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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I haven't run any calcs or anything, but i dont think azelf could break chansey anyway.
A Ghost can go on any team, spikes or otherwise.
No one contested that she is able to do it, just that being a Ghost type does not imply spikes in the slightest. Sure, if you use Spikes you might employ a Ghost for the purpose, but the reverse is not true.
A Ghost can go on any team, spikes or otherwise.
dori, I'd appreciate that when trying to make a point you sound like less of a dick. I generally prefer Psychic because I don't frequently find Chansey to be a problem, so I recommended Psychic. You can state that you find Psyshock to be better, and that's definitely reasonable. But..
no need to sound like an absolute cock.
Why not use psyshock? that is the real question...Chansey is not the only thing, there is also snorlax...he really doesnt have to state that psyshock is better because it already is.. with grass knot and flamethrower you find that those two hit harder super effective than psychic/psyshock ever will..lol and wheres your psychic arguement?
Idk whether your saying thats a little or alot..because that seems like ALOT for a "special sweeper" to do to a "special wall" who's spdef is rather through the roof and beyond and physical defense is amazing as well...and imagine if chansey took residual damage
Psyshock is a bad attack in my experience. It's only good for killing Chansey and (to a much lesser extent) Snorlax. Having Psyshock weakens you to Rhyperior, Donphan and Dusclops in particular. Yes two of them are hit SE by Grass Knot, but having GK instead of Thunderbolt leaves you walled by other Pokemon e.g. Victini, Houndoom, Empoleon (to some extent), etc. If it weren't because of Chansey, I'd probably have Psychic on my Azelf.
Psychic has extra base power, chance of SpD fall and attacks the generally less-invested side. I'm pretty confident there are more physically defensive Pokemon in the metagame than specially defensive, e.g. Pokemon like DS Mew is far more likely to be 252/252+ Bold than 252/252+ Calm.
Psychic has extra base power, chance of SpD fall and attacks the generally less-invested side. I'm pretty confident there are more physically defensive Pokemon in the metagame than specially defensive, e.g. Pokemon like DS Mew is far more likely to be 252/252+ Bold than 252/252+ Calm.
To me the power difference between Psyshock and Psychic is minimal. If Psychic was as powerful as Flamethrower / Thunderbolt, then the power difference becomes much more apparent.
Also Azelf is looking for a quick sweep - the 10% special defense drop isn't really a reason to use Psychic > Psyshock.
I find that Psyshock's ability to even break through Chansey is crucial in realizing its sweep. If there still was Wobbuffet to reliably dispatch Chansey, maybe Psyshock is unnecessary, but that is not the case.
The only valid argument to use Psychic > Psyshock is that there are lots of physical walls that would otherwise wall Azelf. However, I'd rather use coverage moves such as Shadow Ball or HP Water / HP Fighting to bypass those in order to have an answer for Chansey (which would otherwise halt Azelf's sweep).
I prefer HP Fighting since +2 LO HP Fighting should kill most tank Rhyperior anyways.
I am speaking in general terms. If blarajan's team is designed to exploit Chansey's presence, then Psychic is the way to go.
Also Azelf is looking for a quick sweep - the 10% special defense drop isn't really a reason to use Psychic > Psyshock.
I find that Psyshock's ability to even break through Chansey is crucial in realizing its sweep. If there still was Wobbuffet to reliably dispatch Chansey, maybe Psyshock is unnecessary, but that is not the case.
The only valid argument to use Psychic > Psyshock is that there are lots of physical walls that would otherwise wall Azelf. However, I'd rather use coverage moves such as Shadow Ball or HP Water / HP Fighting to bypass those in order to have an answer for Chansey (which would otherwise halt Azelf's sweep).
I prefer HP Fighting since +2 LO HP Fighting should kill most tank Rhyperior anyways.
I am speaking in general terms. If blarajan's team is designed to exploit Chansey's presence, then Psychic is the way to go.
Right, time for what I've been noticeing over the last few days:
1: From using Chansey, I've come to the conclusion that it's not broken. I can't keep it alive, status, and heal my team on an offense team, and it tends to be dead weight on defense. Maybe if I forgoed one of my moves for Softboiled as well, or focused less on support and more on being an obnoxious pink blob.
Ironically, I struggle a little with opposing Chansey, despite having ways to deal with them [Spikes+SR Shuffle with Zapdos, Trick, Superpower from Honchkrow]
Due to my experiances against Chansey, however, I'm unsure about it's placeing. Maybe I'm just doin' it wrong?
2:
Choice Specs Froslass is a monster. Specs Shadow Ball and Ice Beam dents more or less everything not named Chansey or Emploeon.
The remaining two moves I use are Trick... and Spikes. It's brilliant TrickSpecing something like Chansey, Gligar or Ferroseed, and then setting Spikes in their face, and then passing the Evolite to something that can't use it as well!
It's also a great revenge killer/check to Mismagius without a Sub, as many don't expect a OHKO from Shadow Ball due to their beefy Sp.Def.
Personally, I use this:
Froslass @ Choice Specs
Timid Nature
252 Sp.Atk/252 Spd/4 Sp.Def
Trick
Spikes
Ice Beam
Shadow Ball
3:
For some reason, there's been a spike in DD Kingdra last couple of days. I went from seeing none to seeing three in three battles. It's no problem for me, because I have physically bulky Roar Zapdos... but it's got to be doing something in the teir if it's showing up everywhere suddenly.
I can't really figure out the reason for this spike...
4:
Seen quite a few sand teams. They aren't much of an issue, except for 'Muttstache' as I call him, because I never recall his English name. Even then, he takes a good 75% from Honchkrow's LO Sucker Punch.
Just annoying seeing them increase in useage... I went to UU to get away from weather :/
5:
Also fought a Snow Cloak abuse Hail Team. It had Froslass and Glaceon, and the rest of the team basically existed to spread Paralysis. Froslass and Glaceon were both Substitute variations, and would basically sub until I either missed for got Paralysis, and then would spam Blizzards.
Needless to say, it's kinda like fighting a team of Sand Veil Garchomps without the bulk.
1: From using Chansey, I've come to the conclusion that it's not broken. I can't keep it alive, status, and heal my team on an offense team, and it tends to be dead weight on defense. Maybe if I forgoed one of my moves for Softboiled as well, or focused less on support and more on being an obnoxious pink blob.
Ironically, I struggle a little with opposing Chansey, despite having ways to deal with them [Spikes+SR Shuffle with Zapdos, Trick, Superpower from Honchkrow]
Due to my experiances against Chansey, however, I'm unsure about it's placeing. Maybe I'm just doin' it wrong?
2:
Choice Specs Froslass is a monster. Specs Shadow Ball and Ice Beam dents more or less everything not named Chansey or Emploeon.
The remaining two moves I use are Trick... and Spikes. It's brilliant TrickSpecing something like Chansey, Gligar or Ferroseed, and then setting Spikes in their face, and then passing the Evolite to something that can't use it as well!
It's also a great revenge killer/check to Mismagius without a Sub, as many don't expect a OHKO from Shadow Ball due to their beefy Sp.Def.
Personally, I use this:
Froslass @ Choice Specs
Timid Nature
252 Sp.Atk/252 Spd/4 Sp.Def
Trick
Spikes
Ice Beam
Shadow Ball
3:
For some reason, there's been a spike in DD Kingdra last couple of days. I went from seeing none to seeing three in three battles. It's no problem for me, because I have physically bulky Roar Zapdos... but it's got to be doing something in the teir if it's showing up everywhere suddenly.
I can't really figure out the reason for this spike...
4:
Seen quite a few sand teams. They aren't much of an issue, except for 'Muttstache' as I call him, because I never recall his English name. Even then, he takes a good 75% from Honchkrow's LO Sucker Punch.
Just annoying seeing them increase in useage... I went to UU to get away from weather :/
5:
Also fought a Snow Cloak abuse Hail Team. It had Froslass and Glaceon, and the rest of the team basically existed to spread Paralysis. Froslass and Glaceon were both Substitute variations, and would basically sub until I either missed for got Paralysis, and then would spam Blizzards.
Needless to say, it's kinda like fighting a team of Sand Veil Garchomps without the bulk.
First, of all, I am quite disappointed with the number of serious players on the Smogon UU ladder. The reason I even came to Smogon in the first place was because the competitive scene far exceeded anywhere else, though I don't really know what's going on nowadays. Maybe I'm missing something.
Anyway, I'm just now getting back into the game after a while, and after playing a bit today, my initial opinion is that Chansey is too broken for UU. I've found Chansey to be far more useful on a balance/offensive team than a stall team. The amount of stuff she can check just on sheer bulk is ridiculous. Something with base 5 defense should not be able to comfortably take a CB max attack Victini V-Create at full health. Not that she should be taking that hit, but you get the idea. Seriously, just slap her on an offensive team and you won't be disappointed.
Other than that, I'm really enjoying this new metagame. I was initially shocked at all the powerhouses that made their way into UU, thinking that they would break the meta wide open, but somehow everything seems to balance itself out. There are so many viable pokemon and strategies that I'm finding it a bit disappointing that I keep seeing the same teams over and over again, especially those hailhax ones. Still, its definitely more enjoyable to play in than the shitstorm that is OU.
Anyway, I'm just now getting back into the game after a while, and after playing a bit today, my initial opinion is that Chansey is too broken for UU. I've found Chansey to be far more useful on a balance/offensive team than a stall team. The amount of stuff she can check just on sheer bulk is ridiculous. Something with base 5 defense should not be able to comfortably take a CB max attack Victini V-Create at full health. Not that she should be taking that hit, but you get the idea. Seriously, just slap her on an offensive team and you won't be disappointed.
Other than that, I'm really enjoying this new metagame. I was initially shocked at all the powerhouses that made their way into UU, thinking that they would break the meta wide open, but somehow everything seems to balance itself out. There are so many viable pokemon and strategies that I'm finding it a bit disappointing that I keep seeing the same teams over and over again, especially those hailhax ones. Still, its definitely more enjoyable to play in than the shitstorm that is OU.
Dosn't the bolded statement disprove itself? If you keep seeing the same teams all the time, but loads of pokemon and styles are viable... dosen't that mean the opposite?
I've tried Chansey on offense, and I am dissapointd with it. That said, as I've said before, I've faced teams where I struggle agaist Chansey, and I've been more focused on Wish varients than Softboiled ones that just wall all day long.
But, yeah, UU is far more enjoyable than OU. Although I'm starting to want to ban Snow Warning just because of those stupid Para-Sub Sow Veil teams. If Garchomp got banned for Sand Veil Sub, speed and power, Froslass might wind up the same, especially if Chansey goes.
I swear, Sub / TWave / Spikes / Ice Beam Froslass in hail is one of the silliest things in the metagame. It has its counters, but it's also ridiculously annoying, not to mention effective. I'll probably nominate Snow Cloak for next round, and with it probably Sand Veil too.
I've yet to try Chansey on a more balanced team. Problem is it doesn't offer much. It's easy to get set up on, and a Pokemon behind a sub is difficult for an offensive team to weather without losses. It can't put up entry hazards either without losing a precious move (e.g. Wish without Protect), and it'll always be vulnerable to the types it doesn't have a status move for. I can't see it working alone, and I can't think of a good partner for it in a 2-man core either. I guess Slowbro is about as good a partner as it gets, but there're still Pokemon like Heracross who just go straight through ...
I've yet to try Chansey on a more balanced team. Problem is it doesn't offer much. It's easy to get set up on, and a Pokemon behind a sub is difficult for an offensive team to weather without losses. It can't put up entry hazards either without losing a precious move (e.g. Wish without Protect), and it'll always be vulnerable to the types it doesn't have a status move for. I can't see it working alone, and I can't think of a good partner for it in a 2-man core either. I guess Slowbro is about as good a partner as it gets, but there're still Pokemon like Heracross who just go straight through ...
The problem set for me seems to be:
Sub/T-Wave/Blizzard/Coverage
You wouldn't be running Sub + T-Wave Froslass unless it was in the hail anyway.
On an addittional note, banning Snow Cloak would soft-ban Froslass, who is basically the main issue. Glaceon and Mamoswine are not, they can't abuse Paralysis, and are also both slow. Glaceon lacks a movepool, and Mamoswine can't abuse Blizzard.
In all honesty, a Snow Cloak ban would be rather pointless. The problem is like with Sand Veil and Garchomp, it lies with Froslass.
Which is also incredibly effective outside of Hail as well. Although, people seem more prepared for my TrickSpecs Froslass now...
Hell, despite a limited movepool, Froslass can:
Abuse Hail, with Sub/T-Wave/Blizzard and Snow Cloak
Use both Choice Scarf and Specs with brilliant efficency, and can trick both
Lay Spikes with relative ease
Using it's Base 115 Speed, also known as, I outspeed virtually everything, it can take down something with it with Destiny Bond.
It has a rather nasty LO set with Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, Hidden Power [Fighting], and a filler, possibly Destiny Bond.
Seriously, I'm starting to think Froslass might be the suspect... especially if Chansey goes. [Who can wall Froslass all day long]
I think Froslass has 110 base Speed.
Has anyone tried a Slowbro without Slack Off? He seems to get enough health back by switching around, and it would free up a moveslot...
Has anyone tried a Slowbro without Slack Off? He seems to get enough health back by switching around, and it would free up a moveslot...
Uh yeah, could we all agree to nominate Snow Cloak next round please? I don't see how anyone could defend that troll of an ability, especially on the extremely dangerous Pokemon it is given to currently.
Chansey/Zapdos is probably the best pairing. Chansey/Weezing, Chansey/Spiritomb, Chansey/Mew are also all good pairings, although they have slight weaknesses that need to be covered by a third Pokemon.
Anyway, yes, the metagame is going to continue to be kind of bad until we get an official round 3 going. I'm getting tired of trying to test teams and running into shit like slaking/cofagrigus cores.
Chansey/Zapdos is probably the best pairing. Chansey/Weezing, Chansey/Spiritomb, Chansey/Mew are also all good pairings, although they have slight weaknesses that need to be covered by a third Pokemon.
Anyway, yes, the metagame is going to continue to be kind of bad until we get an official round 3 going. I'm getting tired of trying to test teams and running into shit like slaking/cofagrigus cores.
I'm really not a fan of ability bans, but this should be OK. Glaceon and Mamoswine both have alternate abilities, but I don't like the idea of actually banning Froslass (does it have a second ability?). Can't we just ban Snow Warning?
Froslass only has Cursed Body through DW. Banning Snow Warning is basically banning Abomosnow, because who would use Soundproof Abomosnow?
Exactly, you can't ban Snow Warning. Not only would it be removing Snover from RU (where he really isn't close to being deemed broken yet), annoying every Hail player there, but it would be assuming the ability is broken without even testing Snover in UU. Ban aboma if the condition is the real problem.
On the Froslass stuff, I think the only issue is Snow Cloak Froslass correct? I'd hate to see her gone from UU completely, if I had to use cursed body froslass I would, because I don't use her for her ability in hail. I use froslass for her great speed and utility movepool. She's a great mon, and shouldnt be kicked out of UU, just get rid of the snow cloak, its not like she can take ANY hit at all.
Froslass without snow cloak is just a fast pokemon with a utility movepool that will die to any hit. By herself, she isnt broken, just ban snow cloak, mamo and glaceon have other abilities as well.
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