Sand discussion thread

ha ha! yeah, Own Tempo has few uses. Though you're better off with Regenerator because if you hit yourself in confusion you can switch out, recovering health and curing confusion. Although if you have some calm minds up, just attack and hope you don't keep hitting yourself. He won't be doing much to himself anyway with meh attack.
 
Stoutland is a must on almost any offensive Sand Team. I was down 4-2 and Stoutland had 40 HP left and it took him down to one. Mandibuzz came in and finished it.
 
Stoutland is a must on almost any offensive Sand Team. I was down 4-2 and Stoutland had 40 HP left and it took him down to one. Mandibuzz came in and finished it.
It's true, I donno if I would even use sand without Stouts.

Another reason why Golurk is so good in Sand. Partner him with Stoutie, and you've got a physical core that can rock any foundation. Hippo with Yawn is a great way to gain a foothold position anytime in the match, and you just fill in the gaps for the last 3.

Sand is truly a beast here in Gen 5 UU.
 
On the surface, Stoutland looks like another one of those Pokemon you catch early game and has no use otherwise.

Look deeper and you see a Pokemon that can really shake a team.

Golurk is boss and find it hard to believe that its NU. I tend to see Ambipom leads on the ladder on the beta server so naturally it is gonna go for Fake Out so I can't set up first turn. I switch to Golurk and it is forced to U-Turn while I set up a Sub.
 
Stourk (Stoutland + Golurk) is a great offensive synergy that's for sure. (Though I have trouble using Stoutland, which is I guess something more personal than anything else)

But anyone has tried Sigilyph? With magic guard it can easily ignore SS damage, whilst giving you a flier and a good set-up sweeper (CP/CM with Stored Power), staller (Toxic/Roost/Substitute together with Sandstorm will be useful for more stallish-oriented teams... I guess) or even try an offensive set with LO (Psychock/Energyball/Charge Beam or Calm Mind/Icebeam) which has worked wonders at times.

I really like sand in UU but hate it in OU, I guess it's because the Mole isn't in UU because he's almost a must on every sandstorm team.
 
But anyone has tried Sigilyph? With magic guard it can easily ignore SS damage, whilst giving you a flier and a good set-up sweeper (CP/CM with Stored Power), staller (Toxic/Roost/Substitute together with Sandstorm will be useful for more stallish-oriented teams... I guess) or even try an offensive set with LO (Psychock/Energyball/Charge Beam or Calm Mind/Icebeam) which has worked wonders at times.
I've used Sigilyph on almost all of my UU Sand teams. I'm finding him really good on my current team, as he has excellent synergy with Omastar. Sigilyph resists or is immune to all of Omastar's weaknesses except Electric which Hippopotas, Nidoqueen or Cradily can take anyway.

I've had the most success with the Psycho Shift + Cosmic Power set as it can set up on so many things though. Trick is the worst though, if I see Rotom-H in the team preview I'm afraid to set up, even if I'm not 100% sure if it's got Trick. I've tried the offensive Life Orb set but I found it underwhelming before the boost, and without Roost (or any recovery at all for that matter), I found it hard to get to more than +1.

On another topic, what are people's thoughts on Empoleon with Flash Cannon on Sandstorm teams as a check to Hail and BlizzSpam Pokemon? Empoleon 4x resists Ice, and Flash Cannon gets STAB and is super-effective on Abomasnow, Froslass, Mamoswine, and neutral on Walrien which could be covered with Grass Knot.
 
I actually really never thought of that before. Outside of BlizzSpam, does Flash Cannon offer any other utility?
Unless I'm having total brain freeze right now, I don't think it does much else outside of that. I guess you hit Cradily a little harder than you would with Ice Beam thanks to STAB... whoop-de-doo.

So I mean, for the most part, it's probably not as useful as say Roar or even another coverage move, but I feel like if you're specifically having a problem with Hail teams, it could catch some people off guard. I've got to leave for work in a few minutes, but I think I'm going to test it out tonight.I will update with results later. =P

EDIT: I didn't want to double post, so I hope people actually read my edit. =P Been testing Empoleon as a Hail check. So far I'm finding it pretty good. Flash Cannon is neat, and catches a lot of people thinking that their Abomasnow can easily tank a neutral Ice Beam off guard. I'm using a combination of my own EV spread with an almost identical moveset to the specially defensive set in the analysis. If anyone wants to test it for themselves since I have to go to bed since i have to be up for work in six hours, I'll post the set here. ;D
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Calm
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 SpD
-Scald
-Flash Cannon
-Grass Knot
-Roar

^That is what I have been testing out. Scald is your obvious Water STAB and it burns stuff like Ferroseed which lolz at Toxic Spikes. I have no need for Stealth Rock on Empoleon since Hippopotas sets that up, so that frees up a move slot for Flash Cannon. Flash Cannon is the whole reason I'm now using Empoleon over Cradily; it gives me a nice check for Hail while still being able to check bulky waters such as Slowbro and Suicune. Grass Knot is the third move as both of the STAB moves are resisted by other Water types, which is unwelcome, especially when this Pokemon took Cradily's spot on the team. And finally Roar is in the last slot over Ice Beam. I don't have any other pHazing moves on the team (unless you count Yawn on Hippopotas) and Roar goes really well with Nidoqueen's Toxic Spikes. It also teaches things like Suicune a lesson if they attempt to set up on Empoleon. Unfortunately this leaves no room for Ice Beam, but Sigilpyh handles most Grass types fairly well, as it resists their STAB and doesn't care about Leech Seed. For the EV spread, I maxed out both HP and special attack, which gives Empoleon a nice mixed of both power and bulk. The rest in special defense with a Calm nature to help take special attacks even better, since it can burn things with Scald to ease the pressure from the physical spectrum. Leftovers is the item because Empoleon has NO recovery outside of Rest. Seriously, it's a fucking bird and it doesn't learn Roost. Even Dunsparce gets Roost, and it can't even fly. Way to fail, GameFreak.

If anyone has a Sandstorm team, feel free to test out the set and let us all know your thoughts! Would it be better with four attacks and no Roar? If that's the case, should it have Life Orb? Does it need all those special attack EVs to get the required KOs (Abomasnow, Froslass, Mamoswine)?

ok. bedtiem nao. >_<
 
EDIT: I didn't want to double post, so I hope people actually read my edit. =P Been testing Empoleon as a Hail check. So far I'm finding it pretty good. Flash Cannon is neat, and catches a lot of people thinking that their Abomasnow can easily tank a neutral Ice Beam off guard. I'm using a combination of my own EV spread with an almost identical moveset to the specially defensive set in the analysis. If anyone wants to test it for themselves since I have to go to bed since i have to be up for work in six hours, I'll post the set here. ;D
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Calm
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 SpD
-Scald
-Flash Cannon
-Grass Knot
-Roar

^That is what I have been testing out. Scald is your obvious Water STAB and it burns stuff like Ferroseed which lolz at Toxic Spikes. I have no need for Stealth Rock on Empoleon since Hippopotas sets that up, so that frees up a move slot for Flash Cannon. Flash Cannon is the whole reason I'm now using Empoleon over Cradily; it gives me a nice check for Hail while still being able to check bulky waters such as Slowbro and Suicune. Grass Knot is the third move as both of the STAB moves are resisted by other Water types, which is unwelcome, especially when this Pokemon took Cradily's spot on the team. And finally Roar is in the last slot over Ice Beam. I don't have any other pHazing moves on the team (unless you count Yawn on Hippopotas) and Roar goes really well with Nidoqueen's Toxic Spikes. It also teaches things like Suicune a lesson if they attempt to set up on Empoleon. Unfortunately this leaves no room for Ice Beam, but Sigilpyh handles most Grass types fairly well, as it resists their STAB and doesn't care about Leech Seed. For the EV spread, I maxed out both HP and special attack, which gives Empoleon a nice mixed of both power and bulk. The rest in special defense with a Calm nature to help take special attacks even better, since it can burn things with Scald to ease the pressure from the physical spectrum. Leftovers is the item because Empoleon has NO recovery outside of Rest. Seriously, it's a fucking bird and it doesn't learn Roost. Even Dunsparce gets Roost, and it can't even fly. Way to fail, GameFreak.

If anyone has a Sandstorm team, feel free to test out the set and let us all know your thoughts! Would it be better with four attacks and no Roar? If that's the case, should it have Life Orb? Does it need all those special attack EVs to get the required KOs (Abomasnow, Froslass, Mamoswine)?

ok. bedtiem nao. >_<
Mind you, it is a bird known pretty well for not being able to fly...

Anyway haven't tested but I did some calcs for the pokes you mentioned, using your spread:

Flash Cannon vs Abomasnow 28 HP / 0 SpD neutral nature ~ 84.1% - 99.1 (Scarf)
Flash Cannon vs Abomasnow 248 HP / 8 SpD neutral nature ~ 69.5% - 82% (Bulky Specs)
Flash Cannon vs Abomasnow 252 HP / 252 SpD +ve nature ~ 49% - 58.3%
Flash Cannon vs Froslass 0 HP / 0 SpD neutral nature ~ 111% - 131%
Flash Cannon vs Froslass 248 HP / 0 SpD neutral nature ~ 91.5% - 108.5%
Flash Cannon vs Mamoswine 0 HP / 0 SpD neutral nature ~ 98.6% - 116.3%

You need Modest to garauntee the OHKOs on Scarfsnow, max HP Froslass and Mamoswine, and 2HKOs on Specsnow and Defensive Abomasnow. I don't know if Mamoswine is really an important KO though, since there's no way he's switching into either of Empoleon's STABs or Grass Knot, and if he gets in on a revenge kill, that faster Earthquake is forcing you out.
 
Mind you, it is a bird known pretty well for not being able to fly...

Anyway haven't tested but I did some calcs for the pokes you mentioned, using your spread:

Flash Cannon vs Abomasnow 28 HP / 0 SpD neutral nature ~ 84.1% - 99.1 (Scarf)
Flash Cannon vs Abomasnow 248 HP / 8 SpD neutral nature ~ 69.5% - 82% (Bulky Specs)
Flash Cannon vs Abomasnow 252 HP / 252 SpD +ve nature ~ 49% - 58.3%
Flash Cannon vs Froslass 0 HP / 0 SpD neutral nature ~ 111% - 131%
Flash Cannon vs Froslass 248 HP / 0 SpD neutral nature ~ 91.5% - 108.5%
Flash Cannon vs Mamoswine 0 HP / 0 SpD neutral nature ~ 98.6% - 116.3%

You need Modest to garauntee the OHKOs on Scarfsnow, max HP Froslass and Mamoswine, and 2HKOs on Specsnow and Defensive Abomasnow. I don't know if Mamoswine is really an important KO though, since there's no way he's switching into either of Empoleon's STABs or Grass Knot, and if he gets in on a revenge kill, that faster Earthquake is forcing you out.
Yeah, I know it can't fly, but like.. it doesn't look like Dunsparce can either. =P

Anyway, thank you for the calcs! So if Stealth Rock is down, it's a guarenteed KO on Scarf Abomasnow and all Froslass, even without Modest. When I get home later this weekend, I'm going to test Modest over Calm, and see how much he misses the SpD boost. Guarenteeing the KO on ScarfSnow even without rocks is nice, meaning I get Sand for the rest of the match as long as I keep my Hippo alive. Rocks + Modest will also mean a good chance of an OHKO on SpecSnow too, which is nice.
I feel like Modest Empoleon's greatest selling point though, is the guarenteed 2HKO on specially bulky Abomasnow though, even without Rocks. Good point on Mamoswine though, he will still be a problem. Sigilyph comes in easily on the Earthquake, but then Icicle Crash is a problem. Do you happen to know how much speed would be needed to be able to outspeed and burn Mamoswine before it crushes Sigilpyh with icicle Crash?
Thanks again for giving me more stuff to think about. =)

Also, just throwing it out there, what are everyone's thoughts on a good Hippopotas EV spread? I've been using max HP with a mix of Def and SpD, since couples with Eviolite, the SpD investment actually lets it live through random Scalds and certain unSTABbed Ice Beams even. Is it too situational though?
 
Been using LO Gastrodon over Cradily and it's been working pretty damn well. Surf and Ice Beam are the main reason to be using Gastrodon over Cradily, along with an immunity to Electric and Water attacks. Roserade's are dealt with pretty easily with a predicted +1 Ice Beam with Stealth Rock up. (2HKO'd by +0, but it's not like you're going to outspeed). I've been using Sigilyph over Golurk, with Stoutland + Houndoom as a more offensive core. Houndoom traps Ghost-types with Pursuit + Sucker Punch, while roasting Steel-types with Overheat so I can spam Choice Band STAB Adamant Frustration all the damn time.

Oh, and I've been using 252 HP | 252 Def, to really fuck with shit like Donphan, Heracross, etc. Over 400 Def with over 300 HP isn't that horrible, especially with reliable recovery.
 
Been testing Empoleon as a Hail check. So far I'm finding it pretty good. Flash Cannon is neat, and catches a lot of people thinking that their Abomasnow can easily tank a neutral Ice Beam off guard. I'm using a combination of my own EV spread with an almost identical moveset to the specially defensive set in the analysis. If anyone wants to test it for themselves since I have to go to bed since i have to be up for work in six hours, I'll post the set here. ;D
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Calm
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 SpD
-Scald
-Flash Cannon
-Grass Knot
-Roar
Maybe you could consider Agility instead of Roar for the last slot? With an investment of 100 Speed EVs (neutral nature), Empoleon will outrun any ScarfAbomasnow or Froslass set after just one boost. You won't have to worry about Mamoswine revenge killing you anymore, either. Without a boost, 100 Speed EVs also lets you outrun the standard Stallrein with 56 Speed EVs, as well as an uninvested Hitmontop (usually the bulkier Intimidate set). Empoleon should have no trouble forcing a switch against a hail team, so setting up should be a breeze.
 
Empoleon with Flash cannon is definitely a solid check to hail. I run specs empoleon on a team and against hail it's super easy to get in and ohkos or 2hkos almost the entire team. The only common hail pokes that dont mind it are fire or water types that he can ko with the appropriate move. I imagine your tank set would work nicely as well.
 
I really can not imagine NOT using Stoutland in sand. I used him OU (!) in the early stages of the metagame and he got like 3 kills a match. he is not to be messed with, and I really dont see he shouldn't be used.
 
Seeing as Grass is a severe drawback in sand, I had an idea that may be of some use. Sap Sipper Sawsbuck. Run either a band or scarf and unleash hell with a +1 Megahorn. Even unSTAB that is going to hurt most. You could run Life Orb but he frail as it is.
 
Woah, I did not except so much feedback. Thanks for all the things to think about. I posted my Sandstorm team using said Empoleon in the RMT forum if anyone wants to check it out. :3

I really can not imagine NOT using Stoutland in sand. I used him OU (!) in the early stages of the metagame and he got like 3 kills a match. he is not to be messed with, and I really dont see he shouldn't be used.
Anyone using Sandstorm in UU without Stoutland is doing something wrong. ;D
 
I just have to say: Gligar and Empoleon make an AMAZING defensive combo. They resist 15 of the 17 types in the game the other 2 being fire (lol) and unfornutaley grass. Gligar with 500 or so defense and Empoleon with amzing Special Defnse. Between the two they can toxic stall and phaze amazingly and Is better then Empoleon and Zapdos core due to better bulk at neutrality to stealth rock. Gligar also has Sand Veil just to be as annoying as Garchomp. Now thta I think about: Lairon and Gligar would make an almost as good core to with Lairons better special bulk and not having to resort to flash cannon to kill ice types
 
Unfortunately Lairon's weaknesses are just too terrible to use defensively,that's why he isn't used more often. It's so sad how bad rock is defensively, I mean why did GF have to give it FIVE weaknesses and like 1 (useful) resist? That's almost as bad as ice for god's sake! I mean why did they have to make Aggron/Lairon so damn cool but so damn crippled?

/rant


That being said Gligar is a gigantic pain in the ass, unless you run an ice move. He'll just toxic your whole team and roost off any damage it takes. I can see how him coupled with an empoleon would be difficult to take out without amazing prediction.

The only problem I can see is something like weavile. He outspeeds and 2HKOs both of them. I mean they 2HKO back, but if it's something like banded weavile (who will switch often) or if he gets and SD off (on a non-banded set obviously :P) then it'll really punch a hole into that.
 
oh yeah weaville is a problem. Theyre also setup fodder in the face of Substitue Mismagius. Gligar is actually set up fodder for anything with sub and a ground resist so all other subroosters are bitches. Ive actually been considering whirlwind on it just for those. Luckily Stoutland can take those threats pretty well but its hard becasue you generally wanna save stoutland for cleaning which is hard to do if hes crippled by a toxic or a mismagius's +2 thunderbolt.

EDIT: Would also like to note that Rhyperior and Virizion are a kickass offensive duo. Not the CM one but the SD one can attract setup fodder for Rhyperior and vice versa; one is specially bulky and one physically, Rhyperior kills fire and flyings for Verizion and Verizion eliminates water and steels for Rhyperior. Verizion also outspeed and kills a lot of threats to sandstorm in general. Even those that counter the two of them are broken down by the sheer power they offer.

I am also testing out defensive Omastar. But it has great physical and special bulk thanks two sandstorms and access to all entry hazards is great on a sand stall team.

EDIT's EDit I put Omastar on my team and had a totoall grass weakness. Im about to try spikes roselia or whirlipede that should be interesting to say the least. How do you guys deal with a grass weakness?
 
1) I was under the impression that Virizion was OU?

2) Roselia is great at putting up spikes in OU, but I haven't tried it in UU yet (oh the irony). Considering how fire types might not be as common in UU with the absence of drought, it might be a good idea. Plus, Natural cure is amazing.

I was using Spikes/Giga Drain/ Hp Fire/ Rest. Rest is kinda filler, but it worked while I was using it.

I've always wanted to try Scolipede (that was the one you meant, right?). he's fast and can really pack a punch with SD Megahorn if you don't want him to spike.
 
has anyone tried eviolite gabite?
I have. It's a little underwhelming, especially without access to Swords Dance. I was running a set like:

-Sub
-Hone Claws
-Earthquake
-Outrage

Maybe I was just running a bad set, but, I dunno =/ He just isn't anywhere near as awesome as his big brother
 
1) I was under the impression that Virizion was OU?

2) Roselia is great at putting up spikes in OU, but I haven't tried it in UU yet (oh the irony). Considering how fire types might not be as common in UU with the absence of drought, it might be a good idea. Plus, Natural cure is amazing.

I was using Spikes/Giga Drain/ Hp Fire/ Rest. Rest is kinda filler, but it worked while I was using it.

I've always wanted to try Scolipede (that was the one you meant, right?). he's fast and can really pack a punch with SD Megahorn if you don't want him to spike.
Virizion is UU on Pokemon Online, but I'm pretty those shouldn't really be brought up here.

Why Roselia when Roserade is available?


Scolipede is pretty nice. Fast, and with the SD, can be a true menace, and also toxic support with spikes and absorbing.
 

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