np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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I see what you did there haunter.

There are several non steel types that can sponge his meteors and do something nasty in return. You need a rough minimum of base 110 HP and 80 special defense to tank one, and possibly a second depending on damage rolls. An inverse stat layout would work too, but I haven't done calcs for that. Something like 70 HP / 120 Spdef...

Notables:

Cresselia

DM fails to 2HKO specially defensive cress. If the drop didn't occur it'd still be a 3HKO. Cress has moonlight and thunderwave to cripple it. You can also run trick as a failsafe, make cress a special wall for stuff like rotom-W as well. Moonlight nerf sucks though.

Chansey

Softboiled and twave. Standard max hp and def spread is 3HKOed by psyshock.

Gastrodon

Can tank DM and recover stall. Toxic and ice beam if you want.

Mandibuzz

Easily tanks DMs, but not with rocks up.

Reuniclus

Implausible/unorthodox, but possible. Specially defensive set can use recover, twave, trick, trick room and shadow ball.

Snorlax

Band pursuit.


Or you could just fodder something and revenge it with scarftar. I'm sure weavile and scarf metagross would work too.


It's a shame that nobody uses mamoswine. Tie a scarf around one of his tusks and he becomes a phenomenal thundurus check. Icicle crash flinches are great too.

Hell, I run shard, spear and crash alongside EQ. I don't really need stone edge, and all three moves have specific uses.
You're not the only one considering trying a scarf mamo :P

what set do you use? I figure crash, eq, stone edge but what's the fourth since it isn't superpower? Double edge/body slam? (you can do whatever you want with smeargle daddy)
 

November Blue

A universe where hot chips don't exist :(
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Mamoswine should always always always have EQ and ice shard. You can use stone edge if you want, but volcarona is the only reason to run it (off the top of my head.)

Crash or spear is up to preference. Crash has an average of 10 more base power, a 30% flinch chance and 90% accuracy whereas spear has perfect accuracy, 125 potential base power and breaks sashes and sturdies.

My set of choice is 246 speed, max attack adamant. I put the rest in special defense. Ice moves are his best switchin, even without thick fat.
 
It should be noted that Icicle Crash is illegal with Superpower, while Superpower+Icicle Spear is a valid combination. Superpower is a bit useful to hit Ballon 'mons on the switch, notably Heatran, who doesn't give a shit about Ice moves.
 
I'd like to make a point for my friend zapdos. I really don't get how it is not used anymore. It's still the god of all scizor counters, gets thunder to work with in the rain, pressurestalls, can subroost, and toxic. Great switch in to a -2 latios as well.
Zapdos is still good, but I think what really keeps it down in usage is a) its much lower speed than Thundurus, and b) its lack of ability to effectively deal with Tyranitar, which Thundurus can easily do with Focus Blast or Hammer Arm.

Also if I had to name anything as "the god of all scizor counters", it would be Gyarados.
 
Zapdos is still good, but I think what really keeps it down in usage is a) its much lower speed than Thundurus, and b) its lack of ability to effectively deal with Tyranitar, which Thundurus can easily do with Focus Blast or Hammer Arm.

Also if I had to name anything as "the god of all scizor counters", it would be Gyarados.
Gyarados is weak to SR, and cannot Roost. Zapdos is a better Scizor counter because it can repeatedly switch in, while Gyarados is limited in how often it can do so.

Also, Zapdos can OHKO with Heat Wave, without any investment whatsoever. Gyarados cannot OHKO with Waterfall, even if it's 252 Adamant and CB.

edit: I want the server back.
 
There are a bunch of popular OU pokemon who are slower than chandelure and can't risk taking a hit from it. Substitute lets chandy handle the things that switch into it a bit easier. Flame charge turns it into a monstrous late game cleaner, fixing the speed problem.

The Flame Charge set is pretty good.

I'd run Modest with LO with a classic 252/252/4 spread along with:
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Flame Charge

Get rid of:

-T-tar(or at least leave him with like 30% HP x_x)
-Heatran
-Hydreigon
-Chansey/Blissey
-Tentacruel
-Scarfers
-Excadrill

And you're set. It seems like a lot, but you can cross out the more uncommon pokemon and you're left with Excadrill, Heatran, and T-tar.
It's a great late game sweeper.



@ Scrafty discussion:
I find that spread a little lacking in bulk :L
I mean, even with 252/0, he still takes like 60% from Rotom-W's Hydro pump and he just barely 2HKOs.
I'll just try Max attack/max speed again with a Lum Berry.


What do you guys think about Dragonite? He was great for me at the start of this round, but now he seems a little....lackluster.
He doesn't seem to be able to set up much with Ice Beams, WoWs, and Toxics flying everywhere and Dragon Claw is pathetically weak sometimes.
I'm thinking of changing him for CM Latias...
 

Mario With Lasers

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The Flame Charge set is pretty good.

I'd run Modest with LO with a classic 252/252/4 spread along with:
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Flame Charge

Get rid of:

-T-tar(or at least leave him with like 30% HP x_x)
-Heatran
-Hydreigon
-Chansey/Blissey
-Tentacruel
-Scarfers
-Excadrill
Wait, how do you stop Hydreigon.

EDIT-- Oh ok I read it as "gets rid of". I suck.
 
With Ice Beam & burns flying around (do not forget Stealth Rock) Dragonite is really hard to use. A set that can be annoying (but there are other things more annoying) and useful now is the Parashuffler. Maybe the Rain abuse can be useful, but for the physical sweep is a little crippled .-.
 

alexwolf

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A dragonite set that i have been using in my rain team is t-wave,roost,hurricane and dragon pulse with max sp.atc and max hp,modest with lefties!
He has the parafusion combo which is very annoying to use and it is very difficult to stop without status.
Also it is very convenient that hurricane hits the 2 most used steels in the tier for neutral damage!
Almost every time someone sees me use t-wave he expects it to be a parashuffler so they think that i only have d-tail and every time they see me using hurricane they think that i don't have a dragon stab,and so they send in their dragons only to be met with a deadly surprise!!!
I love dragonite!!!
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I think Chandy 2hkos tentacruel with shadow ball, so you can handle weakened ones.

Rotom H and moltres are the best Scizor counters in the game.
 

alexwolf

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I think Chandy 2hkos tentacruel with shadow ball, so you can handle weakened ones.

Rotom H and moltres are the best Scizor counters in the game.
591 Atk vs 304 Def & 250 HP (120 Base Power): 167 - 197 (66.80% - 78.80%)
This is the damage that a 252 Hp Rotom-H takes from a CB Adamant's Scizor Superpower!So after SR it has a 28,21% chance to die with rocks up...
LO Scizor has about the same chance to to 2hko with Superpower and BP if Rotom-h has leftovers....
And the same happens with Moltres(with rocks up)!
So actually the 2 best Scizor counters in the game are Zapdos and Gyarados right behind!(not counting ubers of 'course)
 
I think Chandy 2hkos tentacruel with shadow ball, so you can handle weakened ones.

Rotom H and moltres are the best Scizor counters in the game.
Chandy 2HKOs Tentacruel with LO Shadow Ball? x_x
Didn't know.


Rotom-H = Fire type that can easily beat most bulky waters = win
The only thing holding him back is his SR weakness :L

591 Atk vs 304 Def & 250 HP (120 Base Power): 167 - 197 (66.80% - 78.80%)
This is the damage that a 252 Hp Rotom-H takes from a CB Adamant's Scizor Superpower!So after SR it has a 28,21% chance to die with rocks up...
LO Scizor has about the same chance to to 2hko with Superpower and BP if Rotom-h has leftovers....
And the same happens with Moltres(with rocks up)!
So actually the 2 best Scizor counters in the game are Zapdos and Gyarados right behind!(not counting ubers of 'course)
If we're counting Scizor as a Latios counter, than lets freakin' count Rotom-H as a Scizor counter T_T
 

alexwolf

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Chandy 2HKOs Tentacruel with LO Shadow Ball? x_x
Didn't know.


Rotom-H = Fire type that can easily beat most bulky waters = win
The only thing holding him back is his SR weakness :L



If we're counting Scizor as a Latios counter, than lets freakin' count Rotom-H as a Scizor counter T_T
Nobody is counting Scizor as a counter!He is one of latios's best checks!
 

jas61292

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591 Atk vs 304 Def & 250 HP (120 Base Power): 167 - 197 (66.80% - 78.80%)
This is the damage that a 252 Hp Rotom-H takes from a CB Adamant's Scizor Superpower!
You know, if you are using it to counter Scizor it should probably have some defense investment. At max Def, Rotom-H takes 48.7% - 57.6% from CB Superpower. Yeah, Rotom-H walls Scizor.
 
Actually, alex's calc is incorrect.

Rotom has 250 Defense and 304 HP with investment:
591 Atk vs 250 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 170 - 200 (55.92% - 65.79%)


EDIT: I put Superpower as 100 base power....nvm it does 78% max.

Double EDIT: Alex, Rotom-H isn't weak to Earthquake.
 

alexwolf

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You know, if you are using it to counter Scizor it should probably have some defense investment. At max Def, Rotom-H takes 48.7% - 57.6% from CB Superpower. Yeah, Rotom-H walls Scizor.
Yes but Rotom's main use is waling special threats due to its typing!Walling scizor is just an added bonus!
Rotom-h can be seen with either specs/scarf or specially defensive!
Of 'course physically defenisve rotom-h exists but noone would ever use it so i think you get the reasoning...

Actually, alex's calc is incorrect.

Rotom has 250 Defense and 304 HP with investment:
591 Atk vs 250 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 170 - 200 (55.92% - 65.79%)
Superpower has 120 BP not 100!
If you put 120 you will get the same result as i did!

EDIT:Rotom-h is not weak to ground moves i fixed it!
 

jas61292

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Yes but Rotom's main use is waling special threats due to its typing!.....Walling scizor is just an added bonus!
Rotom-h can be seen with either specs/scarf or specially defensive!
Of 'course physically defenisve rotom-h exists but noone would ever use it so i think you get the reasoning...
Hey, I never said physically defensive Rotom-H was useful, just that it walls Scizor. It might have better uses, but if you have huge Scizor trouble, Rotom-H is definitely one of the best counters there is.
 

alexwolf

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Hey, I never said physically defensive Rotom-H was useful, just that it walls Scizor. It might have better uses, but if you have huge Scizor trouble, Rotom-H is definitely one of the best counters there is.
Agreed!But i still think that Zapdos is the number one as it has reliable recovery!
 
Rotom H and moltres are the best Scizor counters in the game.
lololol
wait a second, im bad @ internet, wear u serius?
-----
Rotom-H actually can be good with Rapid Spin support, but it's main issue is its typing. It has trouble switching in on bulky waters, because a STAB Scald will hurt it. It's great if you have issues with Steels (barring Excadrill), but it's hindered by the fact that its only Fire STAB (Overheat) makes it nearly worthless (offensively) the next turn, whereas other, similar Pokemon can continue to do their job after using a move. Due to this, Rotom-W pretty much out-classes it at the bulky, Pain Split/WoW set. I guess Rotom-H is unique in its Choice sets, but they're generally not worth it in OU, because a Choiced 'mon hates being SR-weak (which makes other 'mons typically superior choices). I would almost say that Rotom-H has Zapdos-Syndrome. I'm gonna stop now, because I think that I might be droning on redundantly.
Moltres is in the same boat, I think.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Pretty much that. That's like saying that Tyranitar has trouble switching in on physical fighting type moves.

In the calc, I question why Rotom-H is taking +2 superpower from Scizor to begin with. If you switch in on Sword's Dance, then scizor isn't outspeeding you before you cripple or kill him. The same goes for Moltres.

...Not that I was calling Moltres a great pokemon for OU. I was just mentioning him as he resists every common move that Scizor carries, can roost off the damage, and gives hail teams an easy answer to Scizor to begin with.

For me, Rotom-H's main problem isn't his SR weakness. It's having to use Overheat as it's fire STAB. This didn't bother it so much when it was still a ghost type pokemon. Now it does. Otherwise, it makes a for an all around good answer to thundurus, tornadus, jirachi, metagross, and a handful of other popular pokemon.

Don't overestimate the bulky waters by the way. You may not be able to able to OHKO them with thunderbolt, but most of them probably can't even OHKO you back. My Volcorona got hit by a Tentacruel's Scald today and lost about 16% of it's health. No, sunlight wasn't up. I didn't even use quiver dance. I just switched in.
 

alexwolf

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Pretty much that. That's like saying that Tyranitar has trouble switching in on physical fighting type moves.

In the calc, I question why Rotom-H is taking +2 superpower from Scizor to begin with. If you switch in on Sword's Dance, then scizor isn't outspeeding you before you cripple or kill him. The same goes for Moltres.

...Not that I was calling Moltres a great pokemon for OU. I was just mentioning him as he resists every common move that Scizor carries, can roost off the damage, and gives hail teams an easy answer to Scizor to begin with.

For me, Rotom-H's main problem isn't his SR weakness. It's having to use Overheat as it's fire STAB. This didn't bother it so much when it was still a ghost type pokemon. Now it does. Otherwise, it makes a for an all around good answer to thundurus, tornadus, jirachi, metagross, and a handful of other popular pokemon.

Don't overestimate the bulky waters by the way. You may not be able to able to OHKO them with thunderbolt, but most of them probably can't even OHKO you back. My Volcorona got hit by a Tentacruel's Scald today and lost about 16% of it's health. No, sunlight wasn't up. I didn't even use quiver dance. I just switched in.
Rotom isnt taking a +2 superpower.The calcs were for an adamant scizor with CB!
And noone said that you implied that moltres is a good ou poke!
We just proved that your statement about Rotom-h and Moltres being the best Scizor counters out there was false...
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Oops. My fault. Reading fail on my end there.

Actually, let me be serious for a second. The greatest Scizor counter in the realm of possibility in the pokemon world is 252 hp/252 spA flame body chandelure. The pokemon is not ohko'd or 2HKO'd by anything within Scizor's moveset. Even if Scizor wants to U-turn out to avoid you completely, he risks a 30% chance of being burned. And recovery? No problem. Run pain split! Scizor quite literally can't do anything to you, making it the greatest Scizor counter in the game. LO Bug Bite, CB Superpower. LO Brick Break. CB Bullet punch, you name it.

Whether or not 252 hp/252 spA Chandelure has any other use is not up for discussion. (But...if you want to be crazy and run this thing as your spinblocker, then I'm not stopping you).
 
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