np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[SuperMegaUltra]

I would also like to Express my hate to Sub protect Gliscor. If it's running ax speed, it's an even bigger bitch. It switches in so easily on many things and gets a free sub. If you don't have something faster or a Skarm/zong, then your in a world of hurt.

Also, using BP on Gliscor is good. It's pretty effective at passing subs thanks to Posion Heal and can also SD/RP and pass to something that needs it. Screw SmashPass, BP Gliscor's where it's at :D

 

[alphatron]

He is. I would vouch for sublure's viability, but I don't have a check next to my name yet.

...To hell with that. Sublure is great stuff. SD Scizor, ferrothorn...the substitute oppurtunities are everywhere. And it's strong as hell. LO shadow ball 2hkos standard tentacruel. It can take on Blissey with sun and hazard support too.

 

[Meru]

SubLure is probably the only Chandelure I'd ever use in OU. Chandelure doesn't have the recovery or hazard avoidance to guess and hope it'll cripple a would-be counter the way Gliscor does with Ice Fang or Rotom-W does with Will-O-Wisp. It generally is lucky to get in more than once per game, so Substitute helps to ease that prediction and go for that one fatal sweep/wallbreak

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Thundurus was never widely used like Garchomp was in gen4, probably because of how easy it is to revenge kill. It's pretty hard to abuse because it has specific needs for teammates backing it up. You can't just throw it on any team and expect to get KOs like you could with Blaziken and Garchomp. 13% sounds about right to me, although I have noticed that rain teams aren't using it all the time in the last couple of days.

 

[dori]

It's probably the circle of life for Pokemon. Everyone uses Thundurus, so then everyone stops using it to use things to prepare for Thundurus, only Thundurus isn't around to be countered anymore. Just wait for people to start letting their guard down about Thundurus and someone will notice and start the trend of abusing Thundurus again.

 

[Requiem[9]]

The first thing that i can tell you is that lately, we have discussed Rotom-C to be a good checker for rain and can go special defensive to take hydro pump and kills water-things with thunder/Volt Switch/Thunderbolt/Leaf Storm, then, can cripple many physical threats with will-o.

If you're using Rotom-C as a tool against rain teams, you should honestly just use specially defensive Rotom-W for the ice and flying resistances. Rotom-C's strengths are his amazing resistance to electric and resistance to grass: he's fantastic on teams that would otherwise have a huge Rotom-W or Virizion weakness and he's nice as a tool against non-NP Thundurus, but he should only really be used as a check to rain if you're going to get significant mileage in those areas. I used Rotom-C for the entirety of last period and, though its defenses are fine on paper, it's really difficult to keep alive. Pain Split is mediocre recovery that it gets few opportunities to use profitably and, in my opinion, an important characteristic of a teamslot like the one Rotom-C occupies is the absolute freedom to just blind-switch into several pokemon -- notably Politoad -- which, unlike Celebi or Gastrodon, it doesn't have. Either of which you should really be using as a stopper to rain if you don't need to utility of Levitate and Will-o-Wisp too. I mean, it's definitely a cool niche pokemon and I encourage using it, but it's one of those pokemon, like Mew, where you really have to ask yourself if any other pokemon could fill the teamslot better.

 

[shrang]

Damn it fools, why are you all discovering Rotom-C now? I thought I could get away with cheap kills with it.

SubLure is probably the only Chandelure I'd ever use in OU. Chandelure doesn't have the recovery or hazard avoidance to guess and hope it'll cripple a would-be counter the way Gliscor does with Ice Fang or Rotom-W does with Will-O-Wisp. It generally is lucky to get in more than once per game, so Substitute helps to ease that prediction and go for that one fatal sweep/wallbreak

It DOES have Pain Split... so unless you play like an idiot, you can get some recovery from time to time. Granted, Fire/Ghost isn't the best coverage ever, but it is still usable.

 

[Katakiri]

Yes. Please. Go ahead and think that Tangrowth and Lilligant are so much better than Venusaur. My stall team absolutely loves to face a sun team that doesn't have a toxic spikes absorber. Sacrificing Forry Turn 1 just to demolish the rest of your team is too fun.

Then tell me, little star man, how many times must I use Safeguard & use Healing Wish on Dual-Fire-Mixed Infernape until you start crying? In sunlight, I only need one Pokemon to crush entire stall team. Funny part is, you have to deal with him 3 times as my 2 Healing Wishers bring him back for more and even cure poisoning from switching in.

Long story short:

...I love Drought and the people that underestimate it...God help me I love it...

 

[alphatron]

Unless the opponent is running a heatran or some direct sun hate, stalling a good sun team should not be possible. Even then, heatran isn't going to save you from the likes of nasty plot infernape in sunlight. Actually, nothing will.

Then again, I'm pretty sure Meru runs CBtar.

Oh, that's right. Has PO fixed healing wish yet? It heals before hazards kick in at all.

 

[Katakiri]

Oh, that's right. Has PO fixed healing wish yet? It heals before hazards kick in at all.

No...it still heals after hazards like it always has...Is that REALLY how it works in-game?! That's so damn broken and I hope it's the truth!

Okay...I know there's two ways to take that statement, Alpha, and I'll look like an idiot if I took it the wrong way but if you're saying that it's supposed to work like that and not the other way around then...oh my god.

I can not even tell you how many times I've had to keep Ninetales in just because she'd faint from Stealth Rock anyway. But holy shit if that's really how it's supposed to work...if I can get to the top 10 of the ladder with a SR weak Healing Wish, I should be raping ass with "lol I survived with 1 HP. Time to heal!" Healing Wish.

That CAN'T be how it works in-game! Someone would have noticed something that broken and abuse-able. I mean, my team; Offensive Healing Wish Jirachi & Offensive Healing Wish Lilligant. I might as well have 8 Pokemon slots if that's the case because Healing Wishes coming from 328 & 526 speed...

Alpha, you have completely fucked my mind. SOMEONE TEST THIS IN-GAME! ...There is no way it works like that! Just..no way! FAR too good to have been overlooked.

 

[Jaxx]

Just to clear this up.

As researched here healing wish/lunar dance heals before taking damage from entry hazards.

 

[alphatron]

Yes kata. That is exactly what I meant. You and I are in the same boat here on everything; finding out that it worked in game like that shocked me even more than the growth buff and Ninetales getting drought.

Completely unrelated, but you wouldn't happen to be a member of the kittycorp forums, would you?

 

[Charro]

I have say it before and I will say it now, Sun is the most difficult weather to beat without your own, at least in my experience, even without Water absorb, rain boosted Hydro Pump is not insta-kill as sun boosted Flare Blitz, Darmanitan is just fucking impossible to counter in sun, you need to sacrifice something to catch it, and with Forry around is not easy to keep your hazards up (is not like people carries a spin blocker just for sr), I have been always using things like Latias, Virizion, Quagsire and such that I have literally little to zero problems with Rain and Sandstorm so that's probably just my opinion, but a GOOD sun team, is pretty hard to beat (except when I was testing SubLure and I won 6-0 against 3 sun teams in a row :U)

Back on topic, Healing Wish does indeed heal before hazards damage, I thought that it always worked like that on PO . 3., I remember abusing it a little in 4th gen with...err...I think that it was Mesprit

 

[SuperMegaUltra]

Because sun is the least used of the weather types, some people probably don't think about it and concentrate on other weather sweepers and major threats such as Gliscor, Excadrill, Thunderus, Rotom-W etc

 

[Matthew]

Something I have had a bit of success with is using Hail, which is a pretty underrated strategy. Considering that in most 1 on 1 matches Abomasnow is actually going to take out all the other weather starters by itself. but that's really mostly luck. It's true the only realy abuser of hail is Specs Kyurem or whatever, but Specs Kyurem is a monster, when they don't realize that STAB Blizzard requires a Steel-type switch in more than Draco Meteor (okay exaggerating, whatever) is fantastic. Plus LO versions of Starmie love to spam Blizzard alongside Hydro Pump. Either way, hail is cool, give it a try sometime.

Something I've loved using in every team ever lately (well besides rain) is NP Mixape. With NP, Fire Blast, Grass Knot, Close Combat, Infernape can wreck holes in the "standard team." The set will rape everything not names Lati@s. Suggest you check it out!

 

[dori]

While Sun is extremely effective against the usual standard teams, it's absolute shit vs anyone who doesn't uses the exact same formulated whether teams. For example, one of the biggest bitch ever to face is DD Lefties Dragonite. Or even DD Lum Dragonite, or DD Substitute Dragonite. It's near impossible to stop with a Sun team when you're using the generic build with Ninetales/Volcarona/Dugtrio/Venusaur/filler/filler.

Another huge issue is Latios. A Sun team just can't take it. Usually your only hope is to sacrifice something, and bring in Volcarona in an attempt to sweep the other team. Except this is much harder if you were unable to Espeon/Forretress away SR since even a -2 will destroy you.

Then you have to deal with those random mono Dragon teams. Sun can't deal with that either. Venusaurs Sawsbucks and Liligant can't actually OHKO them with their STABs or with HP Ice, which is rare enough (unless you use it against Salamence).

And of course all Sun teams are actually Volacarona weak themselves unless they use Heatran, though I find that nearly useless seeing as how it's too slow to actually abuse the Sun.

And now the most troubling issue is, if the opponent's Tornadus is hitting all of it's 70% Hurricanes (and or Focus Blast). Nothing wants to take those Specs/LO/EB/WG Hurricanes on Sun teams. I'd always have to do the Latios method and sacrifice something to Venusaur it out next.

So yeah, Sun might be easy against the average ladderer but it's probably the worst kind of team to use against someone good, or in an important match, and I'm pretty sure no one cares what works on ladder, as proven by the RMT forum's influx of "my team made #1!!!!" and then you see it's a Tyranitar/Excadrill/Gliscor/Jirachi core.

 

[SuperMegaUltra]

Specs blizzard from a Kyurem on a Bliss is a 3HKO. With SR damage, you do have a slight chance to 2HKO, but any more hazard damage and the thing is good as dead. Kyurem is a force on hail teams. Shame Stallrein can't be as effective...

 

[badabing]

Something I have had a bit of success with is using Hail, which is a pretty underrated strategy. Considering that in most 1 on 1 matches Abomasnow is actually going to take out all the other weather starters by itself. but that's really mostly luck. It's true the only realy abuser of hail is Specs Kyurem or whatever, but Specs Kyurem is a monster, when they don't realize that STAB Blizzard requires a Steel-type switch in more than Draco Meteor (okay exaggerating, whatever) is fantastic. Plus LO versions of Starmie love to spam Blizzard alongside Hydro Pump. Either way, hail is cool, give it a try sometime.

Something I've loved using in every team ever lately (well besides rain) is NP Mixape. With NP, Fire Blast, Grass Knot, Close Combat, Infernape can wreck holes in the "standard team." The set will rape everything not names Lati@s. Suggest you check it out!

Doesn't even need np to be effective. I run Mach to check dory or u-turn to catch latias and gain momentum. Nape and stuff like mixmence dominate against the popular balance cores that broken shit has forced the meta to adapt to.

 

[Bologo]

I've tried all the weathers, but when I tried Sun, I stuck with it and never looked back.

Simply put, the Chlorophyll users are bloody awesome, and Ninetales is pretty sweet too if you pair him with Wobb to take out the other weather starters.

Stacking several Chlorophyll users on a team seems to work out pretty well for me, and I have DD Scrafty as my glue to the sweeping core. I personally find that Sawsbuck and Tangrowth are the best Chlorophyll users, simply because they're very difficult to wall when you pair them up, especially if Scrafty is with them.

I like Sawsbuck the most because he not only hits ridiculously hard with Return (easily solving the Dragonite problem since he does not take Return well at all, especially after Multi-scale is deactivated), but also that after a SD, literally the only things that switch in on him safely are Skarmory and Chandelure (who's screwed if you carry Nature Power). Also, none of the weather starters can switch in directly against him because T-tar gets killed by Jump Kick or Horn Leech, Abomasnow can't take a Jump Kick, and Politoed dies to Horn Leech. Having 95 base Speed is also nice, because it means that even when he's Adamant, he's able to outspeed damn near everything, and after a SD, OHKO/2HKO everything. I also have a hard-on for Horn Leech, because absorption moves really make the game hopeless for the opponent once Sawsbuck is set up.

That's why I also like Tangrowth, because unlike Venusaur, he can use Giga Drain with Chlorophyll, and unlike Lilligant, he doesn't have the defenses of a wet paper bag (at least physically). He also doesn't take a ton from Scizor's CB Bullet Punch (I believe it's 40% or so, which is pretty good considering he's investing nothing in his defenses).

When I was at the top 20, I started noticing a lot more Sun teams, so it seems that while a lot of newer players think Sun sucks, a lot of experienced players seem to think otherwise.

 

[Pocket]

Specs blizzard from a Kyurem on a Bliss is a 3HKO. With SR damage, you do have a slight chance to 2HKO, but any more hazard damage and the thing is good as dead. Kyurem is a force on hail teams. Shame Stallrein can't be as effective...

Specs Blizzard is doing 25-30% to Blissey, so with very little residual damage, Kyrum scores that 3HKO with SR. However, 3HKO doesn't quite cut it against Blissey. Kyurem needs 3 layers of Spikes and SR to even have a chance to 2HKO a Blissey with ~90% health.

Combined with Spikeshuffling and some physical offense, Blissey can be forced out and easily worn down enough for that 2HKO, though (need to be dropped at around 79% if SR and 1 layer of Spikes is on the field).

 

[Ewil]

What you think is the best set on Ninetales ?

 

[dori]

I find that Sawsbuck is best used like a revenge killer in an Excadrill mold. 4 Attack LO. It's the fastest of the abusers (sorry Jumpluff). Because at times you ALWAYS find yourself wishing you had that other move. If the opponent sees Jump Kick, it can conclude that the other 2 moves are definitely Horn Leech and Return (though I prefer Double-Edge despite the huge reciol). They would then -never- expect a Nature Power.

Tangrowth is also very nice but remember why you're using Sun in the first place: for speed. Venusaur's, Lilligant's, and Sawbuck's main draw is that it can still outspeed Scarf Heatran, Scarf Gengar, Scarf Latis, Scarf Landorus and Scarf Rotoms.

But yeah, having a random non Sun oriented Poke like Scrafty is good, it means you can still actually win if your Sun got removed, and it's great at abusing -2 Latios. Of course it's always so very tempting to use Fire Punch on it if you're on a Sun team since Skarmory are usually annoying and cocky and you'll definitely win if it decides to BB first or even set down a layer thinking it can just Roost+WW next.

Now Hail...hail seems to work best as just an anti-weather buffer, not an actual strategy. There are a lot of times where you find this good 5 Poke core but then you see yourself randomly weak to one weather abuser. Why not just stuff a Scarf Abomasnow there? There are always things to switch it into, provided you can actually predict, but you can still come in on 2/4 of Exca's and 3/4 of Thundurus normally.

Also don't be afraid to randomly slap Outrage on Kyurem. Min Atk is still a good 296 and that'll definitely dent Blissey up. You can afford to negative one of its decent defenses.

The best Ninetales set has to have a status move (Will-O-Wisp will fuck Tyranitar, Toxic helps against Politoed, though WOW is equally useful against Choiced Politoeds). Energy Ball isn't useless cause it can give you a good 20-30% to those on switch in's if you have that luxury, but it isn't absolutely necessary.

 

[Tobes]

What you think is the best set on Ninetales ?

I personally use NP Ninetales with Air Balloon, mostly because I don't like LO recoil on my inducers and it screws with Dugtrio. However Life Orb packs a fair amount of power and is worth considering if you run Wobbuffet.

Generally I use:

Ninetales @ Air Balloon
Drought
Timid 4/0/0/252/0/252
- Flamethrower
- HP Fighting
- Hypnosis
- Nasty Plot

But if you run the right support then this can work as well:

Ninetales @ Life Orb
Drought
Timid 4/0/0/252/0/252
- Fire Blast
- HP Fighting
- Energy Ball
- Nasty Plot

Keep in mind that both sets are susceptible to Scarf Tyranitar and Scarf Politoed switching in.

 

[Itachi Uchiha]

when will this round end?

 

[TickingSeedotBomb]

what's a good Latios counter? I noticed my team has major problems with him. are T-tar and specially defensive steels pretty much the only / best things to counter it? I'd assume T-tar is best but i'm running a Politoed so should I start using Jirachi?