World did bring about two Pokemon that Tyranitar does not at all enjoy facing; Genesect and Keldeo. The former can threaten to do a lot of damage with Download-boosted U-Turn while the latter can OHKO outright with Secret Sword. Finally, like in OU, Tyranitar has problems with the popularity of Mach Punch from Conkeldurr and in DW, Techniloom.

Like Tyranitar, Politoed makes a huge impact on the Dream World metagame by summoning permanent rain. Like in OU, it is able to fire off extremely powerful Hydro Pumps and Surfs, especially when equipped with Choice Specs. However, spamming Surf/Hydro Pump is less effective in DW due to the popularity of Soul Dew Latios and Latias, both of which can sponge even Modest Specs Hydro Pumps with ease and threaten Politoed back with Thunder or Draco Meteor.

Thanks to the popularity of rain in Dream World, Ferrothorn remains a top choice as a defensive Pokemon. With the ability to check top rain threats such as Latios, Latias, and Thundurus, and with a great typing that lets it sponge boosted Water-type attacks, Ferrothorn is a solid choice against both rain and sand. However, one thing in Dream World puts a thorn in Ferrothorn's side; the existence of Shadow Tag Chandelure, which ensures a fiery death for Ferrothorn unless it opts to hold a Shed Shell. Nevertheless, it still serves as a reliable wall and Pokemon to set up hazards, and spread paralysis and Leech Seeds. Specially defensive Jirachi serves a similar role, so choosing between them can be difficult. In general, Ferrothorn tends to work decently against both Sand and Rain while Jirachi works better against most Rain teams but doesn't do well against Sand.

In the high-powered, fast-paced Dream World metagame, defensive Pokemon are almost all at a disadvantage compared to OU. With Latios and Latias rampant, however, Jirachi remains an excellent candidate for a specially defensive wall. It can sponge Draco Meteors easily and isn't 2HKOed by Rain-boosted Surf. Like in OU, Jirachi can carry its choice of paralysis move - Thunder Wave, Thunder, or Body Slam, and perform a similar paraflinching role. Calm Mind Jirachi has also made a comeback under Rain, as its Fire weakness is negated, allowing it to take most special attacks with ease after a Calm Mind or two. As stated earlier, the choice between Jirachi or Ferrothorn as a defensive Pokemon can be difficult. Although Ferrothorn boasts better resistances, Jirachi has a healing move in Wish that allows it to take on repeated assaults from the Lati twins more easily. Ferrothorn tends to work well against both Rain and Sand, and Jirachi will work better against most Rain teams but not fare as well against sand staples like Gliscor and Excadrill.

Along with Genesect, Keldeo is the other yet-unreleased Pokemon, making it legal in only Dream World. It is effective in both Sand and Rain and serves as a capable wallbreaker thanks to its signature move, Secret Sword, which allows it to beat Chansey and Blissey with ease. It also decimates Skarmory and Gliscor with Surf, and can KO slightly weakened Ferrothorn with Secret Sword. It is useful against all weather teams because it threatens all four of the weather starters. Tyranitar is OHKOed by Secret Sword, while Politoed can usually be 2HKOed and cannot do anything back to Keldeo. Ninetales is hit hard by both of Keldeo's primary STAB moves while it cannot do much back, and the rare Abomasnow is also OHKOed by Secret Sword. Unfortunately, Keldeo cannot beat the top two offensive threats, Latios and Latias, even if it carries HP Ice or Ghost. In addition, it will struggle to beat Jellicent even with a super-effective Hidden Power and Calm Mind, as it's likely to die of Toxic damage first, and is also susceptible to being revenged by Genesect's Thunder.

Long regarded as a gimmick, Ditto fills a unique niche in DW. Its Dream World ability, Imposter, acts as an automatic Transform when Ditto enters battle, becoming a carbon copy of the opponent with the exception of its HP stat. Imposter also differentiates itself from Transform in that it copies the opponent's stat boosts; for this reason, Ditto equipped with a Choice Scarf can be used to easily revenge anything that has gotten too many boosts under its belt, especially Dragon Dancers and Shell Smashers. Suddenly, SmashPassing a +6/+6/+6 doesn't look like such a great option, and seeing a Ditto on the opposing team means that using boosting moves isn't such a great idea. However, because Ditto must carry a Scarf to avoid speed ties, it is virtually useless against defensively-oriented Pokemon. Becoming a Scarf Blissey or Ferrothorn will not accomplish much. Finally, keep in mind that Ditto will not copy its opponent's IVs; you must take that into account if you're planning to transform into something with HP Ice, for example, but you get HP Dark instead. Lastly, Imposter and Transform don't work on Substitutes, so switch Ditto in on anything with an intact Sub.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Tyranitar takes negligible damage from even Energy Ball and can KO back with Pursuit

I'm going to nitpick a little here.
Tyranirtar takes negligible damage from Energy Ball, but gets 2HKO'd by HP fighting while Pursuit can't OHKO Chandelure unless it switches out.(IIRC, even BandTar can't OHKO with Pursuit)

What does HP Ice help Chandelure revenge exactly? Landorus is OHKO'd by Fire Blast IIRC.
Salamence is KO'd by Shadow Ball after Rocks too(Again IIRC).

The only thing is Dragonite.

HP Fighting can help with T-tar, Heatran, and Hydreigon.

 

[lostaurora]

I'm going to nitpick a little here.
Tyranirtar takes negligible damage from Energy Ball, but gets 2HKO'd by HP fighting while Pursuit can't OHKO Chandelure unless it switches out.(IIRC, even BandTar can't OHKO with Pursuit)

What does HP Ice help Chandelure revenge exactly? Landorus is OHKO'd by Fire Blast IIRC.
Salamence is KO'd by Shadow Ball after Rocks too(Again IIRC).

The only thing is Dragonite.

HP Fighting can help with T-tar, Heatran, and Hydreigon.

Chandelure is often run alongside Excadrill so that it can be used to trap and kill Gliscor with HP Ice (Fire Blast will never OHKO and Gliscor OHKOes back with Earthquake) as well as being a more solid choice against the Dragons. With Garchomp gone, though, HP Fighting is a more viable option (although I haven't met a Chandelure with it yet). But Fire Blast isn't a surefire KO against 4/0 Landorus even with SR factored in.

Chandelure shouldn't be used to combat Heatran because HP Fighting will never 2HKO a 252/0 Heatran at full health, and Earth Power has a good chance of OHKOing Chandelure and is a guaranteed OHKO with anything more than one layer of Spikes. HP Ice hits as hard as Fighting against Hydreigon, which is uncommon in any case.

Because Chandelure is most often using one of its dual STABs to revenge other Pokemon and really needs a Scarf to be effective, Tyranitar will always be able to take it out if it's locked into Fire Blast / Shadow Ball. The main reason to run HP Fight is if Chandelure is on a Sun team and you want it to be able to KO weakened Tyranitar without fail.

 

[polop]

What about imposter ditto its like able to counter every sweeper there and copy its boost's. It can even go on a little minisweep of it's own if it manages too. Walls stop it cold if it transforms into them though.

 

[NDenizen]

Technician Breloom, Imposter Ditto and Keldeo are pretty significant in the DW metagame, moreso than the obvious OU threats listed in the main post.

Imposter Ditto punishes stat boosting and threatens to hit back harder.
Keldeo has nice moves and a pretty decent typing, meaning it is usually a pain to deal with.
Technician Breloom is simply brilliant, and extremely useful. Tech Bullet Seed breaks through Subs, Sturdy and Sash and can deal around 170 damage if you're lucky. Tech Mach Punch provides some decently powerful priority. Spore is absurdly convenient, as we all know. Then you have an extra slot for coverage, other interesting moves, or Swords Dance which allows you to really tear through a team with mach punch. It fares nicely against weather too, Sun withstanding.

 

[lostaurora]

What about imposter ditto its like able to counter every sweeper there and copy its boost's. It can even go on a little minisweep of it's own if it manages too. Walls stop it cold if it transforms into them though.

This thread won't encompass every Pokemon viable in Dream World, just a few that I consider the top threats in my experience. Although Scarf Ditto is great for stopping stat boosters, as you said, it can't accomplish much against most walls and opponents can beat it with prediction, because for it to be effective a Scarf is basically necessary to avoid speed ties.

Technician Breloom, Imposter Ditto and Keldeo are pretty significant in the DW metagame, moreso than the obvious OU threats listed in the main post.

I definitely wouldn't say that they are more significant than the Pokemon already listed, but you bring up a good point - Keldeo is legal in DW and I should write something about it, as it's a nice wallbreaker and works well against Sand and Rain. My thoughts on Ditto are written above (I really don't think it's very common nor effective) and although Techniloom has an amazing Bullet Seed, it's too slow to use it effectively with an SD set. I also disagree that it's good against weather; SpecsToed OHKOes Breloom in Rain 100% of the time with Hydro Pump, and ScarfToed doesn't even need Hydro Pump as it can outspeed Breloom and guarantee a 2HKO with just Surf. Breloom is too frail to switch in against many of the top threats, and must even be wary of switching in to Tyranitar's Fire Blast.

 

[Lee]

nice op, i got a strange sense of nostaliga from stuff like Genesect and Shadow Tag Chandelure heh...

but ehhh, i dunno. I looked into DW when PO first launched but, like most people, I dropped it like a bad habit and moved onto regular OU. I could be willing to give it another go though, if someone could tell me why. I mean, why do people actually play Dream World? What's the appeal? Why do you prefer it to regular OU?

The way I look at it there's about 4 or 5 very possibly broken Pokemon (Soul Dew Lati@S, Shadow Tag Chandelure, Serperior, Ditto, maybe even Keldeo off the top of my head) and that's on top of all the 'maybe broken' stuff that regular OU struggles with but the difference is that DW has no suspect test process or anything like that. It's basically 'like it or lump it.'

I'm also kinda put off by the whole whimsical nature of it - it's just a big clusterfuck of assumptions (Soul Dew doesn't even exist in the game's coding so to assume it will be released someday is a pretty big step, and doesn't it also work on the assumption that we'll get female variants of certain DW Pokemon someday?). Sometimes it all seems kinda arbitrary and chaotic.

oh, and out of curiosity, is it common to see both Latios and Latias on the same team? I'd be pretty darn tempted...

 

[IcyMan28]

I wasn't aware that Soul Dew was allowed in Standard DW. Also, it is in the coding, but not obtainable within the games (RSE remakes go go go).

That said, there aren't really that many more broken pokemon, IMO. Serperior is manageable, Ditto can only do what you allow it to (moreso than other set up sweepers, and it is often locked into a Scarf), while Keldeo does have its fair amount of checks (Latios, Jellicent, Gyarados, Celebi, etc).

It is fun to play (kind of like playing Platinum before we knew it would be released, if that makes sense), and regarding practical purposes it helps get an idea of what the future of the metagame will likely shape up to be.

It does work on the assumption that we will get female DW pokemon someday, but then since everything got a DW ability I'd say its a fair assumption.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Chandelure is often run alongside Excadrill so that it can be used to trap and kill Gliscor with HP Ice (Fire Blast will never OHKO and Gliscor OHKOes back with Earthquake) as well as being a more solid choice against the Dragons. With Garchomp gone, though, HP Fighting is a more viable option (although I haven't met a Chandelure with it yet). But Fire Blast isn't a surefire KO against 4/0 Landorus even with SR factored in.

Chandelure shouldn't be used to combat Heatran because HP Fighting will never 2HKO a 252/0 Heatran at full health, and Earth Power has a good chance of OHKOing Chandelure and is a guaranteed OHKO with anything more than one layer of Spikes. HP Ice hits as hard as Fighting against Hydreigon, which is uncommon in any case.

Because Chandelure is most often using one of its dual STABs to revenge other Pokemon and really needs a Scarf to be effective, Tyranitar will always be able to take it out if it's locked into Fire Blast / Shadow Ball. The main reason to run HP Fight is if Chandelure is on a Sun team and you want it to be able to KO weakened Tyranitar without fail.

Modest Fire Blast deals 83.33% - 98.31% to 252/0 Gliscor with a 66.67% chance to OHKO after Rocks. Though with Poison Heal, HP Ice is superior.
With that same Fire Blast, 4/0 Landorus takes 87.50% - 103.44% which is a guaranteed OHKO after Rocks.


When did I say Chandy should be fighting Heatran? I just use HP Fighting to deal a bit of damage when one of them is going to switch in.(I don't play DW)
Not to mention it might be nice to actually be able to hit one for more than 20%.

The main reason to run HP Fighting is to hit some other things a bit harder.
T-tar, Heatran, Terrakion, etc.

Btw, Scarf isn't everything Chandy can do :L
A LO set would be nice since the majority of things it's used to trap n' kill are actually slower.

 

[lostaurora]

Modest Fire Blast deals 83.33% - 98.31% to 252/0 Gliscor with a 66.67% chance to OHKO after Rocks. Though with Poison Heal, HP Ice is superior.
With that same Fire Blast, 4/0 Landorus takes 87.50% - 103.44% which is a guaranteed OHKO after Rocks.

I assumed Timid in my calculations so you are right there;

When did I say Chandy should be fighting Heatran? I just use HP Fighting to deal a bit of damage when one of them is going to switch in.(I don't play DW)
Not to mention it might be nice to actually be able to hit one for more than 20%.

Hitting it on the switch is nice in OU but in DW there's Shadow Tag so Chandy picks what it wants to fight, and predicting switch is irrelevant because they can't.

The main reason to run HP Fighting is to hit some other things a bit harder.
T-tar, Heatran, Terrakion, etc.

Btw, Scarf isn't everything Chandy can do :L
A LO set would be nice since the majority of things it's used to trap n' kill are actually slower.

I'll definitely give you TTar as I've used HP Fighting Chandy before on a Sun team with Specs to kill off Tar at ~70%. The other thing is that Skarmory and Ferrothorn will occasionally run Shed Shell and switch directly out to TTar; HP Fighting is useful here if you suspect a Shed Shell. Energy Ball hits harder on Terrakion, though.

 

[Olijolly]

I understand the dd+sheer force feraligatr is legal in dream world and with life orb and rain it would be doing some nasty damage. How is dd+sheer force gatr? Is it only good on paper or is it actually that good?

 

[lostaurora]

It can be extremely good, but it's checked by Scarf Genesect which is extremely common. Because of this, top players who are using Feraligatr need to be careful because if you DD on the switch and Genesect switches in, you've wasted a turn. However, if you waterfall predicting the switch that doesn't happen, Feraligatr can easily get killed, so it's a mindgame like everything else in the top of DW. Also, because so many of the top threats can threaten it, a lot of opponents will just sac something to bring Genesect in safely. Like Keldeo, I often find it to be very hit or miss. If you run Superpower/Brick Break Jellicent walls you, and if you run Crunch then Ferrothorn walls you.

 

[Celestavian]

4 of the top 10 are Sand teams? I have seen maybe one sand team in recent times. I think this is a tier where rain almost entirely outclasses sand, as Keldeo can destroy every single sand abuser and inducer in the game, from living through Adamant LO Excadrill Earthquakes to KOing Ferrothorn with Hydro Pump + Secret Sword. Not even Garchomp bothered it save for sand hax. Genesect, while normally a solid check, gets murdered by bulky Zapdos, who isn't OHKOed by Ice Beam and fries Genesect with Thunder.

Yeah sure, I myself have gotten to #1 with a Sand team even in the Swift Swim era, but after building a rain team, I just feel like there isn't much of a way for Sand to compete, especially since Garchomp is gone.

That said, I still think Sand is fun to play as and is an effective strategy, but I simply don't see a reason to run sand over rain anymore.

 

[hoiboy]

In addition, both can be revenged by Chandelure's Shadow Ball if slightly weakened.

I'm using Marriland's calculator here, so bear with me...

I do not believe that Chandelure can check any CM Soul Dew Latias. (these are assuming Latias has 0 CMs under her belt or skirt or whatever).
Modest Specs Chandelure with Shadow Ball does 187-220 (51.4% - 60.4%) damage to 252 HP/4 Def/252 Spe Latias.
Modest Scarf Chandelure outspeeds Latias, but only deals between 46.7% to 54.9% damage.
Timid Scarf Chandelure dishes out 42.6% to 50.3%.

In either case, if Chandelure switches into Latias, who more often than not carries CM / Recover / Dragon Pulse / Filler move (Sub, Surf), the user of Latias can easily set up a Sub to buy a free turn for CM, or even CM the first turn out. Barring a crit, Chandelure has virtually no chance of KO'ing a Latias if it switches in.

I think "slightly weakened" is a bit insufficient.

Edit: I just realized this is not exactly relevant to the OP quote, but here's some stuff for all you Chandelure users.

Edit2:
@Lee: None of them are really "broken". A lot of them are powerful, but a bit of smart play will get you through. In some cases, you may have to sacrifice a 'mon to eliminate a threat, but it's not that bad. Keldeo is nowhere near broken, and Ditto is lol (though Ditto bluffing a scarf might be scary). And personally, I've never seen anyone run the dual dragon core yet, but I'm trying it out myself right now :P

 

[Bone Dragon]

I get the impression that this meta is much more imbalanced, with much more broken pokes, than standard OU. Am I correct?

 

[hoiboy]

I get the impression that this meta is much more imbalanced, with much more broken pokes, than standard OU. Am I correct?

Imbalanced is a debatable point... rain teams are everywhere. However, I wouldn't say DW is full of broken pokes, maybe something more like DW has higher standards than standard OU...?

Honestly, Ditto and Chandelure and Seperior aren't nearly as scary as a lot of hype may make them seem.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Imbalanced is a debatable point... rain teams are everywhere. However, I wouldn't say DW is full of broken pokes, maybe something more like DW has higher standards than standard OU...?

Honestly, Ditto and Chandelure and Seperior aren't nearly as scary as a lot of hype may make them seem.

Everything revolves around Rain, Soul Dew Latios, and whether or not your sweeper/wall is Ditto/Chandelure-weak.

If you have, say, DDmence, you need a freakin counter to your own sweeper or risk getting roflstomped by a Ditto.

If your sweeper is completely stopped by Jirachi, what do you do? You slap on a Chadelure and pwn her and then try to sweep.

The DW Tier isn't balanced at all.

 

[lostaurora]

4 of the top 10 are Sand teams? I have seen maybe one sand team in recent times. I think this is a tier where rain almost entirely outclasses sand, as Keldeo can destroy every single sand abuser and inducer in the game, from living through Adamant LO Excadrill Earthquakes to KOing Ferrothorn with Hydro Pump + Secret Sword. Not even Garchomp bothered it save for sand hax. Genesect, while normally a solid check, gets murdered by bulky Zapdos, who isn't OHKOed by Ice Beam and fries Genesect with Thunder.

Yeah sure, I myself have gotten to #1 with a Sand team even in the Swift Swim era, but after building a rain team, I just feel like there isn't much of a way for Sand to compete, especially since Garchomp is gone.

That said, I still think Sand is fun to play as and is an effective strategy, but I simply don't see a reason to run sand over rain anymore.

After the Garchomp ban, top Dream World teams were almost all rain-based. However, to my surprise (and I'm sure many others as well) Sand has started making a comeback, with indeed four of the top 10 being Sand (darkaurora (mine), mervins, see visions, and bomb thrower, at least at the time of the OP) while four were rain and two (shining star and dragon reborn) were mixed rain/sand. It's interesting to see how sand has made a comeback despite having no new tools to play with; one Pokemon in particular that I've hated facing is Conkeldurr - because of the rise in physically Defensive Toed carrying Scald and Toxic, Conkeldurr is a nice choice to absorb status and crush things with Drain Punch, and also checks Excadrill with Mach Punch. Didn't expect a comeback from Conkeldurr of all things, nor Sand in general, but it seems to have happened at least for the time being.

nice op, i got a strange sense of nostaliga from stuff like Genesect and Shadow Tag Chandelure heh...

but ehhh, i dunno. I looked into DW when PO first launched but, like most people, I dropped it like a bad habit and moved onto regular OU. I could be willing to give it another go though, if someone could tell me why. I mean, why do people actually play Dream World? What's the appeal? Why do you prefer it to regular OU?

The way I look at it there's about 4 or 5 very possibly broken Pokemon (Soul Dew Lati@S, Shadow Tag Chandelure, Serperior, Ditto, maybe even Keldeo off the top of my head) and that's on top of all the 'maybe broken' stuff that regular OU struggles with but the difference is that DW has no suspect test process or anything like that. It's basically 'like it or lump it.'

I'm also kinda put off by the whole whimsical nature of it - it's just a big clusterfuck of assumptions (Soul Dew doesn't even exist in the game's coding so to assume it will be released someday is a pretty big step, and doesn't it also work on the assumption that we'll get female variants of certain DW Pokemon someday?). Sometimes it all seems kinda arbitrary and chaotic.

oh, and out of curiosity, is it common to see both Latios and Latias on the same team? I'd be pretty darn tempted...

I'm not sure why I chose DW over OU, to be honest. I started out playing a little of both, but then I realized that I enjoyed playing in Dream World a lot more and have stuck with it since. One reason is that I love Genesect as an offensive pivot and use it on all my teams, and I just prefer the more "unbalanced" metagame, I guess. It always seemed faster-paced to me as well, which I like. And lastly, I think there's one thing I didn't mention in the OP that I'm just realizing now - slow Pokemon don't work well in DW (well, with the exception of Ferrothorn). Because it's a bit faster paced, things like Reuniclus and Conkeldurr (both of which I despised facing in OU) just don't cut it. In the beginning I played DW because I preferred the Pokemon within it, but now I think it's because it's more offensively based and games move by more quickly.

 

[Raj]

Great thread lostaurora!

How to win in Dream World: make sure your Genesect outlives your opponent's.

nice op, i got a strange sense of nostaliga from stuff like Genesect and Shadow Tag Chandelure heh...

but ehhh, i dunno. I looked into DW when PO first launched but, like most people, I dropped it like a bad habit and moved onto regular OU. I could be willing to give it another go though, if someone could tell me why. I mean, why do people actually play Dream World? What's the appeal? Why do you prefer it to regular OU?

The way I look at it there's about 4 or 5 very possibly broken Pokemon (Soul Dew Lati@S, Shadow Tag Chandelure, Serperior, Ditto, maybe even Keldeo off the top of my head) and that's on top of all the 'maybe broken' stuff that regular OU struggles with but the difference is that DW has no suspect test process or anything like that. It's basically 'like it or lump it.'

I'm also kinda put off by the whole whimsical nature of it - it's just a big clusterfuck of assumptions (Soul Dew doesn't even exist in the game's coding so to assume it will be released someday is a pretty big step, and doesn't it also work on the assumption that we'll get female variants of certain DW Pokemon someday?). Sometimes it all seems kinda arbitrary and chaotic.

oh, and out of curiosity, is it common to see both Latios and Latias on the same team? I'd be pretty darn tempted...

1. First off, for some reason, Dream World is incredibly stable. Next so after Ubers, but without the dryness. The way I see it, DW is the future of OU.

2. Soul Dew isn't broken. It makes them better, but the prevalence of Genesect and strong physical attackers limit them. Chandelure is kind of disappointing really. It really isn't as good as it would seem on paper. Serperior is a joke at best. It's only attacking options are Grass move, Hidden Power, and Twister. Keldeo isn't broken, just kind of cool. Ditto could be considered broken, but truth is, most people steer clear of it.

3. As for Latios and Latias on the same team, me and lostaurora do that. It's like backing up your CB Scizor with Swords Dance Luke, only with considerably better Pokemon. When one dies, you wreck shit with the other. Alot of Dream World play demands overwhelming your opponent quickly. Stall won't work because of pseudo-mixed powerhouses like Psychock Latios and Sacred Sword Keldeo.

 

[Jonathan]

Great thread, I'm definitely interested in learning more about DW. I think it's a shame really that the tier doesn't get any "official" attention. Below are the number of rated battles played in each tier for the month of May:

OU: ~ 274,000
UU: ~ 69,000
Ubers: ~ 9,000
LC: ~ 1300
DW: ~ 106,000

Why does the second most popular tier not get any official endorsement or suspect testing when a tier played 100x less gets both, as well as it's own subforum (I'm talking about LC). I was on board with Smogon's philosophy originally to kind of ignore DW, but looking at those numbers I'm not sure if that's such a good idea. If something is so popular we should be working to legitimize it.


Looking at the usage stats, I had a couple questions I was hoping someone who plays DW could clear up for me:
- why is Espeon's usage so high? I see no mention of it in the OP, is it only used by people lower down the ladder? Even with its updated movepool now in OU I can't see it reaching top 20.
- also why is Conkeldurr so high? Iron Fist? Or do people mostly use guts.

 

[Raj]

I play DW as much as anybody and cannot answer those questions. I don't see very much of either of them to be honest. At the top of the ladder, the circle of matches you get is very limited.

I completely agree with you, though. DW gets very little attention and it is the second largest tier. People don't seem to think that it's legitimate.

 

[Lee]

Why does the second most popular tier not get any official endorsement or suspect testing when a tier played 100x less gets both, as well as it's own subforum (I'm talking about LC). I was on board with Smogon's philosophy originally to kind of ignore DW, but looking at those numbers I'm not sure if that's such a good idea. If something is so popular we should be working to legitimize it.

I completely agree with you, though. DW gets very little attention and it is the second largest tier. People don't seem to think that it's legitimate.

I reckon the last paragraph of this post goes a long way towards explaining why DW isn't an officially recognised metagame.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3555681&postcount=29

Lastly, because people are bringing up DW OU I'll out and discuss it too... I hate DW OU and DW Uber. I think they should be removed. They are magical fairyland metagames that may never truly exist for all we know. I only added them because there were literally thousands of people pushing for them, and I don't joke when I say thousands. Because Smogon didn't create the first BW server, we have to deal with a community that expects a Dream World set of tiers, regardless of how asinine they are. We lose major amounts of traffic by not having these tiers, and that hurts Smogon. I weighed the benefits and downsides of having and not having the DW tiers, and decided in favor of adding them in.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

And the strange irony is that the thousands of people who are asking for DW OU are not playing them.

Huh.

 

[lostaurora]

Looking at the usage stats, I had a couple questions I was hoping someone who plays DW could clear up for me:
- why is Espeon's usage so high? I see no mention of it in the OP, is it only used by people lower down the ladder? Even with its updated movepool now in OU I can't see it reaching top 20.
- also why is Conkeldurr so high? Iron Fist? Or do people mostly use guts.

Like Jargonite, I have no clue. I think the May stats are terribly outdated by now, as it's almost the end of June. I've really seen few to no Espeon in my matches, as it easily gets killed by Genesect's U-Turn which is a major roadblock for most Pokemon not named Lati@s.

A Conkeldurr, when used well, can be quite effective on both Rain and Sand - Genesect, for one, has problems with it, and it's a good candidate to switch in when you know a Genesect will U-Turn out. It also helps that Gliscor usage is lower due to the addition of Keldeo and Genesect, both of which can OHKO it, and more Latios and Latias running around. Still, I think that neither of these is used as much as the stats indicate.

And as stated before, OU-style stall isn't really viable with Genesect and Keldeo rampant, as they can both crack most stall teams wide open. Furthermore, the Latis with the benefit of Soul Dew run Psyshock more often, allowing them to crush stall as well. I personally enjoy the non-prevalence of stall, which is another reason I enjoy DW.

I don't think ST Chandy is broken, either - against the two most popular playstyles, Sand and Rain, it struggles - Tyranitar coming in after Chandy makes a kill with anything other than HP Fighting is a death sentence, and the popularity of rain means that its primary STAB option is halved in power, meaning it can't even beat things like Jirachi easily.

 

[Celestavian]

*R_D's quote that for some reason didn't show up*

I honestly can't understand why the "fairytale" part of Dream World draws so much ire. Sure, it's a tier based only on what we assume will be released, but as long as it's feasible, I don't see what the problem is. It's not like the unreleased Dream World abilities and event Pokemon are not present within the game's coding, they're simply inaccessable. Furthermore, I highly doubt the programmers at Game Freak would waste valuable man-hours implementing the unreleased abilities and Pokemon, just to never officially release them at some point in the future. I can't even remember a time off the top of my head where they've kept anything unreleased. And it's not like they are egg cycles for legendaries, or anything else programmed to prevent an error in case of hacking, as some Pokemon legitimately do not have DW abilities.