np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Jaetheho]

Lol Curtains and bluemon. HP Ice Terrakion is a perfect example of a strategy called lure-and-kill. It's called removing the #1 Counter to Terrakion to break through the opponent's team's defense. It helps in keeping your momentum, not being forced to switch out. Switching out to Rotom-W doesn't solve the problem of Gliscor walling Terrakion all day thanks to Poison Heal's ridiculous recovery. If Rotom-W comes in Gliscor switches, and walls Terrakion ad infinitum.

Give Terrakion HP Ice, and in an instant, there is nothing in the opponents team that can wall Terrakion. It has just become one of the most dangerous wall breaker / sweeper. This lure-and-kill strategy also helps to precisely wear out that 1 common counter for your other sweepers to take advantage. A Gliscor after stuffing an HP Ice wont be walling Excadrill too well, for example.

I hope you guys could understand this crucial battling concept. Otherwise, the amount of monsters you can use effectively would be restricted.

LURE and KILL?

i have a better idea. This is way better than hp ice lure.

bluemon sent out terrakion
Terrakion is floating on a baloon

the foe's heatran used earthpower
it did not affect bluemon's terrakion

Now we lure gliscor in right?

bluemon called terrakion back,
bluemon sent out wobbuffet

the opponent called heatran back,
the opponent sent out gliscor

Its trapped. now we do stuff

gliscor used swords dance
wobbuffet used encore.

After +6 boost, earthquake does about half. Just counter
What if it taunts you? Just switch out to a special attacker to scare it. Yea. That’s all that’s needed
What if it subs? Encore. Then switch out, and set up freely
What if it protects? Just do stuff again.

 

[Ewil]

It's incredible of how many pokémons go "mixed" to beat something in this gen, and the most part carring HP Ice just for beat Gliscor, this impressive mon that wall a lot of threats.

 

[Jaetheho]

Well that calc was with a borderline retarted ev spread so its highly unlikely it will happen in practice. Come on guys this is almost as bad as specs Machamp. +2 stone edge with balloon does more damage than hp ice. It has more coverage and frees up a move slot for the game ending rock polish. Plus you have a better item for countering Gliscor.

Specs machamp is really good. i sweeped once on a trick room team.

 

[Pocket]

Like dori have mentioned HP Ice Terrakion isn't a new concept. It's just coverage. During GSC Fire Blast was put on Snorlax to 2HKO Skarmory and Steelix as well as one-shotting Forretress. With those Steels gone, the opponent would find it pretty difficult to wall cursed up Double-Edges.

During RSE, HP Bug was a huge fad to deal with Celebi that walled a lot of things. Add HP Bug on Curse Swampert and now Celebi can't wall it anymore.

The more common the walls are the more effective these coverage moves will be. I admit that some Pokemon loses effectiveness, because of 3 reasons.

1) They can't afford to sacrifice a moveslot
2) It requires spreading out the EVs thin
3) Still gets walled by other mons

Mixed Metagross during DP is a good example. It can pack Grass Knot to take down Swampert, but it's still going to be cock-blocked by Skarmory, Forretress, and even Suicune. You can give it HP Fire, but then that means its losing Explosion / Bullet Punch / etc, and it would require a good amount of Sp Atk investment and Expert Belt / Life Orb to 2HKO Skarm. At this point this moveset is rather gimmicky.

Terrakion doesn't have those issues. With Gliscor out of the way, it can very well clean teams, or make holes for other physical sweepers to penetrate.

EDIT: bluemon96 - Although Wobbuffet can most certainly help teams set up, the scenario you mentioned isn't great. I am pretty sure that Gliscor can out-stall that Wobbuffet just by alternating Taunt + Swords Dance while you spam Counter. You can switch Wobbuffet out, but that leaves a perfectly alive Gliscor ready to wall Terrakion again. Doesn't sound like winning.

 

[Jaetheho]

and if you Really Really want to beat gliscor, run a scarf cloyster. beats dragonite too. with multiscale intact. nobody sees it coming

 

[blarajan]

LURE and KILL?

i have a better idea. This is way better than hp ice lure.

bluemon sent out terrakion
Terrakion is floating on a baloon

the foe's heatran used earthpower
it did not affect bluemon's terrakion

Now we lure gliscor in right?

bluemon called terrakion back,
bluemon sent out wobbuffet

the opponent called heatran back,
the opponent sent out gliscor

Its trapped. now we do stuff

gliscor used swords dance
wobbuffet used encore.

After +6 boost, earthquake does about half. Just counter
What if it taunts you? Just switch out to a special attacker to scare it. Yea. That’s all that’s needed
What if it subs? Encore. Then switch out, and set up freely
What if it protects? Just do stuff again.

Gliscor used Taunt. My god, learn to metagame.

bluemon96, please stop recommending mediocre Pokemon that require significantly more changes to your team than a simple moveslot adjustment on a Pokemon that has the moveslot to spare. Terrakion has amazing coverage and doesn't need the fourth moveslot. As Pocket says, a dead Gliscor allows Terrakion to have fun.

And ScarfWynaut, the entire idea is using HP Ice when Gliscor switches in (is lured in). You're not 2hkoing it by switching into Gliscor. That won't work and defeats the purpose. And I calced out the scenarios in this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3711946&postcount=1924

 

[Jaetheho]

Gliscor used Taunt. My god, learn to metagame.

bluemon96, please stop recommending mediocre Pokemon that require significantly more changes to your team than a simple moveslot adjustment on a Pokemon that has the moveslot to spare. Terrakion has amazing coverage and doesn't need the fourth moveslot. As Pocket says, a dead Gliscor allows Terrakion to have fun.

And ScarfWynaut, the entire idea is using HP Ice when Gliscor switches in (is lured in). You're not 2hkoing it by switching into Gliscor. That won't work and defeats the purpose. And I calced out the scenarios at a previous post, go take a look.

wobbuffet is not mediocre. i have been working ona warstory based on dugtrio and wobbuffet. hopefully after u read that, u can start using wobbuffet.

and u should stop recommending mediocre attacks too then. next, we are gunna be seeing hp ice conkeldurrs everywhere.

and i mentioned taunt in my blurb int there. just switch out then. or just start countering, or switch to a phazer. roar anyone? (to get rid of substitue if they have it)

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Ah sorry I missed out on the lure idea, I was thinking more of Terrakoin and Gliscor 1 on 1.

 

[blarajan]

So in essence, instead of using a 4x super effective move that will 2hko Terrakion's biggest counter on the obvious switch in and allows it to be, quite frequently, unchecked by the rest of your opponent's team, you'd recommend using Wobbuffet and Dugtrio to handle a Pokemon that beats Wobbuffet and Dugtrio without trying. Your argument is rather silly, actually, as after switching in Wobbuffet to beat Gliscor...Gliscor beats Wobbuffet. Your comment about Conkeldurr using HP Ice is actually relatively thoughtless as well, as Conkeldurr doesn't have the move slot to spare. The great part about Terrakion is that it doesn't suffer from 4 move slot syndrome. It's actually blessed with: I only need two moves the rest are filler syndrome. There's absolutely zero reason why one of the two filler moves at Terrakion's disposal can't be used to beat its greatest counter. Conkeldurr, even with HP Ice, would be unable to do something like that. I appreciate your arguments and would enjoy hearing them; please put atleast a modicum of thought in them before recommending a solution.

 

[Jaetheho]

terrakion needs rock polish to outspeed. he needs swords dance to get OHKOes. i dont see a spare moveslot. and also, not all gliscors beat wobbuffet. and not all gliscors use taunt. Having a situational counter like CS cloyster or wobb is equal to having hp ice on terrakion

 

[prem]

besides the fact that wobb doesnt beat gliscor in any sense of the world (almost all of them do run taunt, other ones you fail to beat anyway), scarf cloyster is rather uncommon and doesnt do a good job of luring in gliscor.

do you people understand what a LURE is? this isnt about what can beat gliscor, because we know terrakion isnt it. its about bringing in gliscor no something that can normally beat terrakion, and killing it with terrakion. gliscor doesnt care if a cloyster comes in, it will just switch out to a jirachi or something. also the sight of gliscor is far more common than terrakion and cloyster combined.

oh also youre idea of not having enough moveslots, rock polish terak can easily sweep weakened teams, while swords dance terak is actually quite fast, especially in a meta without many scarfers. it doesnt need the speed boost to sweep with swords dance because its already fast enough after you kill off the priority and lati

 

[Jaetheho]

u lure it in with terrkaion, then switch. now you get a free turn to shell smash on regular cloysters or anything. good prediction is key. not hp ice.

 

[blarajan]

I don't understand how it's a situational counter. Whenever a person encounters a Gliscor (who is like the 4th most used Pokemon now), they have to beat it if they want to sweep with Terrakion. If Terrakion can beat it, then it can win a lot easier. By luring it in, it takes a shit ton of damage. Choice Scarf Cloyster's fucking stupid, except in that one warstory where it was really funny.

Terrakion does not need both Rock Polish and Swords Dance. The reason Double Dance is standard is because TERRAKION'S TWO MOVESLOTS ARE FILLER. He can AFFORD to use both boosting moves. He doesn't NEED to. If your team has an Excadrill, you probably don't need Rock Polish. That sort of thing. If you're using a Sand team with Terrakion/Excadrill, Gliscor's obviously a problem. You kill it off, Excadrill sweeps. That sort of thing.

HP Ice Terrakion > Choice Scarf Cloyster...

 

[dori]

Let's look at it this way, if:

Rock Polish
Swords Dance
Close Combat
Stone Edge

was in fact the greatest unstoppable moveset ever then the following would be true:

It would be banned.
It would always be used.
It would be unstoppable.

But all 3 of those are not true.

Which means:

You are small minded because of one or all of the following:

You expect Terrakion to always sweep.
You're using it incorrectly.
You are doing one of the above so that means you aren't as competent at battling as you think.

Which leads to:

You should use Terrakion to soften the opposition, not outright destroy it.

If you use HPIce Terrakion then the following scenarios are in case:

You weaken Gliscors.
Gliscor can't come in on Excadrill anymore.
You sweep with Excadrill, not Terrakion.

Now for people who say "use other Pokemon to deal with Gliscor" then:

Gliscor's user has other Pokemon to deal with Pokemon that deals with Gliscors.

This leads to:

Actually playing the game of Pokemon.

 

[Jaetheho]

and if you have an excadrill on your team, u dont need hp ice. u just have to weaken it with stone edge until it is in KO range of +2 rock slide (like 30% or 40%) then, u get a clean sweep.

Hammering with stone edge > hp ice

 

[dori]

Why risk chance when you actually have a goal for your team and is capable of executing it? When you glance at team preview, you'll notice if Gliscor is the only thing stopping you. You can simply HPIce on the switch instead of risking missing a +2 Stone Edge, if you miss that and your balloon breaks, you now have 2 things completely walled by Gliscors. When you can avoid playing with fate, then you should. Unless you're one of those people who randomly just try to sweep with random shit and then end up losing to even more random shit.

Which means: having a plan > not having a plan.

 

[blarajan]

Orrrrrrrr we can guarantee the kill on Gliscor, not require Air Balloon on both Terrakion and Excadrill, and kill it? I'm not saying HP Ice is the only way to kill Gliscor...just that it's an effective way for Terrakion to lure its biggest counter and kill it to open holes in the opponent's team. You can't always guarantee you'll have time for set up, so that's a no brain required way of handling it. =/.

 

[Jaetheho]

do we have to use terrakion tho? i mean his job as a double dancer is so good that i would rather use someting like.... scrafty and hit in with ice punch on the switch.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Ok, so Terrakion needs stone edge and close combat right, and it likes swords dance for the power. So the only debatable move here is rock polish, to out speed things. I don't know about you, but I would like to sweep Latios, Excadrill, Thundurus, Starmie and Gengar, all of which are much more common then Gliscor, heck Latios alone is more common then Gliscor.

I could see this being used if you have particularly hard problem dealing with Gliscor, otherwise I would see rock polish being much more useful.

 

[Pocket]

Why are people arguing with a simple logic that blarajan, prem, and dori have been posting?
There is nothing to argue, but to nod in agreement or at least admit that they're not wrong. To admit that HP Ice Terra is a valid use of Terrakion. No body is saying which is better.

This leads to:

Actually playing the game of Pokemon.

This leads to: getting walled to death.

do we have to use terrakion tho? i mean his job as a double dancer is so good that i would rather use someting like.... scrafty and hit in with ice punch on the switch.

Scrafty doesn't work, because it doesn't really lure Gliscors in. Most players expect Ice Punch from Scrafty. Scrafty would instead be walled by Skarmory / Gyarados, and Excadrill / Terrakion would still be walled by Gliscor.

 

[Woodchuck]

Ok, so Terrakion needs stone edge and close combat right, and it likes swords dance for the power. So the only debatable move here is rock polish, to out speed things. I don't know about you, but I would like to sweep Latios, Excadrill, Thundurus, Starmie and Gengar, all of which are much more common then Gliscor, heck Latios alone is more common then Gliscor.

I could see this being used if you have particularly hard problem dealing with Gliscor, otherwise I would see rock polish being much more useful.

but you most often aren't getting both rp / sd up at the same time
besides, the main lure of double dancer is its versatility
it can kill offensive teams with rock polish, kill defensive teams with SD
What's the constant of both situations? Gliscor will switch into you.

well, HP Ice Terrakion also has versatility. It can kill Gliscor to allow your Excadrill to rape offensive teams, and it can own defensive teams with SD

to be honest I don't care what you guys think of HP Ice terrakion; the less people use it, the less likely someone will expect it when they bring in Gliscor.

 

[Davy Jones]

On another subject, how many dragon dances does Gyarados need to be able to KO most common gliscor sets with waterfall? WIth no DD's my gyara set is at 257 att.

There is no reason that Gyarados should ever have 257 Attack. With an Attack-neutral nature and no EV investment, Gyarados hits 286 Attack. The only reason you'd have less than that is if you have an Attack-lowering nature, imperfect IVs, or a level below 100. Are you sure that you've got the right number?

 

[Tobes]

How the fuck is this HP Ice on Terrakion argument still going on? HP Ice is good on Terrakion because it's the most reliable method for dealing with its most prominent counter, and it also allows it to act as a lure for Gliscor, allowing something like Excadrill to sweep. Are you all going to argue that HP Ice Landorus is bad? For fuck's sake I've used Technician HP Ice 60 Scizor as a lure for Gliscor (which it isn't too bad since Brave LO does ~75% min btw, and you could even argue that the Speed loss lets you use U-turn more effectively since you're usually going last).

Specific Hidden Powers for specific targets are pretty common, and you're deluding yourself if you think it's not effective to run them when they remove a sweeper's most common counter.

 

[Jaetheho]

Why are people arguing with a simple logic that blarajan, prem, and dori have been posting?
There is nothing to argue, but to nod in agreement or at least admit that they're not wrong. To admit that HP Ice Terra is a valid use of Terrakion. No body is saying which is better.



This leads to: getting walled to death.



Scrafty doesn't work, because it doesn't really lure Gliscors in. Most players expect Ice Punch from Scrafty. Scrafty would instead be walled by Skarmory / Gyarados, and Excadrill / Terrakion would still be walled by Gliscor.

Lol now SKARMORY walls terrakion. now what?

 

[Nkululeko]

How the fuck is this HP Ice on Terrakion argument still going on? HP Ice is good on Terrakion because it's the most reliable method for dealing with its most prominent counter, and it also allows it to act as a lure for Gliscor, allowing something like Excadrill to sweep. Are you all going to argue that HP Ice Landorus is bad? For fuck's sake I've used Technician HP Ice 60 Scizor as a lure for Gliscor (which it isn't too bad since Brave LO does ~75% min btw, and you could even argue that the Speed loss lets you use U-turn more effectively since you're usually going last).

Specific Hidden Powers for specific targets are pretty common, and you're deluding yourself if you think it's not effective to run them when they remove a sweeper's most common counter.

First of all Landorus has more Sp Atk than Gliscor, just sayin. And what I was saying is that I'd rather go full physical instead of mixing a terrakion to deal with a single pokemon. You have 5 pokemon and offensive synergy is just as important as defensive is. Some people seem to hate that logic, I get it. And Tobes, chill out bro, it's just a game.

Edit:

Yeah kay so like Nkululeko. Do you actually hear yourself?

1) The sole purpose of me including HP Ice on Terrakion is to take out Gliscor.
2) Kay Infernape.
3) HOW IS IT HINDERING TERRAKION'S ABILITY TO SWEEP O.o?
4) Aight kay so like. STAB Close Combat has like. 180 base power. STAB Stone Edge has like. 150 base power. Super Effective X-Scissor has like. 160 base power. Mmmm seems pretty important to me.
5) I was just saying Mienshao cause like, you know, it was mentioned.
6 and 7) Alright so like. Gliscor>Terrakion, right? Terrakion, return! I choose you Latios! HAHAHAHA NOW GLISCOR'S GONNA GET IT. Gliscor, return! Go, Ferrothorn! .... fuck, that didn't go well.
8) THE ONLY FUCKING PURPOSE IS TO FUCKING COUNTER THAT ONE FUCKING POKEMON WHO OTHERWISE BEATS YOU LEARN TO READ. IT DOESN'T NEED TO HURT ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE ITS STAB MOVES PROVIDE IT PERFECT NEUTRAL COVERAGE IN OU EXCEPT FOR TOXICROAK.
9) What better things are there save for beating your one hard counter?
10) Yeah so like 150 base power stone edge vs 160 base power x scissor. Reuniclus still kicks your ass.
11) Yeah so like. Refer to bullet 6/7.

The only viable reason one has to run X-Scissor on Terrakion is for Celebi. Every other Pokemon is hit for approximately the same by Close Combat or Stone Edge. X-Scissor is USELESS. Gliscor is DANGEROUS. HP Ice isn't the only option but IT LETS YOU BEAT GLISCOR. Gliscor = dead. Terrakion = sweep. Derp.

Ps, as others have said, a 30 att/def iv gives HP Ice.

To many caps, didn't read