np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Stratos]

Something that needs more love is CB Azumarill.

In rain, assuming no prior damage, its Aqua Jet does a minimum of 97% to Thunderbro.

In sand, assuming no prior damage, both Waterfall and Superpower OHKO tyranitar.

In sand, assuming no prior damage, Aqua jet does a minimum of 83% to Landobro, and 82% to Terrakion.

In sand, assuming no prior damage, Ice Punch fucks the shit out of Gliscor.

In sand, assuming no prior damage, Aqua Jet one-shots Excadrill.

Assuming no prior damage, Superpower deals a minimum of 81% to max/max+ Ferro, and most run Sassy with SpDef investment.

Assuming no prior damage, Aqua Jet does 71% minimum to a standard Heatran.

His Ice Punch can OHKO a Dragonite that hasn't lost Multiscale (If I understand the ability correctly.)

He's not stopped by common Waters, either. Return OHKOes offensive Rotom, Politoed, all Starmie, deals 74.9% min to offensive Gyara (so close) with intimidate, etc. Alternatively you could just use Superpower on the first two to guarantee a takedown of even defensive sets. Really his only cold counter is Jellyman.

Etc, Etc. He really appreciates Rocks Support, but if you give him that, he's such a potent revenge killer, and he's pretty easy to slap on a team. Gen V, meet your Heatran.

 

[Bad Ass]

Azumarill has been great on paper for me as a catch-all check to a lot of threatening sweepers, but in practice it has been good-but-not-great. SR + Sand + weak attacks can wear it down pretty fast; swap in on a Heatran Fire Blast, and you take 18% from residuals and 30% from the attack, you're down half of your health. I'm sure it doesn't like repeated Earthquakes from Gliscor or a Close Combat from Terrakion. You could probably do a lot better with it by pairing it with a wish user, such as Jirachi. Then, just throw in something that can take a hit from bulky waters, such as Celebi, and you have a really solid core. But yeah, Azumarill's priority is quite useful, but it really does need that Wish support. You might be able to get away with just Rapid Spin support.

There's so much that I want to test when the server goes back up; CB Terrakion, Volcarona, Azumarill, DD Mence, DD Gyarados, SD Lucario, Gengar, LO Starmie...damn lol.

edit: i forgot to tell alex wolf, jt swift, and rosey oak to do something that rhymes with but the luck sup. your silly arguments are not what this thread is about. with all due respect, people are trying to talk about metagame trends, specific cool mons, etc. make a usergroup. take it there. invite others who wan't to argue. just don't do it here.

 

[alphatron]

Something I need to try again is Azelf. Outside of tyranitar, I think his offensive sets could work quite well! Especially since Scizor mainly sticks to specially bulky sets (this set sucks by the way).

Speaking of Salamence, I want to give him a shot. I can't run him on sand teams because he hates the residual damage if using a life orb. I can't run him on rain teams because then he's a mixmence with hydro pump who gets shut down by ferrothorn (forcing me to run brick break). I can run him without weather (yes) or on a sun team (YES!).

Running him under sun means I don't have to worry about Excadrill as much. The problem is that Mence is easily revenged and doesn't get too many turns to set up. What would solve this problem? Bulky sets? Why not just use dragonite? Rs support is definitely appreciated...

 

[Tobes]

Wobbuffet's good for getting set ups. Encore Ferrothorn into Power Whip, etc. DD Mence's biggest concern is actually Mamoswine (another great anti-meta Pokemon). Bronzong handles Mamo well, and so does Skarmory, who can set up Spikes for Mence to take advantage of.

Mixmence probably appreciate some Wish support. Specially defensive Jirachi makes a great partner since it can pass wishes and paralyze shit, especially Excadrill who think they can get a set-up off.

 

[SolCalibre]

also lol @ people thinking ttar is popular cause of weather wars, guess no one was around for scarftar dominating the metagame because of latias in gen 4?

I never said that TTar was popular because of weather wars, it was because of Latias, very sure i mentioned that in my post. (If I wasn't inc with your group of assumption then disregard this first sentence) Back in 4th gen, that was the only set i'd run pursuit. Ocasionally DD but about 90% was always scarftar.

 

[IcyMan28]

I'm still wondering the following - why has HP Fighting Latios not caught on yet? People confidently switch Tyranitar into my +1 LO Latios on the ladder only to be horribly surprised (and subsequently swept), when Max/Max Careful Tar takes 71% minimum from it. When paired with DrizzleToed, it literally reduces Latios' checks to SpD Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Blissey.

The main argument is that HP Fire is better but I question that. It doesn't really do enough against Jirachi and while it is stronger against Scizor, it can be taken care of by +1 LO Rain Surf. Tyranitar is far more common (and a larger threat to rain teams anyway due to Sand Stream), so it works as a lure that is also perfectly capable of sweeping in its own right. It only really loses to ScarfTar.

 

[MetaGross66]

Yeah, I started using it with LO Thundurus (grass knot, hammer arm, thunder, and hp ice) in the rain. Those three are just incredible. Tyranitar no longer checks them and gets destroyed even if its holding chople berry (I've been seeing more of these) since it can't check both after losing its berry. I really want to know what stops this trio? lol.

 

[Woodchuck]

Dragon Dance Scrafty seems to be the perfect anti-meta sweeper. It completely wrecks sand teams, and the only things that wall it -- Skarmory and Hippowdon -- can't really do anything but phaze it out. Scrafty also has the bulk to take hits while setting up and is an all-around monster.

 

[Nails]

hp fighting latios is outclassed, if you are running a moveslot to hit ttar and only ttar run grass knot. Life orb timid Latios does 40.6-48.2 to max/max lefties ttar in sand, which has like a 20% shot to 2hko after sr. with chople on it, it goes up to a 58% chance to 2hko it. in practice though ttar will have taken some more residual damage, so it's pretty much a secure 2hko. more importantly though, it allows you to run hp fire for scizor and ferrothorn while not losing coverage on tar, or you can have a 31 speed iv while still getting coverage on tar. a win either way.

 

[Eggbert]

CM Latios is really good. A set with CM / Dragon Pulse / Surf / HP Fight will cruise through most of its counters lategame (just get Ferro and tar to like 60%ish). After a CM even stuff like LO Starmie can't stop you. +1 LO dragon pulse hits with about the same force as a life orb draco meteor with no drawbacks. I've been using bronzong with reflect to help it set up. Bronzong is another excellent poke. It walls Nite / Gliscor / Dory / Landy / (Chomp). The only sand threat it can't always stop is SD Terrakion, but it beats rock polishers. Gets up SR, Hp ice stuff like gliscor, EQ / Gyro ball stuff. Tons of support options too. The PO server is good for testing random stuff.

 

[Demoness]

Oh why does the server have to be down :(? I really want to try some of the stuff mentioned here, especially the non-Nasty Plot Thundurus, Starmie, DD Scarfty, and I want to start using Gallade again. Oh, and I always wanted to try out LO Deoxys_S for w while, but never got arround to doing that.

 

[Eggbert]

Just got back from testing more stuff. LO Deo-s is the best cleaner ever. Use teammates that make your opponent take damage switching into and get SR up. Then Deo will just clean the last 2-3 pokes up everytime. Not even scarf Landlos can outspeed you. Psycho boost nukes stuff too. I've also been using hail mamoswine. All I have to do is KO the other weather abuser and then set up hail with mamo. Since I don't have a weather starter they just let their's die. Mamo is a beast with ice shard; it can revenge stuff like Landy, T-bros, and dragons. I really just need ice / ground / rock coverage anyway. Destroys Glis / Rotom / Rachi cores when you get rotom weakened enough into stone edge range.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

kefka post that bulk up tornadus set, i assume it uses acrobling?

This set wasn't mine btw, I got it on the Tornadus thread a long time ago:


TornadoBro @ Flight Gem
252 Speed/252 Attack/4 Defense(Something like that, I honestly can't remember, maybe you should just play around with his defense)
Jolly
- Bulk Up
- Acrobatics
- Brick break
- Taunt

 

[IcyMan28]

hp fighting latios is outclassed, if you are running a moveslot to hit ttar and only ttar run grass knot. Life orb timid Latios does 40.6-48.2 to max/max lefties ttar in sand, which has like a 20% shot to 2hko after sr. with chople on it, it goes up to a 58% chance to 2hko it. in practice though ttar will have taken some more residual damage, so it's pretty much a secure 2hko. more importantly though, it allows you to run hp fire for scizor and ferrothorn while not losing coverage on tar, or you can have a 31 speed iv while still getting coverage on tar. a win either way.

Well to be fair, I am running Latios in rain and HP Fire would be much less effective in such a case.

I actually did experiment some with grass not but even with the high base power, it isn't enough to KO the bulkier Tar. And again, being able to lure in and kill a Tyranitar that has taken little more than SR damage + a resisted attack is great for a team that relies on rain.

 

[Charro]

That's what I said a thousand pages before
LO CM Latios is super strong, +1 Surf can 2HKO max/max careful Tyranitar in sand, and hp fire does the same to spD Jirachi
He dies fast but for the time he will be already killed 3-4 pokemon of the other team
In my opinion Life Orb Calm Mind is the set that makes Latios broken, way more useful than Specs if you ask me

 

[franky]

There's so much that I want to test when the server goes back up; CB Terrakion, Volcarona, Azumarill, DD Mence, DD Gyarados, SD Lucario, Gengar, LO Starmie...damn lol.

With Excadrill in the metagame, Dragon Dance will never be as effective like it was in Gen 4. Choice Scarf has dipped in usage as well due to Excadrill among other reasons. It doesn't help that most Dragon Dance users are thwarted by Stealth Rock, making it difficult to actually pull a sweep (the objctive of a DD sweeper). No one bothers to set up because Excadrill will outpace them even at 2 Dragon Dance sometimes assuming they run an Adamant nature (this applies to 100 Spe DD'ers). The fact of the matter is, anything with Speed will never see the spotlight in the metagame unless Excadrill is banned otherwise. Offensive teams barely get limelight. Balanced and defensive teams are more prevalent in the metagame if anything. I only realized this prior to this round and I'm hoping people ban Excadrill this round even though I don't have voting rights.

 

[alexwolf]

That's what I said a thousand pages before
LO CM Latios is super strong, +1 Surf can 2HKO max/max careful Tyranitar in sand, and hp fire does the same to spD Jirachi
He dies fast but for the time he will be already killed 3-4 pokemon of the other team
In my opinion Life Orb Calm Mind is the set that makes Latios broken, way more useful than Specs if you ask me

What is the point of 2hkoing jirachi and tyranitar at +1 when the first will ohko you and the second will just paralyze you and then most likely kill you with iron head?If it was a 2hko before setup it would have been great but 3 turns to kill a poke seem a lot to me...

 

[alphatron]

The 2HKO is notable, much in the same way that Lanturn apparently isn't a counter to Thundurus because it gets 2HKO'd by LO Focus Blast after a Nasty Plot. (I swear, sometimes, I despise the smogon PO server).

 

[astrohawke]

With Excadrill in the metagame, Dragon Dance will never be as effective like it was in Gen 4. Choice Scarf has dipped in usage as well due to Excadrill among other reasons. It doesn't help that most Dragon Dance users are thwarted by Stealth Rock, making it difficult to actually pull a sweep (the objctive of a DD sweeper). No one bothers to set up because Excadrill will outpace them even at 2 Dragon Dance sometimes assuming they run an Adamant nature (this applies to 100 Spe DD'ers). The fact of the matter is, anything with Speed will never see the spotlight in the metagame unless Excadrill is banned otherwise. Offensive teams barely get limelight. Balanced and defensive teams are more prevalent in the metagame if anything. I only realized this prior to this round and I'm hoping people ban Excadrill this round even though I don't have voting rights.

I'm glad someone else sees why excadrill really needs to go. It's the reason that every team is running gliscor because you can't even revenge kill it without conkeldurr. And don't say hitmontop or azumarill because there's a reason these pokemon don't have high usage.

The really sad thing is, it can beat most of its "counters" with a single rock slide flinch. So that's a 30% chance of getting past its counter and sweeping. Considering garchomp was banned for a 20% miss chance, this is just plain worse. Let's face it, even gliscor loses to this thing every once in a while.

 

[Charro]

What is the point of 2hkoing jirachi and tyranitar at +1 when the first will ohko you and the second will just paralyze you and then most likely kill you with iron head?If it was a 2hko before setup it would have been great but 3 turns to kill a poke seem a lot to me...

2hkoing a special wall with a special attack is nothing now?, people should stop being lazy seriously, luring Tyranitar and Jirachi is very easy, most Jirachi run Body Slam, so is not like they're always going to paralyze you in the first turn (well yeah 60 % is something, but is not a surefire counter), and most Tyranitar doesn't even run max/max careful, so Surf is going to take it out after some prior damage, or even if you want to kill Tyranitar that much Grass Knot simply shits all over it, you just don't simply throw Latios and expect it to sweep their entire team on the first turn, it's better for debilitate your opponent enough for some other sweeper of yours with the same counters

 

[alexwolf]

2hkoing a special wall with a special attack is nothing now?, people should stop being lazy seriously, luring Tyranitar and Jirachi is very easy, most Jirachi run Body Slam, so is not like they're always going to paralyze you in the first turn (well yeah 60 % is something, but is not a surefire counter), and most Tyranitar doesn't even run max/max careful, so Surf is going to take it out after some prior damage, or even if you want to kill Tyranitar that much Grass Knot simply shits all over it, you just don't simply throw Latios and expect it to sweep their entire team on the first turn, it's better for debilitate your opponent enough for some other sweeper of yours with the same counters

I am not syaing that it is not enough but i think it doesn't say much because almost every top tier offensive threat can 2hko their counters after one turn of setup...Anyway i was just nitpicking so let's end this!

 

[alphatron]

Wobbuffet's good for getting set ups. Encore Ferrothorn into Power Whip, etc. DD Mence's biggest concern is actually Mamoswine (another great anti-meta Pokemon). Bronzong handles Mamo well, and so does Skarmory, who can set up Spikes for Mence to take advantage of.

Mixmence probably appreciate some Wish support. Specially defensive Jirachi makes a great partner since it can pass wishes and paralyze shit, especially Excadrill who think they can get a set-up off.

Wobbufett's encore isn't worth using on PO until the move is fixed to work the way it does in game. I'm certain I'm not the only one who believes that the extra guaranteed free turn is a big deal here.

 

[Razza]

hey does anyone know of any good mixed sweepers, or things that can break apart tough defensive cores, like skarmbliss, skarmbliss and gliscor, jellicent ferrothorn, im pretty sure fighting stab is the key to breaking these cores but can anyone help me out?

 

[Olijolly]

hey does anyone know of any good mixed sweepers, or things that can break apart tough defensive cores, like skarmbliss, skarmbliss and gliscor, jellicent ferrothorn, im pretty sure fighting stab is the key to breaking these cores but can anyone help me out?

Mixed mence against faster teams and mixed dragonite against slower teams though by using superpower you lose multiscale:(

In dw, keldeo with calm mind works great also though it's not a mixed attacker xd

 

[Razza]

Mixed mence against faster teams and mixed dragonite against slower teams though by using superpower you lose multiscale:(

In dw, keldeo with calm mind works great also though it's not a mixed attacker xd

I mosly play ou but keldeo is great, also mixnite never works for me because life orb is the best item and it breaks multi scale and i end up getting ohkoed a lot, although i will try out mixmence.

Also i find cb terrakion to destroy skarmbliss and most defensive cores but it requires a lot of prediction for the correct move