The point was lost between the discrepancy between the two's power, ie +2 attacks hit much harder than +1 attack with weather boost and Life Orb isn't even close to a stage increase. The other point of me mentioning those attacks was that it means Seaking isn't a counter, it's a check at most since it can't come in for free all the time and it will most certainly die to any Thundrus that is at +2.
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What aren't we writing about? (Pokemon unfit for OU Analyses)
- Thread starter Seven Deadly Sins
- Start date
It is a check yes, i made a mistake there. Also, it is intended to switch in on an electric type move that thunderous will be using against rain teams. Lets think about this, if you are an NP thunderous are you going to be going for an NP boost against rain-boosted strong attackers, or are you going to be trying to kill them? Also, remember that LO boost THE FINAL STAT by 30% after everything else has been factored in. Rains is the same way, so it is even better. The only stage increase is the lightning rod boost. STAB also does everything after.
Seriously, have you peeps done damage calcs? Stop saying it doesn't hit hard, do the calcs yourself.
Also@aerodactyl legend, terrible movepool? STAB water moves, ice beam, and megahorn is enough to fill three slots with great moves. HP elec, sub, or agility can suffice for the last. While it isn't diverse, it isn't bad.
Remember what i said about seaking's bulk being JUST ENOUGH. It will cause thunder to switch out and hit whatever comes in with an incredibly powerful hydro pump. Then, it can come in later to hit something/be fodder, and thus serve its purpose.
Seriously, have you peeps done damage calcs? Stop saying it doesn't hit hard, do the calcs yourself.
Also@aerodactyl legend, terrible movepool? STAB water moves, ice beam, and megahorn is enough to fill three slots with great moves. HP elec, sub, or agility can suffice for the last. While it isn't diverse, it isn't bad.
Remember what i said about seaking's bulk being JUST ENOUGH. It will cause thunder to switch out and hit whatever comes in with an incredibly powerful hydro pump. Then, it can come in later to hit something/be fodder, and thus serve its purpose.
megahorn doesnt even count cause its not special, and your arguing lightning rod gives seaking viability. also
Borutorosu@Life Orb (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Focus Blast vs Seaking (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 54.6 ~ 64.5% (199 ~ 235 HP)
so if seaking (which is extrmely obvious on what he will do, especially if he goes on and gets an analysis for one set) comes in on focus blast he will be 2hkoed most of the time (factoring focus miss accuracy). if he switches in on a np, then seaking is dead, and then he proceeds to sweep.
he is also outclassed as a thunderbro counter in general, quagsire and gastrodon are much better at that with their typing, and gastrodon is a much better all around rain counter.
and in the end, thunderbro is practically 100% assured to be banned this round, making seaking lose the niche your giving it. making an arguement for seaking useless (there arent really any electric types besides thunderbro anyway)
Borutorosu@Life Orb (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Focus Blast vs Seaking (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 54.6 ~ 64.5% (199 ~ 235 HP)
so if seaking (which is extrmely obvious on what he will do, especially if he goes on and gets an analysis for one set) comes in on focus blast he will be 2hkoed most of the time (factoring focus miss accuracy). if he switches in on a np, then seaking is dead, and then he proceeds to sweep.
he is also outclassed as a thunderbro counter in general, quagsire and gastrodon are much better at that with their typing, and gastrodon is a much better all around rain counter.
and in the end, thunderbro is practically 100% assured to be banned this round, making seaking lose the niche your giving it. making an arguement for seaking useless (there arent really any electric types besides thunderbro anyway)
Premboy pretty much made the same calculations as everyone here already did and it clearly shows why Seaking is not going to be even considered.
Also Life Orb is not strong enough to be considered the same as a stat boost, I've done comparisons and Life Orb pales in comparison. Weather can however be argued for being as strong since the attack strength is pretty darn close to each other depending on the move used and that's something interesting I'll keep in mind for the future.
Also Life Orb is not strong enough to be considered the same as a stat boost, I've done comparisons and Life Orb pales in comparison. Weather can however be argued for being as strong since the attack strength is pretty darn close to each other depending on the move used and that's something interesting I'll keep in mind for the future.
If you want something immune to Thunderbolt and nothing else, which can also OHKO Thundurus and do plenty of damage to common walls, I suggest you just use Specs Gastrodon. It's easier to get in with all of the Water-type attacks being thrown everywhere because of Drizzle, has better natural bulk, better typing, and is an all-around better Pokemon. You can also use CB Swampert, who can predict and 2HKO Ferrothorn with Superpower, or just weaken it some with a powerful Waterfall (that also OHKOs Thundurus). It also beats Skarmory and Blissey pretty easily, and Jellicent only requires some prediction with Earthquake.
I implore you, use anything besides Seaking. Its niche is not unique at all, and even if it were the only good Thundurus counter in the game, it's still so bad overall that it won't be used on most teams.
I implore you, use anything besides Seaking. Its niche is not unique at all, and even if it were the only good Thundurus counter in the game, it's still so bad overall that it won't be used on most teams.
Unfortunately my posts were deleted (for obvious reasons to some {my keybord was acting screwy}). However, first off, seaking after an lrod boost is more powerful than gastrodon and can fight back with megahorn as well as hydro pump. As well, many thunderous run grass knot, and thus, swampert and gastrodon are screwed. This is why seaking has a niche over them.
no thunderbro has grass knot, storm drain is much more useful that lrod b/c electric moves are much less common, running a mixed set when you have 92/ 65 offenses is just a BAD idea. megahorn doesnt help with anything anyway.
trust us, seaking is not viable in OU at all. it is weak, not extremely bulky, has a niche to check something that WILL get banned next round (meaning its one niche will go away). what other electric attacks actually exist in OU, besides thundurus, to make seaking worth an analysis
trust us, seaking is not viable in OU at all. it is weak, not extremely bulky, has a niche to check something that WILL get banned next round (meaning its one niche will go away). what other electric attacks actually exist in OU, besides thundurus, to make seaking worth an analysis
We are not discussing Seaking.
I think this was brought up before, but on the chance it wasn't, I'd like to ask: Is Medicham worthy of an OU analysis?
Pure Power with Hi Jump Kick does massive damage. Medicham can have good coverage with that plus a Psychic move (Psycho Cut or Zen Headbutt) and any two desired elemental punches. Its speed isn't too bad either.
Pure Power with Hi Jump Kick does massive damage. Medicham can have good coverage with that plus a Psychic move (Psycho Cut or Zen Headbutt) and any two desired elemental punches. Its speed isn't too bad either.
Yeah, Medicham was rejected I believe.
No.
I'd like to argue for Victreebel again. It is more like Shiftry than Venusaur, which has an Analysis, so I'll look at that.
Shiftry is 0.2% more physically bulky than Victreebel. Since most priority is physical, and in the sun both are likely only hit by priority, it is easy to see that they are both frail, fast, powerful sweepers. However, Victreebel's attack stats are BOTH better than Shiftry.
Here are Shiftry and Victreebel sets:
name: Nasty Plot
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Grass Knot / Giga Drain
move 3: Dark Pulse
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Focus Blast
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
name: Special Growth
move 1: Growth
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Weather Ball
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Victreebel boasts a better SpA stat, and access to Weather Ball and Sludge Bomb. STAB Sludge Bomb hits harder than STAB Dark Pulse, and the only thing Shiftry has is the ability to beat Heatran with Focus Miss... not to mention that Weather Ball is stronger on steel types than Focus Blast.
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Seed Bomb
move 3: Faint Attack / Sucker Punch
move 4: Low Kick / Nature Power
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
name: Physical Sweeper
move 1: Growth / Swords Dance
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Weather Ball
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Naughty / Naive
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Shiftry may outclass Victreebel here. However, Power Whip is noticeably stronger than Seed Bomb.
name: Growth
move 1: Growth
move 2: Dark Pulse
move 3: Grass Knot / Giga Drain
move 4: Low Kick / Nature Power
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Rash
evs: 56 Atk / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
name: Growth
move 1: Growth
move 2: Power Whip / Leaf Blade
move 3: Sludge Bomb / HP Rock / HP Ice
move 4: HP Fire / Weather Ball / Sludge Bomb
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Rash
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
This is where Victreebel shines. Power Whip is an easy OHKO on Blissey, whereas a +2 Low Kick does 60.2 - 70.9. If Leaf Blade is used, then 196 Atk EVs and a boosting nature can be used to OHKO max def Blissey after Stealth Rocks. If priority like Scizor is beaten (honestly not that hard on a sun team), and Heatran is taken out, this Victreebel set just runs through teams due to its offensive power.
Victreebel is easily comparable to Shiftry in its mixed attacking prowess. It really shouldn't be compared to Venusaur, as even though they have the same typing, Victreebel dishes out much more damage while Venusaur is bulkier.
I think Victreebel deserves a set because of its
1.) Amazing attacking stats
2.) Power Whip and Weather Ball
Shiftry is 0.2% more physically bulky than Victreebel. Since most priority is physical, and in the sun both are likely only hit by priority, it is easy to see that they are both frail, fast, powerful sweepers. However, Victreebel's attack stats are BOTH better than Shiftry.
Here are Shiftry and Victreebel sets:
name: Nasty Plot
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Grass Knot / Giga Drain
move 3: Dark Pulse
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Focus Blast
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
name: Special Growth
move 1: Growth
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Weather Ball
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Victreebel boasts a better SpA stat, and access to Weather Ball and Sludge Bomb. STAB Sludge Bomb hits harder than STAB Dark Pulse, and the only thing Shiftry has is the ability to beat Heatran with Focus Miss... not to mention that Weather Ball is stronger on steel types than Focus Blast.
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Seed Bomb
move 3: Faint Attack / Sucker Punch
move 4: Low Kick / Nature Power
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
name: Physical Sweeper
move 1: Growth / Swords Dance
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Weather Ball
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Naughty / Naive
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Shiftry may outclass Victreebel here. However, Power Whip is noticeably stronger than Seed Bomb.
name: Growth
move 1: Growth
move 2: Dark Pulse
move 3: Grass Knot / Giga Drain
move 4: Low Kick / Nature Power
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Rash
evs: 56 Atk / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
name: Growth
move 1: Growth
move 2: Power Whip / Leaf Blade
move 3: Sludge Bomb / HP Rock / HP Ice
move 4: HP Fire / Weather Ball / Sludge Bomb
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Rash
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
This is where Victreebel shines. Power Whip is an easy OHKO on Blissey, whereas a +2 Low Kick does 60.2 - 70.9. If Leaf Blade is used, then 196 Atk EVs and a boosting nature can be used to OHKO max def Blissey after Stealth Rocks. If priority like Scizor is beaten (honestly not that hard on a sun team), and Heatran is taken out, this Victreebel set just runs through teams due to its offensive power.
Victreebel is easily comparable to Shiftry in its mixed attacking prowess. It really shouldn't be compared to Venusaur, as even though they have the same typing, Victreebel dishes out much more damage while Venusaur is bulkier.
I think Victreebel deserves a set because of its
1.) Amazing attacking stats
2.) Power Whip and Weather Ball
While I do think that Victreebel might deserve an analysis, shouldn't this point be "Power Whip or Weather Ball" since they are both egg moves from different parents? You'll have to settle for Leaf Blade instead.
If Victreebel was part of the Field Egg Group, I would be more enthusiastic in saying that it deserves an analysis. But with so many mutually exclusive breeding options, it is a little more understandable that it's on the list - it doesn't have Venusaur's bulk or Shiftry's solid secondary STAB.
That being said, it does seem to have a niche as a very offensive mixed Chlorophyll sweeper, which may or may not be enough to earn it an analysis. I've had decent results from it, for what it's worth.
When it comes down to Chlorophyll sweepers, you're going to have to make a sacrifice somewhere. Venusaur lacks the power of Power Whip, Victreebel lacks any sort of defense, Shiftry is weak to Mach Punch, Lilligant has a poor movepool, and Tangrowth is not very speedy. If you're planning a sun-based team, you have to take into account these differences and pick your sweeper. I personally run a Chlorophyll Tangrowth because it hits like a truck and can take Scizor's Bullet Punch while running a powerful mixed set. Sure, I sacrifice the speed of other Chlorophyll sweepers, but that's what suits my team.
Likewise, I believe that Victreebel can fit into the right kind of Sun team. If I needed a Pokemon to come in and hit hard and fast right out of the gate, I'd probably choose Victreebel. It has the versatility of running Power Whip / HP Fire or Seed Bomb / Weather Ball, so I could see it receiving an OU analysis.
Likewise, I believe that Victreebel can fit into the right kind of Sun team. If I needed a Pokemon to come in and hit hard and fast right out of the gate, I'd probably choose Victreebel. It has the versatility of running Power Whip / HP Fire or Seed Bomb / Weather Ball, so I could see it receiving an OU analysis.
You forgot about good old Sawsbuck and Jumpluff ;)
Really, all Chlorophyll mons we have seem to out class Victreebel in some way.
Venusaur is a better special sweeper.
Sawsbuck is a better physical sweeper.
Shifty is a better mixed sweeper.
Lilli has Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance.
Tangrowth is bulky as crap.
Jumpluff is the fastest pokemon with Sleep Powder under the sun.
Vic really doesn't have anything going for him, it's better to save him for UU.
Really, all Chlorophyll mons we have seem to out class Victreebel in some way.
Venusaur is a better special sweeper.
Sawsbuck is a better physical sweeper.
Shifty is a better mixed sweeper.
Lilli has Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance.
Tangrowth is bulky as crap.
Jumpluff is the fastest pokemon with Sleep Powder under the sun.
Vic really doesn't have anything going for him, it's better to save him for UU.
But that's not really saying much. I'm sure I could find some way that Victreebel "outclasses" each of those sweepers in their niche. More accurately, I could find some aspect of Victreebel that makes it somewhat reasonable to consider it over each of them.
Actually, I think I'll do just that.
Victreebel has Weather Ball, opening up the Hidden Power slot for another coverage type. It also has Giga Drain, which is often preferable to Energy Ball.
Victreebel has more Attack, Power Whip, and Sucker Punch. If you are trying to get rid of Subs/Sturdy, it also has Bullet Seed as an option.
Better attacking stats, Weather Ball, and a better physical Grass STAB.
Victreebel has Sleep Powder as well. No Quiver Dance, but it can still boost SpA and SpD with Growth and Stockpile if you really need them. Speed isn't exactly a major factor when you already have the Chlorophyll boost.
Most importantly, Victreebel has much better coverage, meaning that it can take better advantage of its boosts by being harder to wall.
Victreebel has a higher SpD, Stockpile, and Synthesis. While it has crappy overall defenses out of the box, a boost or two makes it semi-respectable.
Most of that speed is wasted, though. Victreebel is better able to take advantage of the fast Sleep Powder.
Except that he isn't really viable in UU without Drought. Also, it's not like writing an OU analysis for him somehow prevents people from writing a UU one.
Edit: Just to clarify, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and don't really think that Victreebel should replace Tangrowth on a team - it isn't exactly a physical wall. But as a Special or Mixed Sweeper, it isn't strictly outclassed by anything, even if Venusaur/Shiftry are generally preferable.
nice catch, I'll edit that in.
Victreebel with Power Whip, Growth, Hidden Power Fire, and Sleep Powder can cause immediate havoc on enemy teams:
Got a counter? Sleep it.
Wanna power up on their switch? Growth it.
Got a Special Wall like Blissey? Whip it.
Got a Steel, Bug, Grass type? Hidden Power it.
P.S. Shiftry doesn't even get Sleep Powder, so it has one more advantage over Shiftry= safe boosting. Unlike Shiftry it resists Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and absorbs Toxic Spikes. It also isn't weak to Bug attacks like U-turn, and quad resists Grass making switch-ins easier in comparison, and makes up for it being fragile more than Shiftry's attributes can.
Got a counter? Sleep it.
Wanna power up on their switch? Growth it.
Got a Special Wall like Blissey? Whip it.
Got a Steel, Bug, Grass type? Hidden Power it.
P.S. Shiftry doesn't even get Sleep Powder, so it has one more advantage over Shiftry= safe boosting. Unlike Shiftry it resists Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and absorbs Toxic Spikes. It also isn't weak to Bug attacks like U-turn, and quad resists Grass making switch-ins easier in comparison, and makes up for it being fragile more than Shiftry's attributes can.